Struggling With Play Time

[Animal Freak]

We just recently got back from the vet. It went way quicker than expected. We barely got home before they called and said everything was done. We did end up getting some bloodwork done on Frost so that took another half an hour, but that was about how long it took to get there anyway.

Both cats got a clean bill of health. They checked what organs they could and said everything seemed fine. They said there's nothing wrong with Frost for him to be not eating or anything, but he had lost weight since his last visit. Of course, his last visit he was ten pounds. This time he was nine. When I checked on our scale he was eight though I'm not sure how accurate our scale is.

They do think Ash has some minor arthritis in his back legs and gave us some glucosamine which he's been on for UTIs and probably should have been given every day anyway. However, they both did great for their grooming. Apparently Frost was worse than Ash which is a bit surprising, but no sedation was needed for either of them.

Ember is extremely agitated. I think she enjoyed her short-lived solitude. When we came back after dropping them off she seemed a bit wary and as if she didn't know what was going on, but she quickly adjusted to the idea of being an only cat. With the boys back, she's been very tense especially with Ash and took a little slap at him, but she's most just sniffed them and stared them down. We did give them some of the Rescue Remedy this morning. Hard to say if it helped in the slightest.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I always find that it isn't the hiss but what happens after (how they act). If they go back to acting normal (walking around like normal, going everywhere they usually go etc) then it isn't too worrying. But it is when they change behavior that is when it says something is going on.

Kneading is good but we don't want him to be doing it on your incisions.

Frost is feeling unsettled for some reason. It could be something Ember has done. It could be human emotions (stress). It could be other animals outside. We just need to build his confidence and make him feel comfortable and more secure. But overall, he and they are doing well.

Yes, that behavior of Frost probably does cause some stress to Ember and then she redirects that frustration, stress etc on poor Ash.

But the more they are together and the more they don't get into it the more confident and comfortable and secure they will feel. And a confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked.

I think they are doing really well, no fighting is success.

I guarantee Frost loves you from what you have told me. He may be a little envious of Ember and the attention she gets from you. I have one that gets a little envious. Using food and love and play and height and warm comfy bedding and all the things we talked about will help him be confident and secure. And that should help reduce the acting out. But if it is just hissing it isn't too bad.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I am so glad the vet visit went well.

If you see any potential "situation" (staring, etc) try to distract in a positive way if possible. Call their name (not yell) or offer play or offer treats etc. Anytime a situation is diffused it is a positive and it builds trust.

I hope Ash's arthritis gets better.

 

[Animal Freak]

It's hard to believe Frost could be lacking confidence. He never hesitates in doing anything except walking across my stomach and I think that's because I've pushed him away so many times. I don't really set out a time to pet the cats. They come to me and I pet them. Frost, however, always wants to walk on my stomach. It wouldn't be so bad if he could do it quickly and get it over with, but instead he takes half an hour (Exaggerating. Maybe.) and I end up pushing him off because it hurts. And then he kneads on my stomach when he does get comfortable and that, too, hurts.

I've wondered if Ember could have done something to him, but they normally get along. The only times Ember has ever been even slightly aggressive towards him were after he gets a bath, but even then it's nothing like how she is with Ash. And they haven't had a bath in a while. So I can't say I've seen her do anything except occasionally try to get him to play.

If I see Ember staring Ash down, I call her name. I don't yell, but I use a warning tone. Often times she gets the message and backs off. Sometimes it's a bit difficult. Then I'll usually try playing with her, but she's a tough one. She won't even look at the toy unless it's directly in front of her face and even then she's hesitant to play.

Right now the biggest problem I have that I want to fix is that Ember is still bullying Ash when I'm feeding them. It's not as bad as it used to be, but her actions have finally been getting to him. He's become more wary of her in these times and will often flinch back when she approaches him. I've no idea what's setting her off other than his own nervousness. She'll walk right up to him, sniff him, be perfectly fine, and then turn around and slap him. It's not just one slap either. She'll sit back on her haunches and basically box him. She hasn't hurt him, but he's unsettled.

Also, on the topic of what I originally created this thread for, Ember has been playing more and more. I'm very happy with her progress. However, the boys are playing less. I haven't been pushing Ash since I didn't know what was wrong him and didn't want to put him in pain. I figured I'd wait until the glucosamine has had a chance to help him before trying again. Frost, however, isn't playing as much either. It's a bit strange though it's not a huge difference. It's always been on and off with him. He'll play with a few seconds, lay down in the middle of the floor so I have to move him to be able to move the toy, and then get up and play for a few seconds again. He still plays for a few seconds, but not quite as often. Instead, you see him sitting there just watching idly. As if the toy holds no interest to him. Again, it's not a huge difference. Sometimes I wonder if I'm not just imagining things, but I'll move the toy rapidly like he tends to like and he just lays there.

 

[calicosrspecial]

It is possible that he still has a bit of uncertainty because Ember did get "funny" with him before. So he is a bit cautious. BUT it isn't fighting so they respect where the line is.

How do you view Ash's confidence?

Great that you distract Ember if she is staring at Ash. Play is best. Food can work also. Calling her name is good too. Anything to avert a negative encounter. That will help build trust and confidence in Ash.

Yes, cats can sense weakness/lack of confidence and can then bully. Because they can see prey in that behavior. Again, if you can distract in any way it should be helpful. Then if Ash is more confident and trusting he should give off a non-prey vibe and be less of a target. Judging by your post I think you know exactly what I mean. Which is great because I am not sure I am explaining it all that well.

GREAT that Ember is playing more!! Totally understandable on Ash. Hopefully he plays better and can play (and wants to). Frost does sound tough. Just keep trying different toys and making them act like prey. Sometimes fast and up in the air works for some cats, sometimes slow and on the ground in halting movements. Have the toy go around bends, to go out of sight. It just depends. Some cats like birds, some like mice.

Does Frost look out of the window? React to birds flying by? Or at squirrels? Watch how they move and see how he reacts to them. Then have the toy try to replicate their movements. Just keep trying everything.

Confidence is play but it also is height and love and food and warm comfy beds etc. Cat trees, cat shelving, scratching posts all give ownership and confidence. Getting the cats to go high can be very helpful.

 

[Animal Freak]

It's honestly a little hard to say how confident Ash is. I have to start paying more attention to his tail position, but he spends most of his day in the storage room on the cat stand. I preferred the cat stand in the dining room since they were still out with us (and it was easier for my photography) but my mom wanted to put it in the back room. Now he pretty much stays out there except for meal times, play time despite not playing, and a couple of times to get attention. He's a fairly laid back cat, but he's not like Frost who just takes everything in stride. I would say he has confidence, but not enough to fight back. When it comes to fight or flight, he definitely chooses flight.

I understand what you mean entirely. Cats react to fear. A fearful cat makes an easy target. Especially when the other cat has a lack of security. They rely on those instincts that tell them when to flee, when to fight, and when to hunt. I'll try to remember to keep an eye on them and see if I can find any hesitancy or anxiety.

Honestly, now that I think about it, Frost is the only one who doesn't care about the window. If we open one up, he'll lay in it, but he's on the cat stand the least. That's Ash's favorite spot. He loves just laying up there and taking a nap as well as watching the wildlife. Ember doesn't care as much for the cat stand as Ash, but she gets up there and she does love watching the birds and squirrels. Those two sit there and chirp at the animals outside though Ember's is kind of broken sounding. Frost prefers the cat stand in my room which is also by a window, but I normally keep it closed. It kind of seems like Frost has less of a prey drive. Ash has one, but it's harder to get it to kick in. Ember basically relies on all of those instincts that a feral would need including hunting and fight or flight.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Ash doesn't avoid any areas though, correct?

It makes sense that Frost isn't that interested in play if he is not all that interested in the animals outside. Getting the hunting instinct back would be helpful. How to do though..........

Just keep trying to distract before anything negative can happen (a stare, hiss, growl, swat, etc). That should help Ash be more confident. This really goes a long way in building confidence and trust. Ash should feel less threatened by Ember if she doesn't do anything negative to him.

 

[Animal Freak]

No. He doesn't spend much time in my room, but I don't think he avoids it. It's never been his favorite room though he does go through phases of laying in my bed during the day if he can't get to my mom's bed.

Frost has always been a bit weird with his play. I can't say he's ever been able to catch a mouse though he had shown interest. Playing with him, I've noticed he doesn't play like the other two. With them, they wait and watch and you can normally tell when they're going to pounce because they flatten themselves against the floor and wiggle their haunches. Frost sometimes does this, but often just launches himself across the floor with no warning. And it's funny to watch because it's more of a rapid army crawl. I swear his stomach doesn't even leave the floor.

I don't really know what to do during meal times though. I have my back to them and it's all rather quiet. She doesn't hiss or growl or anything. The few times I have seen it beginning to end, I still couldn't predict it. The situation is always a bit tense, but I don't want to prevent her from sniffing him. Then she just starts slapping him. The only thing I can think of that could be causing that is his nervousness. It's hard to build confidence in him when I don't know if he can play without being in pain and he's honestly fine in every other situation. It's just while I'm preparing their dinner that he gets nervous which is because she used to attack him in this time. She stopped with the full blown attacks, but he lost some of his confidence.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Good that Ash doesn't avoid any areas.

Interesting. His hunt is very unique.

Well, if she attacks less he will build confidence over time at feeding time. Just do your best, try to occupy her time and attention leading up to feeding if possible. Feed her first. Just anything to distract her so that Ash gets a non-event eating experience. I know it is hard. But you must be doing something right since it has gotten better.

 

[Animal Freak]

That it is. Frost is an entertaining cat to watch for sure.

I always try to play with them right before feeding. The only thing I can think of to keep her away from him is locking her up in my room just for the time that it takes to feed them. She gets fed in there anyway and it takes less than five minutes.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I never want to take territory away from a cat unless it is absolutely necessary. So I personally would not lock her away or anything. We always want to make experiences as positive as possible.

Does Ember immediately eat when the food is put down or does she focus on Ash etc and then after that eat?

 

[Animal Freak]

I wouldn't want to, but if I did it would be for a couple of minutes a day for maybe a week or so. I've put the up in there before and she doesn't like it by herself, but it doesn't mind it in the least when I'm there with her. Well, unless she hears something.

I started separating them because she was going after him while he was eating and he started showing aggression towards Frost which is highly unusual. So Ash and Frost get fed in two different places in the kitchen and Ember gets fed in my room. I intended on bringing her back into the kitchen once I got rid of the tension while I was preparing the meal. There's no problems when I'm putting the bowls down. They all know where to go and run to their spots pretty much immediately. I was going to move her into the dining room but she runs off and I don't really want to fight with her.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Oh, I didn't realize they weren't eating together now.

It really is a balancing act. I always try to balance any negative encounters with any perception of a negative. So I want to reduce the risk of a negative encounter but I don't want a cat to feel isolated or punished or anything negative. So I tend to distract and if that doesn't work feed first and have them separated by distance and sight (around a corner). Things like that.

If a cat is food motivated it helps A LOT. Helps top diffuse any potential tension. And anytime a negative encounter is avoided it is a positive and builds trust and confidence.

I am highly confident you know how to do it and to do it in the best way.

 

[Animal Freak]

Yes, it's a little bothersome getting all the bowls and taking them back, but it seemed better than letting her attack him. I would like to get to the point where they can be fed in the same room, but I'm wary of doing so until Ember isn't slapping Ash. Ash occasionally starts growling over his food and Ember is sensitive to that.

Frost is very treat motivated, but not as into human food as one would expect. Ash is rather particular. It depends on what he's offered and the mood he's in. Sometimes he decides he doesn't want treats after a brushing. He loves his UTI treats (sometimes growls over them), but he's only allowed to have two a day. Ember loves food, but again it depends on the food and the situation as well as her mood. She likes cat tests, but doesn't love them. She prefers human food.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Yes, you are right. It is better to have no encounter than a negative one.

They are together at times when they are with you so that is a positive (and something I call "getting love"). So anytime they can smell each other or see each other and feel comfortable and avoid any negativity it is a positive. The more encounters that are neutral or positive the more trust is built. Doesn't matter if it is food, play, height or love. The objective is to show the cats that the other is not a threat and is something good (or at least not bad).

 

[Animal Freak]

So my mom did admit that she locked Ember up while preparing their dinner while I was gone. Honestly, I was considering it to give Ash a chance to regain his confidence. And it was the first night in a while that nothing happened. I also forget to spray the At Ease.

However, I've come to notice something. Ember only seems to act warily/aggressively when Ash is in the kitchen or storage room (they're attached). He was crouched by the cabinets and she was in the entrance just standing there, staring at him. Then he took off. She gave chase, but there was no hissing, no growling. He got up the cat stand and she didn't even try. It was, overall, half hearted. I made her back off, but went she back to staring shortly after while he sat in the doorway of the storage room. I tried play, but sure wouldn't budge and eventually walked away from me. I picked Ash up and brought him in the living room so he wouldn't be so trapped and it was like all the problems vanished. There was still some tension, but she walked up to him, sniffed him, no problem.

 

[calicosrspecial]

How is his body language in the kitchen/storage room vs the living room?

Is there only one way in one way out in the kitchen/storage room? That is where most of the "attacks" happened, correct?

Very normal when a cat "takes off" ( acting like prey) the other cat's instinct take over (chase).

Typically we build confidence in a "problem" area. It would be great if he would play in there but I know play is difficult. Feeding without a negative encounter is helpful. Being comforting to him in there (so he feels secure could help (if you can safely and also if you can get him to purr safely). Sometimes those "traffic jam" areas are tough as there is not a lot of room typically. If there is any way of giving a vertical escape route (cat shelving etc) that could be helpful. But that is often impossible.

And try to continue building their trust in the living area if at all possible (avoiding any potential for a negative encounter if possible). To build a safe positive association.

I would also do some scent swapping with Ember's scent when he is in the kitchen/ storage area. And if you can get something that he can get his scent on in there (scratching post, bedding) that could help him feel more confident in that area.

 

[Animal Freak]

I can't say I've noticed anything in particular in his body language while in those areas. No one typically spends time in the kitchen other than when I'm preparing their food. The storage room is where the cat stand is now and he spends most of the day on that and he seems perfectly relaxed up there. He likes laying on that as well as a cat bed that's out there on top of our old dryer which sits in front of the window next to the cat stand. Ember quite likes the bed as well.

Yeah, there's a fairly large entrance going into the kitchen (not quite open concept, but larger than a regular door frame. Don't know what to call it. An archway without the arch.) and then there's a door going out into the storage room. They can't get any further than that. There's a door we keep shut because we don't want them getting in the basement. He likes being back there, but I think he gets himself stuck with no where to go. The living room only has one way in and out too, but it's probably at least twice as big as the one going into the kitchen. Plus, if one feels unsafe, they can jump up on the couch and get into the dining room from there.

It seems like most of the day time attacks happen in that area. At night, you never know where they are. I think Ash startles her at night though. I know they have great vision and whatnot, but he's a dark cat and he goes running through the house in the middle of the night quite frequently. So most attacks during the day without Ash getting a bath typically seem to happen in the kitchen, but they're technically fewer in number. I'm not sure if that makes any sense. It's kind of hard to explain.

I can try to play with them in there. It kind of concerns me because it's tile floors and they aren't all that graceful. Especially Ember with her backflips. However, last night Frost was the only one I could get to play. I don't have a problem with trying to play with them in the kitchen or giving him attention in there though. I have no fear of any of them doing anything to hurt me and being nearby means I can offer Ash some protection. I also might try to bring Ember into the dining room for dinner to get her a bit closer. If it ends peacefully, I can find a place for her in the kitchen as well.

 

[calicosrspecial]

If you think they m,ay get hurt then please do not play with them in there. Just use food and love.

Just keep working with them in areas they get along. The more they get along together (wherever that may be) the more trust will be built between them. And the more confident Ash gets the less likely it will be that Ember messes with him.

Maybe the kitchen is just the history between them. What you wrote does make sense but nothing obvious sticks out at me other than the location triggers a memory of prior attacks and therefore causes a more cautious attitude which leads to the risk that he looks more fearful so looks more like prey.

Just take it slowly moving Ember's eating. We don't want to move too quickly.

We want a cat to stand up for themselves and not use us as a crutch. It is hard I know and we do need to step in at times but we don't always want to provide protection as we want the cat to be able to have it inside of them.

Just take things slow. If they are together in peace even for a short time it will build confidence and trust between them. When Ash gets more confident she should stop attacking him (everywhere).

 

[Animal Freak]

I've been doing half their play time in the kitchen and not letting it get too it off hand. No back flips for Ember in there. Otherwise the most that happens is they slide a little which they ought to be used to by now. They've run through there plenty of times. Ash seems to be very intrigued by the toy in there since it moves differently on the tile than it does on carpet, but he's still not wanting to play. He chased it a couple of times.

I also brought Ember back into the kitchen, but several feet away. She seems sightly anxious and will look over her shoulder at him, but is willing to eat and does not attack. In fact, we didn't have a single incident yesterday. Well, except when Frost hissed at Ember which I'm not exactly happy about, but that was all it was. Just a hiss.

While irrelevant to this topic, I wanted to say I'm quite pleased with Ash's progress with the dog. He's walking right by her without an issue and even flopped down almost on top of her to get some petting. Now my only problem with him is that he still won't let be brush behind his legs. I get away with a few seconds, but I can tell he's starting to get a knot back there and I can't get it. He hissed at me which, of course, caused Ember to hiss at him. I don't consider it an incident though since it's kind of expected and I'm just happy she isn't immediately attacking. I did forget his medicine last night. I'm not sure if one night would send him back to square one or if it's simply not working. He wouldn't let me mess with his tail either even if I only moved it an inch. I ran my fingers gently over his back end and legs with the same result. He doesn't like being messed with back there anyway, but he isn't usually so vocal.