Struggling With Play Time

[calicosrspecial]

Cats are definitely unique but it is great that you know what gets each of them going. That is really important, to find the right movements. It is all about building confidence and of course getting some exercise. You are doing a great job with them!!

Is Frost a good weight? We don't want a cat losing weight unless they are a little heavy. We need to watch this. Sometimes when they are uneasy or lacking confidence they act out (tormenting Ember) and or change other behavior ( more withdrawn, sleeping, eating patterns, avoiding places, staying low etc).

Always good to rule out medical then we can just focus on building confidence and getting them comfortable. Confidence to me really is key. Also, remember, cats can take on our emotions so any little uptick in stress can affect cats. It can be subtle but it can have an impact to cause them a bit of unease. I know it is hard sometimes but we always want to try to be as calm and confident as possible (and hopefully the cats can help us de-stress).

 

[Animal Freak]

Thanks. I love them and animals in general. I would love to open my own shelter sometime in the future, but if I can't handle a few cats, I'll be doomed with a shelter full of them. But I'd like to give them a good home either way. They are my children and they deserve the best.

I can't say I'm positive about his weight. He's supposed to be a Napoleon which I had read to be more like six pounds (I'm assuming this meant the short-legged ones anyway and they're not. If they're even Napoleons.), but both boys got well over this with Ash being eleven pounds and Frost being ten pounds. The vet hadn't said anything about them being overweight at this. However, Frost hasn't been to the vet in a while. But he went down to eight pounds and is now back up to nine so he's not as bad as he had been.

It's hard to see Frost as lacking confidence. I hate to say anything even slightly bad about him and wouldn't go as far as saying he's an idiot or anything, but he can be a bit dense and I have never known him to being anything but totally calm and confident except now with his tormenting of Ember and one occasion where he was sitting on my lap a few years back and something spooked him. He got scared really bad then and tore me up a bit on his way off my lap. Well, not counting the couple of moves he's gone through which one could only expect he'd be nervous during and he did pretty good with the transitions. He's the perfect epitome of the saying "curiosity killed the cat." Sometimes I'm afraid it will. Really, he doesn't even seem to understand cat language. If another cat will growl, he'll go approach them.

I think I'm getting better with my anxiousness. I really am a nervous, anxious person in general, but I don't work myself up so much over their little spats. In the three years we've had Ember, there has yet to be bloodshed which makes me feel a little better. Either she's not really trying to hurt them or their fur does a good job at protecting them. I was a bit nervous a few days ago though it had nothing to do with them and it didn't seem like they noticed or cared.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Let me just say first that I think you are awesome!! You obviously love animals and your cats but you are also very good with them. You have great instincts and knowledge.

At least he has gained weight back. It could just be stress. The vet will help us understand what might be causing it. Always good to rule out medical as we can work on behavioral.

Frost does sound confident generally. I just wonder about the tormenting. We always want to watch their body language. How they walk around, if they avoid any areas, walk cautiously in places. Any changes. Anything that might suggest some unease. Has there been any change in the house? To coincide with his behavior towards Ember? It is like being a detective, trying to search out the clues as to what might have changed. It can be an animal outside, workers around the house, stress levels inside the house, things like that. It can be something we don't even notice but that can cause some unease as cats are creatures of habit. So changes can affect them. They can become territorially insecure. It really takes some detective work.

How long was Frost with his mom?

Frost sounds like a very normal cat to me. Actually they all do.

We do want to encourage positive interactions so distracting before something negative is always good to shift a potential negative encounter into a positive. Also, we want to try to associate the cats with good things (we usually use food and play). So we want them to think of something positive and not worry about the other cat being a threat when they see each other. So the more they are together without something negative happening the more trust and confidence will be built between them.

Yes, if the cats wanted to hurt the other one they could. The fact they haven't is because they don't want to. Cats have dust-ups. But as long as they know the where the line is and they don't cross it isn't too worrisome. We always want to limit any negative encounters by distracting with something positive if possible but the more positive encounters they have the more trust they will build with each other.

I am so glad you are doing better with being anxious. Cats do take on our emotions so that will be helpful but it is also great for your own happiness. Cats can help us as much as we help them. It really is a wonderful relationship. Don't worry, I think you are doing a much better job with your cats than you think.

 

[Animal Freak]

Thank you. It means a lot to hear someone else thinks I'm doing all right. Especially with all these things happening all on top of each other. I'm not at home right now, but my mom hasn't said anything bad has happened and she normally keeps me up to date so I'm assuming it's all remained fairly calm.

I can't really think of any changes. Their food is the same. I recently changed litters but we do that frequently and this was not that long ago. The problems have been going on longer. And really... It's Frost. If it was Ash, it would be easier because he's more sensitive. Ember could have done something to cross a line. But Frost? He was the first to accept the dog, was nearly unfazed by us moving, and was fairly calm when we took him and Ash to my cousin's house while we went on vacation once. He even let their kid dress him up. Which was horrible. I was ticked when I found out. Really, that whole thing was a mistake. Oh, and one of my brother's ex-girlfriend's had a small child who she brought over once. The kid totally grabbed Frost and carried him upside down. The cat did nothing. So for something to be bothering him? It's hard to believe or think of what it could be. Not to mention all the big changes are no longer new. We've been living in this house for over a year and we got the dog almost exactly a year ago.

And they get along most of the time. They all three play in the same room and they used to eat side by side. I only stopped because of the issues between Ember and Ash. I won't say they're all best friends and totally inseparable, but they get along. Ember is kind of the outcast among the cats and that's not to say they dislike her. But you can kind of tell that she wasn't part of the original group.

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are welcome. You really are doing a good job. We are really just fine tuning here.

Thank you for the additional information about Frost. It is confounding. Sometimes it is really not obvious. This i one of those cases. Just keep your eye on any changes in body language or movements. It could be something outside, a feral marking, etc. Just keep playing and building confidence and associating with good things. When we can't find the source that usually will help anyway.

Yes, the key is they get along most of the time. That is why I am not all that worried. Cats have dust-ups.

Cats are also on different parts of the spectrum for socializing. Some like other cats more than others. Etc. We just have to work with their personalities.

Please keep me up on how things are going and always feel free to ask any questions any time.

 

[Animal Freak]

I will definitely keep an eye on him as well the other two. I don't want to have medical problems, but I'm kind of hoping it isn't something to do with Ember again either. I have to admit, she's brought a lot of tension into the household. That's not to say she's a bad cat, but her instincts are a lot sharper than the boys' and she lacks confidence. Maybe she got that from me. She does kind of act like me other than how demanding she is...

Your help is greatly appreciated and I'll let you know if anything happens, but I'm not going to be home until Friday so I won't know much unless my mom tells me. Then I'll be able to watch them myself and I am more observant as well as more familiar with what they do and how they act.

 

[calicosrspecial]

We will work to build Ember's confidence. Increasing confidence through play solves a lot of issues. Play then feed. It replicates the Hunt, Capture, Kill, Eat instincts.

Anytime we add a cat it can be disruptive. Cats are creatures of habit and like routines. So any change can cause issues. Some cats have more charisma with other cats than others. It just depends.

Don't worry, we'll improve things. I have a lot of confidence in your abilities.

I am happy to help, I'll be with you for as long as needed. I hope you have a good time away and travel safely. I will look for your future posts.

 

[Animal Freak]

I came back home last night. It's a relief. Despite all the issues, there's nowhere I'd rather be than with all these troublemakers.

So far, no big issues. Ember seemed a little jumpy when I got home. Ash's going crazy didn't help matters. He managed to jump over half way up the curtains. Not something I've seen him do before. His running about made her tense, but she didn't attack. There have been small problems while I make their dinner. It's nothing big. In fact, no one makes a sound. I wouldn't know it was happening if it wasn't for the sudden sounds of shifting. I don't know why she's doing it, but she just boxes him around a bit before walking away. He's become a bit nervous around her too, but I'm hoping that's something he'll get over as she backs off.

Something happened in the middle of the night. I don't know what. I heard yowling and then hissing and then nothing at all. By the time I could get out of bed and pull the flashlight up on my phone, nothing was happening. Frost and Ember were in the hall, Frost sniffing her. She seemed a bit agitated, but her tail wasn't puffed up like usual. Ash was sitting on the arm of the couch. He seemed calm, but I hadn't put my glasses on and so couldn't really see, and he jumped away from me when I approached him. However, he let me pet him after that and everyone seemed relatively calm with just a bit of tension in Ember so I went back to bed. No other issues.

Today, right before we had to leave to go to the eye doctor, Ash got poop stuck to him and we couldn't get it out so we had to wash his back end. Ember, of course, became very tense and it didn't help that he went to my room which is her safe room. However, I didn't hear any fights and, while I do not know what happened while we were gone, Ember seems perfectly relaxed now.

Frost did hiss at Ember earlier when I was pushing him out of the pantry. He turned around and she happened to be standing there and he simply hissed at her and walked away. I gave him a sharp tap on the back to let him know that that wasn't okay, but did nothing else. We're getting a vet appointment to get him checked out as well as get Ash's back legs shaved and looked at.

 

[Lalka]

Hi,
About play time: My two almost senior cats (mother/daughter) can tolerate each other but have never been close. These days i am the one being exhausted after playing with my cats (mom (Pie) is overweight, the daughter (Bee) is a very nervous/shy cat recovering from health issue). Sometimes they just lay down and wait for me to put the toys close enough so they can stretch their paws to reach it... Recently, i ordered a petfusion scratcher online (they love it btw)....it came in a way too large box so half of it was filled with a very long strip of large brown paper. I left it all piled up on the floor and they both started to run, jump and try to hide in it. One month later...its all shredded and very flat. They cannot hide in it anymore but they still like to rest together on it and love when i play with them on top of it. Best toy ever!! Now i need to find where to buy more paper ><.

Dont give up...keep trying. The brown paper being the biggest hit so far, they also like the yeowww banana (used more as a comfort toy for my shy girl), the da bird wand and only Pie like the bergan star chaser (its still good because she play with it by herself). Good luck

 

[Animal Freak]

Thanks for the suggestions. They're currently playing with a broken wand toy. So far it's been their favorite. I've been able to get them playing, but they still don't play for long so I'll be looking for toys that they like even better. Preferably one that isn't broken and I don't have to worry about if it gets left on the floor.

I'm glad that you found something to bring your cats together though, at this point, I'd be happy to take "tolerant." I have noticed that cats seem to like everything they're not supposed to though. Boxes, plants, broken toys, bags, etc. It figures they'd like something as simple as a strip of paper. I guess that's what's so great about cats. They enjoy the simple things in life.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Hi,

I am so sorry for the delayed response. It has been hectic around here.

It sounds like everything is going pretty well. There are some minor dust-ups but it doesn't sound like anything major AND they seem to be respecting each other and knowing where the line is which is great.

Any time another cat gets a little wild or anxious it can influence the others. Cats take on human's emotions and they do take on other cat's emotions as well. But it sounds like they all behaved well.

The middle of the night incident again wasn't too bad. Again they seemed to know where the line is and not to cross it. It sounds like they are still figuring each other out. Anytime they realize the other cat doesn't want to actually hurt them it is a positive. So I think it is a positive that it didn't escalate into anything.

Again, before the eye doctor appointment it could have turned into something but it didn't. Again a positive.

And the pantry incident. Again, a little hiss, Ember seemed to be ok, Frost just warned Ember. She got the message. No incident again a positive.

So I am pretty happy. There were a number of incidences that could have turned into something but didn't. They are figuring it out with your help. That means they trust and respect each other. We still have fine tuning to do so we have to keep building confidence and associating each with good things but I am really happy with where you all are at.

I am so sorry for the delayed response. I will be around now as family is now gone so please feel free to let me know how things are going. Just keep playing as much as possible then feeding. And distract if they seem to be getting a little "funny".

Keep up the great work!!

 

[Animal Freak]

Hello. Don't worry about it. I think I have a handle on everything right now. There was some tension for a couple of days after Ash's half-bath but nowhere near as bad as when he gets a full bath. We also had some anxiety in Ember for a few nights because of the fireworks for fourth of July but she didn't take it out on anyone. Probably my least favorite holiday. I've ordered some herbal calming stuff called Rescue Remedy and want to try it out. If it works, I think it could help us out a ton. And I might get some for myself too. I read a lot of good on it so we'll see. It should be here tomorrow.

It does seem like most of the issues we have resolve themselves before I can do anything about it. It's been mostly small things, but I don't like Frost's hissing at Ember. There was nothing to be warning her about. She was probably a little less than a foot away and he technically moved towards her. Because of me, but he was still the one to get closer to her. Plus, he's normally so friendly. He never had an issue with the dog, he took quite well to Ember, and he's mostly just curious. He's been going in and out of this phase of tormenting her and she won't do anything to him. She takes it and redirects it onto Ash who has his own issues to worry about.

We do have a vet appointment this Saturday. We're taking Ash and Frost in. They're getting their back ends shaved so we don't have to worry about the poop getting stuck. We also want them to look at Ash's back legs and see if there's anything causing him some pain or discomfort back there. We're going to bring up Frost's issues of not wanting to eat as well as his bullying of Ember. They're getting a shot for distemper as well since I've been going to the shelter and hanging out with the cats.

 

[calicosrspecial]

It is really good that there was less tension after the half bath. I totally understand about the fireworks, it does cause issues for animals sadly. All you can do is your best to try to reduce the stress, food, play, love. At least it only happens once a year.

My best guess is Frost is feeling a little insecure about Ember and therefore takes it out on her. It happens all the time with a new cat. I find the existing resident cats are the ones that take it harder because it is their territory being "invaded" by the new cat. So that is why we try so hard to associate the cats with good things (especially food), to build their confidence (play, height, love) and to try to make sure every interaction is as positive as possible (no chases, no staring, etc).

The fact Ember doesn't "stand up" to Frost and redirects also shows a lack of confidence. Once we get their confidence levels up (which it sounds like they have improved given your latest posts) the confrontations should happen less often. BUT it was only a hiss and it ended there. That is pretty good.

I hope Ash is ok. I hope it isn't anything or if it is it can be improved.

How long have you been going to the shelter? Some cats can get insecure when they smell a "foreign" cat's scent. Have you noticed any changes when you come home with the shelter cat's scent on you? Do you change your clothes? Do you notice them sniffing by the clothes you wore to the shelter? Other cat's scents can cause issues. I wonder if this has been an issue. I would love to get your thoughts if there might be any link.

It sounds like you have been doing a good job and there has been improvement. Keep up the good work and I hope all is ok with Ash.

 

[Animal Freak]

Yes, but you can hardly consider Ember as new. She's been with us three years and Frost never had a problem with her until recently. It just seems way too random which is why I want to get him checked up. Someone brought up that he could have some intermittent pain though I'm not sure if it adds up since he doesn't always want to eat, but doesn't necessarily have both symptoms at the same time. So, while the aggression between her and Ash has decreased, it's actually increased between her and Frost because he had never shown signs of aggression before. I don't think I had ever even heard him hiss before this started

I'm horrible at keeping track of time and can't remember exactly when I started going to the shelter. I would say it's been no more than a year, probably less. However, I went through some time where I didn't go at all and still don't go that often. They like to sniff, of course, but I try to change my clothes and wear different shoes so I don't give them anything. I can't say I've ever noticed a difference. Even sniffing me, they seem perfectly calm. They should all be used to me smelling like other animals. I used to go to my aunt's house just about every day and she had up to six dogs and two cats at one time. Not to mention, I even had two rats there. It never seemed to bother them.

I hope everything is okay too. He honestly seems to be doing a bit better. He isn't so vocal when I attempt to brush behind his legs though he does get very agitated and starts lashing his tail. He went through it before though and we gave him a few days in case he just pulled a muscle or something, but right when we were going to take him to the vet he got over it. He isn't getting over it so quickly this time and I don't want to risk it being something serious.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Ember was always more aloof though, correct? Not as close to Ash and Frost? Even after years of being in the same house I have seen the cat still be consider new or the "outsider". But your point is very good, it did start recently and it more random.

It is very smart to get him checked out. Always best to rule out anything medical.

It really is like being a detective, we have to look for anything that might trigger a change. Often times it is an intact feral marking the outside of the house causing territorial insecurity. But it can be a lot of things, anything to change the patterns and consistency of the lifestyle. Anything to cause an insecurity typically. Sometimes it is just a slow building of a lack of trust. One gets funny, then the other responds then it escalates slightly and over time it builds into something where the trust they had is no longer as strong. When a cat lacks confidence or is unsettled or fears then strange things can happen. A lot of times we can pinpoint the change so we default to building confidence and creating a feeling of security (cat trees to go high, scratching posts so they can "own" something, same with warm comfy cat beds, etc).

The good news is your cats are not at all acting badly. The know the line and they don't cross. I get a hiss once in a while but it stops there. It would be nice if there was never a hiss but it happens (too rough of play, a look, getting stepped on, etc). As long as it doesn't escalate and we distract and calm the situation down then we have it under control.

A lot of times cats can get comfortable with smells from the same cat (we actually use this when we do scent swapping) but it is when there are different cat's scents especially from intact males that can cause insecurity.

I am really glad you are getting him checked out. It is always best. Please let me know how the vet appt goes. Good luck.

Hang in there, you are really doing a great job. I know it is frustrating that things aren't perfect but it sounds like things have gotten better. I know we can make it even better. Don't worry, always feel free to post anytime, I am happy to try to help.

 

[Animal Freak]

Thanks. I think I'll worry more about Frost after the vet says he's healthy. Then I'll start looking into what could cause this. I'll definitely let you know what goes on though. All is well now. The dog is by my legs, Ash is by my head, and Ember was laying on me with Frost in the floor by us, but Ember walked away and so did Frost.

My aunt and two of my cousins can and brought their new kitten. Ember and Ash went into hiding, of course, and Frost kept his distance. I've no idea if any of them even realized there was another cat in here. We'll see how they handle the smell.

Ember is definitely more of a people cat. I think she'd do just fine with no other animals. The boys don't seem to rely on human contact as much and are more isolated though they do trust each other. So yes, I would say she isn't quite as close though it can be hard to tell just by looking at them. I think Ash is having some trouble trusting her, particularly during meal time. I can totally understand why too though I hope he gets through it.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That sounds like a wonderful time with all of them!!

I have confidence you will help Ash get through it.

They will smell the kitten, not much gets by cats. Let me know if there is any change in behavior, avoiding any areas, walking differently, etc.

Keep up the great work!!

 

[Animal Freak]

So far no one seems fazed. I don't think Ash has come out. I'm not even sure if Ember has come into the living room. I can't say that's really different though. I would have expected Ember to be out sniffing around, but it's not uncommon for her to hang out in my room. Frost is was laying on my arm and partly on my stomach (he likes to knead my stomach which is uncomfortable in itself and keeps stepping on one of the incisions) so I don't think he cares.

However, shortly after I sent the previous post, I heard a rather long and drawn out hiss. I got up to go find out what was going on. Of course, they were done by the time I even got up. I saw Ember go dart into my room before peaking her head out around the wall and then she came out and started looking around like she had no idea what was going on and thought there was an intruder. Frost had come along shortly after she ran off and just rubbed against my legs and Ash was laying on the cat stand. All three were in the same room when it happened. I'm guessing it was Frost who hissed. It sounded like his hoarse hiss though it was kind of faint from where I was. It was rather long though. He usually just gives Ember a short, brief hiss.

 

[Lalka]

only hissing seems fine if there is no fight...and you said a very slow hissing? my cats are mom/daughter and the mom still hiss at her *old* baby...after 9 years
Frost seems to love you so much

Dont let them trouble your sleep if they dont fight (i would wake up too :x )

 

[Animal Freak]

No, it's nothing extreme. I have only two concerns. One being that it's Frost. Anyone who walks into my house can tell that he's a sweet, laid back cat. He doesn't have a problem with anyone. Pretty much immediately after we brought the dog in the house, Frost would follow her around and just wanted to sniff her. This is a cat that's never had an aggressive bone in his body. For him to start this all of a sudden? It's a bit concerning.

The second thing I worry about is that it does stress Ember out. And she's not afraid of starting a fight. It hasn't been bad lately, but Frost hasn't been bothering her much lately. In fact, he only seems to be starting up again today. But the last time he started doing this, she started attacking Ash. So, while it isn't an issue now, it can become one.

I hope he loves me. It can be hard to tell. He's a friendly cat, but he's in no way clingy or demanding. Not like Ember who demands her attention when I get up in the morning, when I go to bed at night, and pretty much every time I move throughout the day.