The "What's on your mind?" Thread -2017

[Willowy]

The idea is to get their attention not to harm them

Punishment does not usually cause physical harm. Causing harm would be legally considered abuse. Not causing visible harm doesn't mean it's not punishment. The only reason it "gets their attention" is because it hurts. Or is at least uncomfortable, aversive in some way. On the learning quadrants, it falls under positive punishment. Own your actions. If you choose to use aversives in dog training, own it. Don't pretend it's something it isn't.

And your wrist is very different from your throat. Popping the neck with a choke chain briefly shuts off air flow, which triggers a survival fear response. If you believe in your actions, at least know the facts.
(Full disclosure: I took 4H dog training classes as a teen and found the methods to be very harsh and sadistic. They may have changed methods by now, idk)

The biggest difference between the two situations, as I personally see it, is that the woman in your store didn't stop

Obviously she had to stop eventually, at least to drive home. Where does one draw the line? You don't know if she took him home and hit him 50 times or more. But someone agreed with her that hitting the kid was right, ya know? And told the guy who said she was wrong that HE was wrong. So now she feels vindicated :/. Not to mention that the other people in the store might be like me, even if not, nobody really wants to see/hear that kind of thing.

There would be no point in smacking a kid if it didn't hurt and/or make them afraid (or if it weren't humiliating or aversive in some other manner). Little kids are grabby. Their brain development is not at a point they can control that fully. If someone smacked their toddler every time they "deserved it", they'd be smacking the kid 100 times a day. Sadly some parents do that. I can't imagine how miserable it would be to be their kid.

 

[handsome kitty]

If one of my kids swiped the donut I would have paid for it and dumped it in the trash immediately. Even with the swat if the kid still got the donut he may feel it was worth it.

tallyollyopia are you still writing Magic School and Egg? I haven’t seen a new installment since May or June. I reread the last few excerpts. Don’t stop writing you are extremely talented.

I found a full time job. Yay! Pays well, close to home and everyone who works there is happy and nice. I love it. Still have my older foster cats. They are characters. Make me laugh every day.

 

[margd]

When one of my daughters was quite young, she swiped some candy out of a candy bin in the local grocery store. I made her put it back and gave her the lecture about not taking what doesn't belong to us. She seemed contrite but it turned out that was an act since I caught her at it again some time later. My solution was to make her march up to the cashier, explain what she'd done, apologize and pay for the candy. She also didn't get something else she wanted because the money had been spent on the candy she'd tried to steal. That actually did seem to work.

Those kinds of things never got me angry enough to swat a kid. It was when they refused to do something I'd told them to do or called me an offensive name (these usually occurred during the same incident) that I had to take ten deep breaths to calm down. I wish I could say deep breathing always worked but two or three times my hand connected with a rear end before I could even think. Once, one of my daughters called Child Protective Services over a swatted rear end and they gently let her know that this was not child abuse, that saying "F you" to one's Mom was not acceptable and that it wasn't surprising that one's Mom got angry as a result. I really think that little talk from CPS may have done more good than anything I ever said or did.

 

[kashmir64]

I have only spanked my son twice. Once, he was hitting the dog with a stick. The other time he was chasing my stallion and hitting him with a whip. After repeated times of telling him to stop, he didn't. So I spanked him. He was only 2 and didn't comprehend that it hurt the animal.
Luckily my stallion, only 29", was extremely good natured. Once, my stallion was standing next to my son, it was hot, and he was 'hanging' a bit. My son grabbed it, pulled it down and yelled "mommy, what's this?"
My stallion never moved a muscle. This is the same horse my son would bring in the house to watch TV with him, when he was 2.
He was reading this thread over my shoulder last night and asked if I ever spanked him. I told him the circumstances of when these two times happened. He then threw his arms around me and said "Thank You for caring and I love you Mamma".

I am not vindicating a beating, or a slap on bare skin. I was beaten and choked by my mom's second husband growing up. This is not the way to discipline a child. But a spanking or swat on the behind (when they are toddlers) will not cause emotional distress to the child and most parents won't continue to hit a child after the punishment is dealt. At least I hope they wont.

 

[Willowy]

After repeated times of telling him to stop, he didn't. So I spanked him. He was only 2 and didn't comprehend that it hurt the animal.

I'm not guaranteeing I wouldn't do the same (that's where the scary anger comes in), but, I'm wondering, what good do you think that did? If a child is too young to understand he's hurting the animal, why would hurting him work to prevent that? That seems pretty pointless to me. I think, at that age, talking the whip away from him would have worked just as well.

But a spanking or swat on the behind (when they are toddlers) will not cause emotional distress to the child

I can't agree with that. As I said, studies show it rewires a child's brain. Events that we don't actively remember still affect us. But it's true that once or twice probably won't ruin anybody's life .

 

[kashmir64]

I'm not guaranteeing I wouldn't do the same (that's where the scary anger comes in), but, I'm wondering, what good do you think that did? If a child is too young to understand he's hurting the animal, why would hurting him work to prevent that? That seems pretty pointless to me. I think, at that age, talking the whip away from him would have worked just as well.

Because just telling him it was hurting wasn't getting through. I had to show him. There are consequences to his actions. I didn't beat him, just spanked him. I just now asked him what he thought about this, and he said, and I quote, "I never did it again. I deserved it".
On occasion, you have to show them when talking doesn't work. And a two year old doesn't comprehend half of what we are saying because their vocabulary isn't advanced. Sometimes showing them is the only recourse you have.
I had scary anger when I was younger. Thanks to my soulmate horse, I learned to control it. It wasn't easy, but since I never wanted to hit him, I fought to control it. It wasn't easy, he was a real pain until he was around 10.

 

[Willowy]

And a two year old doesn't comprehend half of what we are saying because their vocabulary isn't advanced. Sometimes showing them is the only recourse you have.

I guess I figure that a toddler who doesn't understand language also doesn't understand why you're hitting him either. They should just be removed from the situation until they're capable of understanding it.

I'm also uncomfortable with the concept of "it's OK, I deserved it". Like I said, if parents smack a baby or toddler every time they "deserve it" they'd be smacking the kid pretty much constantly. What behavior deserves hitting? It gets very messy.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick at things that happened in the past! Can't change it. I just like to try to work out what should be considered acceptable behavior toward small children. Some people smack their infants whenever they cry or fuss. They feel strongly that what they're doing is acceptable and necessary. I feel strongly that their behavior is wrong and damaging. Others feel like smacking a baby for crying is over the line but it's OK to do other things I also consider wrong. Well. . .it gets messy. That's about all there is to say.

I'd move to Sweden but it costs too much and I don't speak Swedish .

 

[kashmir64]

If you consider the alternatives. Bit, kicked or spanked. That's when it becomes OK. You choose the lesser of two evils.

 

[segelkatt]

Parenting has nothing to do with hitting. Or "swatting" if that word makes you feel better. Nor does teaching discipline. One can raise a fine human being without ever striking them (with a lower chance of anxiety disorders!). Anyone who doesn't know how to teach a toddler something without hitting them shouldn't be allowed within 10 feet of a child.

Also, generally speaking, if someone has so little self-control that they strike their child in public, they probably are doing much worse at home.

Ever seen a cat swatting her kittens? No? What planet do you live on? They do it all the time until kitten learns to behave itself. Swatting a child is to call attention to what you are saying, nothing more. I'm not talking about hitting, but swatting, with a diaper on that kid won't feel any pain but it surely will call it's attention to you and what you are saying. I've seen children run amok everywhere because they have never been disciplined where it sank in, it's usually the toddlers but sometimes older children and I can only wonder how they act at home.

 

[Willowy]

I've seen children run amok everywhere because they have never been disciplined where it sank in, it's usually the toddlers but sometimes older children and I can only wonder how they act at home.

Disciplining has nothing to do with hitting. It's very possible to teach discipline to children without ever striking them, and very possible to have entirely undisciplined children who get hit constantly. It's about teaching not punishing. Do you think every child in Scandanavia (or any of the 50 countries where it's illegal) is running amok?

In my experience, the kids running amok in public are those who get hit constantly at home, beaten even, but their parents have been turned in to CPS so they don't dare do it in public. The kids have only been forced to do things and not taught self-control so they don't know how to act in public. Hitting them in public would only exacerbate the problem.

 

[segelkatt]

Disciplining has nothing to do with hitting. It's very possible to teach discipline to children without ever striking them, and very possible to have entirely undisciplined children who get hit constantly. It's about teaching not punishing. Do you think every child in Scandanavia is running amok?

In my experience, the kids running amok in public are those who get hit constantly at home, beaten even, but their parents have been turned in to CPS so they don't dare do it in public. The kids have only been forced to do things and not taught self-control so they don't know how to act in public. Hitting them in public would only exacerbate the problem.

You keep saying "hitting". A swat on the backside, particularly to a toddler who wears diapers, is not "hitting" but it sure gets their attention and that's what you are after since talking to them goes right by them when they are interested in something else.
The kids that I have seen acting like savages in restaurants and other places are totally ignored by their parents at the time who seem to be oblivious to the noise they make, kicking seats, standing up in seats to bother you who is sitting with your back to them, running all over including your feet, dragging stuff off racks. I doubt that the are treated any differently at home. They act like their parents, oblivious to other people. These parents are also the first to scream "discrimination" when they are asked by management to leave.

 

[Blakeney Green]

I have to take Toad to the shelter tomorrow for a Convenia shot and some vaccinations, and I'm very anxious about it. She's going to have to stay there with me all day. What if she thinks I'm taking her back because I don't want her anymore?

I'm bringing some of her toys, her blanket, and her food, so maybe that will help.

 

[Willowy]

You keep saying "hitting"

Because it is? You can call it whatever you want but that doesn't change what it is. I can't use some of the words used to describe striking kids because of emotional issues, so I just stick with the basics. Is "striking" better for you? Or "smacking"? I could probably live with "smacking" although it seems a bit diminutive.

But again, do you think toddlers in all those other countries are suffering from not getting smacked?

Do you think parents who ignore their kids most of the time, then get up and smack them now and then, then go back to ignoring them would have better-behaved kids? I think parents who ignore their kids will have bad results no matter what punishment they use (or don't). Kids need attention.

All studies that have been done on the subject show worse outcomes with physical punishment, no matter how mild.

 

[handsome kitty]

People are never going to agree on spanking as punishment. It’s like politics or religion.

I can see it going too far. I can also see people relying on it to discipline children who are ADHD and austistic before they are diagnosed. When spanking isn’t enough how many will hit their kids harder?

 

[Willowy]

I have to take Toad to the shelter tomorrow for a Convenia shot and some vaccinations, and I'm very anxious about it. She's going to have to stay there with me all day. What if she thinks I'm taking her back because I don't want her anymore?

I'm bringing some of her toys, her blanket, and her food, so maybe that will help.

I think she'll be OK . Did she seem to be very sad at the shelter? If not, she may even have enjoyed it (even if she obviously can't stay there forever). I don't think she'll think you're leaving her forever.

 

[Blakeney Green]

I think she'll be OK . Did she seem to be very sad at the shelter? If not, she may even have enjoyed it (even if she obviously can't stay there forever). I don't think she'll think you're leaving her forever.

She never seemed sad. She's a very cheerful kitten by nature. I'll be there all day, so at least she'll know I didn't go away and leave her.

Thanks for the reassurance!

 

[tallyollyopia]

Punishment does not usually cause physical harm. Causing harm would be legally considered abuse. Not causing visible harm doesn't mean it's not punishment. The only reason it "gets their attention" is because it hurts. Or is at least uncomfortable, aversive in some way. On the learning quadrants, it falls under positive punishment. Own your actions. If you choose to use aversives in dog training, own it. Don't pretend it's something it isn't.

And your wrist is very different from your throat. Popping the neck with a choke chain briefly shuts off air flow, which triggers a survival fear response. If you believe in your actions, at least know the facts.
(Full disclosure: I took 4H dog training classes as a teen and found the methods to be very harsh and sadistic. They may have changed methods by now, idk)

Obviously she had to stop eventually, at least to drive home. Where does one draw the line? You don't know if she took him home and hit him 50 times or more. But someone agreed with her that hitting the kid was right, ya know? And told the guy who said she was wrong that HE was wrong. So now she feels vindicated :/. Not to mention that the other people in the store might be like me, even if not, nobody really wants to see/hear that kind of thing.

There would be no point in smacking a kid if it didn't hurt and/or make them afraid (or if it weren't humiliating or aversive in some other manner). Little kids are grabby. Their brain development is not at a point they can control that fully. If someone smacked their toddler every time they "deserved it", they'd be smacking the kid 100 times a day. Sadly some parents do that. I can't imagine how miserable it would be to be their kid.

Once upon a time, there were actually classes (I've attended them) that addressed different methods of parenting. (I'm personally fond of the quote, "The child raised by the book is a first edition." The meaning is that what's appropriate for one child, won't be appropriate for another. Example: When I was about eight or nine I got into a real smack-down, kicking, biting, screaming fight with one of the kids at daycare. (No, I don't remember what the fight was actually about. It's not important.) AWM's response, for me, was to make me write a five-page essay on blood borne pathogens. For me, with my natural scholistic bent and propensity towards research anyway--it was an appropriate punishment. I never bit anyone again. Fast forward a few years. RB, now about three or four years old, got into a real smack-down, kicking, biting, screaming fight with a kid in daycare. (Same daycare--small town.) AWM's response in his case was to take him aside and ask him how he felt. When he said he was in pain she said, "And so is the other little boy. He's in pain too, and you made him feel bad. Every time you're in a fight, you are inflicting pain." Which was, in his case (he was a very empathic child--enough that I occasionally wondered if it was a superpower), an appropriate punishment. Same exact type of incident--two very different responses.

I think the problem comes down to "deserving it." Would another parent have smacked me for getting into a fight at daycare? Probably, because a lot of people don't realize that, for the most part, violence just begets more violence. One of the worst behaved kids at school was hit all the time by his parents--and fazed him not a bit. It wasn't a "punishment" (which, by definition, means an action designed to prevent the recurrence of an undesirable behavior), it was "we don't know what else to do." (He was a very trying child--I remember feeling sorry for his parents.) Does a toddler deserve to be hit for crying?

Another thing drawn from personal experience--when LS was born she shrieked. For years. (Turned out the upper sphincter in her stomach was faulty so her stomach acid was escaping every single time she laid down. Or was jostled. Or jumped. Long story short--she was in constant pain.) There were people who told AWM (I was there for one of them, and the woman was never invited over again, and we were never put in her care) that she needed to teach LS not to cry by smacking her when she did. (Honestly, I thought AWM was going to kill the woman, but she was still holding LS, so--yeah.) The worst part about it, was that she was from social services. (When you live in a small community with a child that never. stops. screaming. people are going to complain, and investigations are going to be launched. AWM never did, and when LS was about three (three years of sleep deprivation except for when I was at DD's house--no wonder he thought all RB and I did was sleep all the time) the doctors finally found the problem--and had a way to fix it.

Do I believe that violence is justified in all cases? No. As someone very wise once told me, "Violence is the tool of a weak mind." Of course, the world is still full of cockroaches.

If one of my kids swiped the donut I would have paid for it and dumped it in the trash immediately. Even with the swat if the kid still got the donut he may feel it was worth it.

tallyollyopia are you still writing Magic School and Egg? I haven’t seen a new installment since May or June. I reread the last few excerpts. Don’t stop writing you are extremely talented.

I found a full time job. Yay! Pays well, close to home and everyone who works there is happy and nice. I love it. Still have my older foster cats. They are characters. Make me laugh every day.

I haven't stopped--exactly. It's like this; RB and I (he's my primary beta reader, and most familiar with my work) are arguing about a particular building and whether or not it should be included on campus. I don't know if I've mentioned this, but every building in the story is inspired by (not direct copies of--there are no shoe-shaped buildings with moving shoelaces) real buildings that really exist. I think this particular building 10 Buildings Shaped Like What They Sell (it's the fourth building down) is perfect for the main classroom--for things like reading, writing, math, etc.--classes. He thinks I'm bludgeoning the reader over the head with symbolism, and that I need to pick a new building. I haven't found one I like yet. Suggestions?

When one of my daughters was quite young, she swiped some candy out of a candy bin in the local grocery store. I made her put it back and gave her the lecture about not taking what doesn't belong to us. She seemed contrite but it turned out that was an act since I caught her at it again some time later. My solution was to make her march up to the cashier, explain what she'd done, apologize and pay for the candy. She also didn't get something else she wanted because the money had been spent on the candy she'd tried to steal. That actually did seem to work.

Those kinds of things never got me angry enough to swat a kid. It was when they refused to do something I'd told them to do or called me an offensive name (these usually occurred during the same incident) that I had to take ten deep breaths to calm down. I wish I could say deep breathing always worked but two or three times my hand connected with a rear end before I could even think. Once, one of my daughters called Child Protective Services over a swatted rear end and they gently let her know that this was not child abuse, that saying "F you" to one's Mom was not acceptable and that it wasn't surprising that one's Mom got angry as a result. I really think that little talk from CPS may have done more good than anything I ever said or did.

 

[tallyollyopia]

I have only spanked my son twice. Once, he was hitting the dog with a stick. The other time he was chasing my stallion and hitting him with a whip. After repeated times of telling him to stop, he didn't. So I spanked him. He was only 2 and didn't comprehend that it hurt the animal.
Luckily my stallion, only 29", was extremely good natured. Once, my stallion was standing next to my son, it was hot, and he was 'hanging' a bit. My son grabbed it, pulled it down and yelled "mommy, what's this?"
My stallion never moved a muscle. This is the same horse my son would bring in the house to watch TV with him, when he was 2.
He was reading this thread over my shoulder last night and asked if I ever spanked him. I told him the circumstances of when these two times happened. He then threw his arms around me and said "Thank You for caring and I love you Mamma".

I am not vindicating a beating, or a slap on bare skin. I was beaten and choked by my mom's second husband growing up. This is not the way to discipline a child. But a spanking or swat on the behind (when they are toddlers) will not cause emotional distress to the child and most parents won't continue to hit a child after the punishment is dealt. At least I hope they wont.

That has got to be the most patient stallion I've ever heard of (and I live in horse country).

I'm not guaranteeing I wouldn't do the same (that's where the scary anger comes in), but, I'm wondering, what good do you think that did? If a child is too young to understand he's hurting the animal, why would hurting him work to prevent that? That seems pretty pointless to me. I think, at that age, talking the whip away from him would have worked just as well.

I can't agree with that. As I said, studies show it rewires a child's brain. Events that we don't actively remember still affect us. But it's true that once or twice probably won't ruin anybody's life .

Would it? Or would the child have thought, with the odd logic children sometimes have, that hitting the horse with the whip is bad, so hit him with a stick instead? Whichever is better, it seems the correction worked and the behavior did not repeat.

Because just telling him it was hurting wasn't getting through. I had to show him. There are consequences to his actions. I didn't beat him, just spanked him. I just now asked him what he thought about this, and he said, and I quote, "I never did it again. I deserved it".
On occasion, you have to show them when talking doesn't work. And a two year old doesn't comprehend half of what we are saying because their vocabulary isn't advanced. Sometimes showing them is the only recourse you have.
I had scary anger when I was younger. Thanks to my soulmate horse, I learned to control it. It wasn't easy, but since I never wanted to hit him, I fought to control it. It wasn't easy, he was a real pain until he was around 10.

I guess I figure that a toddler who doesn't understand language also doesn't understand why you're hitting him either. They should just be removed from the situation until they're capable of understanding it.

I'm also uncomfortable with the concept of "it's OK, I deserved it". Like I said, if parents smack a baby or toddler every time they "deserve it" they'd be smacking the kid pretty much constantly. What behavior deserves hitting? It gets very messy.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick at things that happened in the past! Can't change it. I just like to try to work out what should be considered acceptable behavior toward small children. Some people smack their infants whenever they cry or fuss. They feel strongly that what they're doing is acceptable and necessary. I feel strongly that their behavior is wrong and damaging. Others feel like smacking a baby for crying is over the line but it's OK to do other things I also consider wrong. Well. . .it gets messy. That's about all there is to say.

I'd move to Sweden but it costs too much and I don't speak Swedish .

I heard they have a new law making it illegal to own just one of a socialized (as in an animal that naturally socializes in a group) animal. AWESOME!

Ever seen a cat swatting her kittens? No? What planet do you live on? They do it all the time until kitten learns to behave itself. Swatting a child is to call attention to what you are saying, nothing more. I'm not talking about hitting, but swatting, with a diaper on that kid won't feel any pain but it surely will call it's attention to you and what you are saying. I've seen children run amok everywhere because they have never been disciplined where it sank in, it's usually the toddlers but sometimes older children and I can only wonder how they act at home.

To be fair, I've seen children that are hit that run amok, and that's because the punishment isn't working and the parents aren't trying anything new.

Disciplining has nothing to do with hitting. It's very possible to teach discipline to children without ever striking them, and very possible to have entirely undisciplined children who get hit constantly. It's about teaching not punishing. Do you think every child in Scandanavia (or any of the 50 countries where it's illegal) is running amok?

In my experience, the kids running amok in public are those who get hit constantly at home, beaten even, but their parents have been turned in to CPS so they don't dare do it in public. The kids have only been forced to do things and not taught self-control so they don't know how to act in public. Hitting them in public would only exacerbate the problem.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I have my opinions and beliefs, and you have yours. The thing about opinions is--that everyone is right inside their own heads. I'm laying it to rest.

You keep saying "hitting". A swat on the backside, particularly to a toddler who wears diapers, is not "hitting" but it sure gets their attention and that's what you are after since talking to them goes right by them when they are interested in something else.
The kids that I have seen acting like savages in restaurants and other places are totally ignored by their parents at the time who seem to be oblivious to the noise they make, kicking seats, standing up in seats to bother you who is sitting with your back to them, running all over including your feet, dragging stuff off racks. I doubt that the are treated any differently at home. They act like their parents, oblivious to other people. These parents are also the first to scream "discrimination" when they are asked by management to leave.

Oh, I've had people like that in the store. "Sir/Ma'am, could you please remove your child from our store?" "How dare you! You're just asking because we're black/white/hispanic/gay/poor/etc!" I've heard it all, and most of the children in the store are pretty well behaved. They know that if I'm working and they're good the whole time Mommy/Daddy is in the store deciding what brand of carbonated poison they want for their system I'll give them a treat (a small yarn doll or a piece of candy). And it's always with the parent's permission.

I have to take Toad to the shelter tomorrow for a Convenia shot and some vaccinations, and I'm very anxious about it. She's going to have to stay there with me all day. What if she thinks I'm taking her back because I don't want her anymore?

I'm bringing some of her toys, her blanket, and her food, so maybe that will help.

Try taking some treats too.

Because it is? You can call it whatever you want but that doesn't change what it is. I can't use some of the words used to describe striking kids because of emotional issues, so I just stick with the basics. Is "striking" better for you? Or "smacking"? I could probably live with "smacking" although it seems a bit diminutive.

But again, do you think toddlers in all those other countries are suffering from not getting smacked?

Do you think parents who ignore their kids most of the time, then get up and smack them now and then, then go back to ignoring them would have better-behaved kids? I think parents who ignore their kids will have bad results no matter what punishment they use (or don't). Kids need attention.

All studies that have been done on the subject show worse outcomes with physical punishment, no matter how mild.

I think the worst are the ones that always ignore the child. That's worse. And what studies? And what were they studying? Systematic abuse, or occasional correction?

People are never going to agree on spanking as punishment. It’s like politics or religion.

I can see it going too far. I can also see people relying on it to discipline children who are ADHD and austistic before they are diagnosed. When spanking isn’t enough how many will hit their kids harder?

 

[Willowy]

I heard they have a new law making it illegal to own just one of a socialized (as in an animal that naturally socializes in a group) animal. AWESOME!

That's because they actually care about small helpless creatures .

I said that because they were the first to outlaw striking children, back in 1979. Now more than 50 countries have made it illegal. I would love to live in a place where it's illegal.

And what studies? And what were they studying? Systematic abuse, or occasional correction

They already studied physical abuse. They found out it was harmful, no duh. They found out that any physical punishment has a negative effect, to a lesser degree than abuse but still negative. It's not hard to find the studies. Here are a few to start you out:
Risks of Harm from Spanking Confirmed by Analysis of Five Decades of Research
The case against spanking
Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research

 

[tallyollyopia]

That's because they actually care about small helpless creatures .

I said that because they were the first to outlaw striking children, back in 1979. Now more than 50 countries have made it illegal. I would love to live in a place where it's illegal.

They already studied physical abuse. They found out it was harmful, no duh. They found out that any physical punishment has a negative effect, to a lesser degree than abuse but still negative. It's not hard to find the studies. Here are a few to start you out:
Risks of Harm from Spanking Confirmed by Analysis of Five Decades of Research
The case against spanking
Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research

Thank you. I'd never heard of these studies.