Struggling With Play Time

[Animal Freak]

My cats will sometimes play with little balls, but not too frequently. I'm a bit surprised they didn't play with it hardly at all. I expected more phases. I thought they'd start off terrified, then be curious and cautious, then play with it, and get bored with it afterwards. But they went from curious and cautious to bored with it and in a matter of minutes. Ember very briefly started playing with it and earlier today I caught her trying to play with it when it wasn't on. But it's too big for her kind of play. She likes to bat them around and pick them up with her claws.

I did. I have all of my box sets and big hardbacks down there. I was a bit surprised Ember listened, to be honest.

No, never on the cat tree fortunately. No way he couldn't have access to at least one litter box unless he was stuck in the living room somehow. There's one in my room(right by the bathroom), one in the bathroom, and one in the storage room attached to the kitchen. Definitely no room for anything else in there. It's pretty tiny. Basically just big enough to fit the toilet, sink, shower, and some drawers. And he has peed on a towel again.

Yeah, but I think it just happened so quickly. I mean, it was all pretty much over in a matter of seconds. Just long enough to get a few good clumps of fur off of him. And cats might be fast, but he was up against another cat. She was probably on him before he could even consider jumping up there and might have thrown his balance.

Well, I didn't get to try to play with them earlier today. Rather, I had to do it after they ate. We got a new dishwasher and had people here to install it. They took up the kitchen and dining room. Ember hid the entire time, of course. But I will try.

They all like the toy dangling in front of them or over their heads so they can bat at in, but in general I'd say Ash and Frost prefer ground prey and Ember prefers flying prey. Though Ember's favorite toy is the laser light, I think it's because it reminds her of a bug. She likes watching it on the wall/ceiling though she won't try to get it. Flies have been really bad lately(not just in our house, but everywhere) and Ember has had a blast catching them. I thought she might at least get a little bit of exercise out of it, but she got so good at it she can get them first try probably over half the time. And then eats them.

 

[calicosrspecial]

How big is the ball? I am surprised they went through it so fast too. But if they aren't into balls. It does sound like Ember might play with it down the road. I hope so. Mine love to through them as well. Not always so good. I tend to have balls now that are harder to through and just can be batted around.

That is good. Cats will surprise, they listen better than most people think. Good for Ember!!

Well that is good (not on the cat tree). Is it the same person that used the towel? Or does it not matter? Poor Ash, something is bothering him. We will figure it out. Think of anything that might be going on. If there is any way not to have a towel accessible to him that might be good then we can see what he may do (or not do).

That is understandable. I think it was just bad luck. Hopefully he will be more aware in the future. That area seems pretty good to me for him getting away from her (or anyone).

Sounds good. Did Ash go on the towel after you had people doing the dishwasher?

Try to make the toy act like a mouse (moving then stopping then moving) for Ash and Frost (and maybe a hop in there). And going around a corner. And Ember make it fly and act like a bird (or a fly). Oh, I know, they are good at catching them and it makes me so mad when they eat them. Not good for them but what can we do? Cats.........................

 

[Animal Freak]

It's pretty big. If I remember I'll get a picture of it. I'm not at home right now. It's kind of heavy too since it's made out of a hard plastic and has some electronics in it to make it move. I did see Ember playing with a smaller, but still somewhat big, rubber ball this morning.

Ember is a good listener. When she wants to be. It's surprising she'd give up a toy to listen to me.

I can't say I've noticed who uses the towels. Probably both, but not certain. We normally grab a used towel and throw it on the floor so we can step out on it after a shower. I was trying to remember to pick the towel up afterwards, but it's not a habit yet.

It's possible, but I don't know how likely it is. He actually did really well with the people here. He came out and explored and didn't run when they got noisy. He didn't really seem stressed or anything. But it's definitely possible. My mom found the towel after that, but it could have been done earlier.

I will. Honestly, the hardest part is getting Ash to even look at it. I can put the toy on his head and he won't even budge. But I'll keep trying.

It didn't bother me too much when she got the occasional fly, but it got to the point she was getting anywhere from one to three in a day. She'd eat one and then there'd be another.

So today I cut their claws and I noticed Ember seems to be missing one. It's just... not there. Barely a stump. I've no idea when or how it happened and I feel kind of bad because it looks like it would have hurt a lot, but I never noticed any changes in behavior. I cut Stella's quick and it bled a lot. From how low Ember's was broke, it seems like she would have been bleeding all over the place and possibly limping. And there's dark spots at the base, but I'm not sure what it is. She was getting antsy because I was holding her too long so I couldn't really get a good look.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I have hope Ember will play with it. It is good she played with another bigger ball. Let's hope as it is good in so many ways.

I know exactly how it is. Some listen better than others so it is good Ember listens especially when it is important.

Towels can be like litter so it could just be convenience. But it could be territorial. I would definitely try to pick it up so as to eliminate the opportunity. Then we'll see if it happens. It is tricky to know what is going on as it could be a few things. But if the towel isn't there and he does something then we suspect it is something more important.

That is good he did well and came out. But it could be that he felt insecure and marked. It usually is that we don't know when it happened. But the fact someone was in the house makes me wonder if that was it. We'll keep monitoring. It really is detective work.

Interesting..................... Try all different ways, something might entice him. It usually does.

I know. I have been there. Flies can carry things but it is hard to not have them.

Hmmmmmmmm. I am not an expert on that but it sounds like it would have hurt and she would have shown some sign. She didn't flinch at all when you touched it? I would look around or post on the health section and get some info to help understand the situation. Poor Ember. I know, I have accidentally cut the quick on a dog and wow it is bad.

 

[Animal Freak]

It was pretty cute watching her play with the bigger ball, especially since her movements are so dainty and delicate. It's almost surprising she got it to move at all.

Yes, Ember is a good cat. She really is. Sometimes it's easy to forget that(like when she's attacking Ash), but she is. And I make sure to remember that in those times that it's easy to forget.

I think it might be a little of both. He's never gone on anything other than a towel outside of UTIs. If he's going on something else then we know it's pretty bad. But at the same time he doesn't usually go on towels outside of a UTI either, so it's been more frequent than usual. And he hasn't gone anywhere else when there isn't a towel there.

Yeah, it's hard to say. He hadn't done it in a little while either, so it's certainly possible. My mom was the one who found them though and I'm surprised she didn't notice the smell immediately if it was fresh. She has the good sense of smell between us and can usually tell just walking into a room.

I will. I'll have to dig out the old toys, I guess. Or get a new one. The cheap, colorful ribbon toy still seems to be the general favorite, but even that gets minimal interest from him.

Okay, I'll do that. I wasn't sure if I should be worried since it didn't look too bad other than some darkness, but it was really low. It sure seems like there would have been something, some sign of her hurting herself. But no. No blood. No limping. I won't say for sure she wasn't at all uncomfortable because I had already done a couple of claws before that and took some time on that one as I tried to comprehend what I was seeing. She definitely got squirming, but I think it was more that I was taking too long than it being pain. She didn't panic or anything though. I'll post though.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Ember is dainty and delicate with the ball? Wow, I didn't expect that. I expected her to be pretty rough with it. Interesting to see how perception and reality differ. I bet it was really cute.

It sounds like she is. They all really are. Of course there are moments but overall we both have great cats.

That is helpful. It sounds like it might be territorial driven by something. Could be ferals, could be Ember is scaring him, could be so many things. But it sounds like it is something. Probably not a UTI. I wish we could get something in there that he could get his scent on (even a small scratching post). It is good he is not going anywhere else.

It is. Given that I am guessing your mom got it pretty quickly.

Yeah, just keep trying the old ones. It is more how it moves than anything in my opinion. If it acts like prey then it works even though it may not look like a mouse etc. Just keep trying different ways to move it. Really think like a mouse or a rabbit or a bird and think how they would move when a predator is around. I probably wouldn't spend money on new toys yet.

It could have been an old injury. But there would have been some evidence (blood) and limping I would think. I would post and see what experts would say. Please let me know what you find out.

 

[Animal Freak]

All of Ember's movement are dainty and delicate. But it doesn't help much when she walks on you because she's still heavy. She can get a little rougher with it, but she normally starts off barely tapping it with the tip of her paw and then she'll manage to get it off the ground and toss it slightly. I'm not sure if she hooks a claw in it or if she just manages to scoop it up though. Sometimes she does a little somersault and will bunny kick it, but that's about as rough as it gets.

They certainly are. Ember is just the only one who actually listens to me, even if it doesn't always benefit her. Of course, that's not to say she always listens, but more than the other two.

I don't think it's a UTI either. Or he'd be going on other stuff and it would be bloody. Ember is always a possibility, but they still get along really well outside of those incidents. He's not avoiding her or acting skittish. I suppose I could try to put the little scratcher in there, but that would leave the end of my ottoman defenseless. Not that it helps a lot.

Yeah, and she had picked the towels up and was just about to say he hadn't gone on them when she caught the scent.

I don't really want to spend money on new toys. I'm looking for toys for Stella to use as mental stimulation. I'll have to find the other ones. They're everywhere.

I did post, but only got a couple of replies. Still don't really know much, but they said it should be okay. The biggest concern is finding out how it happened so it can prevented in the future.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That sounds so cute. They do love to pat it and then escalate it and get wilder. She may scoop it, they do that a lot. They know how to do what they want to do. It is pretty amazing and cute. When she does a somersault and kicks it that is pretty good. Sounds like she is enjoying it. That is good.

I don't think any cat ever always listens. Hahahaha, even once is good.

That makes sense. It doesn't seem like a UTI. If he isn't acting differently around Ember then it probably isn't her. Then we look to other causes. Ferals, people coming in the house, other animals, etc. There is always a reason though it is not always easy to know what it is. You can always put that "sticky paws" stuff on the ottoman but I like to always have an option (scratching post) next to it as well so they can't scent mark it.

How long were the towels there? I am guessing from before the people came in the house.

I would try to give Ash some love and let him know you are still loving him. Also, have your mom give Ash some treats. Just to reassure him that he is loved by both of you.

I don't think you have to. Just find new ways to move the old toys.

That is good. Yeah, it is tough to know how things like that happen.

 

[Animal Freak]

Yeah, the summersaults are pretty funny. Sometimes she does it when she really wants my attention(even though I'm giving it to her) and she'll summersault sort of into my knee. It doesn't seem at all comfortable. I've never seen a cat do that before.

No, I don't think they do. She listens pretty well for a cat.

I know there's a reason. I'm certainly not blaming him for it. It's annoying, but it could be worse.

I guess I could try that stuff, but I've always avoided anything that actually physically did something, especially anything like tape. It doesn't seem at all fair and the boys have long fur on the bottoms of their paws. So the worst thing we've used is the Ssscat spray. Right now there's a horizontal scratcher on top of and a vertical scratcher next to the ottoman. And a small cat stand maybe a foot or so away from it. They still like the ottoman.

Oh yeah. Maybe from the day before?

Will do. I have been focusing on Stella a lot lately. I don't think that's really taking a lot of time away from them (Ash in particular since he doesn't come around much to begin with), but I could certainly give them a little more attention. I am trying to focus more on them and less on electronics, but I've been busy trying to find ways to get Stella using her head.

I got a toy that they all seemed to like. One of the last ones with a mouse attachment. It's uncomfortable though because it's wire and the end frayed, so it's a bit scratchy to hold onto. But it got them playing. Ash even went for it though not much. More than he has been. He actually jumped for it.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I can imagine, it must be really funny and cute. Cats really are when they get like that.

Agreed.

Yeah, I know. Hopefully we can figure it out and then help him so that it doesn't happen. It sounds territorial but why..........

I hear you. It is interesting they choose the ottoman over the tree and post.

I just wonder if it was the people coming in that caused him some insecurity. Things like that (or animals) are often the cause.

Yeah, try to give Ash some extra love and attention. Let's see if that helps. It is amazing how attention and love can really make a difference in feelings of security. I always say confidence is built of 4 things: Play, Food, Height and Love/attention.

WOW!!! GREAT!!! Good job!!!

 

[Animal Freak]

I sure hope we can figure it out. I agree it seems territorial.

It figures they'd prefer what they can't have. Or shouldn't have, I suppose.

I don't know. It would explain the incident that time, but it wouldn't explain the other times he did it. I think other cats is probably the most likely cause, but I'm not certain and I'm not sure if it's the cause every time.

I will. He got a bit of attention today. He actually came to me and I petted him while he was on the cat tree in the storage room a little.

 

[calicosrspecial]

We will. It seems insecurity/territorial. Spending some good love time and attention and possibly getting something near or in the bathroom for him to get his scent on could be helpful. These situations (though annoying in the short term) is very solvable.

Yep, exactly.

Yes. It could be multiple things, ferals/animals, loud noises outside, people coming around, etc. How has he been acting around your mom? If she could give him treats it could be helpful.

Excellent. That love is a big deal to a cat. Keep trying. Good job.

 

[Animal Freak]

Well, we'll work on solving it. I'll put the scratch in there I guess. I don't really like putting stuff in there, but that's just me being weird. I'll deal with.

I can't say I actually know. He isn't avoiding her, but he doesn't exactly seek her out either. He'll accept attention from anyone, but there's very few he'll actually come to. Unless he's in one of those moods that sends him yowling through the house. Then he'll go to anyone who talks to him. But him and my mom just kind of ignore each other for the most part.

Will do.

 

[calicosrspecial]

You could just try to make sure that there are no towels (anything that he might want to get his scent on) on the ground etc first. See if that works and then if it does then you wont have to put a scratching post in there. Might be worth a try?

If he isn't showing any sign of being different or avoiding etc then it probably isn't her.

Could there have been heightened stress in the house before he went on the towels? Cats can sense any change so any elevation in stress (which happens often in every household) could cause him some insecurity. And we may not even be cognizant of the increase in stress. It could even be our movements are faster or things like that.

Or any change in routine before he went on the towels?

It is these types of things we think of to try to figure out what might be causing it. Some cats can be more sensitive to these things than others.

The fact it is happening only once in a while tells me that it is not something happening every day and it could be something that happens that we shrug off that he might react more to. I know it is hard to watch changes but just try to sense anything that might be considered different such as change in routine, emotions, etc.

 

[Animal Freak]

I am doing that. So far he hasn't peed on anything other than towels, which is good. We can handle that.

I don't think so. Honestly, I stress so easily and sometimes I don't even realize I'm that stressed until they start acting out. But I don't remember there being anything to be stressed about.

My routine has been shifting quite a bit lately, but I can't remember if it started before his first incident and I've tried to keep their routine the same. It most involves myself and the dog.

I will try to pay attention. I'm just not always good at keeping track of the little things or knowing what happened when.

We have been having some trouble today. Ember has been going after Ash today and it hasn't been once or twice. They're fairly small attacks, but it's happened I think six times and each incident has only gotten worse. The first couple I was able to stop before anything actually happened by saying Ember's name. The third time I fed them treats within a foot of each other. After the fourth time I herded Ember into my room and shut the door. Then I petted her until she was able to stop focusing on the door and played with a ball a little. After the sixth time I took Ash to my mom's room and we gave him plenty of attention to calm him down. He had started growling at Ember that time.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Let's hope that solves it. Fingers crossed.

Cats can take on our stress pretty easily and quickly so that is always something I think of when change happens. Sometimes we don't notice it but it gets reflected in our actions (distracted, focused on something else, distance, faster movements, impatience, etc and even emotions that we don't even show - more happiness or more sadness etc). Sounds like in your situation it probably wasn't that.

Routines can be a factor. And it doesn't have to be directly with the cat. They could still be played with, fed etc at the same time but if the parent wakes up early or goes to bed at a different time, or eats differently or leaves at different times it can have an influence. Some cats are more sensitive to that than others.

Yes, life gets in the way especially when something is found out after the fact (so remembering something unmemorable becomes more difficult). Just try to keep an eye out for any changes.

Did you notice what happened before the first incident? Was it when you came home? Was there heightened activity at the time or were you just hanging out? Was he looking outside (or was she)? Was it in a tight space? Try to look for things like that. And then we can think of what it could be.

How did they act after the first incidents? Were they cautious for a while? Or did they brush it off? I am guessing they didn't brush it off.

It could be redirected aggression, it could be pent up energy, it could be there was a bad incident and some fear of one of them or each other. Some of that we can resolve with certain things but if we can't figure out the cause making positive associations and building confidence and keeping them on a routine and staying calm and confident around them.

We'll figure it out, don't worry.

 

[Animal Freak]

So far so good, but there was a rather large period of time between incidents before.

Well, I'm pretty much always distracted and impatient. I'm working on that. But I don't think there was any stress. At least not any more. It's certainly a somewhat stressful time, but I try to think of the stressful things at certain times and ignore them otherwise.

Yeah, I've been changing things a bit. I want to get into more of a routine. So I set more alarms.


This was actually one of the few times I saw quite a bit of what happened. And honestly, there were no triggers that I could see. I didn't see everything, but some of it. Ember had been laying with me on the couch. I could only just see Ash at the other side of the living room and I saw him get up and move, but he went out of sight. Only a minute or two after that Ember suddenly jumped up and off the couch. She walked with her body low and stalked forward a bit before standing there. I tried calling her, but she wouldn't budge. Then I get up and right then she started moving swiftly forward and began running before I could stop her. I did notice Ash was on the far end of the kitchen by the cabinets. I'm not sure if he moved there when she was staring at him or if he had already been there, but he was just sitting quietly. I called Ember and she did stop before actually attacking him.

I saw the second time too. I don't remember the exact situation, but I had been in the kitchen for whatever reason and looked into the dining room where they were both at. Ash was by the dining room table, Ember by the computer desk. She suddenly started running at him, but her tail was up, so I actually thought she was trying to play. But he ran/trotted away from her and her tail immediately went down. At that point I knew it was an attack and called her. She stopped before attacking again. I didn't see the other times though.

I have no idea with them, but whatever is triggering her is extremely subtle. Ash is quite honestly doing nothing before she attacks him. I suppose it could be some minor tension in him, but what would cause it? If he isn't doing anything, what would make him tense or anxious or whatever else it may be? It almost makes me wonder if it's not more of a mental thing with Ember. I've no idea what, but it's just like all of a sudden she doesn't recognize him or something.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That is good, fingers crossed.

It is more the change in stress levels or routines or movements etc. The change is what can put them off. It sounds like there wasn't much change.

Yes, changing things can cause some unease and therefore some behavior issues. When the routine is set then we can see if that was it or if it is something else.

Do you think Ash kind of acted like prey? It almost sounds like he could have acted like that. It is very good she stopped before getting into it with him.

Yes, going to him with her tail up is play or something positive BUT then he acted like prey and it was different. If Ash would just trust her she probably wouldn't attack. Not that Ember wants to hurt him but when he acts like prey then it changes things.

I get a sense she wants to play a bit and then Ash doesn't trust her and acts like prey and it changes. I would keep making positive associations and building his confidence. I don't think it is serious but I would like him to stand up a bit more (not act like prey). Confident cats don't get attacked or attack (typically). Also, trying to drain some of her energy (in anyway possible play or getting her up and down on trees etc) that could also help her not want to go after him (play).

It actually sounds pretty normal and not too worrisome. I don't think Ember wants to hurt him but it sounds like Ash is just a bit leery still.

 

[Animal Freak]

Alright. I'll hopefully be able to have a set routine this week. It's just been a bit difficult deciding what to do, how much to do, and when to do it.

Maybe? I couldn't see him after he moved and I only got to look at him for a few seconds when I got up. He was kind of hunched up right next to the cabinets, but I can't say that's totally abnormal for him. Of course, he was some distance away and I didn't get to really observe him, so any subtle signs were lost and I couldn't see his exactly position, which would have told me a lot. But I also don't know if he took up that position before she started staring or after.

Yeah, that was the first time I can actually say it did look like it started off as play. Ash does seem trusting of her in most situations, but there's definitely times that he's not. And I can't say I entirely blame him.

I do want to make more positive associates between them, but it's a little hard right now. I'm out of treats and waiting on two bags to come in the mail. It's also why I can't get my routine settled just yet. I want to have a training session with Ember and one with all three, but I can't teach them tricks when I don't have treats.

While typing this, I heard a couple of hisses, but no running or anything. Went out there and Ash was sitting by the storage room door and Ember walked into the dining room all tense, but I went in the kitchen and petted Ash. Ember came in and was tense, but they did fine. They walked right by each other and accepted pets, but Ash was making little aggressive sounding meows. Ember didn't seem bothered by him though so I just left it be. But then I heard a lot more noise and went back out there. Ember went in the dining room again, Ash was still in the kitchen, but he was growling. He wouldn't leave or anything, but he just kept growling at her. At this point, I do think he's lacking in trust and that's the issue, but he's lacking trust because she's attacked him.

Also, I don't know if it's connected or coincidental or what, but Frost has been a real crab towards Ember lately. It's worse than ever. He rarely ever seems to want her within two feet of him. Sometimes he's play with her, but it only lasts a few seconds before he starts making aggressive sounds and will end up hissing at her. She never reacts to it though.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Yes, it is always difficult. Just do your best and try to keep it as close as possible. Cats love routines so the more routine things are the better it can be.

Yes, it is tricky and even when we see it it can happen so fast then our minds don't always remember what happened if we did see it. It happens to me all the time.

It sounds like it. There is a lot of trust between them. I am guessing Ash misinterprets Ember's play and gets cautious and then acts like prey and then Ember changes to hunt a bit and then Ash goes "whoa, this is different and kind of scary". If we can get him to play or just hold his ground then it will be better. Of course, they aren't really fighting so it isn't too bad but we always worry things can degrade so we don't want it to escalate.

Yes, don't worry, it isn't urgent, just when it can happen. I think it will help settle them a bit.

What you did there was positive association. Which is great. Having them together and having them together safely. Showing them that there is no threat. Growling, hissing, is a way to communicate to say "hey don't mess with me" which is fine. Ember seems to not totally understand it or care at times. Yes, he just doesn't totally trust because of the past issues. But continuing to make those positive associations (whether with treats or with love and attention) it will help build their trust. Any time they are near each other with no incident then it is a positive association. When you do this watch to see if they look away from each other, or turn their backs etc. As no one would really look away or be vulnerable if they feared being hurt.

It could be but the fact she doesn't react makes me wonder. If Frost is being worrisome to Ember it could be that Ember is redirecting that to Ash. And if he is being crabby then it could elevate the stress/unease in the house and cause the others to be more cautious. And it can feed on itself. It is a little hard to explain but stress can come from animals as well as humans. Try making positive associations with Frost and Ember as well. I didn't realize Frost was not getting along as well as I thought.

It is not uncommon for the newest cat to not be totally accepted depending on personality etc. It isn't like they can't live together but that there just isn't total acceptance. I have seen it many times. It isn't worrisome but draining energy through play is always good as well as making those positive associations like mentioned above. And of course time tends to be our friend in these situations as well.

Don't worry, it is something we need to work on but it doesn't sound like it is an urgent existential issue. But we do want to ease the tensions.

Let me know if you need clarification on what I am talking about. I am not sure i wrote that as clearly as needed.