Struggling With Play Time

[calicosrspecial]

Hmmmmmm. Is she eating like normal? I totally agree about energy. Sometimes when a dog fears that they will not be at peak performance (ie their knee goes out) then they could be more defensive. Sometimes the smells rather than only the behavior can cause issues with dogs too. Hmmmmm, it is a tough one to figure out.

I figured, it is hard to know when you don't see it. I am guessing something spooked him (maybe a shadow or a breeze or something). It is good that he rebounded quickly. How were his eyes when he was growling?

Sometimes cats do get wild when it comes to human bedtime. I know mine do. Chasing, playing etc. I wonder if there is some territorial thing going one or just sometimes cats are more skittish around certain cats. And some like to get up to mischief when the parent is away (I have one like that!!). Oh my, Ash actually bit? Wow. I didn't expect that. Are you ok? DId it break the skin bad? He must have been in "the mode". Ember must have scared him. Poor guy. Just be careful and let him calm down before reaching for him. And feel him out before reaching out. Sometimes they are so focused they don't know what they are doing. Do you think he is feeling pain or discomfort?

Ahhhh, you just answered my question. That is good he knew not to break the skin. He warned but knew not to hurt you which is good. I know what you mean, it can be very shocking since it is so unexpected. Ahhhhhhhh, yes, he may have thought you would be messing around back there again. It is uncomfortable for them. Now it makes more sense what happened.

Yes, I can see that. It is fantastic!!! Animals tend to need more help than people. I am the same way.

I know that feeling. Some days it is so hard and everything seems to happen at once. :/

That you will. I have done a lot of TNR and it really works. It helps reduce the suffering, the fighting, etc. It is very important. It is larger than you think. It can help protect them as they are less prevalent and therefore less in the mind of neighbors that don't like them etc and therefore might reduce someone from doing something bad to them. It is hard to explain but I believe TNR is a big deal in many, many ways. It is very meaningful what you do and I am so happy that you are trying to make their lives better and safer!!

 

[Animal Freak]

Yeah, she's eating fine. It very well could be multiple things. I don't know what to do about it though, other than standing on the sidewalk in front of the dogs until she stops, but that could take a while and I doubt the owners of the dogs would appreciate it.

You know, my memory isn't the best and I won't say I really remember. I think they were probably a bit wide, but not especially dilated or anything.

I don't know what's up with her. I try playing with her. I try multiple times a day with varying degrees of success. She gets at least one training session a day though I need to get it back to two. And it seems really random. Of course I know she has her reasons, but I'm sure if those reasons have anything to do with Ash or if it's something else setting her off or what. What causes a cat to attack like that? I don't usually see the incidents, but I've never seen Ash do anything worth being attacked for. Perhaps there's some outside influence? But what could it be? It's so hard to fix a problem when you don't know what's causing it. Honestly, if this is something that's still going on in the future, I might try medication sometime. Not long term. Just something to give us some time for her to build confidence and learn he's not there to harm her. I'm going to try other things first, of course. Maybe I should give her a calming treat shortly before I go to bed? The problem is they're only suppose to last a few hours. I could try Feliway again, but we didn't notice a difference before and it's not cheap. Maybe if I could find it for sale or something.

He doesn't act like he's in any pain unless I'm directly messing with his back legs or tail, but he is a cat so who knows? Picking him up was a pretty stupid move on my part. I learned my lesson. It was just odd because 1.) he doesn't usually lash out at me like that and 2.) he was letting me pet him. Thinking back on it, I think he was shifting in the box and I got his side, but I think I was withdrawing my hand to let him get comfortable. It's possible he thought I was going to his back legs though.

Ash is really good about knowing just how much force he can use. It seems like a sixth sense for him. He's always been really good about that. Sometimes a little too good. It can start hurting, but he's never broken skin on me. She left and came back. Then I saw a ball of white(Frost) hurtle into my room and there was a loud hiss. Don't know who it was. It didn't sound like Ember though she seems like the most likely one. I didn't even know she was there though. I just saw her walking away from that area. I don't think she chased Frost in since I only saw one running figure. Shortly after that, there was a spit-hiss that was definitely Ember. I'd know her spit-hiss(she literally spits and hisses immediately after) anywhere. She was fine immediately afterwards though and didn't leave the room. All three(and the dog) are all still in here. Scratch that. Ember just walked out. She had to make a liar out of me.

There was a bit of growling tonight. Ash was partly in my room and Ember was outside. I don't know why she decided she had a problem with that, but she did. He came in and hid in the tunnel on the cat tree and I got her in. After a couple of treats, she was okay though still tense.

Today was another rather busy day, but I did manage to get on a bit earlier today and I sent them an email right before I got on here, so it's just a matter of waiting for a response.

I do agree that TNR is an important thing. I'd definitely like to be apart of it some day. I'd really like to be able to offer a shelter to ferals, but I know it would be very difficult and costly. Do you think ferals could learn to live near dogs? I know there are plenty of dogs in the neighborhood I'm trying to get TNRed, but I'm sure the cats are used to that and know that they're okay as long as a fence is between them and the dogs, but if I had dogs in my house and in my yard, would they be okay with that? I'm way ahead of myself, but I was thinking about that. I'd love to be able to set up a little cat haven and have it fenced in and have a finished basement set up for them, but I'd like to have a couple of dogs too. They wouldn't share a yard, of course, but they would be pretty close.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That is good. Yeah, it could be a bunch of things. Hmmmmm, I would jsut try to reassure her that everything is ok and get her to focus on being pet (and not on the other dog). On the play, that is trickier, just let her come around at her pace. I wouldn't worry too much at this point.

That is good. Yeah and it happens so fast so it is hard to remember.

Yes, there usually is a reason from something simple and meaningless to something serious and complicated. It is hard to know without seeing what goes on before it. Cats can attack because of fear or territorial or to play. It can be so many things. T gauge the seriousness I always look at how fast they rebound from it. If it is fast then it isn't too worrisome. It could just be Ash's body language or a look (stare). It can be so many things unfortunately. It very well could be an outside influence. A smell, a sound, etc. I would try a few things. Give her some love before bed. Maybe get her to hang out in your bedroom to give them space. Play before bed but I know she doesn't always want to play. Things like that. I am a big believer in working on them being together safely with no incident, making positive associations, giving them a lot of places to hang out without getting into each others space, and building confidence through play and height. Sometimes cats just have a bit of a suspicion between each other but the good news is they aren't fighting and they can co-exist safely. Cats can have dust-ups but as long as no one gets hurt it isn't too big of a problem but of course we always want to work with them to build that trust between them.

That is good that he doesn't seem to be in pain. Yeah, sometimes a cat will lash out just to let us know. It is a way of them communicating. Sometimes petting can get them more worked up. It can be tricky. Sometimes it can lead to overstimulation. And they can get a bit wild and lash out. But the key is he knew not to hurt you which is great. He may not have even known it was you and then when he bit he figured out it was you. It can be so many things to be honest that it is hard to tell. But I go back to the fact he didn't hurt you and that is the main thing.

I fed my ferals chicken by hand and it is funny, the ferals know when they get through the chicken and their teeth touch my fingers. They know to stop. Amazing really. Cats are really knowing.

Did the dustup between Frost/Ember happen yesterday? It sounds like Ember is a bit grumpy or defensive or something. At least she rebounded quickly. I wonder if it is just an attention/territory thing. Keep giving her attention when the others are around.

I wonder if Ember is a bit territorial. That Ash was in your room and Ember thought (that is mine). It was good you brought her in and gave treats. Let her know she is loved and it is ok. No risk no danger.

GREAT!!!

Do you feel a bit more stressed than usual? You mentioned yesterday was a busy day. Cats can pick up on that and that can cause them to be a bit anxious and more uneasy and more likely to get "into it".

Ferals can absolutely learn to live around dogs. Of course it depends on the cat and the dogs but cats are smart and they figure it out. A few of my ferals would walk with dogs. The cats size up the dogs and see if they are threats or gentle. Cats are very smart about survival. Some dogs will go after cats but the cats figure it out and run away or go up in a tree etc. My ferals have lived with dogs (outside and in) all their lives. In fact, my boy LOVES dogs. I mean seriously LOVES. Goo goo eyes, rubbing etc. My neighbor has a former feral and she lets him out and he walks with her and their dogs. It depends on the dog but you will know if it will work. And the cat will know right away.

 

[Animal Freak]

I want to warn you that this is going to be ridiculously long. And I do mean long. I came back to type this before I was even finished and it's so long I don't even want to read it. You do not have to respond to everything. I just wanted to give the full extent of the information so that way you know exactly what's going on. I wouldn't even be offended if you didn't read everything completely. And I tried to keep it as short as I could without leaving important details out.

Well, I don't really want to pet her for misbehaving. I need to reward her for the proper behavior. Honestly, I should probably just have treats on me constantly and feed her for every little thing she does right. It's kind of a pain, but I don't think she's going to learn any other way. She did better today though.

I know they get over it quickly and they're good friends outside of those incidents, but it just happens so often. If it happened once or twice a week or so then I wouldn't worry about it, but it's two or three times a day. The stress might not last long, but it happens so frequently that I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference. And I might take it harder than I should because I hold such high standards when it comes to the care of animals. I believe it's my job to give them the best lives I can and I try to avoid any stress or pain or discomfort. I know it'll happen, but I do what I can to prevent it and fix it when it does happen. So knowing they're stressed so often is really hard on me and, I admit, make me wonder if I was right in adding a third cat or if they'd all be happier if it was just two.

How soon to bedtime should I play with Ember? I took the advice of playing before mealtime so we play around 7:30 and they eat at 8. I'm normally in bed by 8:30-9 though I don't go to sleep until around 10 or so. I'm not really sure when I can fit in another play session since that's when I do the chores of cleaning litter boxes and whatnot, but I'm sure I can. And she does usually get attention before bedtime since she normally gets in bed with me for at least a little while. She probably gets more attention than Frost and Ash combined, honestly. Maybe even Stella too.

Yeah, I've never held being bitten or slapped against them. I know it's just their way of communicating and, as long as they don't break skin, I'm not about to take that against them. It's not like they have many ways to communicate with us anyway. I think I took that time a bit worse just because it was so unexpected. He's lashed out when I've messed with his back legs before, but never in a situation like that.

I'm trying to remember when everything happened, but it's getting a bit blurred(I think you'll know why soon enough since I'll be getting to that). I try to type things somewhat in order, so I think it was the night before?

She definitely doesn't like him in my room. And he seems to have decided he wants to be in it. I don't know why. He was never so interested before.

It was busy, but I wouldn't really call it stressful. Perhaps a bit overwhelming though. I was doing a lot of cooking and the dishes got rather tiring. I think I spent half the day in the kitchen either making something or cleaning up the mess from making something.

(11:30p.m.--12a.m.)Last night(It was last night right? Yeah, okay it was) all four animals were in my room. Ash in the tunnel on the cat tree, Frost on the floor nearby, Stella at the foot of my bed by my feet, and Ember laying slightly further up just inches away from the dog. I was half asleep when all of a sudden there was a hiss. Don't know who did it. Just know it wasn't Ember. It didn't sound like her and she was in bed with me. Of course she got up. I turned the light on and both boys were still in their places like nothing happened. Ember was tense. Ash growled at her. Twice. She started lashing out at Frost(slapping, lunging). I tried to stay up and let them cool off, but it wasn't happening. I know I said I learned my lesson, that I wouldn't pick Ash up, but it was late, I was tired, and leaving them like that was like asking for a fight. Ember was tense, there was a threat in her safe room, and Ash was pretty much cornered in. I made Ash back out of the tunnel so he wouldn't have to go out towards Ember and tried to grab him. He growled at me. Yeah. Growled at me. That's definitely a first. He's never growled at me unless you count when he has a live mouse in which case he's just constantly growling. So I let him go on top of the cat stand hoping he'd cool down after a couple of minutes. Tried again. Growled at me again. I ended up having to scruff him and carry him out of my room facing away from Ember since I couldn't get him out without walking past him and couldn't move her without chasing her out of my room. Shut my door and just slept with Stella and Ember who slept mere inches away from each other again.

(6:00a.m.)This morning Ember went after Ash again. I called her into my room and shut the door. Later on when I let her out, she slapped at him again. I don't remember how soon it was after I let her out though. Probably within an hour, give or take. She walked away, he jumped on a shelf on the computer desk, she came back and slapped at him while he was up there.

(7:40p.m.-ish)I tried to get them to play in my room for their even play session, but they would calm down enough. Ember and Ash just kept going after each other. There was once where Ash even initiated it when she got a bit close and once I could clearly see that it was his tension that caused it. It was kind of weird because I could give them treats and they'd be totally fine. No tension whatsoever. They could sit face-to-face inches away. The second Ember realized I wasn't giving out treats, she'd start lunging and slapping again. I'd put my hand between them and she'd back off temporarily. I gave up because it was their feeding time and hungry gets do not get along any better than not-hungry cats.

(Shortly after 8:00p.m.)Frost, of course, was the last to eat. Ash has still been trying to steal his food. My mom nudged him away, but he went back immediately after she left. I chased him off too. He went back. So I sat next to Frost and kept him away. He laid down in the kitchen maybe a foot or so away. Ember walked behind him. He hissed at her and then growled. She immediately stopped, tensed up, and stared at him. I wasn't sure what to do. Toys probably wouldn't work and it would require me leaving them. Treats always work, but I'd have to leave them for that too. The closest bag of treats was further in the kitchen and I'd have to walk past Ash, potentially making him get up and possibly set Ember off. I considered letting them handle it even if it meant her attacking him. Before I figured it out, Ember walked away. Yep. Walked away. I was rather proud of her. She didn't go far and she remained tense. She sat in the dining room and stared at him. I picked Ember up and held her until she jumped down. Things were fine after that.

(Not really sure. Maybe 9-ish?)I ended up playing with Ember later because I had left the laser light out and she came running when I went to put it away(she knows the sound of the case). Frost came in and laid in the narrow part of my room. Ember ran by him and stopped next to him. He slapped at her a few times. She completely ignored that. A moment later he lunged at her, wrapped his arms around her, and gave some aggressive sounding mrowing noises(hard to explain, but he doesn't really making any other sounds other than meowing and hissing). She left.

(10:30-ish?)Not that long ago I heard a noise and looked to see Ember and Frost. They seemed like they were playing so I left them. Frost started getting vocal(not uncommon anymore) and then he hissed.

Ash also peed on a towel earlier. Not sure what time that was. It was evening. That's all I remember. It was a lot and no sign of blood. I don't know if the beginnings of a UTI could have been making him touchy and causing Ember to lash out or if Ember lashing out caused a UTI. I'm not even sure if it's a UTI at all or just a habit he's picked up when he's stressed. I don't know if I should take him to the vet to get the shots just in case or if I should wait. I don't want him to be in pain, but it's so stressful right now that I'd hate to put him through more and him coming home smelling like the vet would add to the tension.

I also think there might be an animal lurking outside. Stella has been sniffing quite a lot. She even got to sniffing a patch of grass in a break in the concrete in front of our stairs the other day. She got so into it she didn't want to budge. I'm not sure if that's the problem or how to fix it. We haven't had any windows open and the door is opened rather sparingly so I don't know if they could smell it. I've never noticed any issues with them looking out the window and the incidents do not usually happen while looking out.

On top of all this I managed to burn myself today and we're on a boil order. Can't use the water. Their water bowls need to be refilled. If it's not fixed by tomorrow I'm going to have to bowl enough to fill the bowls. That's a lot of water.

 

[Animal Freak]

So I decided to break this into two parts(honestly, I'm half surprised I didn't manage to find a limit to the word count with that response. I kind of feel bad for typing that much). That all was the bad stuff. I wanted to add some good though. I'm not a very optimistic person, but even I know too much negativity is bad. Again, you don't have to reply to everything. I just wanted to take notes on some things. I think it's nice having these things written down anyway. I can look back later on.

First of all, Stella and Ember seem to be getting along. Like I said, they slept inches away from each other.

Also, Ember has been bringing her toys closer to me when she wants attention. She usually leaves them in the hall and I'm lucky if I can even see them. Tonight she brought one right up to the base of my bed. That's closer than ever before. She's brought three toys in so far tonight. Lol. It's really cute. I can't say no.

I did get a response from that organization. Not really good news. They said they could loan traps and pay for the spay/neuter, but most of their volunteers are in the big city nearby with rather few people outside that area and everyone is already overwhelmed. I haven't completely given up yet, but I'm losing hope. I was hoping they'd at least know someone who could do something. But I guess it's asking a lot to ask an organization to contact everyone they know on the off chance someone might be willing.

I'm glad to hear it about ferals living with dogs. It was something I thought of the other day and it had me worried because I know I want to help ferals and I would say I prefer cats over dogs(not by much), but I'm not sure I'd want to give up having dogs. And there's always the chance(a fairly good chance) that I'll have Stella when I'm able to care for ferals. There's no way I'd be giving her up. I was more worried about them sharing a house even if they never saw each other and lived on different floors. I was a bit worried barking would scare them off too, especially if I ended up getting a house that already has cats living nearby and aren't used to dogs. Any dog I have will, of course, have cat manners. In fact, that's the only manners Stella has.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Hahahahaha, it is ok, I will try.

I was thinking the petting more in the calming and giving a secure feeling. As if to say "it is ok, don't worry, it is all good". I hear you about not rewarding bad behavior. But I think her behavior might be more fear driven. Treats are good too. Petting is easier to always have available though.

Please do not be hard on yourself. This is common. This happens in pretty much every household. It is actually pretty minor. With that said, I know what you mean but I guarantee you give them a great home. If they weren't bouncing back then I would be more worried. Some cats don't get along as well as others. It happens. I have one now that is more of a loner (she was the last one in). She will have a dust up once in a while. Nothing major but I will hear a hiss or a chase. It happens. Mine was a long intro so I expected issues. My point is it happens sometimes no matter how hard you try and what you do. There is only so much we can do so all we can do is our best and try to keep working on things. If stress does get up it does affect the cats. I have seen it first hand many times so I firmly believe in that. Please try not to be too hard on yourself and therefore not get more stressed. This is really pretty minor. Of course we want to improve it but it is very manageable.

I think that is perfect timing for play, eat, bedtime. So there isn't much we can change there. It sounds like you are doing everything I would do including having her hanging out before going to sleep.

Yes, I know what you mean. It is unexpected. I know you don't hold it against him which is great.

It sounds territorial/ownership to me. She wants your room (territory) and you. He wants to be in there and boom conflict. VERY common. Work on play with her in your room, give treats to her when he is in there. Just get her used to him being in there and it being ok. Safe. I have faced this numerous times. It is common. The key is to make sure she feels secure in your room whether he is there or not and if he comes in that it is ok for her.

Cats like routines so anything out of the routine can be disconcerting. So cooking, doing dishes etc is out of the norm and cats can get on edge because it is different. Not in the routine. It makes sense. And if a person is busy then they can't focus on the cats and be in the same places etc. I see it all the time. That makes sense.

(11:30pm - 12:00am) - I wonder who hissed. Hmmmm, Ember definitely felt threatened and redirected at Frost. In the middle of the night when we are tired this is hard. Ideally we would want to just have them calm down then entice one of them (in your case Ash) to go into the other room using treats or a toy or calling them etc. Sometimes when we rush then we escalate it a bit (I have done it so I know). And as we are tired and want to get to sleep our stress goes up, they pick up on it and get more defiant. I have a boy that is the nicest sweetest boy. Well, one day my new girl got out of her into room (my fault) and they go into it in another room. He growled at me for the first and only time as well. I know how you feel, it is like wow. And it does increase the stress. My new cat peed all over due to fear. It was awful. I realized that if it ever happened again (and it did) I had to be extremely relaxed and chill. Like "this is no big deal". I knew that the first time but it is easier said than done. Well, the next time it happened I was more relaxed (of course I had time). And it resolved peacefully. They don't really want to fight but they are scared and defending themselves. SO I would say if it happens next time try to focus Ember on you and try to calm the situation down and hopefully he will leave on his own (because Ember will be preoccupied with you). Of course, it is hard when it is late and you are tired.

(6:00am) Did you see what happened before she slapped him? If you see tension etc then try to distract. Call one of them, if you can safely pet them or calm them down that is great. Get them to focus on you or anything but each other. Anytime a person can help them avoid a confrontation then it is a building block to success. I tend not to like to take territory away. It is not always easy (because of time constraints) but if you can keep one near you or kind of keep them from focusing on each other then it is better. Now sometimes one has to physically separate them but unless there is a real fight where someone is in danger of being hurt I tend to try to avoid that. Now jumping on a shelf could have been interpreted as being prey so it isn't surprising that Ember would slap. If you see it try to reassure them. "It's ok" in a calm confident voice. Get them to focus away from each other. Things like that.

(7:40pm) - When this happens I tend to try to get them to separate. And then try to play individually. So I try to get one in another room with treats. Then bring the toy and try to play with the other one. Now the fact that they eat treats together no problem is GREAT and a sign that we will succeed. They are food motivated. I agree, at that point, feeding is a good idea and skipping the play is fine. Because after they eat they should get more lazy and calm down. It sounds like there is a bit of a power struggle going on.

(8:00pm) - Make sure it is a positive experience. So if Ash starts that maybe pull out a treat (at this point a treat or two isn't so bad). So that Frost can eat. Now maybe Ash will still try to eat. Try to get his attention and give him love. Distract him with love so he feels it is a positive rather than potentially viewed as a negative "not allowed" to eat. Eating is always so tricky with multiple cats especially when one eats slower or later. I always end up petting, rubbing etc with the one that is trying to eat more than they should be so as to free up the food for the one that needs it. GREAT!!!! The situation resolved itself. That is what we want!! GREAT job. Sometimes just reassuring words, being calm and confident is all that is needed. I think they are definitely a little on edge, a little stressed. Just try to get them as relaxed as possible, get them to just hang out, purr etc. Just tr yo your best to be as calm and confident with them as possible. I often tell them its ok" in a calm confident voice. Pet them and get them to purr etc.

(9ish) - When that happens try to then play with her further away from him. I am guessing Ember's movements were too fast and seemed threatening or like prey. The good news is Ember didn't react to the slapping. I am surprised that Frost actually jumped on her. I wonder if he was trying to play? If I was Ember I would leave too. That was a good way to defuse the situation.

(10:30) - hissing is communication so if it didn't result in a fight then it did its intended job.

Ash peeing on a towel - it could be either. I am guessing it is stress but it could be a UTI. If he keeps doing it we'll know it is probably a UTI. I think the stress is pretty high right now for some reason. Try to be as calm and confident as possible and try to just hang out and chill out with them. Be reassuring, comfort them, etc. Anything to get them to de-stress. Don't worry about play for now. Just positive encounters, purring, chilling out, laying around etc.

Stella was definitely smelling something if she was that focused. It could be an unknown animal and that makes a lot of sense. All you can do is what we talked about. Being reassuring etc. Animals coming around is something we can't control. Anytime you sense they are a bit "on edge" try to be calm and confident around them. Getting them to purr, just hanging out with them near you. Things like that.

Ughhhhhhhhh, I hope it wasn't a bad burn. When it rains it pours. I am guessing that is adding to the stress also. You will get through this. Just take a deep breath and try your best to just accept what it is and be as calm and confident as possible. It is easier said than done but try your best. Our stress can definitely be picked up by the cats.

Please do not feel bad. I am not here because I have to be, I am here because I want to be. If I am needed then I will try my best. Being positive also helps us with stress and cats like positivism also. I think cats pick up on it so it is great you are focusing on the positives.

Yes, I was going to comment on that. I LOVE that they are getting along so well!!

That is really cute. She is either bringing you "presents" or wanting to play. Either way it is terrific.

Well, getting traps and paying for the spay/neuter is great. Check the Alley Cat Allies list and see if someone can help. Explain you need help and that the rescue is willing to pay. Also, contact the person that mentioned the rescue and explain the situation. Sometimes when someone is persistent and wanting to do the right thing someone will help. There is still hope.

Yes, it can really work. You'll know a dog that isn't cat friendly and they are more rare then you think.

I hope my answers are somewhat understandable. Just ask for any clarification. Just try to really be as calm and confident as possible, get them to be distracted way from each other diffusing tension, just hang out and relax with them keeping them focused on other things then each other. Things like that. It is common to go through things like this. On a scale of 1 -10 1 being perfect 10 being untenable your situation is really a 3. Don't worry, it happens, it is normal, it may not be perfect but they are happy well taken care of cat with a great home. By the way I think my home is a 2. I don't think 1 exists very often.

Hang in there. PLEASE do not be too hard on yourself, you are doing a great job!!

 

[Animal Freak]

I think fear may play a part, but I don't think it's the whole issue. Normally, outside of "her" territory she cowers in fear, but instead she raises her hackles when passing these dogs. It seems a little more like excitement and a tinge of aggression, whether fear based or not, rather than pure fear. And I'd rather not risk it, honestly. I don't want to reward that behavior and her think that's how she should react. And petting might work as a reward for some dogs, but it's nowhere near good enough of a reward for Stella.

I honestly try not to think of the issues too often so I can avoid being stressed/frustrated. I mostly reserve thinking about it for when it happens and when telling you about it. And I wouldn't be worried about it if it only happened once it a while, but two+ times a day doesn't really seem to be "once in a while" to me. The only reason I'm not really worried about it is because they get over it so easily and I know they actually have a good relationship besides those issues.

I am going to be working on them in my room more, but I have to figure out just how to go about it. It doesn't seem like she's willing to have him in there. I guess I'm going to play with her alone in there and then bring Ash in with treats and hopefully get her to be okay with him before trying to play. I'm probably going to have to work on them in my room every day. I always quit doing it once Ember gets over his presence in there, but it always reverts back.

I could definitely see Ember being the kind of cat who doesn't take well to not being able to have my attention whenever she wants. And she did bring me a lot of toys Wednesday night and throughout the day Thursday. She was bringing them closer to me than usually too.

(11-12) I have no idea who hissed or why. If Ember hadn't reacted to it, I would have brushed it off as something I heard in my head or perhaps dreamed because there were no indications of any issues between the boys. They were in the exact same places they were in when I went to sleep. And I do understand the concern about rushing it and that carrying Ash out probably wasn't the best, but I can't say I regret it. I was tired, slightly irritated at being woken up, and a bit frustrated with it all. I was, in no way, in the mindset to be working with cats. I don't see Ash leaving on his own in that situation either. The way my room is set up, he couldn't have done so without walking past Ember. Even if he attempted to do so, he'd have to jump off the cat tree which could set Ember off. Ash doesn't come to his name unless he knows he's going to get something out of it and even then it's iffy. I don't think toys would have gotten anyone's attention with how tense they were. Treats are the only things that consistently work with all of them, but I'd get the other two running to me before he ever even thought about coming. And it was the middle of the night, my mom was sleeping. I was trying to make minimal noise and couldn't exactly shake a container of treats to get his attention. And getting Ember's focus is a lot easier said than. When she gets like that, she wants nothing to do with me. She won't let me touch. I could probably put a toy on her head and not even get a second's worth of focus from her. Treats are the only thing that works and only until I stop giving them to her. Then she goes back to staring him down. I was running low on treats too. It was, honestly, just a very bad situation.

(6) They were sort of behind the computer desk(the desk doesn't have any bulky sides to it with the only flat surfaces being the top and two open shelves on the side) going into the hall, so I couldn't see well. It looked like they just crossed paths. At least nothing dramatic happened prior to the that. I would have noticed any sudden movements or noises.

(7:40) I will try playing individually and maybe slowly introduce Ash into play sessions in my room. I would have put more time into it, but honestly I didn't realize it had gotten so late. I went out to get some more catnip when I happened to look at the clock on the stove and realized it was time for them to eat. And hungry cats often make for crabby cats, so I doubt that was helping the situation.

(8) I will try that. Lately I've been getting really frustrated with Ash and his attempts to eat Frost's food. I know that's not good. Maybe a different approach will help. It's just irritating that he not only does it right in front of me, but will go right back immediately after. He's never been so pushy or persistent about this before. Even Ember isn't like that and she's the most food motivated one of them.

I was quite proud of Ember for walking away from the situation. I didn't think she would. She was basically trapped between Ash and the cabinets and had every reason to try to defend herself what with him hissing and growling at her like that.

(9) I'll certainly try. My room is just so small though, it's hard to do much of anything. And Frost is usually so peaceful I don't really expect it from him. The slapping definitely wasn't playful and considering the attack happened only a moment after that, I'd say it wasn't either. If it was, then that was a very quick change of mood. I don't think even Ember is capable of that.

(10:30) This wasn't really so much a concern as something I felt was worth noting, especially with all the other drama happening throughout the day. It was kind of odd, but not something I'm worried about. Frost seems to be getting kind of sensitive though.


I'm hoping it is just stress. Not that I like him being stressed, but going to the vet so he can get shots isn't fun for anyone. My biggest thing is that I hate the idea of him possibly being in pain for any period of time and I'll feel bad if we figure out this is a UTI and we left it despite knowing something was wrong.

She's been smelling something lately, but I'd no clue what. It could be a cat. But it could also be that squirrel that's stealing the bird food. It's been on the porch a few times though and I don't think she's reacted that way to the smell of a squirrel. I'm leaning more towards cat, possibly dog. A neighbor did say he saw a dog running around the other day though it was only seen the one day. And Stella didn't react territorially like I'd expect, so a cat seems like the most likely option, especially since my mom saw one not that long ago.

The burn wasn't bad. My mom seemed to think it was pretty bad, but I was laughing at my own stupidity pretty much immediately and it didn't end up blistering though my mom thought it would. The water was more of a problem to me since that's mostly what I drink and I needed to refill water bowls and most of our options for dinner required water to cook. I do think I'm at least relatively good at accepting things as they are. Maybe not the best, but certainly not the worst. I tend to not waste time thinking about things I can't change.

I do try to look at the bright side, at least with them. I can be pessimistic, but I can't afford to be that when it comes to them. If I was, I wouldn't have them all because I wouldn't believe I'd be able to fix the problem. And, while I do question if keeping a third cat was the right option, going back to two isn't even a consideration right now.

I love that they're getting along so well too. At least I don't have to worry about that. Stella does well with them. She could use a little more confidence, but other than that she's a pretty good dog to have around cats.

I'm pretty sure it's sort of an offering. Like "Look, I brought you this toy, so please give me attention now." And I think she's figuring out the closer she brings them, the more willing I am to give her attention. It's really adorable. I like seeing her carry the toys because they're so big for her mouth.

Yeah, I'm going to keep looking. I don't know what I'm going to do if I can't find anyone. I feel like I've dedicated myself to do this and to not get it done means I failed. And I don't want to let these cats down, but if I can't find anyone I don't know what I'll do. My dad might be willing to help, but I'm not there often enough to really do much and he has to work.

I don't think most dogs are really cat-aggressive. I think it's usually that the dog doesn't know it's own strength or has a strong prey drive. But Stella's proven to me that a prey drive can be controlled and eventually tapered down. She hardly even reacts to running rabbits anymore.

I don't think I've ever had any difficulty in understanding anything you've said. And I'll definitely work with them more. I'm not sure how, but I will. I'll make this work somehow. I'm starting school this week and my mom only has one good arm currently, so it's going to be a bit hectic, but I'll figure it out.

I'm confident(and I'm never confident) in saying that my house was once a one. Before Midnight II came and had her kittens, there was never an issue between the boys. They never once hissed, growled, fought, or showed any signs of displeasure with each other in the three years that they were the only animals. They got along fantastically and still do. Even after Midnight came in, I don't think I'd say it went up much. She was highly cat aggressive, but it was mostly controlled by keeping them separate and she was very friendly to us. When we introduced the kittens to the boys, there wasn't much of a problem either. All this drama is really more of a recent thing. Maybe within the last 2-3 years?

I'll manage one way or another. They mean too much to me to do anything else.

 

[calicosrspecial]

It is tricky to know. I have seen dogs behave in all sorts of ways. Some only attack after being threatening. Some attack as a good defense (if I am attacking then they need to be on the defensive). Some just like to be boss and attack. It is so hard to know. I would try to reassure to see if it is more fear based. Some dogs never get out of it. I would try different things and see what might work.

That is good. Yes, the rebounding quickly is very good. But we do want to get them to get along a bit better. 1-2 times a day isn't great but I guess I have seen so much worse that it isn't too bad. Of course, we don't want this to build and become a real problem.

I think that is a good idea. Some cats are more territorial than others. The more secure she is in there and the more she associates him being in there with something positive and good the better it will be.

Yes. Some cats are definitely more in need of that. I have one like that that is more "needy". Sometimes when cats don't exactly get accepted (usually the last one in) they have that trait.

(11-12) - Yes, it is hard. All we can do is our best. Usually the cat (Ash in this case) would tend to avoid getting in that situation again. Let's hope he is more cautious going forward so it doesn't happen again.

(6) - Sounds like it wasn't too bad. It actually could have been a bit playful. Cats like to paw at a cat above (and vice versa). At least it ended without issue.

(7:40) - That sounds like a good idea. Yes, it happens. Things get late, or rushed. And then if we run around it can get them amped up and then they are hungry. Happens all the time.

(8) - Yes they do this. They get into these moods and do things like this. It could be Ash acting out. Or it could be something innocent (like he is hungry). And cats do usually like what others have. Making it positive and just trying to stay positive towards the cat is important. Cats can take on our emotions so the more frustrated we become the more they can act out. I battle my two male ferals wanting to take the food of one of my occasional ferals. It never fails, they want what is his. A territorial/dominance thing in my case. I have to distract and pet and play with my ferals while the occasional one eats (cautiously).

YES!!! I AM PROUD of Ember so I can imagine how proud you are!! That is great and a big sign that things are moving in the right direction (albeit unevenly at times).

(9) - tight places can always be an issue. Think about trying to set up escape routes. High, low, different directions. The more often they can see a route to avoid the more likely they will choose that.

(10:30) - Yes. It is odd that Frost is getting upset. I am wondering if it is an outside influence. That the tension/defensiveness level is higher. Oftentimes it is a cat or other threat (or perceived) that causes anxiety and unease.

I know. It is hard to weight the pros and cons of doing etc. It is always tricky. We can solve the stress. the UTI will need a vet. I think we will know soon if it is a UTI. Ugghhhhhh, it is never easy to make the best decision.

It s definitely something. Your deduction is logical. An intact male definitely can cause issues.It could be another animal. So hard to know. But it could be a source of the issues.

Well that is good. I am so glad it wasn't too bad. That is good to accept what can't be changed and do your best to deal with it. That is the best way to deal with it.

That is good. Things tend to work out as well. We all have doubts about what we do. Adding a cat, etc. But the main thing is we do our best which you are obviously doing.

Agreed. And yes, she is a great dog to be around cats. It is also nice that Ember has another friend.

Yes, I agree.It is really cute. I can imagine it.

Well keep digging around and she if someone can help. Then when that is exhausted we'll figure out what might be next.

I agree. Yes, it is probably more prey driven. Some breeds are more instinctively more dangerous to cats though but that is a generalization (not all in those breeds are).

The best thing is try to be as calm and confident around them as possible (even when cooking or cleaning etc) and do what else you can do as time permits. Try not to stress about it. Even when things are busy and hectic just try to slow down a touch so that it seems more normal. Doing that (even though it is not directly with the cats) could be helpful. Cats take on our emotions so the more calm and confident we are the more they are.

That is great. That means you know how to achieve it. Sure it is the cats but it also is the humans. You can improve this, I know it. Just don't worry and we will get through this. We have a plan that does work and sure we may have to adjust but we will get there. They were doing well, there is this little uptick in unsettledness and we can get back to normal.

I know you will. I have no doubt about that. The cats are all good cats and you have the knowledge and desire. That is a recipe for success. Don't worry, we will succeed.

 

[Animal Freak]

Well, Stella's only attacked my aunt's pitbull when we were at my grandma's house. And her behavior was completely different just outside on the sidewalk. Face-to-face with a dog outside her territory, she never raises her hackles or growls. She lowers her ears and tucks her tail in. If nothing else works, I'll try reassurance, but I really don't want her to learn that that's okay. My first thought is to try to figure out how I can wear down some energy and see if that helps. Then treats for proper behavior.

Sometimes it's 3-4 times a day though and that gets a bit worrying as well as frustrating. I'm almost always calm in the moment though. I find I'm thinking more on what I can do to get them to calm down and it's afterwards that I get to thinking about the frequency of these attacks and the problems it could cause.

Yeah, I'll definitely get them in there more. I just have to convince Ember to let Ash be in there without attacking him.

It's funny because when she was younger, I definitely got the sense that she wasn't really "part of the group," but now that the boys have kind of split up, it seems like she's actually closer to them than they are to each other. Especially with Ash. But she's still more my cat than a cat-cat.

(11-12) We'll see. I'm sure he'll avoid my room for a little while, but I bet he ends back there eventually. He always does. And if he's in my room, he's probably on the cat tree since he likes being on them and that's the only one in my room.

(6) I won't pretend I really know. I find I just sort of know if it's playful or not without even knowing why or how I know and I don't question it. But I'm not really sure how accurate I am. Sometimes there's rather little evidence it's aggressive, but I'm still sure it is.

(8) I'll certainly try, but I'm afraid I'm not going to have much time in the mornings. I don't have much time in the evening either since that's when I do chores, but I can figure that out. I was wondering if maybe this new food wasn't filling enough for him. I'm still sort of struggling to figure out how much I should be feeding of what, especially since we didn't end up with the extra money like I thought we were going to. But neither of the other two seem to have a problem. Not that Frost is much to go off of, but Ember is extremely food motivated and the fact she's overweight pretty much proves she'll eat more than she should, and she doesn't steal food like that.

Haha. Definitely unevenly, but yeah. I'm glad she's gained confidence and I hope she continues to.

(9) I'll try to think of something. I don't know what, but I'll try. It's just such an awkward area. Like, right when you walk into my room it's really narrow. And the door opens in so it has to have room on one wall which already has hooks for my jackets and stuff. The opposite wall has my closet door. And right when that ends I have a bookshelf, so there's no room for anything there. I could, maybe, move the cat tree over there? Or perhaps there's some sort of little raised platform I could get? Neither would be especially convenient, but I'll do it if it helps. I think the hall needs something too, but I don't know what.

(10:30) I don't know and I don't know if I want it to be an outside influence or not. If it was something I could easily take care of then that would be great. But if it's an animal, I don't know what to do. Definitely work on my cats' confidence levels, but I have no desire to chase off any animals even if I had the means to.

Yeah, we'll find out. I hope it's just stress. I hope it's not stress causing a UTI though.

I think the two likely suspects would be a cat or an opossum. We have had an opossum get into our backyard a couple of times when the gate was open, but it's been fixed so it doesn't get blown open anymore. We do occasionally throw food out though. I don't think we have recently so I'm not sure why it would all of a sudden be so close to our porch and Stella's never done that before. But who knows?

I hope a bigger house helps them, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen for a while longer. A couple of years at least.

Well, "friends" might be pushing it, but they do get along well, especially when Ember is so insecure and wasn't used to dogs. I'm happy with their progress. Very happy.

I will. There's at least a few more people I can ask and I'll inform the women I emailed what the organization told me.

Yeah, hunting breeds aren't the best choice to have around cats. They were literally bred to chase small moving things. Herding dogs aren't great either, but cat be trained. And my cousins had a hunting dog they used to hunt birds and that dog was fine with the cats.

I'll keep that in mind. And, of course, I'll always make time for them. Ember knows how to get attention out of me and I always try to make sure I have time to sit down and do something I want because I stress too easily.

I am hoping things settle down. Maybe a feral was passing through or something. I did find out I can get a refill for Feliway for $11 on Chewy so I might get that. If I know where the plug-in is...

They're all great cats. I got very lucky with them since they're all so sweet and friendly. Ember might have been unplanned and sort of an accident, but I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[calicosrspecial]

When I think of reassurance I am more thinking of "don't worry, it's ok" rather than "good girl" type stuff. Not sure if that makes sense. There is just a little bit of a difference in the way I do it but it is really hard to explain. Have you tried a stern "no"? Amazing she tried to get a pitbull. A lot of pit bulls are such sweeties and softies maybe that is the reason.

Yes, I wonder if it is excess energy or they just keep going into each others space (competing for territory). Try to see if there is any possible reason for them. Anything common. Place, time, etc.

Yes, the key is to make it enjoyable, non-threatening, positive. Making it a "non-event" and a positive encounter.

It is interesting. She has been closer to Ash lately. That is why it is so strange and why I wonder if it is somewhat playful. MY one feral LOVES the other but they get into it too. Then they are eating together, rubbing on each other etc. But there is a bit of a power struggle as well.

(11-12) - It will be interesting to see what he decides to do. Your theory seems right.

(6) - It is hard to know. And cats are different with different cats. The good news is they never really fought and hurt each other so they have chosen to not hurt each other so that is a positive.

(8) - Just do your best. It could be. Or it could be medical beginning (thyroid, etc). It is just hard to know. It could just be him wanting what isn't his (normal cat behavior). Just do your best and let's see how he reacts.

Agreed.

(9) - yeah, it can be tricky. Areas like that tend to be issue areas where stuff happens. But it didn't seem to be too big of a problem before........

(10:30) - It is really just confidence building. Eventually the animal moves on.

Has he done it again? Or has it been ok the last few days?

I am guessing it is a cat but it is hard to know. If there is marking going on you would be able to smell it.

A bigger house can help and sometimes it doesn't. It just really depends. I wouldn't worry, it can be done in studio apartments. We'll be able to handle it.

Yes, it is very good.

That is a good plan. Let's hope someone can help.

Yes. Agreed. Interesting your cousins hunting dog was good with cats. Very cool.

Sounds good. Just do your best.

It could be. That isn't too bad if you think it will help (and you find the plugin).

They really are. I will say a cat reflects the environment. So the humans are very important. I have seen great cats change for the worse and naughty cats turn nice depending on the humans. You and your mom are doing something right that they are good cats. Ember is a sweetheart. It seems like you and she have a very special bond. Very cool. Worked out well.

 

[Animal Freak]

It makes sense, but, while Stella is very smart, I'm not sure she'd be able to pick up the difference too well. If it is fear then it would work. But if it's not then she could very well think I'm trying to reward her. She listens to my tone more than any words, so if I use the wrong tone she'll think I'm happy with what she's doing. I do tell her no and usually give a light pull on the leash. And I do mean light. My goal isn't to pull her away or anything, just to give the signal that she needs to look away. While perhaps not the best method, I already taught her what different things mean with the leash. So lifting slightly up on the collar and away means to look away from what she's staring at. And yeah, Prince was probably the calmest, most patient, friendliest dog ever. My aunt said a tiny Chihuahua attacked him and literally hung off his lip. He was nothing more than a lap dog.

Well, two attacks happen around the same time. Once at night and that has a wider range. I'd say usually anywhere from 10p.m. to 12a.m. The morning attack usually happens around 6:30 to 7 which is right after they're fed, but I end up going back to bed since I don't need to be up that early. And there was, of course, the tension in my room.

It is really weird. I mean, it wouldn't be so odd if they were just tolerating each other to begin with, but they actually seem very close. At least in cat standards. They can literally go from snuggling to fighting in half an hour or perhaps even less. Could it be partly because of that? She's finally "part of the group" and has the chance to move up in the hierarchy? It seems unlikely. I never even really noticed a hierarchy before. They've been getting along for a while now, but who knows? They are cats.

(8) Well, I only question the food because he wasn't like this before. They've never been so pushy or so persistent before. Sure, there might have been the occasion where they'd push someone out of the way, but really not often. And they've never been so determined before. I hope it's not medical! Knowing him though... Do you think he should be checked? Can we put it off? Maybe bring it up when/if he gets another UTI and has to go for shots?

No, no more peeing that I know of. I think it might have just been stress. I hope.

I have a terrible sense of smell, but my mom would probably smell it.

I think a bigger house would help keep them from being on top of each other. And maybe there won't be so many tight spaces. Not to mention we'll be more willing to put shelves and whatnot up for them to have more escape routes.​

I got home from my dad's last night. I put catnip on the floor in my room and played with them in there. They all got along fine. Ash even went in there with me and ran ahead of Ember. She was totally okay with it and I didn't have to play with her first or anything. There were some minor conflicts, but nothing I didn't expect. My room is so small that, with three cats in it, it's pretty much impossible for one to run and not end up too closer to another, so there was a bit of slapping, but contact was only made once. That was when Ember ran pretty much right up to Ash and she lifted her foot like she was considering whether or not she wanted to slap him, but Ash beat her to it and slapped her. She just walked away though and they never touched each other after that.

However, she did attack him the next morning. She went after him, I split them up and went back to back. She did it again. So I brought her into my room and petted her and played with her for a few minutes. Well, for some reason Ash decided it was smart to come into my room right then. And he got attacked again. I kept Ember in my room for a few minutes and there wasn't a problem after that.

Tonight I did the same thing. Catnip on the floor. Start with the laser light. Move on to the string which I walked through the house with. Then I added a brief training session in there and petted them all afterwards. They did great right up until the end. No slapping, no tension, absolutely nothing. Even running past each other, they were fine. When I was zipping the treat bag up, Ash all of a sudden slapped Ember and ran a couple of feet off before turning around and hissing. I have no clue what caused it. They had been right next to each, no problem. Well, Ember of course charged after him. However, it ended in the hall right outside my room. I don't know what made Ash stop, but he did and she did too. Ember's fur never fluffed up, her tail was in the air, she came right back to me like nothing happened. I got the treats back out and had her do tricks for them which she did. Ash came right back and all three of them with within inches of each other again. It was like nothing ever happened. I really believe that her going after him was more of her putting him in his place and letting him know she wouldn't tolerate being bullied rather than a reaction of fear or anything like that. And I'm actually really proud of Ember. She stood up for herself, but she didn't lose control. She was very calm and forgave him quickly, but let him know that that behavior wouldn't be tolerated.

But, while Ash hasn't been on the cat tree again and, coincidentally or not, he didn't seem to get too far into my room, he did not avoid going in there. They were both rolling around on the floor with the catnip with exposed bellies and they seemed very relaxed, so it really might not have even been intentional, but he did almost always have the exit nearby.

Also, does catnip go bad? I found a little tube of it and I've no idea how old it is. It might have been from the toys I got them for Christmas or it might be a couple of years old. I don't know. I was worried it wouldn't have an affect due to the age, but it seemed to affect them just as much, if not even more than usual. I could see it in Emer's movements which were very fast and sharp, but not tense.

Yeah, I don't know how my cousins managed that. I'm not sure the dog had many chances though. When she was inside, she was usually tied to the stove and had rather little room to roam.

I have no idea if it would help. We didn't notice a change last time, but we're not always the most observant people. If things done calm down in a few days, I'll order it. For now I'm going to give Ember plenty of exercise, mental and physical, get them together in my room, and give them part of a calming treat in the morning and in the evening.

I guess we're doing something right. They're all pretty well behaved and I've never had to deal with a teen-phase, so that's something. Ember really is a little sweetie. I honestly almost chose her brother. He had the sweetest temperament. Took after his mother. He was always in my lap. It was due to some miscommunication that my mom rehomed Coal and we kept Ember, but I think it was for the best. Coal could have been happy in any home, but Ember needs a specific kind of person. Someone willing to deal with her insecurity. That's one mistake I don't regret. I do miss Coal though. The lady who took him used to update us on him, but quit rather quickly.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That makes sense. Some dogs do respond better than others. Wow, that is a sweetheart (Prince).

Yep, those are the times that can be challenging. Cats like to be up then and sometimes they like to have some "fun". Those are times in my household where scurrying and chasing happen. I think it is somewhat driven by boredom and those are times they tend to like to hunt. I am actually less worried given those times because of the above. It is hard to explain but cats at those times like to get up to mischief after resting most of the day and some of the night.

Sometimes when cats do become closer they are more willing to "tell" the other one when they are annoyed etc. In my experience, when cats are further away they are more cautious so stay out of each others space etc. But when they are closer they tend to get into each others spaces and bother each other easier. And when they know the other one will not hurt them they are more likely to swat or chase etc because they know the risk isn't that great as opposed to an unknown cat that might go to do harm. My two ferals (that at one time wanted to literally kill each other) do this all the time. One minute they are rubbing on each other the next pawing and getting aggressive then they settle down and get along again. They never hurt each other though sometimes it does seem awfully rough.

(8) - It could be because he loves the food so much. It could be a competitive thing as well. It is tough to know so we have to keep monitoring. It could be medical (thyroid) but there would be other symptoms. I think we should monitor and see what happens. I don't think right now that I would think it is medical so I don't think it is necessary to take him in. But let me know if you notice any issues.

Yes, if it hasn't happened again it was probably stress. Whew.

She hasn't said anything about any smell? It can be overlooked if it only happened a few times.

Yes, but you would be amazed at how cats want to be near each other more often than not..................

WOW, that is GREAT!!!!!

Hmmmmmm, I really wonder if Ember wants to play with him. Some cats play differently than others. The fact he walks to where she is (and doesn't fear her) tells me that he isn't too worried about her. If there was really tension he would really be fearful, avoiding her. He kind of just shakes it off. Which is a very good sign.

I think you are exactly right in your analysis!! I am proud of them too. I wonder if Ash likes to stir things up and get a rise out of Ember. And Ember is like "knock it off". The fact everything was fine after tells me it isn't anything to worry about. It very well might just be their "game". I have seen that before.

That is great. A cat would never expose their belly to a potential predator/threat. There is trust between them witnessed by their rolling around together.

That is a good question, I have no idea. It seems like it must not (at least in that timeframe) since they liked it.

Ahhhhh, that would do it.

Yes, I think doing what you are doing is great and probably more helpful than spending the money.

I sure think you did a lot right. Things happen for a reason. Ember needed you.

 

[Animal Freak]

Prince really was just about the sweetest dog you could find.

Someone needs to tell them it's not fun for me. Lol. Hopefully we'll be able to fix that. I am getting up early now and Ember seems to prefer to cause trouble when I'm in bed. I couldn't get her to play this morning though. No fight, but she did seem a little wary of Ash for some reason. She was watching him a lot.

That makes sense. They sure have been snuggling on the cat tree a lot. Well, more like Ash all but lays on Ember. She deals with it for a while and then gets up and leaves.

(8) I'll definitely keep an eye on him. Hopefully he won't have to go to the vet any time soon though. Stella's going this weekend. I've been trying to figure out if I could move things around so I'd have more time to guard Frost's food and keep Ash away, but I'm really stuck. Lately I've just been standing in front of Ash when he goes over to Frost and then pet him when he walks away, but it doesn't seem to be working. I'm kind of afraid that getting treats out would stop Frost from eating too.

No, she hasn't said anything. She spends more time out there than I do and she has a pretty sensitive sense of smell.

This is true. And I like that they want to be close. But some more open space would be nice. For all of us. It can be pretty hard maneuvering around with two people, a dog, and three cats.

No, it never bothers him for very long. He's very good at forgiving and forgetting. It's like they have a reset button. His ability to shake it off is why I believe this is worth putting the effort into and why I didn't give up on keeping all three of them. I'm not sure I could put him through it if he was constantly in stress and afraid.

It was really quite impressive how everything just went back to normal. I mean, they usually get over things relatively quickly, but that still usually takes anywhere from ten to thirty minutes. This was immediate. I'm really happy Ember was able to stand up for herself without going all out.

Overall, still no fights. I hope it remains that way. Ember wasn't wanting to play much today. She went after the string a bit, but not the laser light.

Edit: My mom just said she saw a cat run off of the porch, so I guess that answers that. She said Ember was trying to look out the door as she was coming back in, so it's safe to assume Ember knows the cat was there. She seems fine now and was in my room. She's responded to me calling her and has accepted my touch, so she doesn't seem tense. I'm actually kind of surprised at how well she's handling this.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I can imagine. Pit bulls have a bad reputation but it is unfair. All the pitbulls I have met and known have been so sweet. I had one and she was so sweet.

Hahahaha, exactly. They are cats though, they probably wont listen. Hahahahaha. It was probably the change in routine that caused her not to play this morning. Cats are such creatures of habit. Hmmmm, I wonder why she was weary of Ash. Maybe the same reason? Change in routine?

That is great. I wonder if Ember is starting to push back on Ash's desire to be dominant (almost laying on her). But the fact they cuddle etc tells me there is no issue. Sure there may be dustups at times but it happens. It is really cute to think of them so close now. Pretty cool.

(8) - Yes, it sounds like he doesn't have a UTI. You would know him better but it doesn't sound like it to me. But keep an eye out for him. Just do your best on trying to let Frost eat. Sometimes the more we try to prevent the more they want what they can't have (though that doesn't explain why he did it in the first place). It could also be a dominance issue. Maybe Ash is starting to get more forceful on his position? Feeding can be difficult. Just try to distract him if at all possible. Or maybe feed Frost somewhere else (if you can)?

Then it probably isn't spraying. She would smell it. Hmmmmmm, it could just be a passing animal. Stella smelled something. Maybe it isn't the driver of the issues though.

I hear you. I live in a small house also and with all the cat and dog stuff it is even smaller. But as someone once told me, if you have more space it will probably get filled up soon anyway. Hahahahaha

That is a big positive and tells me that the issue is rather small. I have been in households where it is literally one wants to kill the other. And it is really a process. Their reactions after a negative encounter always tells me a lot about the seriousness of the problem. Your situation tells me that things will be fine. We can improve it though.

It is VERY impressive!! Again, that tells me a lot about where we are with them.It may not be perfect but it is not bad.

GREAT. Just keep to a routine and try. She'll play at some point but it is ok if she chooses not to for a while as well. As long as they are enjoying themselves and relaxed then it should be fine.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, ok, this makes more sense. Maybe they are getting used to the cat? It is very good that Ember did not react negatively. Maybe Ash struggles more? It could be a male? Did your mom see if he had a big thick neck and head? Usually if it is an intact male they would be marking but it could be a neutered male and still mark (just not as smelly).

 

[Animal Freak]

It's really terrible what people have done to those dogs. They are wonderful. I will admit, it's not a dog I'd walk up to or anything. Not because the breed is aggressive, but because some people cause them to be. I also feel like some people get them for their intimidating looks and those dogs often don't seem to have any training.

Probably not. It could be the change. There was some of the same problems today, but not as bad. I got her to play with the string a little. She is playing more now though.

Maybe. I'm not sure Ash lays on her to be dominant. It could be intentional, but it seems kind of more like she happens to be laying there and he wants up.

(8) I was actually wondering if maybe he could be trying to assert himself over Frost. He's not a violent cat so I don't really see him attacking like Ember does. But perhaps her going after him made him want to dominate Frost in some way. I am thinking about moving Frost, but the only place I can put him is my mom's room. I doubt she'll appreciate it, but it's not like it takes a bunch of space.

That's true. We'll probably end up with more stuff. But I'd like more space to fill up with cat trees and shelves and whatnot, so it's okay. And living with most of your stuff in boxes really teaches you how much you actually use and what you can do without.

I'm glad we've never had it that bad. I'm sure I'll see some pretty bad situations if I intend on living and working with animals.

I'll try to keep as much of a routine as I can. It shouldn't be too hard since I tend to get pretty stuck in my schedule.

I'm hoping they're getting used to it being around. I'm going to give it a little time and see how my cats do. If they do alright with the cat around I might start feeding it. If I do, it'll have to be the cheapest food I can find and even then, I'm not sure I can keep up with it twice a day. Maybe once. If it sticks around I'll try to get it TNRed though.

Ash seems fine for the most part. No tension or anything. He's mostly relaxed and content with only the occasional issue. Unfortunately, my mom didn't see much. She said it looked kind of splotchy and was apparently large because she saw it across the street afterwards and thought it was a dog before realizing it was the cat.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I totally agree. It is very sad. I think their nature is really one of sweetness and gentleness.

That is good. Just try and go with what she wants and make it positive. But it sounds like today was a good step forward.

Interesting. Cats do like to really cuddle also. Keep trying to watch and see how they react. It is very interesting.

(8) - It very well could be. Is Frost carrying himself any differently? Walking lower, tail down more, avoiding places. Anything like that?

That is a very good point. Yes, cat trees and different views outside are fun for cats.

Yes, me too. Unfortunately you are correct. And it can be frustrating seeing that the animal is not the problem but the humans but the humans wont admit it. It is not easy but the rewards are enormous. Seeing an animal live a happy life after being at risk of something bad.

That is good. Cats love routines so if you can it does make them feel more secure. I know I have a routine and it works well.

I hope so. The unknown can cause inside cats issues but once they realize the cat really isn't a threat then it eases over time. You'll want to make sure it isn't someone's cat before you TNR them. You should be able to tell or just ask around.

That is good (Ash). If it was that big it was probably a male. It makes some sense that he may be causing some issues. In my experience males cause more issues and are more in view than females. If he is intact he may be moving on soon in order to find a female.

 

[Animal Freak]

Yes, I agree.

It took a little bit of effort, but she got to playing today and when she did, she played quite a lot. Not for very long periods of time, but she ran a lot. Normally she crouches down and waits a moment before chasing, then crouches down again and waits, and repeats that. Today there was a lot more running between crouching and waiting.

(8) Hmm... Not that I've noticed. Definitely not avoiding anywhere. Tails are kind of up and down for all of them. I notice that just walking around they usually have their tails down, but if they want something or you call them or really anything involved with people the tail goes up. He's a somewhat hesitant cat. For as laid back and curious as he is, you can see him deciding whether or not he wants to do something. If he walks over you, each step is slow and careful as though he expects to be shooed away. But that's all normal. However, Ember has been picking up Ash's behavior now. She hasn't been so pushy, but she sits right next Frost and stares at him.

Yeah. I can certainly understand not wanting to be the issue, but it seems better to accept it, fix it, and no longer be the cause rather than deny it. But I think the main issue is ignorance. Even people who truly do care don't always know. There's so many things about animals that have been accepted as truth that people don't expect the variances. Like cats being aloof and independent. Or low maintenance.

I would have to hope he's not someone pet. There's way too many dogs in this neighborhood. One being off leashed and no fence though he's old and friendly. Another has gotten out of the yard multiple times. And I know there's opossums. Not to mention the road behind us is the busiest road in town. Leaving a cat out at night like that is absurd.

I am thinking there's some leftover wariness of him though. It might have to do with Ember's lack of play. She seemed alert. Not really tense, but watchful. And she was watching Ash. And Ash has been rather sensitive too. He would not let me brush his back legs at all last night. He slapped(partial claws), hissed, and bit(gently) me and I gave up on it. I don't know if he was just being grouchy or if it actually hurt, but I don't think he's ever reacted that badly even before being put on glucosamine. When I fed them, he was very vocal whereas he usually only really meows towards the end of me preparing their meals and when I'm bringing him his bowl. Rather angry sounding meows and he gave light slaps to anyone who passed him.

Today things have been mostly fine, but not as good as the last couple of days. For some reason Ember has suddenly lunged up at Ash to slap at him and they got into a slapping fight a couple of times. The were all in my mom's room with him on the bed and Ember on the floor last time. He apparently ended up growling at her and we had a fight/chase. It was rather minor. I heard claws on the floor, but no hissing or spitting. The only reason I assumed it was aggressive was because of the slapping and hissing prior. Ember had a really poofy tail, but it slimmed down quickly and she was alright, albeit a little tense. Ash, however, was growling at her. A few treats calmed things down for the most part, but it is a bit odd. Ember has been getting over the fights quickly and hasn't been hissing or spitting lately, but Ash is reacting the way he does after a particularly bad incident. I'm kind of wondering if Ember isn't picking up something from Ash though. With how sensitive he's been, maybe there's some trace of fear or he's being slightly territorial because of the cat, but it doesn't seem constant. He's fine for the most part.

I have been going back and forth on what to do about the cat. I don't want to feed him if he's going to cause trouble with my cats, but it seems like it would be easier to get him TNRed if I did. I'd also kind of like to be able to get a feel for his habits and routines rather than just setting a trap and hoping. But if he moves on, I won't be able to get him TNRed and he'll be adding to the cat population. I'm not sure if I could get him TNRed right now though. I don't really have any way of transporting him.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That is great. The crouching is often the stalking that a cat does in the wild. Stalk and pounce. But running around is great, helps get some of the energy out and burns some calories.

(8) - as long as he hasn't changed then that is good. Yes, sometimes cats do stare. But as long as Frost doesn't look scared or shy away etc then it is just a cat doing a cat thing. Trying to get a reaction out of someone.

I totally agree. Yes, ignorance and ego. It takes a lot to admit a person is wrong or doesn't know but once that person does then they can improve. But ego and ignorance can prevent that and it doesn't help anyone sadly.

I know but people do it all the time. Opossums are really nice so they wouldn't hurt a cat typically. I have opossum and they get along with the cats really well. I often feed the opossums chicken. They are pretty nice animals. Raccoons can be bad for cats but cats usually stay away from them.

Yes, it is very possible. I wonder if he aches or if the hair is matted etc and causing some pulling. Poor guy. Since it is out of the ordinary just keep observing him to see if he is doing different things (like walking or biting back there etc). Something seems to be bothering him. But maybe a cat was outside again. Tough to know exactly. Doesn't sound like it is the other cats though.

Cats do get into it like that from time to time. Though it seems like a lot at the time it is pretty minor and they didn't really fight (they knew not to cross the line). It is good that Ember gets over quickly. Ash could have been defending the bed (his territory in his eyes). It could be he doesn't feel well (you mentioned he wouldn't let you brush him) or the outside cat. Or even the way Ember looked at him. It can be so many things unfortunately. But at least they didn't really fight. Growling is just a way to say "leave me alone". So I don't worry to much about growling in a situation like that. He didn't want Ember to bother him on the bed it sounds like. And it sounds like Ember respected his wishes which is great.

It is always difficult to figure out. Yes, knowing the routine is important. Of course, stinky food in a trap tends to bring cats so trapping is pretty easy especially when they are hungry. I would keep an eye out for him. You can always ask some of the people you have now contacted if there is someone in the area to help transport (and trap). I do worry that if you start feeding the inside cats might react negatively. SO I worry about that. Hmmm, let's think more about this and what the best path is. Personally, I tend to worry more about the females then the males. Ideally trapping everyone is best but if time or money or resources is an issue then I would rather TNR a female than a male. But we have to figure out what type of cat is coming around to your house. If it is a female I would say trapping is more urgent vs a male.

 

[Animal Freak]

Stella went to the vet Saturday. We got her anal glands cleaned out since they were bothering her. We also found out her luxating patella is much worse than we thought. Apparently it's actually worse in her left knee which we've never noticed a problem with. It was always her right knee. The vet said it's probably because there's no resistance. It slides right out and right back in. That's going to be $2,000-$3,000 per a knee. It's going to be a while before we can do that.

Yeah, I accidentally dumped a little bag of catnip. There was a hole in it. I ended up with a giant pile of catnip on my floor. Ember quite enjoyed it and she played a lot. I don't think I've ever seen her play like there. There was nothing subtle or stealthy about it. It was rather amusing to watch.

(8) Definitely no changes. He just ignores them. I'm working on moving him into my mom's room though. That way he can take as long as he needs and I don't have to stand guard. He's a really slow eater and I just don't always have the time to wait for him.

No, it doesn't help in the slightest. People need to be educated on such things, but they have to be willing to learn.

Well, it could still be a risk. Maybe not a big one, but it's there. The dogs are really the bigger concern though. I don't know how late the dogs are let out, but they definitely get away from their owners enough. I had a puppy scare the crap out of me yesterday because he came running up at us. He lives at the house with one loose dog and one chained dog and he looks a lot like the chained dog who is the only dog on the street that makes me nervous. He was friendly, fortunately, but who knows how he'd act around a cat.

Ash is still giving me a hard time with his back legs. The past two times I've had to have my mom help because he just cannot go without being brushed back there. It'll be a lot worse if he gets a knot. And no, there's no knots. I felt around tonight. It's really concerning. I don't know if we can afford to take him to the vet considering we just took the dog. He has no other problems though. He's still jumping up on the cat trees, playing like normal, and all that. It probably doesn't help that I am a bit nervous now. It's not really that I believe he'll hurt me, but that I can't take the risk. If there's one thing my mom won't tolerate, it's them biting or scratching us. And it doesn't exactly feel good being bitten either.

And his being stressed is causing Ember to act up. I saw her slap at him shortly after that and not that long ago my mom said he hissed at Ember and ran off, causing her to go after him.

Well, the growling itself isn't all that concerning. It's just that, based on past history, it's a bit out of place. It's a fairly minor and mostly harmless change, but it is a change nonetheless. I do think something is going on. I don't know if it's his arthritis or the cat outside, but it is something.

There have been some other incidents that are now hazy in my mind. It's been a little bit chaotic. I'm sure that hasn't helped any, but they're doing alright for the most part.

I would be willing to contact someone if necessary. I could potentially feed him on the sidewalk to at least keep him away from the porch and door, but I definitely don't want to stress my own cats out.

I do understand that females are important to get spayed, but I feel getting a male neutered would be great as well. From what I know, males can travel quite far to find a mate, so if he's left intact he'll probably find a female somewhere even if I managed to spay every female in the town. We could very well get a female or two in attempting to get him anyway. My mom saw(why does she see all the cats and I don't?) a tortoiseshell by her car before, so there's probably one nearby.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I am so sorry. That is awful. The poor thing. It doesn't bother her too much though, right? She still moves around well and doesn't seem like she is in pain, right?

Oh my. I can imagine how much she loved it!!!

(8) - Well that is good (no changes). Ignoring is good because it shows that he fundamentally trust the other cats which is great. I think moving him will be fine, just keep an eye on them so that there isn't anything negative that starts happening because he is eating away from them.

So true.

Yes. Cats are pretty fast and agile and as long as the cats aren't too friendly with dogs then they should run and climb a tree to escape. Some dogs go out here today and chased my black cat feral (and he is friendly with dogs so I was worried but he ran away - he was faster than the dogs fortunately).

Hmmm, no knots and he is jumping around but acting funny. Yes, don't risk being biten or scratched. I know he needs to be brushed but if it isn't too bad then see if you can wait until he calms down a bit. Also, when you do try to be very calm and confident when doing it. Ughhhhh, that is such a tough situation. I have been there and I know how tricky it is. Just do your best. I wish I had better advice.

Yes, unfortunately that can happen and things can escalate. I don't think they would harm each other but I know it is disconcerting.

Yes, changes we do want to watch out for. I agree, it is something. There are a lot of mixed signals. If it was his arthritis he would act differently in play and jumping etc. Right? But he doesn't want to be brushed. It is always a challenge to try to figure out what is going through their heads.

Sometimes chaotic does cause them to get a bit jumpy. The good news is it couldn't have been too bad.

That is a good idea. Yes, we don't want to stress the inside cats.

I totally agree. And intact males will really fight each other which is not humane at all. So I agree with you. It is just hard sometimes with limited resources sadly. Yes, I think you would get a female or several which would be great. Oh wow, a tortie. Yes, you mom has all the luck in seeing the cats. I wonder if it is someone's cat or a feral or one that got dumped. Ughhhhh. Yes, it could be good if possible to try to trap and see what you get. I would check in and see if someone is in your area to help and then if the rescue could get them spayed and neutered. A tortie could find a home since they are so unique. I rescued a tortie recently and found her a home no problem which was a nice ending. Fingers crossed!!