Cat intros at a standstill

[cat nap]

We were finally able to let T out into K's space downstairs yesterday for at least half an hour.
T is much more comfortable wandering around, smelling everything - the first time, she was very hesitant.
K behaved mostly well, turkeying at the gate watching (she was still a bit sleepy). But near the end when I wasn't paying attention, T came too close I guess, and K pawed at the gate. T was already leaving so nothing really came of that interaction but I wish I'd been faster at grabbing the treats to distract...
The thing about swapping K into T's space is that T is still too jumpy for us to feel comfortable blocking her access to her safe room, which is where K would need to go. Otherwise, if T isn't out/the gate isn't up, K has full access to the stairs and the upstairs area where T has been roaming.
She just chooses to avoid the area, so I'm not sure what to do about that.

This is excellent about the site swapping.
As long as T gets more, and more comfortable in K's space, and the rest of the house, it will be beneficial in calming both cats down.

So was T at any point, wanting to run back to her safe room?
And was K always sitting by the gate, turkeying, and watching the whole proceedings of T roaming around K's downstairs territory?

Try doing more of these site swaps, and with longer times, to get T better used to all the territory.
Also, if you could get K into T's safe room, to explore, or only to be safely placed, ...so that T can explore downstairs freely,...perhaps T will lessen her jumpy nature.

 

[acari]

And if I happen to be near the action, then I will also come toward them, to see what is going on, and cause them to break up their tussle, if it seems too rough. Usually, though, it is way too fast, and by the time I get there, my cats are heading into different directions, or acting like the other one started it.

I couldn't believe the rubbish that I wrote, above, and wondered if I had started celebrating christmas a bit too early, but I don't drink, so had no excuse for why I wrote that.

It made sense to me as I was reading it! And it puts K and T's actions into perspective too.

And still, sometimes distracting a 'line of sight'....will not actually prevent a run at the other cat, but does momentarily seem to be effective.

I see...well, with K it seems that if we time it correctly with a treat every so often (more often if she's in a twitchy mood) then she will be successfully distracted from running at the gate. But if we wait a little too long...she'll run at T if it crosses her mind.

I was so hoping that K would continue with laying near the gate, and chilling out.
Yes, perhaps putting a 'bed', in the hallway would help. It's worth a try.

Me too...it was kind of a fluke. The cats are teasing me.
I'll move a bed over within eyesight of the gate but not in the hallway - I'm so sure that she wouldn't use anything I actually put near the gate.

If the cats are naturally prevented from approaching the gate, or only doing so on certain occasions, (such as when humans are present), then it defeats the purpose of the gate method.

That does make sense. And eventually they'll have to be left to their own devices when we're busy or away (or asleep). At this point though, K either breezes by and purposefully ignores T, or she'll paw at the gate.

Does it seem to you that both cats are more interested in each other, than they are in their toys?
Does K stop playing with you, only when she hears T, or sees T?
And when K hears T cry at the gate, and stops playing....what does K do then? go away? hiss? run at gate?

I wouldn't say that they're interested in each other but they're being distracted. Or rather, not positive interest or curiosity.
K will keep an ear turned towards T but doesn't want to advertise that she's paying attention to T, so she looks away and glances back every so often...so not at the toy. She's distracted both with listening or looking for signs of T, even if one of us is playing with T upstairs in T's room with the door closed.
Lately, K has been on alert whenever one of us runs down the stairs, because she thinks it might be T (T is like an elephant on the stairs somehow). Not sure why I said that because it has nothing to do with playing though.
T used to be much more interested in K but I think she's kinda over it now. She doesn't really try to talk to K like before. I think when K is playing, and T wants to watch, it's more about the toy that K is playing with...but since she will prefer watching (and whining) over K/K's toy instead of playing with her own toys, I guess she is interested in K.

K very purposefully ignores T whenever she is crying or barking, whether T is at the gate or not. K will react to the faintest sound of a cat outside and run to the window but suddenly is deaf when it comes to T crying.

So was T at any point, wanting to run back to her safe room?
And was K always sitting by the gate, turkeying, and watching the whole proceedings of T roaming around K's downstairs territory?

Try doing more of these site swaps, and with longer times, to get T better used to all the territory.
Also, if you could get K into T's safe room, to explore, or only to be safely placed, ...so that T can explore downstairs freely,...perhaps T will lessen her jumpy nature.

T got spooked a bit by something, but not sure what - she ran halfway back up the stairs but then came back down after a few seconds. So...she sort of wanted to run back and was ready to, but decided she didn't have to.
Yes, K was pretty much turkeying and watching the entire time. She looked away really only for treats.
I think the plan is that after T is more comfortable with the downstairs area (so she won't try to go back upstairs in fear), we can put K inside T's room, or even swap the entire floors again.

=====

I finally got a video for you guys and it's from earlier this evening. It's not a "charging" video, I'm really not sure I can ever get one of those (perhaps explains why they're so hard to find as examples).
But K was already in kind of a twitchy, aggravated mood, and while I didn't encourage the pawing to happen I did see it coming (which is why I was recording).



So right before this video starts, they were sitting looking at each other just as they are in the video - but they were doing that for a few minutes without K pawing. I think she huffed a few times though.
In the video, K suddenly decides to paw at the gate, even sticking her paw through, and making sounds.
I was focused on K while recording so didn't realize that T didn't even go anywhere when this happened until I watched the video again.
K turns around and walks away (this is how she walks away from most interactions with T), brushing up against my partner's leg as she leaves. This is also something I noticed upon rewatching. She is very choosy about when she decides to brush up against us so this must have been on purpose. I have no idea if there's any actual significance to this though or what it might mean.

What do you think?

 

[cat nap]

Here is a GIF of her running toward the gate (because the distance is short, it's not a great example of "charging" but imagine that over a distance of, say, ten feet):

That second GIF you posted is amazing.
To me it only shows that K is treat motivated, and really not interested in T, except for the fact that T happens to get a treat before she does. There is a slight swish in K's tail, but nothing aggressive, or worrying. She looks more interested in the treat or food.

I cannot see that as charging at all. Since K stops steps from the gate, and watches, it looks totally normal.

...but I uploaded a video too of the next thing she did, below.

I hope this uploading worked.
So we accidentally dropped a treat for K too close to the edge of the gate, which made T go for it, and it's pretty clear that K's reaction here was to tell T to back off.
These days we are much better, and more careful, about treat placement.
She does this same type of pawing action even without treats involved now - sometimes she'll just run up to the gate to do this even if T isn't doing anything except lie there.
The low weird sound K makes at the very end before the video cuts off is something that she doesn't do anymore - this kind of noise stopped very shortly after this video was taken. Now she just meows at us and hisses occasionally at T. But I included it anyway just in case.
...

Awesome video, and truly helpful.
Was the 'oh, no' part...because the treat accidentally fell too close to the mesh?
Yeah, that may have been one temptation, too great for K to resist. That's just a 'live and learn' moment. No big deal.
We all have these moments with our cats.

I couldn't really hear any low weird sound, maybe a growl, but really glad that K has stopped that.

I would just suggest that when you have to reprimand a cat, then try to do it with a closed fist, kind of like if you are holding drum-sticks while drumming on a drum. Somewhere I read, that cats may interpret our fingers out, as in 'claws'....so it's better to protect your own fingers, from accidental bites, and use a closed fist.

And that "hey" sound is exactly what I do. (I just add a few more 'heys' in there.)
Your way of 'mmm, mmm, mmm' sound...is way better than my method. Very relaxed sounding and peaceful.

K, independently, came over to an area near the gate (but not at the gate) today to turkey and watch T. Then she came closer when we started doling out treats.
K hissed once at T but I noticed that T was staring at her, so maybe K felt it was aggressive? T really does just stare down anything and everything though.

T has started to cry nonstop if she can't see us or sometimes even if we're just too far away for her taste. It's difficult because everything we do is downstairs (computers, living room, TV, cooking, dining), none of it is in T's "territory". She's getting more desperate for attention/company and I'm not sure how much longer she'll be happy being cooped up behind the gate...

Continue with the site swaps,so as to further progress the intros.
This will also help T in feeling more confident, and less stressed.

If you could, I'd love to see a video where no treats are involved at the gate.

 

[cat nap]

Me too...it was kind of a fluke. The cats are teasing me.
I'll move a bed over within eyesight of the gate but not in the hallway - I'm so sure that she wouldn't use anything I actually put near the gate.

Yeah, you'll find our cats like to tease us a lot.

Lately, K has been on alert whenever one of us runs down the stairs, because she thinks it might be T (T is like an elephant on the stairs somehow). Not sure why I said that because it has nothing to do with playing though.

Actually, it does have something to do with playing. Mostly my cats can be so quiet and stealthy when running around, but they too run and sound like elephants running, while playing, or just because they feel like it. It's hilarious when you hear it. Thinking 'how can a small cat, which can sneak up on me, sound like a running elephant, too.' idk.

K very purposefully ignores T whenever she is crying or barking, whether T is at the gate or not. K will react to the faintest sound of a cat outside and run to the window but suddenly is deaf when it comes to T crying.

From the above, I figure you meant that T is not actually "barking"...unless, you, too, are starting the 'new years festivities' a bit too early....like I did with christmas.
I take it that you meant that K hears cats outside, or dogs barking outside, but whatever, ....as long as K does not directly go to take out any re-directed aggression onto T, then all is well. K ignoring T, or acting like she's deaf to T's crying, is okay.
Maybe a little insensitive, but still okay. Who knows, K may very well hear things on such a strong level, that each mumble or whine from T is listened too, ....hence the ignoring the rest of the louder crying.

T got spooked a bit by something, but not sure what - she ran halfway back up the stairs but then came back down after a few seconds. So...she sort of wanted to run back and was ready to, but decided she didn't have to.
Yes, K was pretty much turkeying and watching the entire time. She looked away really only for treats.

This sounds really good, in the fact that T ran up, but decided to come right back down.

I think the plan is that after T is more comfortable with the downstairs area (so she won't try to go back upstairs in fear), we can put K inside T's room, or even swap the entire floors again.

Excellent plan.

 

[cat nap]

I finally got a video for you guys and it's from earlier this evening. It's not a "charging" video, I'm really not sure I can ever get one of those (perhaps explains why they're so hard to find as examples).
But K was already in kind of a twitchy, aggravated mood, and while I didn't encourage the pawing to happen I did see it coming (which is why I was recording).

(Yeah, those "charging videos" are proving difficult to find.)

Wow, this video is even better than the last, since it really shows how K interacts with T, when no food is around.

So right before this video starts, they were sitting looking at each other just as they are in the video - but they were doing that for a few minutes without K pawing. I think she huffed a few times though.
In the video, K suddenly decides to paw at the gate, even sticking her paw through, and making sounds.
I was focused on K while recording so didn't realize that T didn't even go anywhere when this happened until I watched the video again.
K turns around and walks away (this is how she walks away from most interactions with T), brushing up against my partner's leg as she leaves. This is also something I noticed upon rewatching. She is very choosy about when she decides to brush up against us so this must have been on purpose. I have no idea if there's any actual significance to this though or what it might mean.

What do you think?

Again, a really good video, to see each cat's actions/reactions.
(Play it at normal speed, and then again at 0.5x (speed), to slow it down.)

Was there anything on the floor, in front of T, while she was looking down.?
Perhaps some shredded paper?
It almost looks like K got aggravated when T was looking down, and then decided to paw at the gate.
Afterwards, K does look down again, towards where T was looking. (interesting.)

As for the brushing up against your partner's leg, ...cats usually mark their humans, with scent glands, as a sign of 'ownership' or rather an extension of marking their territory, and things within it,...so perhaps K was marking her human? Not sure.
I also see this brushing up, against us, as a comforting action, as well as scent marking, so that our cats leave familiar scent markers on us. They then recognize and give notice to others, that we are theirs.
I wonder, though, if it is a soothing instinctual action, as well, so that they are leaving scent around them.

 

[calicosrspecial]

" C calicosrspecial I still haven't been able to get any video, it just happens so fast when I'm not there. And when I am there, it usually doesn't happen now because I am blocking the way with a limb or two. But I have a video from one of the very first times the gate was up (not even in the same location in the house) and honestly, K's reactions aren't very different from then. In fact, K's unchanging reactions are what prompted me to make this thread to begin with! It's from 11/21, so more than a month ago." - That video wasn't that bad. Looked to be a power struggle thing rather than a "I want to eliminate you" thing.

2nd Video - So we accidentally dropped a treat for K too close to the edge of the gate, which made T go for it, and it's pretty clear that K's reaction here was to tell T to back off. These days we are much better, and more careful, about treat placement.
She does this same type of pawing action even without treats involved now - sometimes she'll just run up to the gate to do this even if T isn't doing anything except lie there. The low weird sound K makes at the very end before the video cuts off is something that she doesn't do anymore - this kind of noise stopped very shortly after this video was taken. Now she just meows at us and hisses occasionally at T. But I included it anyway just in case. - This is not bad at all. Nothing out of the ordinary or worrying. This is what resident cats do to tell the other cat not to "mess" with them etc. We can totally work with this if this is the behavior.

"K hissed once at T but I noticed that T was staring at her, so maybe K felt it was aggressive? T really does just stare down anything and everything though." - Hissing is just communication. Like us saying "Hey" in an authoritative voice. I am not sure about the staring and aggressive. It would be more body language combined with the staring that might cause it. I wouldn't get too hung up on that.

"T has started to cry nonstop if she can't see us or sometimes even if we're just too far away for her taste. It's difficult because everything we do is downstairs (computers, living room, TV, cooking, dining), none of it is in T's "territory". She's getting more desperate for attention/company and I'm not sure how much longer she'll be happy being cooped up behind the gate... " - Yes, they will do that. Actually, I take it as a good sign that T doesn't seem to fear K as much. We still need to keep them separated.

"with K it seems that if we time it correctly with a treat every so often (more often if she's in a twitchy mood) then she will be successfully distracted from running at the gate. But if we wait a little too long...she'll run at T if it crosses her mind." - Great. If the running is like what was in the first video that is not that worrying. Sure it is not what we want but doesn't tell me there are serious worries.

I am not bothered by K not being at the gate. If T is at the gate and K ignores that is positive in my opinion. A sign of some acceptance.

"At this point though, K either breezes by and purposefully ignores T, or she'll paw at the gate." - I LOVE to hear that K doesn't "go after T" every time. A positive that there is some acceptance happening.

"T got spooked a bit by something, but not sure what - she ran halfway back up the stairs but then came back down after a few seconds. So...she sort of wanted to run back and was ready to, but decided she didn't have to. Yes, K was pretty much turkeying and watching the entire time. She looked away really only for treats." - Anytime there isn't a negative it is a positive.

Last Video - K paws and then walks away and T really isn't fazed. It looks like K is trying to tell T not to "mess around". Almost like trying to tell T "I am the boss around her and don't get into my stuff. You stay in your place". Which is totally normal with resident cats. I love that K walked away.

"brushing up against my partner's leg as she leaves. This is also something I noticed upon rewatching. She is very choosy about when she decides to brush up against us so this must have been on purpose." - Very nice. Rubbing against someone is a sign of liking the person and ownership. Could be a little territorial/insecurity response but nothing at all worrying and overall positive that K feels bonded.

Just keep making those positive associations and positive encounters. Keep distracting in as positive way as possible. I see cats that will get along. Intros can take a month to a year or longer. Your time frame is nothing to worry about. I don't see any terrible body language or anything abnormal. Stay as positive, calm and confident around them as possible. Reassure them that everything is "ok". Catnap is giving great advice.

The videos are really helpful. If you can keep them coming that would be great. Much easier to interpret what is really going on.

Keep up the great work.

 

[acari]

To me it only shows that K is treat motivated, and really not interested in T, except for the fact that T happens to get a treat before she does. There is a slight swish in K's tail, but nothing aggressive, or worrying. She looks more interested in the treat or food.

I cannot see that as charging at all. Since K stops steps from the gate, and watches, it looks totally normal.

K always gets a treat before T, sometimes more than one. But if T is slow to eat hers and doesn't eat it at the same time as K, K forgets that she literally just ate one or two treats and thinks that she didn't get one because she's not eating one but T is.
If K does the same action, or with pawing, after she has run to the gate from a farther distance from what is shown, isn't that "charging"? I mean she's not smashing into the gate with her head or anything so doesn't she have to stop, in order to watch or paw, at some point?
When she decides to run at the gate, it's always a jog or faster, it's not with a calm or relaxed gait.

Was the 'oh, no' part...because the treat accidentally fell too close to the mesh?

Yes...we knew it was a problem, because both cats are greedy!

From the above, I figure you meant that T is not actually "barking"...

Well, she doesn't "bark" exactly but she makes sounds like a puppy a lot, like whining and yipping ("ow" or "owoo" types of noises). Someone near us owns a puppy and sometimes I can't tell if T is making sounds or if I'm hearing the puppy.

Was there anything on the floor, in front of T, while she was looking down.?
Perhaps some shredded paper?
It almost looks like K got aggravated when T was looking down, and then decided to paw at the gate.
Afterwards, K does look down again, towards where T was looking. (interesting.)

Wow, I didn't notice any of these things. Most likely it's paper, because that's everywhere in the house now.
We had just been giving them treats so maybe that's why K was looking for them?
That at least gives us a possible reason for this particular instance, but like I said, sometimes K runs up on her own when we're not nearby or giving treats, and T is just lying at the bottom of the steps not doing anything.

As for the brushing up against your partner's leg, ...cats usually mark their humans, with scent glands, as a sign of 'ownership' or rather an extension of marking their territory, and things within it,...so perhaps K was marking her human?

Yes, I just meant that K doesn't do this often. T seems to be the classic cat, where she winds all around your legs as you're walking or brushing up against you no matter what you're doing, and then I'm assuming it's because she an enthusiastic kitten that she marks everywhere (her carrier, her food dish, her litter box, her cat tree, the wall, the gate...) with her cheeks repetitively.
K marks with her cheeks only a few times a day and only in a few chosen spots (a corner of a table, or a corner of her box). If we open a new box, she'll come to graze her teeth/gums on it once, then she ignores it after. She generally only brushes up against us if she is waiting for her food, or if she is in an affectionate mood (which happens rarely). And if I try to lean a little closer to brush up against her as she walks by, she is a pro at avoiding me.
So to me, it seems that she doesn't really do it for marking territory/people or soothing/enjoying - wouldn't she do it more if that were the case?
Anyway, all that just to wonder why she clearly made the decision to brush up against my partner as she left. Seemed a bit demonstrative, perhaps for T's benefit.

Yes, they will do that. Actually, I take it as a good sign that T doesn't seem to fear K as much. We still need to keep them separated.

C calicosrspecial For now, keeping them separated is the plan, because it's still working out (though it feels like nothing has changed in the last month). But in cat intros, people say to "go at the slowest cat's pace" and to not let them fully meet until both are ready - but what about when the "faster" cat is impatient or if they're strongly resisting being cooped up/separated? Or if being separated is giving them anxiety that it didn't before? I feel like most posts and guides don't cover this part and assume that the "faster" cat will be accepting of the "slower" cat's schedule.
I ask because as time goes on and K isn't doing anything different, T is getting more and more frustrated. And other than allowing her to explore K's area occasionally, there isn't anything else we can do for her that will give her more room or attention.
She is crying much, much more, and I see her trying to look over the stair railing because she wants to jump over.

==========

I also wanted to know something: so when we got K she was at this shelter that has three "rooms" available for meeting cats, one of them with a few crates for kittens or newcomers, and the other two just "open" for cats to roam around (not very large though).
From what I can tell they sort of "test" the cats to see whether they can be put out with other cats roaming freely.
K was in one of these rooms along with a few other cats her age, and also a few six-month-old kittens. Only the kittens were interacting with each other, the other cats were just sleeping or stretching out.
K was turkeying, I remember that.
Actually one of the reasons we convinced ourselves it was alright to adopt T (6 months) was because K wasn't actively fighting the kittens in that shelter room when we met her, she just seemed a bit annoyed at their energy.
Do you think that she could be out with all these other cats because of the shelter environment (new, unfamiliar)? And there was just so much stress that she didn't want to fight?

 

[calicosrspecial]

"If K does the same action, or with pawing, after she has run to the gate from a farther distance from what is shown, isn't that "charging"? I mean she's not smashing into the gate with her head or anything so doesn't she have to stop, in order to watch or paw, at some point? When she decides to run at the gate, it's always a jog or faster, it's not with a calm or relaxed gait." - Charging to me is with more bad intent. More aggression. I did not see that in the videos. So if it is more aggressive then it could be charging. I don't see anything that is serious. Yes, we don't like her to run up to the gate etc but it shows me more defensive rather than really bad "I want to kill you" type charging. It is nuanced but when we see it we know. It is harder for someone without the experience and hard to describe. Other than if the videos are indicative of what is happening it is not something I worry about and we will overcome it.

"(though it feels like nothing has changed in the last month)" - Normal to feel that way but if K is walking away then something positive is happening. And T is building trust that K might run to her but doesn't hurt her and T holds her own. It is all about de-sensitizing the cats, making positive associations, etc. Even if it doesn't appear to be changing the reinforcement is very positive.

"But in cat intros, people say to "go at the slowest cat's pace" and to not let them fully meet until both are ready" - Exactly correct.

"but what about when the "faster" cat is impatient or if they're strongly resisting being cooped up/separated? Or if being separated is giving them anxiety that it didn't before? I feel like most posts and guides don't cover this part and assume that the "faster" cat will be accepting of the "slower" cat's schedule." - We'll see how T and K react when this happens. It would be a sign that T figures the risk of dealing with K is less than the desire to interact. My guess is T will back down and go back to her territory. BUT if T holds her own and K respects that then they are more ready then we thought. We have to see it and respond. Don't worry, it happens all the time. Cats react differently. We can handle it.

"Do you think that she could be out with all these other cats because of the shelter environment (new, unfamiliar)? And there was just so much stress that she didn't want to fight?" - Cats are territorial and fear physical risk, risk to access of food and water and litter box and risk of loss of territory. SO K might not have had "total" ownership of the territory so she didn't "own" it like your home. Most likely. K was T at the shelter and that is easier because they are gaining not fearing "losing" territory. And K learned to trust the other cats. I don't think it was a stress thing. I think it is a very good sign that K could get along. K is going to accept T. We just need to do our work letting K know that T does not pose a threat to K's well being (physical, access to food, water, or litter box, or lose any territory). They are going to be fine. Everything you are experiencing is totally normal.

Just keep doing what you are doing. Positive associations, positive encounters. Keep up the scent swapping as well.

 

[acari]

Other than if the videos are indicative of what is happening it is not something I worry about and we will overcome it.

The video from last night is a good example of the more vigorous pawing she does, it just doesn't include the running up to the gate part. So you're saying this isn't too "aggressive" - that there are levels above this that would be more cause to worry?

We'll see how T and K react when this happens. It would be a sign that T figures the risk of dealing with K is less than the desire to interact. My guess is T will back down and go back to her territory. BUT if T holds her own and K respects that then they are more ready then we thought. We have to see it and respond.

When what happens though? K and T have been exposed to each other through the gate and we're continuing that exposure. It's just that T is getting more frustrated/lonely. When K runs or paws at the gate, T consistently backs away a few steps, then comes back down, and K usually walks away (because we're there at the gate at that point). In yesterday's video T stayed in the same place, probably because she knew K couldn't reach her.
It sounds like you're saying something "else", or another "event" might happen but I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.

==========

We are in the middle of a very long session of letting T out into the living room/downstairs to explore while K is gated away in the kitchen with me. I think K is too sleepy to care that much about T right now.

K was pretty deeply asleep when I brought her over to the kitchen area, but she woke right up when she realized we were prepping for T to come downstairs. She went to the gate and turkeyed but I sat down with my leg in front of her to discourage pawing, and she settled down to watch T, using my leg as cover:


Then, she got up and sat on her scratching pad. She looks especially chubby here because she's kind of scrunched up:


Then, surprisingly, she laid down on the scratching pad:


I was giving her a treat every now and then but she wasn't that edgy so I didn't give her many. Probably because she was sleepy.
T started galloping around in K's paper, making a lot of noise, so K got up and turkeyed near my leg again, close to the treat jar:


She watched T run around for a bit, then even more surprisingly decided to jump up into her hammock (it's further from the gate, you can just see the bottom of it in the previous picture where the blue cushion is on the ground):


She wasn't fully relaxed through all of this but she was slow blinking a decent amount, not sure if she was communicating that she was feeling charitable or if she was just sleepy. Maybe both.

Anyway, she conked out and is still sleeping now, so T is still out as I write this.

 

[cat nap]

We are in the middle of a very long session of letting T out into the living room/downstairs to explore while K is gated away in the kitchen with me. I think K is too sleepy to care that much about T right now.

Then, surprisingly, she laid down on the scratching pad:

She watched T run around for a bit, then even more surprisingly decided to jump up into her hammock (it's further from the gate, you can just see the bottom of it in the previous picture where the blue cushion is on the ground):

Anyway, she conked out and is still sleeping now, so T is still out as I write this.

Fantastic site swap.

If you can do more of this, ...and K learns to relax further, where she learns that this becomes a part of her regular routine, that T becomes part of her regular routine, and K realizes that T is no threat to her territory, ...then this would be more positive steps in this intro process.

In the cat-intro process, you're trying to lessen the 'fight or flight' responses in both cats, to the degree that they become so bored, so accustomed to each other's presence, that they no longer even view the other cat as a newcomer, or stranger to them.

The first two GIFs looked fine to me, and the first video, too.
You've actually progressed an extremely long way, in these cat intros, ...if you look at it from the beginning, and see that gradually, you have managed to lessen K's reactions.
Whatever you are doing,....keep it up....because it is working.

What I worried about, is the 2nd video, in which K is lashing out with her paws at T.
(My theory was initially that K was only striking out with her paws, because she wanted the treats...but then when I re-watched that 2nd video, ...I was not sure what was causing K to lash out, seemingly unprovoked.)
I'm glad that you said that treats were given, right before,...since then my theory is not entirely blown.
However, I realized that whatever may be causing K to lash out, strike the gate, or want to scare or strike at T....it still remains that K needs to lessen this behaviour, before any meetings take place.

It's understandable that we all want cat-intros to go quicker...but the problem is...that if you have a cat, who is still exhibiting signs of aggression, fear, and not yet being comfortable,....then you risk the very real possibility of either cat getting hurt....if you were to rush any meetings.
(That's basically why the 'books' tell you to 'go at the slowest cat's pace'....because it's not to upset the other 'faster cat' or to cause undue stress on that 'fast cat'...but rather to prevent the 'slower cat' from causing any damage to the other cat, and vice-versa.)

The above photos are beautiful, btw,....and really help to understand the cat dynamics that are going on.

If you possibly can, I would try to feed both K and T at the gate....(perhaps placing something underneath the bowls, to protect from spillage). Not putting the bowls too close to the gate....so as not to entice K to lash at the gate....and watching how either cat reacts.
Since K is food motivated, this would help her to keep associating good things with being around T. (not just treats, but actual food.)

Also, continue with the site swaps, and take plenty of videos/photos.
Videos really do help, in understanding what is actually going on.

 

[acari]

if you look at it from the beginning, and see that gradually, you have managed to lessen K's reactions.

But that's just the thing - other than K's initial growling noises, which stopped after just one or two days, K's negative reactions have stayed largely the same (pawing at the gate/at T). If we are generous we might be able to say that K's neutral reactions have changed because she's willing to sleep within view of the gate when T is out - but then, she's just sleeping where she's always slept, so not really sure it's worth counting. Again, if we are generous, I guess it's still a good thing, because K isn't actively hiding from T or anything like that.

What I worried about, is the 2nd video, in which K is lashing out with her paws at T.
(My theory was initially that K was only striking out with her paws, because she wanted the treats...but then when I re-watched that 2nd video, ...I was not sure what was causing K to lash out, seemingly unprovoked.)
I'm glad that you said that treats were given, right before,...since then my theory is not entirely blown.

Yes...it's not only treat-related unfortunately, and that has been consistent - us not being sure what exactly is triggering K other than T just existing, sometimes. But at least half the time it is plausible that it is treat-related (jealousy, competition, etc.) and we try to avoid those situations if we can.

(That's basically why the 'books' tell you to 'go at the slowest cat's pace'....because it's not to upset the other 'faster cat' or to cause undue stress on that 'fast cat'...but rather to prevent the 'slower cat' from causing any damage to the other cat, and vice-versa.)

This makes perfect sense, of course, but what happens if it gets to a boiling point? If the cats continue to not cooperate, and the slower cat refuses to accept, and the faster cat refuses to be kept away? Is that when you have to make a decision on whether to keep both cats...?

he above photos are beautiful, btw,....and really help to understand the cat dynamics that are going on.

Can't help taking photos of K, she's very photogenic even if she's getting fat.

If you possibly can, I would try to feed both K and T at the gate....(perhaps placing something underneath the bowls, to protect from spillage). Not putting the bowls too close to the gate....so as not to entice K to lash at the gate....and watching how either cat reacts.
Since K is food motivated, this would help her to keep associating good things with being around T. (not just treats, but actual food.)

This can't hurt to try, T will eat anywhere so we can put her at the base of the stairs. But K we'll have to move slowly over and see if she'll still be alright each time. T is the food-motivated one, K not so much (she loves it until we try to entice her to do something with it, of course). We were originally unsuccessful with the "feeding on both sides" thing because K refused to go upstairs to eat after a few days - but that was taking her really far from her original location. Now, it'll be closer, so perhaps it'll work.

Also, continue with the site swaps, and take plenty of videos/photos.
Videos really do help, in understanding what is actually going on.

We let T out again in the evening since K was snoozing in her hammock after dinner.
She woke up and turkeyed at the gate, but was more alert than the afternoon session.
T has basically just been running around wildly (it's more room to roam than she normally has) and playing with paper, drinking from K's fountain, etc. She generally avoids the hall where the gate and K are, but she did come over to lie down - though maybe she had wanted treats.
I was giving K treats and only K, no treats for T. But K still tried to paw at the gate, twice in quick succession, even with my leg in the way. T left shortly after.
I tried to have my phone at the ready after that to try to catch more pawing but T didn't come very close, and K was just huffing a bit and watching T, alternating with asking me for more treats.

I have a quick GIF (no sound to note in the original video) of K watching T run past. At that distance K just watches, no danger of pawing. But maybe it's helpful for you to see it anyway? It's not terribly exciting.

==========

I have another question. So in some of the posts or guides I've read, people will mention that cats have a hierarchy and that it's normal for older cats to "teach" the younger cat their boundaries. And this teaching sometimes does include batting at the younger cat, or swiping at them, or actions that might seem sort of fight-y.
So how do you tell if that's what's happening or if the cats are actually truly disagreeing?
Is it possible that K is being prevented from telling T to just leave her alone? For example, I'm fairly certain K likes us but she is still quite aloof and is really not physically affectionate, and not clingy or needy. So I don't know if she's ever going to fully relax or even eventually snuggle with T...I kind of doubt it...

I know that it seems like all of my questions are trying to lead you to say, "just let them meet and work it out and it'll be fine" but I just want to clarify that's absolutely not what I'm looking for, I'm just curious about the things I'm asking about and not necessarily applying them to K and T's situation. And it is not currently in the plan to just throw them together, because then all of our work until now would be a waste!

 

[cat nap]

But that's just the thing - other than K's initial growling noises, which stopped after just one or two days, K's negative reactions have stayed largely the same (pawing at the gate/at T). If we are generous we might be able to say that K's neutral reactions have changed because she's willing to sleep within view of the gate when T is out - but then, she's just sleeping where she's always slept, so not really sure it's worth counting. Again, if we are generous, I guess it's still a good thing, because K isn't actively hiding from T or anything like that.

Sleeping in the open, in sight, or view of another cat, is definitely worth counting. Shows that they are more relaxed, curious, and accepting.
And yes, it is totally a good thing when neither cat is actively hiding from the other one.

Yes...it's not only treat-related unfortunately, and that has been consistent - us not being sure what exactly is triggering K other than T just existing, sometimes. But at least half the time it is plausible that it is treat-related (jealousy, competition, etc.) and we try to avoid those situations if we can.

This is where I get stumped when I'm watching your GIFs and videos,...then the photos of the site swap.
The first three had me seeing K not really being overly bothered by T, just the normal first-sight reactions, where K was still trying to accept T, and also scare her off.

But the video of K lashing out, I couldn't really understand where K's aggression was coming from. Perhaps treats, perhaps paper, perhaps play, or she's just not ready yet, to fully accept T into her territory.
Maybe it is K's style of playing that is so intense, like you wrote previously, that she enjoys pouncing on everything she sees.
But all the above things can be worked on, to modify a cat's behaviour.

Remember when C calicosrspecial said that 'ingrained behaviour' is much more difficult to change, and therefore you try to stop any negative behaviour from starting, or continuing in the first place.
Always try to end on a positive, and also try to remain calm and relaxed throughout the whole process.
This is so true, and this is where all your efforts are paying off, even if it feels like it's at a glacial pace

Then you show a series of photos, where K is again so relaxed, that she happens to fall asleep while T is out roaming the downstairs...so now I'm thinking....well, K cannot be so fearful, agitated or upset,....if she only watches and falls asleep.
This is the part, where again calicosrspecial mentioned that cat intros are usually not 'linear'....a lot of back and forth.

(btw...@calicosrspecial gives me way too much credit, in my advice part, since I only make comments on what I see...I actually have the easier part...."see then comment"....not much to it. She takes the harder questions and answers them.)

It's understandable that we all want cat-intros to go quicker...but the problem is...that if you have a cat, who is still exhibiting signs of aggression, fear, and not yet being comfortable,....then you risk the very real possibility of either cat getting hurt....if you were to rush any meetings.
(That's basically why the 'books' tell you to 'go at the slowest cat's pace'....because it's not to upset the other 'faster cat' or to cause undue stress on that 'fast cat'...but rather to prevent the 'slower cat' from causing any damage to the other cat, and vice-versa.)

This makes perfect sense, of course, but what happens if it gets to a boiling point? If the cats continue to not cooperate, and the slower cat refuses to accept, and the faster cat refuses to be kept away? Is that when you have to make a decision on whether to keep both cats...?

Cats may seem like they are not cooperating, but they are.
Cats are always living in the moment. The slower cat may seem to not be accepting, or showing outward signs of behaviour- modification on a day to day basis...but they truly are.

Once the faster cat, gains confidence, then they may just not want to be kept away, and sometimes finds ways of getting out.
That happens, too.

I don't think that cats ever refuse to work with their humans.

So the decision of whether to keep both cats are not done during cat-intros. It's a time of too much flux.
(I guess I am very biased here, in that I'd never see wanting to give away a cat, unless a small child were involved, and hurt by a cat.
And even then, I'd want to be sure that it was nothing that the adults did, which caused the problems.)
Often times, people don't really exhaust all the avenues available, such as first doing cat behaviour-modification, the vet route of medications, then perhaps asking a vet about a cat behaviourist. There are so many things to try before any thoughts of wanting to give their cats away.) Also, there is nothing wrong with a cat who cannot get along with other cats, living in a room of their own.
At least the cat has love in their lives, and a forever place to lay their heads, be fed, talked to, spent time with,....it seems a much better place than being in a shelter, where they might not get as much attention.(idk...just my opinion.)

Usually, there may be some setbacks, or times where a pause is good, for some cats to gain more time in cat-intros....but that's not the case here.
Sometimes for the humans to take a breather, relax, re-energize, unwind, and pause is also good, in that they come back into the 'cat-intros' with new positive energy, motivation, and much more relaxed.

Can't help taking photos of K, she's very photogenic even if she's getting fat.

Haha....remember....K has 'winter fur'. She is by no means getting fat. She was totally scrunched up in that photo.
And you cannot compare her to little T. T just looks smaller, but fluffier.

This can't hurt to try, T will eat anywhere so we can put her at the base of the stairs. But K we'll have to move slowly over and see if she'll still be alright each time. T is the food-motivated one, K not so much (she loves it until we try to entice her to do something with it, of course). We were originally unsuccessful with the "feeding on both sides" thing because K refused to go upstairs to eat after a few days - but that was taking her really far from her original location. Now, it'll be closer, so perhaps it'll work.

The reason I am asking about this, is just to compare, how K acts with her food bowl, around T, and within viewing sight....as opposed to how she reacts to her treats. It's just a small experiment.

 

[cat nap]

We let T out again in the evening since K was snoozing in her hammock after dinner.
She woke up and turkeyed at the gate, but was more alert than the afternoon session.
T has basically just been running around wildly (it's more room to roam than she normally has) and playing with paper, drinking from K's fountain, etc. She generally avoids the hall where the gate and K are, but she did come over to lie down - though maybe she had wanted treats.
I was giving K treats and only K, no treats for T. But K still tried to paw at the gate, twice in quick succession, even with my leg in the way. T left shortly after.
I tried to have my phone at the ready after that to try to catch more pawing but T didn't come very close, and K was just huffing a bit and watching T, alternating with asking me for more treats.

I have a quick GIF (no sound to note in the original video) of K watching T run past. At that distance K just watches, no danger of pawing. But maybe it's helpful for you to see it anyway? It's not terribly exciting.

It IS exciting.
A acari ...if you can get more of these type of reactions from K....then it's awesome.

 

[cat nap]

I have another question. So in some of the posts or guides I've read, people will mention that cats have a hierarchy and that it's normal for older cats to "teach" the younger cat their boundaries. And this teaching sometimes does include batting at the younger cat, or swiping at them, or actions that might seem sort of fight-y.
So how do you tell if that's what's happening or if the cats are actually truly disagreeing?
Is it possible that K is being prevented from telling T to just leave her alone? For example, I'm fairly certain K likes us but she is still quite aloof and is really not physically affectionate, and not clingy or needy. So I don't know if she's ever going to fully relax or even eventually snuggle with T...I kind of doubt it...

I kind of think that K will eventually let T snuggle with her.
Since K has come this far in such a short period of time, and is still lessening her reactions, then there is really nothing indicating that she won't fully relax.
Just a matter of time,...and all the efforts that you've been doing, in the cat intros.

Yes, totally normal for an 'older cat to teach the younger cat their boundaries'....through batting, swatting, hissing...even fighting.
We're just trying to make the interactions, less of a 'hurtful' fight, and more of a 'playful' fight.

So how do you tell if that's what's happening or if the cats are actually truly disagreeing?
Is it possible that K is being prevented from telling T to just leave her alone? For example, I'm fairly certain K likes us but she is still quite aloof and is really not physically affectionate, and not clingy or needy.

Actually, everything you are seeing right now,...is K 'teaching' T...about her boundaries.
In many cat intros....you will get these type of interactions,....showing us humans,...that the cats are not yet ready to be together.
They are still in the early stages, of 'teaching' each other, about what to expect on their first face-to-face meeting.

Having K aloof, not physically affectionate, or clingy or needy...is not a problem at all. This may change over time, especially now, that you have T in your home, to show her different ways of acting. Also, since cats do learn from each other, then they influence one another too. You'll see this later, in that the one cat may ask their human for treats,..but then the other cat will quickly come by, and also expect to get some treats, or learn how to ask their human for things like playing, affection, or attention,...in similar ways to the other cat. Not always true, since each cat is unique, but very possible.

No, K is not being prevented from telling T to leave her alone.
To me it looks like K actually wants to engage T with her, ...it's just that K still needs to learn to 'soften her reactions', and not be so 'forceful', or frightening to T.
This is just done with exposure, giving positive rewards for ending on good terms, and what you've been doing so far.

You've mentioned that K is not overly affectionate...but would she allow you to place a 'cat harness' on her.
Not for the purposes of taking her outside, or walking, or anything like that...but only to see if she would allow it, and can get used to having one on her. (if you think that she would become too aggressive and try to lash out at you, then no, don't try at this time.)

I know that it seems like all of my questions are trying to lead you to say, "just let them meet and work it out and it'll be fine" but I just want to clarify that's absolutely not what I'm looking for, I'm just curious about the things I'm asking about and not necessarily applying them to K and T's situation. And it is not currently in the plan to just throw them together, because then all of our work until now would be a waste!

That sounds great, about not currently having a plan of throwing them together. Whew.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I am short on time right now but want to respond to some specific things. I will look at everything later today.

"The video from last night is a good example of the more vigorous pawing she does, it just doesn't include the running up to the gate part. So you're saying this isn't too "aggressive" - that there are levels above this that would be more cause to worry?" - Yes. I don't like it and we need to eliminate it but it is not out of the ordinary. It is nothing we can't overcome. I see much worse often. It looks more defensive to me. Which is understandable and normal.

"When what happens though?" - When T jumps the gate and meets K face to face in a spontaneous encounter rather than a controlled encounter under supervision.

The rest of the post from the above questions sounds great. By the way, K is ADORABLE!!! It sounds like K did really well. Doesn;t matter if she was sleepy or not. She was well behaved. Good sign.

"K's neutral reactions have changed because she's willing to sleep within view of the gate when T is out - but then, she's just sleeping where she's always slept" - This is positive. K , may want to keep an eye on T but sleeping within sight is good. I think this is positive.

"This makes perfect sense, of course, but what happens if it gets to a boiling point? If the cats continue to not cooperate, and the slower cat refuses to accept, and the faster cat refuses to be kept away? Is that when you have to make a decision on whether to keep both cats...?" - We are going to be fine. These cats will get along. I deal with situations much worse than this and we get them together. All it takes is knowledge and effort. We will have both. I don't see anything that causes me concern. We will get them together. Don't worry.

"This can't hurt to try, T will eat anywhere so we can put her at the base of the stairs. But K we'll have to move slowly over and see if she'll still be alright each time. T is the food-motivated one, K not so much (she loves it until we try to entice her to do something with it, of course). We were originally unsuccessful with the "feeding on both sides" thing because K refused to go upstairs to eat after a few days - but that was taking her really far from her original location. Now, it'll be closer, so perhaps it'll work." - Feeding by the gate is excellent. Just feed at a distance they will eat at and more a little closer. Anytime K takes her attention off T (whterht eating or some other reason) it is a positive sign.

"We let T out again in the evening since K was snoozing in her hammock after dinner. She woke up and turkeyed at the gate, but was more alert than the afternoon session. T has basically just been running around wildly (it's more room to roam than she normally has) and playing with paper, drinking from K's fountain, etc. She generally avoids the hall where the gate and K are, but she did come over to lie down - though maybe she had wanted treats. I was giving K treats and only K, no treats for T. But K still tried to paw at the gate, twice in quick succession, even with my leg in the way. T left shortly after. I tried to have my phone at the ready after that to try to catch more pawing but T didn't come very close, and K was just huffing a bit and watching T, alternating with asking me for more treats." - A new cat running around (maybe even acting like prey a little) will cause the resident cat to get more on edge and paw. I think K actually did well. The video wasn't too helpful. But K looked good.

"People will mention that cats have a hierarchy and that it's normal for older cats to "teach" the younger cat their boundaries. And this teaching sometimes does include batting at the younger cat, or swiping at them, or actions that might seem sort of fight-y.
So how do you tell if that's what's happening or if the cats are actually truly disagreeing?" - Yes, cats do teach cats with batting, etc. I think K is being a normal resident cat and is just batting now to warn T not to try anything. Later on, we'll probably see K try to teach T some manners in play, interacting etc.

"Is it possible that K is being prevented from telling T to just leave her alone? For example, I'm fairly certain K likes us but she is still quite aloof and is really not physically affectionate, and not clingy or needy. So I don't know if she's ever going to fully relax or even eventually snuggle with T...I kind of doubt it... " - I don't think K is being prevented at all. This is about building trust. So the less negatives the more trust is built. Bit by bit. K likes you. She would not act the way she does or look in the pictures like she does if she didn't. Some cats are more affectionate and some less. Doesn't mean they don't love. Not being "clingy" or "needy" tells me she is actually feeling comfortable which is a positive and a testament to all you do for her. We'll find out how she will interact with T. All I ever care about is that each cat is happy. We can't force things. If the cats are healthy, happy and loving their home then it is a success.

"I know that it seems like all of my questions are trying to lead you to say, "just let them meet and work it out and it'll be fine" but I just want to clarify that's absolutely not what I'm looking for, I'm just curious about the things I'm asking about and not necessarily applying them to K and T's situation. And it is not currently in the plan to just throw them together, because then all of our work until now would be a waste!" - I actually didn't get that impression. IN fact, getting them to meet is the last thing we want now. We need to build more trust with them. Specifically K trusting T. So we need to continue making positive associations (feeding) at the gate and making positive encounters. And building their confidence via Play, Food, Height and Love (if safe). Everything you are experiencing is normal. I do a lot of cat intros and this is nothing out of the ordinary. It is typical.

Please don't overthink this or think about what may happen in the future. Just take it step by step, stay in real time, and build that trust and confidence via positive associations and positive encounters. VERY rarely do they not work out. If you have the knowledge (which you are gaining) and have the desire (which you have) I see no reason why we can intro these cats successfully. I have had cats literally try to kill each other. Blood all over etc. We intro'd them and if we can do that we can do your situation. On a 1-10 scale with 1 being easy intro and 10 being the most difficult everything I have read and seen of yours is about a 4. Slightly better than average. The fact K does look away and walk away is a positive sign. I am not at all worried. We just need to keep up those positive associations (feeding) and try to make every encounter as positive as possible and work on building the confidence (play with K as much as possible and feed after) and just be calm, confident and loving to K to help her feel at ease with T and when T is not around.

I guess I have been around cats for a long time and have worked with a lot of people that I have seen everything and just can sense when there are serious issues. Sometimes we just can see a cat and see the body language and what they are feeling. I don't see anything in K to worry me. Of course, maybe I am not getting the whole picture so keep up the videos but I get a sense that I am seeing what K is about. She does not seem like a cat that is going to be a problem. And T definitely does not.

Hang in there, we'll get you through this. I am honestly not at all worried. And I would tell you if I was.

 

[acari]

But the video of K lashing out, I couldn't really understand where K's aggression was coming from. Perhaps treats, perhaps paper, perhaps play, or she's just not ready yet, to fully accept T into her territory.
Maybe it is K's style of playing that is so intense, like you wrote previously, that she enjoys pouncing on everything she sees.

Us too, we don't know why she's doing it. And it's why it's so surprising when she does it if T is relaxing, stretched out, not even paying attention to K.
If I had to personify K when she is pawing...it seems her thought process is: "Who is that? It's T and I'm annoyed and grumpy just looking at her. I'm going to go over there right now and give her a scare. Great, now the humans are looking...I better leave. Now they're going to come over and tell me 'No' but I don't care. Why is T there again? I'm still annoyed and grumpy and I don't feel better."
Then, the questions would probably be: Why doesn't K like T existing? (Territorial? Solution: Site swapping, exposure)
What can we do to make K feel better? (Solution: Talking to her sometimes helps, but maybe just give more treats, as long as we are clear we are not rewarding her for pawing at T.)
Unless we somehow get more insight into what is triggering K into lashing out, I guess we just continue on with what we have been doing now.

Then you show a series of photos, where K is again so relaxed, that she happens to fall asleep while T is out roaming the downstairs...so now I'm thinking....well, K cannot be so fearful, agitated or upset,....if she only watches and falls asleep.

K is very lazy during the day and sleeps a lot more than T. This is actually a bit of a new development maybe within the past few weeks, because she has been sleeping almost the entire day, which she didn't do before.
It feels like it was more that she decided "I'd rather sleep than keep watch on T", instead of being so relaxed that she fell asleep (subtle difference). For example, I was giving out treats, but she also decided she'd rather sleep than wait for treats.
This wasn't the case in the evening, when she's more active, alert, and hungry - she stayed near the gate for the most part.

Often times, people don't really exhaust all the avenues available, such as first doing cat behaviour-modification, the vet route of medications, then perhaps asking a vet about a cat behaviourist. There are so many things to try before any thoughts of wanting to give their cats away.) Also, there is nothing wrong with a cat who cannot get along with other cats, living in a room of their own.

That's true, I didn't remember the vet and behaviorist options, so those would be "additional levels". Thank you for reminding me!
To be absolutely clear, we also have no plans of giving up either of the cats. Based on other things I've seen and read their interactions are rather on the mild side, and they're not actually fighting or screaming just at the scent of each other - I'm just having trouble because they seem to be "stuck" at the current stage. And I just wanted to know what might happen/be prepared if they stay "stuck" for possibly months more, and if T starts acting up or getting hard to handle because of it.
Regarding "nothing wrong with a cat living in a room of their own" - I agree, except that I expect a lot of people don't have the room or resources to deal with that sort of situation long-term, especially if the cat to be sequestered away actually wants to be roaming free.

The reason I am asking about this, is just to compare, how K acts with her food bowl, around T, and within viewing sight....as opposed to how she reacts to her treats. It's just a small experiment.

Okay! We'll give it a try tonight and I'll let you know what happens.

We're just trying to make the interactions, less of a 'hurtful' fight, and more of a 'playful' fight.

I can't tell if K is trying to hurt T when she is pawing but it's not quite down at the "playful" level either, I think.
I also can't tell if K doesn't put her claws out because of the chicken wire or if it's because she doesn't want to actually scratch T.

To me it looks like K actually wants to engage T with her, ...it's just that K still needs to learn to 'soften her reactions', and not be so 'forceful', or frightening to T.

Maybe T's non-aggressive reactions will also help "teach" K to be less forceful? T has never made sounds or actions in retaliation, she just stays quiet and backs away or waits for K to leave.
There was one time when T put her paws up on the gate looking to interact with K, but K pawed at her, and T hasn't done that again since. (She's put her paws up on the gate plenty, just not when K is around.)

You've mentioned that K is not overly affectionate...but would she allow you to place a 'cat harness' on her.

I feel like it could go either way, especially depending on her mood, but also depending on the harness type. If she did allow it, I would put money on her not allowing it again after a few times, unless she happens to like it for some reason.
I haven't mentioned it before but I suspect that K has some form of mild feline hyperesthesia syndrome. The skin on her back twitches on its own occasionally and she ignores it unless it continues, then she might suddenly turn around and start cleaning there for a few licks. And her paws twitch seemingly out of her control if you touch her face in certain spots, and she'll lick her paws when that happens as well. T doesn't have reactions like this at all.
Anyway, I feel like a harness would probably be uncomfortable for K due to this, but of course it's all just speculation.
Why do you ask? Is this in possible preparation in the future for when they do meet without the gate, so that we can stop her from hurting T? Or just to better understand her personality?

C calicosrspecial Just wanted to thank you for your last post, I read it in full but don't think I need to respond to anything specific. Thank you very much for your feedback, reassurance, and for providing a "scale" of cat intro difficulty, I had wanted to ask this previously so you read my mind!

 

[calicosrspecial]

"If I had to personify K when she is pawing...it seems her thought process is: "Who is that? It's T and I'm annoyed and grumpy just looking at her. I'm going to go over there right now and give her a scare. Great, now the humans are looking...I better leave. Now they're going to come over and tell me 'No' but I don't care. Why is T there again? I'm still annoyed and grumpy and I don't feel better."
Then, the questions would probably be: Why doesn't K like T existing? (Territorial? Solution: Site swapping, exposure)
What can we do to make K feel better? (Solution: Talking to her sometimes helps, but maybe just give more treats, as long as we are clear we are not rewarding her for pawing at T.) Unless we somehow get more insight into what is triggering K into lashing out, I guess we just continue on with what we have been doing now. "- I think it is as simple as this. K is thinking "Who is this "threat" in "MY TERRITORY" and are they going to hurt me? Take my food away? Take my water away? Take my litter box away? Force me into a small area where I can't even move? My life is going to be worse!". So that is why we do what we do. To make a positive association with food. To have no threat to their physical being. To not take territory away. To make everything as good as before.

"Lashing out" would be much worse than this in my opinion. K is pawing. All cats will paw. It is what else that do that tells us how serious it is.

"K is very lazy during the day and sleeps a lot more than T. This is actually a bit of a new development maybe within the past few weeks, because she has been sleeping almost the entire day, which she didn't do before." - This is a good sign that she is feeling more comfortable and doesn't need to monitor T as much. We want the cat to be like "yeah, I know that cat, that cat doesn't bother me".

"I'm just having trouble because they seem to be "stuck" at the current stage. And I just wanted to know what might happen/be prepared if they stay "stuck" for possibly months more, and if T starts acting up or getting hard to handle because of it." - Even if you are "stuck" which I don't think you are that would be good as it is not escalating and the more times they are together with nothing serious happening the more trust will be built. I don't get a sense T is going to act up. T seems like a great cat as does K. T is the reason why things will be fine.

"I can't tell if K is trying to hurt T when she is pawing but it's not quite down at the "playful" level either" - It is not playful but it is not "I want to kill you'. It looks defensive to me to tell T "not to try anything" to keep T is her place. Which is normal.

"Maybe T's non-aggressive reactions will also help "teach" K to be less forceful?" - It will show K that T doesn't mean harm. Because of how T seems to be that is one reason why I am so confident they will get intro'd successfully.

You are welcome. Things are going to be fine. K just needs to trust T and get that positive association. K had a good history in the shelter) with the other cats) and T looks like a diplomat which is going to be very helpful.

Please don't overthink this. Just stay calm and confident around them (as cats take on our emotions and we can help de-escalate things with our emotions) and keep making positive associations (feeding at the gate starting a little way away and moving closer each few days). You are already having success with the treats. Keep trying to make every encounter at the gate as positive as possible and try to get K to look away from T (every time you do it is a success as NO CAT would take their eyes of a potential threat). The pawing is really not an issue. It is normal. Of course, we want to distract if possible to avoid it. But it sure doesn't seem to be worrying T too much which is great. But we want to get K to feel like she doesn't need to do that.

 

[acari]

So that is why we do what we do. To make a positive association with food. To have no threat to their physical being. To not take territory away. To make everything as good as before.

Well, in the end, when introducing a new cat to a resident cat, aren't we "taking" the resident cat's territory away? We're working towards sharing it but if the new cat sticks around then the space really will never again only belong to the resident cat.
Is that why site and scent swapping is important? So the more T is running around in K's space, the more the space also smells like T, but if it's still primarily K's territory then it gives K time to get used to T (surrounded by her scent)?
K seems to get agitated whenever she sees T though, and doesn't seem to care much about the scent side of things.

K is pawing. All cats will paw.

It looks defensive to me to tell T "not to try anything" to keep T is her place. Which is normal.

Keep trying to make every encounter at the gate as positive as possible and try to get K to look away from T (every time you do it is a success as NO CAT would take their eyes of a potential threat). The pawing is really not an issue. It is normal.

When you (and cat nap ) say that "pawing is normal" do you mean in this stage of introductions? Or do you mean that it's something that all cats do even after they've successfully been introduced to each other?

We are continuing to try to distract K whenever T is near. T is very cautious with K, probably because she doesn't want to be pawed at. Whenever the pawing happens now it's because we weren't watching K like a hawk and T suddenly decided to come closer, or we were sitting just out of arm's reach of the treats/not fast enough with the distracting.
This happened today while T was out in the living room, I didn't expect T to come over while I was trying to play with K with a wand toy, and I didn't have the treats near me. I think T came over too fast, and K was already on edge due to the playing, and although I tried waving the toy in her face she opted to ignore that and paw at T instead.

But, a bit before that, I captured these following moments:

K turkeying, T interested, but she decides to walk away - at this distance T is generally safe from pawing


K turkeying, watching T play in the hall


(This one is longer)
T peers around the corner, sees K, and is interested
She slowly and cautiously makes her way over without staring the whole time
K turkeys behind the rice bag
T actually comes all the way up to the other side of the bag, and I think they look at each other for a few seconds (not sure if K had line of sight)
T decides to quit while she's ahead and scampers away
After this happened we were excited that it was a huge positive, but then a bit later the pawing happened as described above. Do you think negative actions "cancel" out positive ones? Or is it still good that this happened? Is there anything else you, the experts, can glean from this clip?

 

[acari]

Sorry, I forgot to mention. Anytime I provide GIFs instead of a video with sound it's because there are no sounds coming from either of them, and GIFs are easier to deal with.

 

[cat nap]

(This one is longer)
T peers around the corner, sees K, and is interested
She slowly and cautiously makes her way over without staring the whole time
K turkeys behind the rice bag
T actually comes all the way up to the other side of the bag, and I think they look at each other for a few seconds (not sure if K had line of sight)
T decides to quit while she's ahead and scampers away
After this happened we were excited that it was a huge positive, but then a bit later the pawing happened as described above. Do you think negative actions "cancel" out positive ones? Or is it still good that this happened? Is there anything else you, the experts, can glean from this clip?

Wow. I have to comment on this last GIF, first.
It is awesome. Just amazing.
It's the beginning of cat play.

Not sure how you both managed to do this,....this fast....since I was betting that this was going to happen within 2 weeks, but it already happened today. (glad I don't actually bet using money....or I'd be broke.)

It's just such a good feeling, to see T initiating play, not being too fearful, and K just crouching there, ears attentive and listening, and not looking upset. At one point K looks away, so that must be good.

T also 'deciding to quit while she's ahead and scampers away'....is also a good move. Smart cat.

I don't think that the negative actions, of pawing, can 'cancel' out this positive encounter.
I think that I'm the only one that thought the pawing was 'lashing', and worrisome,....but if C calicosrspecial doesn't see the pawing as 'lashing-out', and that it's 'totally normal in intros',... then I'd go by that interpretation, of the previous actions at the gate.

When you (and cat nap ) say that "pawing is normal" do you mean in this stage of introductions? Or do you mean that it's something that all cats do even after they've successfully been introduced to each other?

Actually, I don't remember saying that I thought "pawing is normal"....unless it's like the game of 'pawing with pattycakes' type of motions.
Again, for me, the pawing seemed a bit too intense....in that video at the bottom of the stairs.

I'd like to see the pawing reduced in intensity, coming from K, and then I'd be comfortable with the next steps.
But yeah, cats do play using their paws, all the time, in swipes, swats, bats, hits.
You just don't want them to inflict pain, onto each other.

If K allows you, then you could try to give her claws a trim, just on the tips.
You mentioned that she may not even be extending her claws, when she paws the gate, but really, it is hard to tell.

If I had to personify K when she is pawing...it seems her thought process is: "Who is that? It's T and I'm annoyed and grumpy just looking at her. I'm going to go over there right now and give her a scare. Great, now the humans are looking...I better leave. Now they're going to come over and tell me 'No' but I don't care. Why is T there again? I'm still annoyed and grumpy and I don't feel better."
Then, the questions would probably be: Why doesn't K like T existing? (Territorial? Solution: Site swapping, exposure)
What can we do to make K feel better? (Solution: Talking to her sometimes helps, but maybe just give more treats, as long as we are clear we are not rewarding her for pawing at T.)
Unless we somehow get more insight into what is triggering K into lashing out, I guess we just continue on with what we have been doing now.

This above inner monologue that you described K as thinking, ....had me in stitches.
I was laughing so much, that my female cat, laying near me on the sofa, probably thought her human is very odd to be staring at a laptop, and bursting out laughing. I think my cats know when I'm on the Cat Site, but I'm not too sure if they always approve.

Goodness, thank you for that laugh, today. I can so hear K thinking this....multiple times, in the day.
(I have to step out, now, but will try to answer those other questions, when I'm back.)

Oh, and if you notice in that 2nd GIF, K is really following that wand toy, ...more so, than she does T.
So maybe playing with K with that wand toy, will also reduce her reactions, to make her 'feel better', and not have to be 'grumpy or annoyed'. Though, I can probably hear another total internal thought process from K, as to why she does not feel up to playing with that particular toy, ....in that particular moment. She 'doesn't care what her humans say'....and 'why do her humans watch her so much'....lol.