Cat intros at a standstill

[acari]

The 'extending the gate time' sounds really good.

Yes, and I'm happy to report that T is crying less as a result, because even if we're not on her side of the gate she can usually see us and she's content (for now) to just watch what's happening in the living room. K is usually also in line of sight.

I had just wondered if T ....had actually known that K was upstairs, at this point in time.

I think she did know, but I'm not sure she understood or remembered. I feel like T forgets things as soon as they happen, or she gets distracted. I'm chalking it up to kitten-brain?

Just take it a bit slow on visual interactions and try to make them as positive as possible and distract (play, food, treats) in order to get them to break any focus or negativity.

Thank you C calicosrspecial for your advice! We are now proactively interrupting or distracting (as best we can) if K starts to make any sort of negative-seeming noise or motion and I think it's helping, though of course it has only been a day or two. Previously we were waiting to see what happened when they were near each other. We just don't want to hover too intensely!
Oh, and we are rewarding K for going near the gate even if T isn't right there, and I think she's starting to go to the gate more often as a result (though she is really focused on the treats and studiously ignoring T).

I wanted to give an update: we let T explore part of K's territory (downstairs) while we fenced in K in the kitchen. We combined it with mealtime so that we could more easily lure T back up to her room with food if needed.
It ended up being only for ten minutes because I got worried K was getting too agitated...
K hunkered down in front of the gate to watch T, my partner reported that she looked anxious (I couldn't see her face, I was behind her). I distracted her with many treats and she seemed alright, maybe a little confused/uncertain.
T sniffed around a bunch and was probably overwhelmed with the new area to explore - she didn't touch her dry food at first but in the last few minutes she started to eat it slowly (again, she usually eats at light speed, so she must have been nervous).
Because K started huffing a bit, even with treats, we brought T back upstairs and let K back out. K immediately did a round of checking on things and sniffing, but then settled back into her heated box (where she normally goes after a meal these days).

I guess I would consider that successful since nothing overtly negative happened between them? We'll keep doing this as time allows, set-up is a bit difficult.

 

[cat nap]

I think she did know, but I'm not sure she understood or remembered. I feel like T forgets things as soon as they happen, or she gets distracted. I'm chalking it up to kitten-brain?

'kitten-brain'....that is adorable. (I wish us humans can use this excuse when walking from room to room and forgetting things, or getting distracted, too.)

It's so adorable, when you actually watch kittens getting distracted by things.
Or just how they run around and learn things.
I guess because they 'notice' so many things, that they learn quicker.

I wanted to give an update: we let T explore part of K's territory (downstairs) while we fenced in K in the kitchen. We combined it with mealtime so that we could more easily lure T back up to her room with food if needed.
It ended up being only for ten minutes because I got worried K was getting too agitated...
K hunkered down in front of the gate to watch T, my partner reported that she looked anxious (I couldn't see her face, I was behind her). I distracted her with many treats and she seemed alright, maybe a little confused/uncertain.
T sniffed around a bunch and was probably overwhelmed with the new area to explore - she didn't touch her dry food at first but in the last few minutes she started to eat it slowly (again, she usually eats at light speed, so she must have been nervous).
Because K started huffing a bit, even with treats, we brought T back upstairs and let K back out. K immediately did a round of checking on things and sniffing, but then settled back into her heated box (where she normally goes after a meal these days).

Did K act extremely different while she was in the kitchen, behind the gate?...as opposed to being beside the gate, while the gate is on the stairs? Meaning, her vocals, posture, ears, sitting, walking, etc.

I guess I would consider that successful since nothing overtly negative happened between them? We'll keep doing this as time allows, set-up is a bit difficult.

Are you still planing to 'close off the hallway'...by using some sort of screen.
If the wire-shelving one, using zip ties like an accordion, is not useful, then maybe getting a roll of pet-resistant window screening would be okay. Though, I am not quite sure how you'd attach it, to any hallway walls.
Saint-Gobain ADFORS 36 in. x 84 in. Charcoal Pet Resistant Window Screen-FCS8988-M - The Home Depot
Phifer 48 in. x 84 in. Black Pet Screen-3004153 - The Home Depot

 

[acari]

Did K act extremely different while she was in the kitchen, behind the gate?...as opposed to being beside the gate, while the gate is on the stairs? Meaning, her vocals, posture, ears, sitting, walking, etc.

Are you still planing to 'close off the hallway'...by using some sort of screen.
If the wire-shelving one, using zip ties like an accordion, is not useful, then maybe getting a roll of pet-resistant window screening would be okay. Though, I am not quite sure how you'd attach it, to any hallway walls.

At first she was nervous, my partner said she looked a bit shaky. She trembles when she's especially worried, like when she's in a car, but the reaction wasn't as strong as that. She's never been blocked off from accessing the living room like this, she's always had free reign over the downstairs area, so I think her reaction made sense.
When she hunkers down, she looks like a little turkey, so I call that "turkey-ing". She "turkey-ed" right up at the gate, confused and worried, looking out at T (who was tentatively coming down the stairs at the time, peeking out at K).
I decided to distract her with treats, she accepted that easily and didn't seem as nervous after that. She paced a little bit around me, walking normally, and asked for more treats. If I waited a bit before giving a treat, she would go back to the gate and either sit or turkey to watch T.

Almost always, her ears are pointed forwards or angled towards sounds, I don't think I've ever seen them fully flattened back. Sometimes they are flatter pointed out to the sides (airplane ears).

Yes, "closing off the hallway" is what we did yesterday in order to allow T to explore, and keep K in the kitchen. Our main gate is made of wood and chicken wire, and to block off the stairs we stand it up vertically. To close off the hallway, we took that gate and put it down horizontally - it's wide enough to block it off. But it's not very tall then, so we also stacked a cardboard barrier on top. It looks like chaos but it works...

I have another update + questions that I'm going to post in a separate comment soon. I also have a short video clip from just under a week ago that is a mild example of how K swipes at T (it's very hard to get video since we're usually occupied with distracting them), I'll see if I can upload that somehow.

 

[acari]

My update is about a "new" reaction from K. It's not the first time it's happened but it wasn't as blatant, so I had wanted to wait to see if it became a habit or pattern.
Maybe once a night during gate time (not every time she goes to the gate or walks by it), K will run up to the gate (charging?) to paw at T, who is usually lying down and seemingly isn't doing anything to aggravate K.

Yesterday night, I was playing with K in the middle of the living room, which is a bit away from the gate - K usually naps or sleeps somewhere around this area even if T is watching her from the base of the steps, so I consider it a "safe zone" for K.
T was lying down watching us play.
K suddenly, without any warning, turned around and ran up to the gate to paw at T - by the time she got there I was already saying "HEY" repeatedly. T had dashed halfway back up the stairs to get out of possible reach, and as I was getting up K had already slunk away a few steps (not very far from the gate, she didn't outright run away).
I can't say I know what she's thinking or feeling but judging from her face and posture she knew she wasn't supposed to be doing that, she looked quite guilty.
I was standing in front of the gate at this time between her and T, and it seemed like she either wanted to go back to the gate or come toward me to brush up against my legs, but I moved to block her in case it was the former (didn't want her to continue negative actions towards T), and she left to go back to the playing area. She laid down on her side and blinked a few times. They weren't slow blinks (too fast for that) but not normal blinks either, I think she does that when she feels bad and wants us to forgive her?
During this, T had come back down the stairs to see what was happening, she never stays away or scared of K for very long.

I ignored K for a short while after this but then went to talk to her (she didn't want to be pet), of course she ignored me for the most part in return.

I really don't want this to become a habit for K but I'm not sure how to prevent it from happening, especially as there usually is no warning if she decides to run at the gate. But it isn't happening with every interaction at the gate, most of the time it's not like this.
It really seems like the visual of T is what sets her off, because scent doesn't seem to trigger anything as far as we can tell. And T isn't being aggressive at all, in fact she trills/chirps in a friendly manner every time K walks by even if K is ignoring her.
Maybe she's not being friendly, though I seriously doubt it. Maybe she's sending out ultrasonic fight signals, I don't know...

I totally understand that there must be something that is making K uncomfortable even if it doesn't make sense to my human logic, I just want to help her!

Does anyone think it might be helpful if we blocked off visual access for some of gate time? Maybe it would make K feel better if she couldn't see T?
It would be a bit cruel to limit T's space at this point so we don't want to have to go "backwards" for that. I imagine that T likes to be able to see what's happening, if we blocked it off it would only be for K's benefit.

 

[cat nap]

I have another update + questions that I'm going to post in a separate comment soon. I also have a short video clip from just under a week ago that is a mild example of how K swipes at T (it's very hard to get video since we're usually occupied with distracting them), I'll see if I can upload that somehow.

Videos will really help to see what is going on.
Here's a post that might help with some info on embedding a video.
Embed videos

(The Articles area of the Site is getting revamped...so for some strange reason the original 'site help' video area is not redirecting.
We were told to notify the Site, in case some re-directs don't work...but I wasn't sure if this was only for Article re-directs or not. )

 

[cat nap]

Does anyone think it might be helpful if we blocked off visual access for some of gate time? Maybe it would make K feel better if she couldn't see T?
It would be a bit cruel to limit T's space at this point so we don't want to have to go "backwards" for that. I imagine that T likes to be able to see what's happening, if we blocked it off it would only be for K's benefit.

I was thinking this exact same thing last night.

The other two members had mentioned it, in their posts, and it totally makes sense to block the visual access if K is getting too anxious, nervous, or riled up.
Someone mentioned that you block off visual access in stages....using a blanket or sheet, and slowly lifting it a little, when both cats are calm, and curious.

 

[cat nap]

Maybe once a night during gate time (not every time she goes to the gate or walks by it), K will run up to the gate (charging?) to paw at T, who is usually lying down and seemingly isn't doing anything to aggravate K.

Are you sure this is not cat play...as opposed to wanting to fight?
Is it the way K runs at the gate that looks worrying?
Or does she run up, hiss, spit, paw, yowl, fur standing up....and scare T away?

 

[acari]

Okay so I didn't figure out a video but I uploaded a GIF here of the interaction I mentioned:
This is about a week ago and is a more mild example of the type of pawing K does at T at the gate. We kind of caused this to happen by purposefully putting T's treat close to the gate so we could get a video (obviously we don't want to do this more than once). I realized midway through that I shouldn't have recorded in portrait mode because we can't see K's tail, but alas.

I didn't get the very beginning - K has already eaten a treat, we put treats down for both of them at the same time but T hesitated to eat hers, which is why it looks like K doesn't have one but T does.

At the very end you can see T running away when K looks up at her.

If anyone has any comments or insight, that would be awesome!

 

[acari]

The other two members had mentioned it, in their posts, and it totally makes sense to block the visual access if K is getting too anxious, nervous, or riled up.
Someone mentioned that you block off visual access in stages....using a blanket or sheet, and slowly lifting it a little, when both cats are calm, and curious.

Okay, we'll give that a try then, blocking visual access if K is paying more attention to T (for example I assume it'll be okay to not block if K is napping) unless K is being calm and/or curious. Then maybe we can lift just a bit and give treats.

Are you sure this is not cat play...as opposed to wanting to fight?
Is it the way K runs at the gate that looks worrying?
Or does she run up, hiss, spit, paw, yowl, fur standing up....and scare T away?

I actually don't know. Do cats randomly run at each other without warning in play? K never runs at us like that.
K doesn't hiss when she does this, occasionally she will make a sound to accompany the pawing but I wouldn't call it yowling. I've never seen her fur standing up whether T is involved or not.
T gets "scared" just because K is suddenly there doing stuff, usually pawing the wire at the gate or trying to paw at her (T). But she doesn't run away completely, she backs up a few steps knowing that K can't reach her, and usually when K leaves T will come back down.

 

[cat nap]

That totally looks normal to me.
That both K and T can be that close to each other is very good.
And the way that K looks up after the treat session, looks more curious than upset.

There is no sound on Gifs....but I'd say that you are doing well. Actually excellent.

Hopefully, blumarine916 or C calicosrspecial will be by later, to comment on the Gif, too.

Wow....does K ever like her treats.

 

[cat nap]

I actually don't know. Do cats randomly run at each other without warning in play? K never runs at us like that.
K doesn't hiss when she does this, occasionally she will make a sound to accompany the pawing but I wouldn't call it yowling. I've never seen her fur standing up whether T is involved or not.
T gets "scared" just because K is suddenly there doing stuff, usually pawing the wire at the gate or trying to paw at her (T). But she doesn't run away completely, she backs up a few steps knowing that K can't reach her, and usually when K leaves T will come back down.

Yes, randomly running at each other in play, is entirely normal, and to be expected.
(Well, it is kind of good that our cats don't actually run at us humans like that. That would make my heart jump.)

It honestly looks okay to me.

I wouldn't block off visuals....at this point....if this is the only thing you are seeing.

 

[cat nap]

Maybe this thread will help, although the kittens are much younger.

See Post #1....if video is still up, and Post #35.
Is this kitten play too rough/aggressive?

Is this kitten play too rough/aggressive?

Thanks for your help! I was so stressed a few days ago and now look at this!!!!!

thecatsite.com

 

[calicosrspecial]

"We are now proactively interrupting or distracting (as best we can) if K starts to make any sort of negative-seeming noise or motion and I think it's helping, though of course it has only been a day or two." Great. Exactly the right thing to do.

"we are rewarding K for going near the gate even if T isn't right there, and I think she's starting to go to the gate more often as a result (though she is really focused on the treats and studiously ignoring T)." Again, great, exactly what we want to do. Positive association. I LOVE she is ignoring T!!! What we want to see.

"we let T explore part of K's territory (downstairs) while we fenced in K in the kitchen. We combined it with mealtime so that we could more easily lure T back up to her room with food if needed.
It ended up being only for ten minutes because I got worried K was getting too agitated...
K hunkered down in front of the gate to watch T, my partner reported that she looked anxious (I couldn't see her face, I was behind her). I distracted her with many treats and she seemed alright, maybe a little confused/uncertain.
T sniffed around a bunch and was probably overwhelmed with the new area to explore - she didn't touch her dry food at first but in the last few minutes she started to eat it slowly (again, she usually eats at light speed, so she must have been nervous).
Because K started huffing a bit, even with treats, we brought T back upstairs and let K back out. K immediately did a round of checking on things and sniffing, but then settled back into her heated box (where she normally goes after a meal these days)." - Yes, I would say positive. 10 minutes is fine. We want to keep it as positive as possible for whatever amount of time. I like that T did eat and that K eventually was ok with everything and went into her heated box. So no negativity is a positive.

Just take it slow and go at K's pace. K has the most difficult transition so K has to be most comfortable and most secure and confident. We want K not to be as worried and huffing as much in the future. Of course, this should help reinforce that everything is fine after T was around which builds that trust.

"I decided to distract her with treats, she accepted that easily and didn't seem as nervous after that. She paced a little bit around me, walking normally, and asked for more treats." - Great positive association, positive encounter.

"her ears are pointed forwards or angled towards sounds, I don't think I've ever seen them fully flattened back " - Very good

"K will run up to the gate (charging?) to paw at T, who is usually lying down and seemingly isn't doing anything to aggravate K.
K suddenly, without any warning, turned around and ran up to the gate to paw at T - by the time she got there I was already saying "HEY" repeatedly. T had dashed halfway back up the stairs to get out of possible reach, and as I was getting up K had already slunk away a few steps (not very far from the gate, she didn't outright run away).
I can't say I know what she's thinking or feeling but judging from her face and posture she knew she wasn't supposed to be doing that, she looked quite guilty. I was standing in front of the gate at this time between her and T, and it seemed like she either wanted to go back to the gate or come toward me to brush up against my legs, but I moved to block her in case it was the former (didn't want her to continue negative actions towards T), and she left to go back to the playing area. She laid down on her side and blinked a few times. They weren't slow blinks (too fast for that) but not normal blinks either, I think she does that when she feels bad and wants us to forgive her?" - Cats do this. K is still not trusting and is telling T not to mess around with her. This jsut tells us we have to build that trust and confidence. Reinforcing positive associations and positive encounters.

"During this, T had come back down the stairs to see what was happening, she never stays away or scared of K for very long." - This is a very good sign that K isn't viewed as a serious threat.

"I ignored K for a short while after this but then went to talk to her (she didn't want to be pet), of course she ignored me for the most part in return." - Just act normal after something like that. Do something positive. It isn't like a dog where it is rewarding "bad" behavior. It is all about acting like there is not threat and all is fine. Just keep making positive associations and building confidence. Cats take on our emotions so stay calm, confident and loving around her.

"It really seems like the visual of T is what sets her off" - It is a process and great that scent doesn't bother K. The next thing is visual which you are getting success. We just need to keep expanding the positives in the visual contact (use distraction). It is normal for the resident (existing) cat to have the more difficult transition as it is their territory being "invaded:". They don;t know it it is an existential threat or not but they view it as existential until proved otherwise. That is why we do the intro process, to build that trust that the other cat doesn't mean harm. It is very good it doesn't happen all the time, it tells me you are making progress.

You could block visual if you think it will help make more encounters positive. It is not a big step backwards. It is a normal part of the process to go back a bit when needed.

The video is normal and part of the process. the important part and GREAT part is that K was able to eat with t right there and then T ate. The fact you could distract K tells me all will be fine. The pawing was normal, not an issue. Of course we don;t want it but it will be solved with distraction, positive associations etc.

Do cats randomly run at each other without warning in play? - Yes. Not an issue.

Don't worry, everything you are experiencing is normal and part of the process. You are making progress. Just keep up wit the plan to make their encounters as positive as possible and keep building confidence. K will eventually realize that T is not a threat and will accept.

 

[acari]

And the way that K looks up after the treat session, looks more curious than upset.

There is no sound on Gifs....but I'd say that you are doing well. Actually excellent.

I feel like sometimes K is looking at T in a threatening manner but maybe I'm misinterpreting her curiosity.
Regarding sound in the original video, K made the tiniest little sound when she first pawed at the gate, but you can barely hear it. Otherwise, no sounds from either of them other than treat crunching.

Wow....does K ever like her treats.

Yeah...she's gotten lazier since we first adopted her so she's gaining weight what with all the positive reward treats we're giving her in this intro process! But we can work on her weight after she and T are friends.

I wouldn't block off visuals....at this point....if this is the only thing you are seeing.

Well, this is the most mild version of the pawing, occasionally she will be more forceful, or use both paws, or paw for a few seconds longer, before walking away. We can block off visuals for part of the evening, when both of them are more active, and see if it helps K at all - otherwise I guess we don't have to do it.

Maybe this thread will help, although the kittens are much younger.

See Post #1....if video is still up, and Post #35.

Thank you cat nap ! It's hard to tell with K because the gate is in the way but a bit of the first video (the "rougher" play) is similar to what she does, though she seems more agitated than the kittens. But I'm thinking about it and K kind of acts more agitated when she's playing with us, too, so maybe that's just how she is?

Cats do this. K is still not trusting and is telling T not to mess around with her.

Just act normal after something like that. Do something positive. It isn't like a dog where it is rewarding "bad" behavior. It is all about acting like there is not threat and all is fine.

Oh, I see. C calicosrspecial I did think exactly that - didn't want to reward her for negative behavior. I thought I read something about how that's a possibility though? Does it not apply in this particular situation because it's an introductory thing/social behavior?
For example, you're not supposed to give treats if they've jumped on the counter and you're trying to get them off, because they might associate jumping on the counter = treats?

The pawing was normal, not an issue. Of course we don;t want it but it will be solved with distraction, positive associations etc.

K will eventually realize that T is not a threat and will accept.

I am really glad that you guys think that the pawing is not an issue, thanks for your feedback!

I will keep an eye on K's body language if/when she runs at the gate to see if it's fighting or playing.

Sorry for all the questions, but I wanted to ask: if she is trying to play, that doesn't mean she's chummy with T, right? We should still wait for them to touch noses and be close without pawing/hissing - would those be signs they are friendly? Or what am I looking for?

 

[cat nap]

I feel like sometimes K is looking at T in a threatening manner but maybe I'm misinterpreting her curiosity.
Regarding sound in the original video, K made the tiniest little sound when she first pawed at the gate, but you can barely hear it. Otherwise, no sounds from either of them other than treat crunching.

Yeah...she's gotten lazier since we first adopted her so she's gaining weight what with all the positive reward treats we're giving her in this intro process! But we can work on her weight after she and T are friends.

Not sure about how threatening K is looking at T, since I am seeing her from the back, but if you notice in the Gif...at about
.04 sec in....when you or your partner place the treat on T's side, K is super-focused on that treat.

At .69 sec in....K raises her left paw...(you can actually see her shadow)...and strikes...lightning quick at the wire fence.
T moves back and settles down, but at the same time....looks to be wondering how she can possibly get at her treat.
"I mean, what kind of surprise 'trap-treat' is this". "There must be something I can use to distract K, so that I, "T"...can get my treat." )

Then at about 4.2 seconds or sooner, we see another hand come in, and place another treat down for K.
At this point, all is well, and both cats eat their treats.
K looks up, and wonders..."hey, come back, our humans will give us more treats, as long as you, and I, are at this gate."

I love watching this.
And both cats are beautiful, but no worries on weight for K, she has 'winter fur'.

What type of cat is K? Is she a snowshow? I'm not good for remembering what each breed is.
In her first photo, K seemed to have very long ears, and kind of looked exotic, but not sure.
T has those beautiful white whiskers, and dazzling white socks/paws.

Well, this is the most mild version of the pawing, occasionally she will be more forceful, or use both paws, or paw for a few seconds longer, before walking away. We can block off visuals for part of the evening, when both of them are more active, and see if it helps K at all - otherwise I guess we don't have to do it.

Sure, you can block off...and experiment, if you like.
(try it both ways, and see how it goes.)
If you do block off, then watch K's expressions, and see if she gets annoyed or aggravated by T, on the other side.

If K is only getting upset that T is getting a treat, then try using a toy,...and play right up to the gate...when the gate is not blocked off.

Thank you cat nap cat nap ! It's hard to tell with K because the gate is in the way but a bit of the first video (the "rougher" play) is similar to what she does, though she seems more agitated than the kittens. But I'm thinking about it and K kind of acts more agitated when she's playing with us, too, so maybe that's just how she is?

Cats do have differences in play styles. Some like to run, while others like to wrestle, or both.
Looking for those subtle changes in our cats, will help you to see how yours' respond.

I am really glad that you guys think that the pawing is not an issue, thanks for your feedback!

I will keep an eye on K's body language if/when she runs at the gate to see if it's fighting or playing.

Sorry for all the questions, but I wanted to ask: if she is trying to play, that doesn't mean she's chummy with T, right? We should still wait for them to touch noses and be close without pawing/hissing - would those be signs they are friendly? Or what am I looking for?

I love all your questions. (I ask you just as many, and you don't seem to mind. )

...if she is trying to play, that doesn't mean she's chummy with T, right?

She is not yet there.
But it's very good progress.

We should still wait for them to touch noses and be close without pawing/hissing - would those be signs they are friendly?

Not necessarily 'waiting for them to touch noses... and be close without pawing or hissing'.

Or what am I looking for?

You're looking for a more calmer reaction from K.
Less of the 'shoot out the paw' like lightning, reaction.

You're also still working on the 'site swapping' and 'scent swapping'....so that both K and T are comfortable and that both their scents are all over the place.
(like calicosrspecial mentioned....build your cats' confidence through Play, Food, Height, and Love)

Make sure, to always have 'escape routes' for T, so that if she does have to run, from K.,...when they eventually meet, then she can do it safely.
I'd also get K placed into T's room, and see how she acts.
T still needs to feel good about the whole house, too.

 

[acari]

at about
.04 sec in....when you or your partner place the treat on T's side, K is super-focused on that treat.

At .69 sec in....K raises her left paw...(you can actually see her shadow)...and strikes...lightning quick at the wire fence.

Wow, you have this down to the millisecond. Is K's reaction for treats not the normal reaction? I thought all cats would be like that unless they weren't food motivated at all. I'm not sure what I would do if she didn't love treats this much!

I love watching this.
And both cats are beautiful, but no worries on weight for K, she has 'winter fur'.

What type of cat is K? Is she a snowshow? I'm not good for remembering what each breed is.
In her first photo, K seemed to have very long ears, and kind of looked exotic, but not sure.
T has those beautiful white whiskers, and dazzling white socks/paws.

Yes...we'll call it winter fur...haha!
The close-up photo of K I think made her look like an alien just from the camera angle. She's a Siamese mix of some sort, the shelter said Lynx point but her tabby markings aren't very prominent on her face and body, so I'm not sure if that's correct. If you look up Lynx point Siamese the pictures don't really look like her!
Her coat is reminiscent of a snowshoe but she's missing the darker face "mask".
T's whiskers are so charming and she has a long floofy grey tail - we weren't choosing based on looks or anything but we're happy that they look so different from each other.

If K is only getting upset that T is getting a treat, then try using a toy,...and play right up to the gate...when the gate is not blocked off.

She gets upset if T is too close even if T doesn't have a treat.
But just now I tried playing with K near the gate and she obliged, with T watching. And when K needed a quick breather I brought the toy over to T's side and played with her, with K watching. I think it went well! Thanks for the suggestion!!
(However I feel like this is largely dependent on K's mood, she happened to feel like running around today.)

(I ask you just as many, and you don't seem to mind. )

I love answering about them and it's the least I can do since you're being so, so kind and helpful! I just can't thank you enough.

You're looking for a more calmer reaction from K.
Less of the 'shoot out the paw' like lightning, reaction.

I see, that's really good to know. Now that we're trying a few different/extra things, I'm hopeful K will calm down with time.

Play, Food, Height, and Love

I meant to mention this before but K actually doesn't like heights that much! Is she a weird cat? She likes being low to the ground and exploring/hiding under things. We set up a few different high places for her and she generally ignored them all...we bought her this nice cat tree but she never used it. T loves it and sleeps in it though so it wasn't a waste.

I'd also get K placed into T's room, and see how she acts.

You're right, I'll try to figure this out soon. I think it would make the most sense to get T more comfortable with the living room, so that if something scares her she won't need to run back to her room (because then K would be in there).

!!! Update as I finished writing! Sorry for the grainy photo but my partner took it and had to zoom in so we didn't disturb them. I'm sitting around the corner from K typing this, I actually can't see them.

They are both lying down and being quiet and chill! Without me or my partner around! This has to be good, right?

P.S. You can also see little scraps of paper everywhere on the floor. K has taken to shredding the craft paper we leave around for her to play in and I honestly think the scraps are multiplying by themselves when I'm not looking

 

[calicosrspecial]

"Oh, I see. C calicosrspecial C calicosrspecial I did think exactly that - didn't want to reward her for negative behavior. I thought I read something about how that's a possibility though? Does it not apply in this particular situation because it's an introductory thing/social behavior?
For example, you're not supposed to give treats if they've jumped on the counter and you're trying to get them off, because they might associate jumping on the counter = treats?" - It can be a possibility. It is a bit complex. If a cat jumps on the counter and you feed on the counter then yes, it can encourage that. But if you coerce her to come down and then feed a treat elsewhere then it is a positive association with that area. It is a bit hard to explain. So in intros we are trying to get a positive association (using food or love). Making it a positive experience. So, I do this all the time and see that it actually encourages a positive encounter (enjoying something good and not having the other cat attack etc) rather than a reinforcement for the bad behavior. Now, using a "no" or an "it's ok" in a calm and confident voice and then the treat is a good way to diffuse the situation. It is more de-sensitizing rather than rewarding if that makes sense. I am not sure I am exactly explaining this well but I hope it kind of makes sense. So in this situation, I would just try to make every encounter (even right after something negative) as positive as possible. To help the cat know that there is not threat or nothing engative regarding that other cat.

"I meant to mention this before but K actually doesn't like heights that much! Is she a weird cat? She likes being low to the ground and exploring/hiding under things. We set up a few different high places for her and she generally ignored them all...we bought her this nice cat tree but she never used it. T loves it and sleeps in it though so it wasn't a waste." - Some cats do not need height to build confidence. So that is not weird and is perfectly fine. Now, "hiding" would be a sign of lack of confidence so watching if she just likes being low or if it is a sign of a lack of confidence. So watch the body language. Walking tall, tail up, etc as signs. And as K gets more confidence maybe K will use it. It is GREAT that T uses it. The 4 pillars of confidence (Play, Food, Height and Love) don't all need to be met to build confidence. It just gives all the options to achieve the goal of building confidence. Anything to let the cat know all is fine.

"They are both lying down and being quiet and chill! Without me or my partner around! This has to be good, right?" POSITIVE encounter!! This is great. Anytime they are together and nothing negative happens it is a positive. Reinforcing that is great.

Since T likes height you might want to consider adding cat shelving as it can give another option to build confidence AND give escape routes especially in tight areas. They can actually look really nice. Of course, if you live in a rental check with your landlord etc. Using dressers, bookcases, couches, desks, etc can achieve it as well without putting something in the wall.

 

[cat nap]

!!! Update as I finished writing! Sorry for the grainy photo but my partner took it and had to zoom in so we didn't disturb them. I'm sitting around the corner from K typing this, I actually can't see them.

They are both lying down and being quiet and chill! Without me or my partner around! This has to be good, right?

P.S. You can also see little scraps of paper everywhere on the floor. K has taken to shredding the craft paper we leave around for her to play in and I honestly think the scraps are multiplying by themselves when I'm not looking

Good? This is awesomely fantastic!
I am literally 'over the moon' by the above photo. (like when watching the movie Apollo 13, and the astronauts come home...that kind of feeling.)

You have to totally thank your partner, for capturing this moment on film, because it's everything. (like make a special dinner, do the household chores, stuff like that.)
I'm not sure if it would have had the same impact, ...if you had just written about it. Sure, it would still be amazing... but the photo describes a whole lot more.

P.S. You can also see little scraps of paper everywhere on the floor. K has taken to shredding the craft paper we leave around for her to play in and I honestly think the scraps are multiplying by themselves when I'm not looking

'multiplying by themselves'....
On the bright side, you'll have a built in paper-shredder with K.
(One of my friends, from this Site, also has a cat who likes to shred all her mail, cardboard, and paper. I told her, that if he likes to shred her account bills, that might be good. She said it would have been, except that she didn't actually pay the bill, yet. oops)

(I have a few more comments on the rest of your post....but need to step out now. Be back later.)

 

[acari]

It is more de-sensitizing rather than rewarding if that makes sense. I am not sure I am exactly explaining this well but I hope it kind of makes sense.

C calicosrspecial Yes, this does make sense. I tried it today after K ran at the gate (saying no, but immediately following up with talking to her and a treat)...actually I feel like it backfired a bit, because K dashed past me as I was reassuring her to run at the gate again, which she hasn't done before.

I've been thinking about it and I'm remembering that back before we adopted T, K used to play rather violently with her tail - I think at the very beginning we weren't playing with her enough. We would stop whatever we were doing and try to calm her down/get her to stop, because we were worried initially that she might be hurting herself.
But after a bit, she started to play with her tail, purposefully making lots of noise, just to get our attention - even if we'd already played lots recently and she didn't want to play more. I honestly think she was trying to manipulate us!
Because we were sure we were playing with her enough, we started to ignore her when she did it. Now she never plays with her tail unless we've been particularly busy and weren't able to play with her as much as she wanted. It's like her "ultimate" way of asking us for something.

I bring this up only because the way she runs at the gate kind of reminds me of that situation - doing something she knows will get "negative" attention from us, but she still wants to do it...? Does that make sense?

Anyway I don't mean that I think this is what's happening, I'll just be keeping an eye on how she acts when she does it (since she's doing it more - twice today already) in case she is just trying to be bratty about getting attention.

So watch the body language. Walking tall, tail up, etc as signs.

K's tail is usually up when she's walking around near the gate, even after she's run at/pawed at T. But her ears will go down to the sides briefly, usually because we're telling her No and Don't Be Mean. The ears return to normal once she's a certain distance from the gate/our reprimands.

Using dressers, bookcases, couches, desks, etc can achieve it as well without putting something in the wall.

We have a set of IKEA KALLAX cases of differing heights, set up with some "steps" to make a staircase. It goes almost all the way to our ceiling.
K has only gone up there maybe three times (like I said, she doesn't prefer to be high up).
T hasn't had enough time to get familiar with the living room yet where it's set up, but she's actually hesitant to jump past a certain height if there's nothing to hold onto, so I'm not sure she'll try. One day in the distant future I think she'll enjoy it.

I am literally 'over the moon' by the above photo. (like when watching the movie Apollo 13, and the astronauts come home...that kind of feeling.)

You have to totally thank your partner, for capturing this moment on film, because it's everything. (like make a special dinner, do the household chores, stuff like that.)

cat nap I did! I hope one day we'll look back at this picture fondly! They ended up sitting like that for ten minutes before I made the mistake of shifting in my chair. K heard me and came over to investigate. They might have stayed longer if I were willing to give up the circulation in my legs...

On the bright side, you'll have a built in paper-shredder with K.

We'll have to be careful to always leave some paper around just for her, in case she starts looking for other things!


Well, anyway, as I mentioned above, K ran at the gate again so I'm worried it's becoming a habit. T still just retreats a few steps back and waits to see what will happen next, she doesn't seem to be getting more scared at least.

I blocked off the bottom of the gate with cardboard so that T can't see out and K can't see in. T is pretty unhappy with this.
K basically immediately got up on her hind legs to peer over the cardboard, but then she made herself mad when she saw T. She hasn't looked over again, though.

T is starting to trill more at K - if she sees her sitting over there, if K is walking by to get to her food, if K is going to drink some water, etc. She seems to sound a bit more frustrated but I'm not sure if that's my imagination.

T is also looking at the top of the gate more often than I'd like. She really looks like she's considering jumping it somehow, possibly even from the top of the stairs (I saw her doing that head nodding calibrating thing). I stacked some cardboard on top of the gate to discourage her but it's not very stable...I really hope she doesn't get it into her little head that she can make the jump.

Not that anyone asked for a blow-by-blow as every tiny little thing happens!! I just can't shake the feeling that we'll be stuck like this for a long time to come or that we're on the edge of a huge disaster (for example if T manages to jump seven feet in order to terrorize K).

Thank you so much for reading!

 

[cat nap]

I hope one day we'll look back at this picture fondly! They ended up sitting like that for ten minutes before I made the mistake of shifting in my chair. K heard me and came over to investigate. They might have stayed longer if I were willing to give up the circulation in my legs...

Umm...yeah...no need to want to give up circulation in the human's legs....
This was a first....(and you have it on film)....so you will know that it will also happen again.

We'll have to be careful to always leave some paper around just for her, in case she starts looking for other things!

Yes, just make sure that K does not actually 'eat' the paper. I doubt she will, but it's still good to keep an eye on her chewing, for a bit.

Not that anyone asked for a blow-by-blow as every tiny little thing happens!! I just can't shake the feeling that we'll be stuck like this for a long time to come or that we're on the edge of a huge disaster (for example if T manages to jump seven feet in order to terrorize K).

I enjoy the updates. They are progress reports on how things are going between the two cats and how the cat intro's are moving.

Well, anyway, as I mentioned above, K ran at the gate again so I'm worried it's becoming a habit. T still just retreats a few steps back and waits to see what will happen next, she doesn't seem to be getting more scared at least.

I blocked off the bottom of the gate with cardboard so that T can't see out and K can't see in. T is pretty unhappy with this.
K basically immediately got up on her hind legs to peer over the cardboard, but then she made herself mad when she saw T. She hasn't looked over again, though.

What was the problem with K running at the gate?
I'm not following, why you are discouraging K from doing this?

T is starting to trill more at K - if she sees her sitting over there, if K is walking by to get to her food, if K is going to drink some water, etc. She seems to sound a bit more frustrated but I'm not sure if that's my imagination.

T is also looking at the top of the gate more often than I'd like. She really looks like she's considering jumping it somehow, possibly even from the top of the stairs (I saw her doing that head nodding calibrating thing). I stacked some cardboard on top of the gate to discourage her but it's not very stable...I really hope she doesn't get it into her little head that she can make the jump.

Yes, I do think that T will jump that gate, or at least try to.

I just can't shake the feeling that we'll be stuck like this for a long time to come...

Do you mean 'stuck'....with gates up all the time? Or do you mean stuck with something else?
I'm not understanding where the 'stuck' feeling is coming from?

...or that we're on the edge of a huge disaster (for example if T manages to jump seven feet in order to terrorize K).

Not a huge disaster....and I doubt that T will terrorize K.

But can you tell me more, about your fear of K....running up to the gate.?
Or how K acts when she does this?
I know you mentioned that K hits with both paws at the gate, and scares T,....but then you said that T comes back.
(I must have missed reading something, somewhere. I'll look back.)

I'm not following why you had to block it off, after that moment of both cats being able to sleep near each other?