Cat intros at a standstill

[acari]

Yes, just make sure that K does not actually 'eat' the paper.

We've watched her very carefully since she started the shredding but she will spit out even the tiniest fiber of paper, so we're not too concerned - we will always keep an eye on this though.

Yes, I do think that T will jump that gate, or at least try to.

You can't see it in the photo I posted but the gate is four feet tall. I don't think she could jump it just standing, and then from a higher step I think the jump is too far for her. I'm mostly concerned about her hurting herself with an attempt.

What was the problem with K running at the gate?
I'm not following, why you are discouraging K from doing this?

But can you tell me more, about your fear of K....running up to the gate.?
Or how K acts when she does this?
I know you mentioned that K hits with both paws at the gate, and scares T,....but then you said that T comes back.
(I must have missed reading something, somewhere. I'll look back.)

I'm not following why you had to block it off, after that moment of both cats being able to sleep near each other?

I guess both you and calico have said that it's normal and not really an issue that K does this running and pawing, but my impression was that it's still considered negative, which is not something we should encourage. Should I instead be allowing this to happen without interference?

Well, before, K would be crouched at the gate or maybe walking nearby, and if she felt more anxious or tense for some reason she would suddenly close the gap between them and paw at the wire (like "lightning"). She would do it so that T would react, then K would leave immediately.
But now, she's running from much farther away to get to the gate, decisively and purposefully. Usually she's running past me to do it (like I am already interacting with her in some way). And if I don't get up or say anything, she stays at the gate, staring at T. But I don't know how it would play out, because I do still come over to interrupt every time, even if it's a few seconds late.
It just doesn't read as playful to me but I'm not very familiar with cats, obviously, and I guess K has never really exhibited "cute happy playful" vibes even when playing normally with us. She never looks like she's having fun, it's like she's asking us to annoy her with toys so that she can take her aggression out on them. Same with her scratching pads - she looks like she's mad at them instead of scratching for enjoyment or anything.
T on the other hand does actually seem playful a lot of the time. So maybe K's style of playing just looks aggressive to me?

Do you mean 'stuck'....with gates up all the time? Or do you mean stuck with something else?
I'm not understanding where the 'stuck' feeling is coming from?

"Stuck" just meaning no clear progress towards a next step.
Because K was avoiding T until we brought the gate down to its current location, we've been "stuck" at this step (face-to-face with gate blocking) for what seems like forever - I know it's not though!

Progress report: Took away the barrier since my partner came home and we have two people now to keep an eye on things.
T was lying down, K walked over and sat down, watching her calmly. I gave them a few treats each, then walked away.
K then went cautiously up close to the gate, crouched a bit low, tail not up but not down (middle?) and just looked at T for about ten seconds. T stayed lying down and looked back calmly for once (usually she is fidgety and excited), then K turned around to leave.
I gave her an extra treat after that.

 

[cat nap]

I guess both you and calico have said that it's normal and not really an issue that K does this running and pawing, but my impression was that it's still considered negative, which is not something we should encourage. Should I instead be allowing this to happen without interference?

Yes, allow it to happen, and if you can, just watch from a distance....take some videos for yourselves....so you can watch the videos closer, to see how K's actions are lessening, changing, diminishing.

Well, before, K would be crouched at the gate or maybe walking nearby, and if she felt more anxious or tense for some reason she would suddenly close the gap between them and paw at the wire (like "lightning"). She would do it so that T would react, then K would leave immediately.
But now, she's running from much farther away to get to the gate, decisively and purposefully. Usually she's running past me to do it (like I am already interacting with her in some way). And if I don't get up or say anything, she stays at the gate, staring at T. But I don't know how it would play out, because I do still come over to interrupt every time, even if it's a few seconds late.
It just doesn't read as playful to me but I'm not very familiar with cats, obviously, and I guess K has never really exhibited "cute happy playful" vibes even when playing normally with us. She never looks like she's having fun, it's like she's asking us to annoy her with toys so that she can take her aggression out on them. Same with her scratching pads - she looks like she's mad at them instead of scratching for enjoyment or anything.
T on the other hand does actually seem playful a lot of the time. So maybe K's style of playing just looks aggressive to me?

Yeah, I think it's just exactly how you said it...their styles of playing are just different.

You asked before, if K acted normal, in some of the actions she does. There really is no 'normal' for every cat, because every cat is unique, and their personalities are unique, too.

So K being more 'treat obsessed'....is entirely normal.
Or the way K seems to take her aggression out on her toys....is another unique way in how she plays.

She sounds like she gets 'a bit hyper' in the way she plays, or scratches? Like a little wild? Or high-spirited?

"Stuck" just meaning no clear progress towards a next step.
Because K was avoiding T until we brought the gate down to its current location, we've been "stuck" at this step (face-to-face with gate blocking) for what seems like forever - I know it's not though!

How many days has the gate been down at the bottom of the stairs?

(Remember....you're talking to someone, who has some 'strange ability to talk in milliseconds...oops.
I'm not sure why I put the decimals in the wrong locations. It's like I have some super-power to warp time into really fast milliseconds...but you have the opposite power of 'slowing down time'...maybe. What was it you mentioned before....like a year's gone by with these cat intros....but you really know it hasn't. ) We will combine our super-powers for good.)

Progress report: Took away the barrier since my partner came home and we have two people now to keep an eye on things.
T was lying down, K walked over and sat down, watching her calmly. I gave them a few treats each, then walked away.
K then went cautiously up close to the gate, crouched a bit low, tail not up but not down (middle?) and just looked at T for about ten seconds. T stayed lying down and looked back calmly for once (usually she is fidgety and excited), then K turned around to leave.
I gave her an extra treat after that.

 

[cat nap]

...But just now I tried playing with K near the gate and she obliged, with T watching. And when K needed a quick breather I brought the toy over to T's side and played with her, with K watching. I think it went well! Thanks for the suggestion!!
(However I feel like this is largely dependent on K's mood, she happened to feel like running around today.)

That's okay, if only one cat wants to play near the gate, and if the other cat is just watching from a distance.

I meant to mention this before but K actually doesn't like heights that much! Is she a weird cat? She likes being low to the ground and exploring/hiding under things. We set up a few different high places for her and she generally ignored them all...we bought her this nice cat tree but she never used it. T loves it and sleeps in it though so it wasn't a waste.

Not a weird cat at all. I think I watched an episode of Jackson Galaxy, where he mentioned that cats are either 'bush dwellers or tree dwellers'...or something like that. It was quite interesting. I think that some cats can be both.

(My cats like to be low, too, but occasionally like to climb, or be up higher. My male cat really likes heights, and looking down from above, but the female likes beds. And sometimes the male cat is sprawled in the middle of the floor, like the dog. Or he takes over the dog bed, too.)

You're right, I'll try to figure this out soon. I think it would make the most sense to get T more comfortable with the living room, so that if something scares her she won't need to run back to her room (because then K would be in there).

See if you can get them to switch territories.
Also continue with the playing near the gate, with toys.

 

[calicosrspecial]

"I feel like it backfired a bit, because K dashed past me as I was reassuring her to run at the gate again" - If you feel like it didn't work then just try to be neutral with her and use something (anything) to distract her. Anything to keep her calm, confident, positive or neutral. So for example (and I know you don;t do this but for an extreme example) if someone yells at a cat then it just escalates things. We want to keep a calm and confident and an "nothing to see here" type emotional stance as cats take on our emotions. So we really want her to not charge the gate to keep it positive. So anything that you can use to distract is good. Now the charging doesn't really bother T it seems so K will get out of it since there really is no benefit to it but it does show us that K still wants to tell T not to try anything. SO the more we build K's confidence and build that trust the less she will charge (and eventually not charge).

Playing with her tail - Typically that is just wanting to play. A tail can move like prey so it is pretty exciting to a cat. It is just a sign of a cat wanting to play and typically a young cat can never get enough play. I am not certain that it is really an attempt to manipulate. Of course, cats do do things to get us (or other cats to play) but it isn't too calculating. But just do what you believe works (or not do what you think doesn't work). I think how the emotions interact is typically more important than some actions.

I guess what I am trying to say are there are guidelines but no real "rules". So we do what we think will work rather than worrying about having to follow certain things. And since cats respond to our emotions the more the human is calm, confident, positive during the process the more likely the cat will take on those emotions.

"K's tail is usually up when she's walking around near the gate, even after she's run at/pawed at T. But her ears will go down to the sides briefly, usually because we're telling her No and Don't Be Mean. The ears return to normal once she's a certain distance from the gate/our reprimands." - Tail up is a good sign of confidence. Of course, a lot of times a good offense is a good defense so "getting big" and showing confidence tends to help tell the other cat not to mess with them.

"We have a set of IKEA KALLAX cases of differing heights, set up with some "steps" to make a staircase. It goes almost all the way to our ceiling." - Great. This is a good option for them to use anytime.

"K ran at the gate again so I'm worried it's becoming a habit." - This is just a normal part of the process. K (or any resident cat) is worried about what this "intruder" (T) is going to do to them. Will they attack and try to kill them? Will they take away the food and water? Will they make life miserable? This is very common. Our goal is to show the resident cat (K) that the new cat (T) doesn't mean harm or anything bad. Some cats learn the other cat doesn't mean anything bad faster some take longer. That is why we try to make positive associations and positive encounters. As the more often they are together and nothing negative happens it builds trust and confidence and acceptance.

"T still just retreats a few steps back and waits to see what will happen next, she doesn't seem to be getting more scared at least." - This is a good sign. Because the more confident and trusting T is the less likely K will continue as cats tend to not "attack" confident cats or cats that don't act like prey.

"T is also looking at the top of the gate more often than I'd like. She really looks like she's considering jumping it somehow, possibly even from the top of the stairs (I saw her doing that head nodding calibrating thing)." - This tells me that T is not thinking that K is that worrying which will be good in helping them get together.

It really is all about getting K to realize that T is not a threat. Positive associations and positive encounters.

"I just can't shake the feeling that we'll be stuck like this for a long time to come or that we're on the edge of a huge disaster (for example if T manages to jump seven feet in order to terrorize K)." - Intros can take some time but I see no reason why they will not get along. We do need to do our work. I don't think you are on the edge of a huge disaster. Just try to take it slow and build that trust. We do want to keep T physically away from K for now, now get too far ahead of the process. We need to get more of those moments where they are near each other with something positive happening (either positive association or nothing negative happening). Distract as needed to avoid negativity.

"I guess both you and calico have said that it's normal and not really an issue that K does this running and pawing, but my impression was that it's still considered negative, which is not something we should encourage. Should I instead be allowing this to happen without interference?" - There are different levels of negative. The running and pawing is not a worrying negative. It is normal during the process and can be overcome. A fight with blood, etc is negative too but on a whole different level. So there is nuance in negative encounters. No, we want to distract in a positive way to short circuit or even avert a charge at T. So no, do not allow this without distraction if at all possible. If you can distract in a positive way it turns a potential negative into a positive.

"Progress report: Took away the barrier since my partner came home and we have two people now to keep an eye on things.
T was lying down, K walked over and sat down, watching her calmly. I gave them a few treats each, then walked away.
K then went cautiously up close to the gate, crouched a bit low, tail not up but not down (middle?) and just looked at T for about ten seconds. T stayed lying down and looked back calmly for once (usually she is fidgety and excited), then K turned around to leave.
I gave her an extra treat after that." - GREAT. I LOVE that K turned around and left. SUCCESS!!! Personally, I would be at the gate reassuring K that "it is ok" in a calm and confident voice. It is all about letting K know that everything is "cool'. T is helping with the calm and confident manner. If T is acting more nervous/anxious then it will cause K to act that way. Cats respond to emotions (whether humans or other cats). SO the more calm and confident T acts the more that will help in getting K to trust.

Everything you are experiencing is normal. We deal with this all the time. We just need to work on getting K to believe that T is a positive and does not represent a threat. And making those positive associations with food and making every encounter as positive as possible will yield results at some point down the road. Keep playing with K as well to build confidence. And try to stay as calm and confident around them as possible as cats take on our emotions.

Don't worry, we will get you through this. Just keep those big picture ideas in your mind while interacting with them. It really is all about positive associations, building confidence, positive encounters, and distracting as needed to avoid negatives.

 

[cat nap]

"Progress report: Took away the barrier since my partner came home and we have two people now to keep an eye on things.
T was lying down, K walked over and sat down, watching her calmly. I gave them a few treats each, then walked away.
K then went cautiously up close to the gate, crouched a bit low, tail not up but not down (middle?) and just looked at T for about ten seconds. T stayed lying down and looked back calmly for once (usually she is fidgety and excited), then K turned around to leave.
I gave her an extra treat after that." - GREAT. I LOVE that K turned around and left. SUCCESS!!! Personally, I would be at the gate reassuring K that "it is ok" in a calm and confident voice. It is all about letting K know that everything is "cool'. T is helping with the calm and confident manner. If T is acting more nervous/anxious then it will cause K to act that way. Cats respond to emotions (whether humans or other cats). SO the more calm and confident T acts the more that will help in getting K to trust.

C calicosrspecial ....I think we are giving A acari .... 2 different ideas....on what to do, when K runs at the gate.
I advise them to let her run, and watch from a distance to see what happens, while videotaping.
Your idea is to distract K from doing this?

I wouldn't be at the gate, at this point in time....but you said you personally would be at the gate and reassuring K.?
I can see both methods working....so now I am confused....as to which would be more beneficial, in this particular situation?
Doesn't too much interference from us humans, confuse our cats, and make them more nervous?

(Please don't find the above questions, on my part, to be in any way disrespectful to the detailed advice you have given.
In no way do I question your methods, since you work with ferals, and have so much experience with cats,...It's only because I don't want to be giving the wrong advice, in my posts.) I hope I don't come off, as being rude or argumentative.

 

[cat nap]

A acari Here's the other link to the Site Help pages, showing how to upload a video.
Site Help is at the bottom of the TCS (the Cat Site), main-page.
(Not sure how different it is than the previous 'embed a video'.)

How To Upload And Add Videos To Your Posts – Cat Articles

 

[calicosrspecial]

Because of time constraints and my trust in your opinions I actually don't read your posts. I did see Acari mention something about chasing and I am guessing that is where the response was.

Oh my, don't worry. I did not take this personally or disrespectful or anything. We both have the same goal, to make this intro a success. I actually hope that people feel comfortable to question anything I suggest. It didn't enter my mind that your post might even be in the slightest "rude" or "argumentative". I think it is a very good question. Like I said I think somewhere earlier. It isn't law, it really is more art than science and many methods can work well. Cats respond to different methods all the time. I think the key is to find what works and then take that path.

Well, I am just not sure that they are at the point that they can withstand some potentially sustained negativity. I tend to be more hands on early in the intro process to build that trust through positive encounters (to build that base of trust). What I tend to worry about is getting distrust built in (and that would be mostly on the the cat being charged which in this case would be T). Now the good news is T is acting well at this point. But I tend to be more cautious and try to build a really solid foundation so later on when we have to let them "get into it" so that we can learn where they are they can handle it.

I do worry that if K keeps charging we may see retrenchment from T. I am not sure T is confident enough at this point. Though T seems to be doing better.

Doesn't too much interference from us humans, confuse our cats, and make them more nervous? - I think it depends. It depends on how the human's emotions are. So when we are dealing with ferals I'll see a rookie interact with the ferals and see the ferals get more "on edge" because they sense the fear in the "rookie". I'll come in and they settle down a bit. So since cats pick up on our emotions so well it really depends on how the emotions are when doing it. So, if the human is really worried about an attack happening and anxious that will most likely lead to something bad happening. Whereas if the human is like "everything is cool, there is no issue" then tend to be more relaxed. I remember once going up to a cat to feed some chicken. I thought it was a feral I knew. I walked up to this cat as calm and cool as I would to a known cat. When I bent down and was going to hand feed I looked at the cat and realized it was a cat I didn't know. I'll admit, I had a moment of panic but luckily had chicken with me and the cat was distracted with that rather than realizing I was shaken. Luckily I calmed down pretty quickly and all went well. But it could have gone bad pretty easily.

So basically if the human can be there in a positive way I think that is a good thing since it makes a positive association and there is a "halo effect" (we are the something good - like food). I have actually used cats as this as well.

Now, if the human is going to be anxious, nervous, then the cats will pick up on that and it will make it worse and it probably will be a negative encounter.

So it really depends in my view. For the most part, the human is usually a positive association.

I am a big believer in trying to minimize negative encounters and maximize positive encounters. If I could have no negative encounters by being involved constantly (distracting), personally would do that. That is my goal. Now of course at times negative encounters do happen that we can't avoid but trying to minimize is best I believe. At some point later on we do have to allow some negativity to see where the cats are but even then ideally I try to avoid it.

I just tend to be more cautious generally. I know I just helped on an intro and was too cautious and the cats could have been together sooner (in hindsight). But it is a fine balance. The biggest mistake I see is moving too quickly in intros. That doesn't mean it can't work but usually the probability is increased by being cautious.

I am not sure if that helps lead us to "the answer" in this case but just generally that is how I kind of think. Rightly or wrongly. Hopefully that kind of makes some sense.

This is one of the reasons why I was afraid of getting "too many cooks in the kitchen" and why I have tried to stay a bit more on the sidelines. I trust your opinions so tried to stay more "strategic" rather than "tactical" in my responses (to varying degrees of success).

I have no doubt this intro will succeed. With what I have read and knowing you are committed I think success will be the result. K just needs to realize that T doesn't mean any harm. And they both need a bit of a confidence boost ( as most cats in intros do because if they didn't they would accept the other cat - as confident cats are less likely to attack or be attacked which is usually the source of distrust).

So that is kind of the thinking behind the advice. I hope it makes some sense.

I will be busy here for the rest of the day so the next chance I will be able to get on here will be tomorrow.

 

[cat nap]

Because of time constraints and my trust in your opinions I actually don't read your posts. I did see Acari mention something about chasing and I am guessing that is where the response was.

Ahh, okay....this explains it, then. Thanks for clearing this up.

Oh my, don't worry. I did not take this personally or disrespectful or anything. We both have the same goal, to make this intro a success. I actually hope that people feel comfortable to question anything I suggest. It didn't enter my mind that your post might even be in the slightest "rude" or "argumentative". I think it is a very good question. Like I said I think somewhere earlier. It isn't law, it really is more art than science and many methods can work well. Cats respond to different methods all the time. I think the key is to find what works and then take that path.

Yes, we definitely have the same goals.
It's just that last week, I was thinking to myself...."that I don't do 'proper cat intros'....or rather ' extremely slow cat intros'....but rather 'modified cat intros....where I base my actions on how the cats' respond'. So maybe the advice I am giving is not proper.

I learned many of these cat intro techniques, from being on this Site, and learning from previous members.
I am only familiar with the "5 Senses Method".....(Hear, Smell, Sight....Taste, and Touch)...and so your method of "Play, Food, Height, and Love"....is kind of new to me. (I remember it by the mnemonic: 'Please Feed Her Lion").
But yes, I would agree that using whatever works for your particular cat is good.

I do worry that if K keeps charging we may see retrenchment from T. I am not sure T is confident enough at this point. Though T seems to be doing better.

I know that A acari mentioned 'charging'....but I am thinking that it is more 'running'...as in playing and not anything quite as aggressive.

Doesn't too much interference from us humans, confuse our cats, and make them more nervous? - I think it depends. It depends on how the human's emotions are. So when we are dealing with ferals I'll see a rookie interact with the ferals and see the ferals get more "on edge" because they sense the fear in the "rookie". I'll come in and they settle down a bit. So since cats pick up on our emotions so well it really depends on how the emotions are when doing it. So, if the human is really worried about an attack happening and anxious that will most likely lead to something bad happening. Whereas if the human is like "everything is cool, there is no issue" then tend to be more relaxed.

I hear you on that,... human emotions are picked up by our cats all the time.
Probably as much as our movements, actions, tone of voice, too.

I am a big believer in trying to minimize negative encounters and maximize positive encounters. If I could have no negative encounters by being involved constantly (distracting), personally would do that. That is my goal. Now of course at times negative encounters do happen that we can't avoid but trying to minimize is best I believe. At some point later on we do have to allow some negativity to see where the cats are but even then ideally I try to avoid it.

I just tend to be more cautious generally. I know I just helped on an intro and was too cautious and the cats could have been together sooner (in hindsight). But it is a fine balance. The biggest mistake I see is moving too quickly in intros. That doesn't mean it can't work but usually the probability is increased by being cautious.

Ah, okay,...I guess I tend to be not as cautious....with cat intros...(which is strange, since in everything else I tend to be slower, researching and cautious.) I guess I just figure that our cats know more than we do.

This is one of the reasons why I was afraid of getting "too many cooks in the kitchen" and why I have tried to stay a bit more on the sidelines. I trust your opinions so tried to stay more "strategic" rather than "tactical" in my responses (to varying degrees of success).

Yes, I too, was wondering about that age old saying, "having too many cooks spoils the broth", but then I really enjoy it when others post, with their own cat experiences, and advice.
I find this the ultimate beauty of this Site.
Everyone has their own cat experiences, and by hearing from different members, and different methods, advice, experience,...then we all learn from each other.
Though, yes, this can sometimes lead to confusion, so I totally get the 'too many cooks' scenario.

I have no doubt this intro will succeed. With what I have read and knowing you are committed I think success will be the result. K just needs to realize that T doesn't mean any harm. And they both need a bit of a confidence boost ( as most cats in intros do because if they didn't they would accept the other cat - as confident cats are less likely to attack or be attacked which is usually the source of distrust).

So that is kind of the thinking behind the advice. I hope it makes some sense.

I will be busy here for the rest of the day so the next chance I will be able to get on here will be tomorrow.

I could also tell that A acari is really committed to making these cat intros work.
I somehow find it hard to believe that they are first time cat guardians. Since they have done everything by the book, researched beforehand, and taken the necessary steps to make this intro as smooth-going as possible.

Maybe some people have the 'cat whisperer gene', ...inside of them,...they just don't know it, yet.

Thanks again C calicosrspecial for clearing these things up. Have a great day/night, and see you tomorrow.

 

[acari]

How many days has the gate been down at the bottom of the stairs?

cat nap It has been down there since 11/24, and we have done at least one session a day. And the past few days the gate has actually been up almost the entire day but there isn't always a human on T's side.

With the gate up most of the time, T has been keeping herself awake the whole day even though she's clearly sleepy sometimes, only going to sleep once we put her back in her room (and even then, she doesn't want to go!).
But today she got bored, I guess, of us not being on her side or paying her much attention (and K just sleeps the day away), so she went all the way back upstairs to sleep in her little house even though the gate was up. I wonder if that means she's more comfortable? She has still never fully fallen asleep around us, ever, but she has a lot of energy...

She sounds like she gets 'a bit hyper' in the way she plays, or scratches? Like a little wild? Or high-spirited?

Wild is a good word for it. It is very...forceful? If she weren't so consistently gentle with us I would be worried that she would hurt us seriously during play, but she's very careful to avoid us actually.

Here's the other link to the Site Help pages, showing how to upload a video.

Thank you! I'll see if I can get any videos but the running thing happens so fast and without warning that I'm not sure I'll be able to.

Yes, allow it to happen, and if you can, just watch from a distance....take some videos for yourselves....so you can watch the videos closer, to see how K's actions are lessening, changing, diminishing.

No, we want to distract in a positive way to short circuit or even avert a charge at T. So no, do not allow this without distraction if at all possible. If you can distract in a positive way it turns a potential negative into a positive.

Personally, I would be at the gate reassuring K that "it is ok" in a calm and confident voice.

I can definitely see the thought process behind both strategies here. I think what will happen organically is both, actually, but if we want to be more cautious then we would lean towards C calicosrspecial 's suggestion of distraction. Because we can't police the gate every second that they are out, sometimes they will interact without us right there. But because we're pretty invested, we are usually nearby, and we can distract and reassure in those cases.

Doesn't too much interference from us humans, confuse our cats, and make them more nervous?

I am worried about this too and I appreciate C calicosrspecial 's answer. I think in most situations T considers us (the humans) as a positive, but I am actually not very sure about K.
K prefers distance and doesn't like to be cuddled or pet except when she is in the mood, and that is rather rare. So maybe my presence just adds an extra layer of unneeded stimulation for her...?
I think I might try leaving a few treats near the gate so she can eat them in her own time, perhaps that might help. I just have to get them out and put them down without her noticing, which is its own struggle.

SO the more we build K's confidence and build that trust the less she will charge (and eventually not charge).

C calicosrspecial Do you think it's a normal progression for her to do this more before hopefully doing it less? Or is it not a good sign that she's increasing the number of charges?

I know that A acari A acari mentioned 'charging'....but I am thinking that it is more 'running'...as in playing and not anything quite as aggressive.

This is asking a lot, I know, but I was wondering if you could provide any video examples of cats charging? I will keep looking but for now I'm just finding "funny" videos of cats "charging" (as in batteries). It would be good for me to know the difference between charging and running.

This is one of the reasons why I was afraid of getting "too many cooks in the kitchen" and why I have tried to stay a bit more on the sidelines.

C calicosrspecial No way! Thank you so much for your input, cat nap has been so helpful but you have too! It's always great to hear from different people and get their perspective.

Since they have done everything by the book, researched beforehand, and taken the necessary steps to make this intro as smooth-going as possible.

cat nap Haha, thank you! Since neither of us had had a cat before we really wanted to make sure we educated ourselves as much as possible, because if we didn't then the cat(s) would suffer, right? We spent a lot of time reading the articles and forum posts on here and are so thankful for people like you!

 

[cat nap]

...It has been down there since 11/24, and we have done at least one session a day. And the past few days the gate has actually been up almost the entire day but there isn't always a human on T's side.

With the gate up most of the time, T has been keeping herself awake the whole day even though she's clearly sleepy sometimes, only going to sleep once we put her back in her room (and even then, she doesn't want to go!).
But today she got bored, I guess, of us not being on her side or paying her much attention (and K just sleeps the day away), so she went all the way back upstairs to sleep in her little house even though the gate was up. I wonder if that means she's more comfortable? She has still never fully fallen asleep around us, ever, but she has a lot of energy...

So about 3 weeks 3 days.
It doesn't matter if there is a human on either side, of the gate,...it only matters that the cats see each other and interact.
That way, you'll know, by either cat's reactions, when to move on to the next step.

Yes, T going back upstairs on her own, and also wanting to stay on the stairs, both indicate that she is way more comfortable with her home.
Her not fully falling asleep near you, is because she's still a kitten, everything is new, and she probably wants to both keep an eye on you, see if you'll be playing, and learning about how her humans are.
I think our cats study us, while we are not watching, too. You'll notice, that, sometimes, ...when you look at them, they're looking at you. It's cute.

Wild is a good word for it. It is very...forceful? If she weren't so consistently gentle with us I would be worried that she would hurt us seriously during play, but she's very careful to avoid us actually.

I'll see if I can get any videos but the running thing happens so fast and without warning that I'm not sure I'll be able to.

Watching cats playing, to me, is entertaining. It does look so intense.
Forceful would be a good word for it.

(And I agree, I cannot believe how intensely my male cat will play, but then be so very gentle with me, afterwards.
It's like he 'flips a switch off'...but sometimes I have to wait until he gets out of that 'play-mode'.)
The more you see your cats play, then you will notice it, too.

The videos would be helpful, for us here, to see how the action is going.
But don't worry if you cannot get any. Even if you get some for yourselves, and just play them back, that will help you see things you might have missed the first time around.

I found that Gif, really, really helpful. (As you can probably tell, by my play-by-play sports commentary.)

This is asking a lot, I know, but I was wondering if you could provide any video examples of cats charging? I will keep looking but for now I'm just finding "funny" videos of cats "charging" (as in batteries). It would be good for me to know the difference between charging and running.

Cats 'charging' (as in batteries)?? What type of sites are you visiting? lol.
No, this is not asking a lot at all. I'll see if I can find any.

I wanted you both, to look at "cat playing with other cat videos"....(but none of those 'cat fight' videos...because those videos are too extreme. I find they make me too nervous, make my animals too nervous, and should be watched with sound off. The only good part is when they end, and one cat manages to run off.)

The reason for watching other cat playing videos, is to be prepared for the later steps, when your cats actually meet, that you do not think it is too rough. (My friend would often think her cats were fighting, when really they were playing, by running, tumbling, wrestling, swatting, and then running some more.)

I can definitely see the thought process behind both strategies here. I think what will happen organically is both, actually, but if we want to be more cautious then we would lean towards C calicosrspecial 's suggestion of distraction. Because we can't police the gate every second that they are out, sometimes they will interact without us right there. But because we're pretty invested, we are usually nearby, and we can distract and reassure in those cases.

Yes, do what you think is best, since you are the ones that can actually see your cats, and see their responses.
Plus, like calicosrspecial mentioned...it builds a "solid foundation".

Well, I am just not sure that they are at the point that they can withstand some potentially sustained negativity. I tend to be more hands on early in the intro process to build that trust through positive encounters (to build that base of trust). What I tend to worry about is getting distrust built in (and that would be mostly on the the cat being charged which in this case would be T). Now the good news is T is acting well at this point. But I tend to be more cautious and try to build a really solid foundation so later on when we have to let them "get into it" so that we can learn where they are they can handle it.

Haha, thank you! Since neither of us had had a cat before we really wanted to make sure we educated ourselves as much as possible, because if we didn't then the cat(s) would suffer, right? We spent a lot of time reading the articles and forum posts on here and are so thankful for people like you!

You're going to give me a 'big swelled head', where I won't be able to walk through the doorways. lol.
Thank you for saying that, though. It's really nice to hear.

I think that the majority of members on the Cat Site are like this. There will always be someone, willing to help you with a cat-related issue. You're a member now, so in the future, you will be able to help out, too. Posting photos of your cats is the coolest way to do that. haha.

 

[calicosrspecial]

"I can definitely see the thought process behind both strategies here. I think what will happen organically is both, actually, but if we want to be more cautious then we would lean towards C calicosrspecial C calicosrspecial 's suggestion of distraction. Because we can't police the gate every second that they are out, sometimes they will interact without us right there. But because we're pretty invested, we are usually nearby, and we can distract and reassure in those cases." - Just do what you think is the most positive and watch how the cats act. The cats will tell us if they think it is something negative. So if they act like nothing is wrong then it is positive, if they start hiding or avoiding then they are telling us it is negative. K charging or running to the gate is telling me that K does not yet trust T so we need to build more positive associations and trust. So feeding next to each other, just making those encounters positive. If you have to block off sight I don't think that is bad if it makes a positive. Or if T is just hanging out upstairs and nowhere near the gate that is fine. Our goal is to get K to go up to the gate every time and just look at T and walk by or just sit there etc. To get K thinking "I know that cat, that cat is cool".

"I am worried about this too and I appreciate C calicosrspecial C calicosrspecial 's answer. I think in most situations T considers us (the humans) as a positive, but I am actually not very sure about K. K prefers distance and doesn't like to be cuddled or pet except when she is in the mood, and that is rather rare. So maybe my presence just adds an extra layer of unneeded stimulation for her...?" - Just because K doesn't like to be cuddled or only pet on her terms or keeps a distance is not necessarily a sign of you not being a positive. Some cat are more standoffish. Watch her body language when you are around. If her tail goes down or she walks lower things like that then she may be more cautious. Using food to make a positive association is a great way to build that bond. And not forcing attention on a cat, letting them ask for it. Things like that. I don;t know enough or see your interactions but I am guessing your presence is not causing over-stimulation. I think it probably is just as simple as this - Resident cats are fearful and don't trust new cats "invading" their territory. And we solve that by convincing the resident cat that the new cat doesn't mean an existential threat (either physically or to their food source, water source, litter box, or other territorial aspects).


"I think I might try leaving a few treats near the gate so she can eat them in her own time, perhaps that might help. I just have to get them out and put them down without her noticing, which is its own struggle." - the only risk is that T tries to get at them and then K wonders if this "invader" is even trying to get my treats. Of course, if T just is sitting there and K is eating the treats and not paying attention to T then it is a positive. Personally, I would tend to be there doing that. K does eat treats with you and T by the gate, correct?

"Do you think it's a normal progression for her to do this more before hopefully doing it less? Or is it not a good sign that she's increasing the number of charges?" - Yes. Cat intros are never linear. And often times (and this is what causes a lot of problems for many people) in the beginning cats are more standoffish to each other because they are so uncertain and so concerned and people confuse that with them "getting along" and that "everything is ok". And in reality it is just that they are sizing up this "threat" and figuring out how to counter them and protect themselves. So yes, we often see more "forceful" actions before they decline.

" C calicosrspecial No way! Thank you so much for your input, cat nap cat nap has been so helpful but you have too! It's always great to hear from different people and get their perspective. " - You are welcome. Well, there are multiple paths to successful cat intros. And from what I have read from cat nap I have confidence. So I have actually not been reading the posts because I have time constraints and I trust the advice. If the advice doesn't match then we figure out why. I am not perfect and can learn. What I worry about is creating confusion and confusion can create uncertain emotions and uncertain emotions can cause the cat to sense that and become more cautious. I am a big believer in emotions and the impact of those on cats. I have reached into unknown cats faces not realizing it was an unknown cat and I believe the only thing that saved me from a bite was that my emotions were calm and confident and didn't escalate the cat. It is complex and hard to explain.

"Since neither of us had had a cat before we really wanted to make sure we educated ourselves as much as possible, because if we didn't then the cat(s) would suffer, right? We spent a lot of time reading the articles and forum posts on here and are so thankful for people like you!"- This is why I know you will succeed. Successful intros come from knowledge and effort. You have the desire for the effort and we have the knowledge (which you are gaining). I do think you may be overthinking this a bit which again is very normal and common. Intros are always back and forth, two steps forward and 1, 2 or even 3 steps back at times. It is very rare that cats can;t be intro if someone puts in the right steps and effort. Intros can take a month or over a year. But ultimately cats care about eating, sleeping, staying warm, being safe. And if we give them that and the other cat isn't trying to kill them then they will get together.

The more videos you can post the better it will be to understand the cats and the interactions between them and with you. It is much easier to see them and interpret it rather than try to interpret via words. I know it is hard and a pain but if you can that is helpful.

Catnap,

"It's just that last week, I was thinking to myself...."that I don't do 'proper cat intros'....or rather ' extremely slow cat intros'....but rather 'modified cat intros....where I base my actions on how the cats' respond'. So maybe the advice I am giving is not proper." - I am a little confused but I'll try to address this. I think questioning ourselves is always good and listening to others. To base your actions on how the cats respond I think is exactly correct. For example, I am helping someone now with a VERY complex situation. 4 resident cats, 2 ferals. I would do things more cautiously, very different but this person is doing it in their way and seeing success. The cats are responding unbelievably well. Totally not "by the book" but it works. I think because of the human mainly so it is not able to be replicated most likely but it works. And we know it works by how the cats respond. Ultimately the cats tell us if what we are doing is working. So I think there are a lot of ways to achieve success. I have a way that works, I am sure others have other ways that work. I think there are multiple routes to success and finding the right fit for the cats involved is key. Basically our goal is to just assure the cat(s) that the other cat(s) are not going to be a negative and is either a positive (play buddy, sleeping, grooming buddy) or a non-event (they co-exist in peace). As long as the cats are happy in the end that is all that matters.

"I learned many of these cat intro techniques, from being on this Site, and learning from previous members." - that is great. I wish I would have had a site like this when I was learning.


"I am only familiar with the "5 Senses Method".....(Hear, Smell, Sight....Taste, and Touch)...and so your method of "Play, Food, Height, and Love"....is kind of new to me. (I remember it by the mnemonic: 'Please Feed Her Lion"). But yes, I would agree that using whatever works for your particular cat is good. " - You are well more advanced than I am. I have never heard of the 5 Senses method but I am self taught. But basically that is what I use just in different terms. Hear - having a door closed so reduce the sounds. Of course, we can;t control when a cat makes a sound. Smell - feeding on each side of a closed door and scent swapping. Sight - Gates allowing for opening up a touch. Taste - Food positive association. Touch - Maybe getting the other cat's scent on the other cat. Petting them to get the scents together? Please Feed Her Lion - THAT is impressive and creative. I just took what I do and put them together. So Play (Hunting in the wild) is building confidence, distraction. Feed - because cats LOVE food and it makes a positive association. And in the wild "success" is hunting and then eating the prey. Then they groom themselves and go to sleep. Height - builds confidence for many cats. When a coyote chasing a cat they go up a tree. They are safe.Cats like to observe what is below them. Builds confidence, safety. And Love - Emotions. Getting cats to feel comfortable, loved. To build confidence. Getting a cat to purr which is a sign on contentment. Eye kisses. Etc. Play, Food, Height and Love is easy and simple (like my mind) and I hope gets it pretty easy for people to understand. Actions, nothing esoteric. Kind of like see Dick and Jane run up the hill. It is pretty much all the same, just how our brains use it I guess.

"I know that A acari A acari mentioned 'charging'....but I am thinking that it is more 'running'...as in playing and not anything quite as aggressive." - yeah, I would have to see it. It is like reading a view of Kilimanjaro vs seeing a picture of it or even better being there. Words can't usually do it justice. There is nuance that only video can really show (or being there).

"I hear you on that,... human emotions are picked up by our cats all the time." - Totally.

"Probably as much as our movements, actions, tone of voice, too." - Well they tend to blend in. If we are anxious our movements usually are different. Etc. I truly believe all of this has a huge impact on cats. I have a lot of personal experience on this. Even now it still amazes me how much it matters.

"Ah, okay,...I guess I tend to be not as cautious....with cat intros...(which is strange, since in everything else I tend to be slower, researching and cautious.) I guess I just figure that our cats know more than we do." - It is more art than science. I guess the biggest mistake I see is people rushing the process. And once negative feelings get ingrained it takes more effort to unwind. So that is why I tend to be more cautious. I am really all about trying to minimize negatives. And going slower tends to help that in my experience.

"Yes, I too, was wondering about that age old saying, "having too many cooks spoils the broth", but then I really enjoy it when others post, with their own cat experiences, and advice." - Well I trust your opinions so I struggle with being involved here. It is like if you go to too many doctors. Each mean their best but have different views. They all with get you healthy but may take different routes.I too enjoy reading other people's advice and opinions. I think it is very helpful. To me. Whether it can cause confusion for the person with the cats that is my concern.


"I find this the ultimate beauty of this Site.Everyone has their own cat experiences, and by hearing from different members, and different methods, advice, experience,...then we all learn from each other. Though, yes, this can sometimes lead to confusion, so I totally get the 'too many cooks' scenario. " - Totally agree. I tend not to have a lot of time so can't really read posts. I try to pick a poster without help etc then take it. But there are a lot of talented people on here so if someone is getting help I just move to another poster. If I had more time I would read more threads but I just have way too many situations going on with our animals, TNR, feral colonies, helping on intros, etc. This site is saving cat lives. I LOVE that!!

"I could also tell that A acari A acari is really committed to making these cat intros work. I somehow find it hard to believe that they are first time cat guardians. Since they have done everything by the book, researched beforehand, and taken the necessary steps to make this intro as smooth-going as possible." - This is what gives me a lot of confidence success will be found here. Effort by the cat parents is the biggest reason I see for failure. A lot of time people (even multiple cat owners) just don't have the knowledge of the intro process. I can't tell you how many people I help say " I have had cats all my life and never had this issue before". People tend not to realize how territorial cats really are and how afraid cats are of "intruders" that could either hurt them or take away their food etc. My whole goal is to educate so that they can not only adopt and intro more cats in the future but maybe even help someone else going through what they went through.

Effort and knowledge are not issues in this situation.

 

[cat nap]

This is asking a lot, I know, but I was wondering if you could provide any video examples of cats charging? I will keep looking but for now I'm just finding "funny" videos of cats "charging" (as in batteries). It would be good for me to know the difference between charging and running.

Cats 'charging' (as in batteries)?? What type of sites are you visiting? lol.
No, this is not asking a lot at all. I'll see if I can find any.

I can't believe that I cannot find video examples of cats charging versus running.
I thought this would be so simple.
(I'll keep looking, and try to use synonyms for the words 'cats charging')

I'm also only seeing cats charging (as in batteries)....with the 'built in night-light eyes'....'glowing eyes' photos'.
(my cats when young loved those electrical charging wires, so I had to buy 'split-loom, and pvc tubing', from the hardware store to cover my electrical cords.)

The definition from oxford online dictionary: "rush forward in attack". or "rush aggressively toward (someone or something) in attack."

So if you see K rush at the gate, and sort of still do her 'striking the paw', violently at the gate, ...then I'd consider that 'charging'.
If K is just running very, very swiftly to the gate, and then runs away as quickly, or just stays there, then I'd call that running.
I suppose it is all in the 'intent' of the run...or the final action, at the end.
(my explanation is probably making it worse....so I will keep looking for videos.)

A acari Were you able to do any 'site swapping'?

 

[acari]

Yes, T going back upstairs on her own, and also wanting to stay on the stairs, both indicate that she is way more comfortable with her home.
Her not fully falling asleep near you, is because she's still a kitten, everything is new, and she probably wants to both keep an eye on you, see if you'll be playing, and learning about how her humans are.
I think our cats study us, while we are not watching, too. You'll notice, that, sometimes, ...when you look at them, they're looking at you.

Yes, now that she has done it again I think she is more comfortable being out and making the decision to leave/sleep, and not just that she was so tired she had to go conk out.
K watches us a lot, actually, but whenever I turn my head to look at her she immediately looks the opposite direction, as if I hadn't just caught her staring at me!

The reason for watching other cat playing videos, is to be prepared for the later steps, when your cats actually meet, that you do not think it is too rough.

That's a good idea, I'll look for those videos. I had planned to watch those later but why not now, to better prepare?

Posting photos of your cats is the coolest way to do that.

Haha...I have very, very, very many pictures of K. T is a little harder to catch because she's always in motion!

the only risk is that T tries to get at them and then K wonders if this "invader" is even trying to get my treats. Of course, if T just is sitting there and K is eating the treats and not paying attention to T then it is a positive. Personally, I would tend to be there doing that. K does eat treats with you and T by the gate, correct?

C calicosrspecial Yes, I thought about this too - I haven't tried it yet. But I would put the treats far enough away that T wouldn't try to get them, if it's past a certain distance she understands they're not for her.
K does eat treats if we're there, yes. Which, now that I'm thinking about it, wasn't the case when we first brought T home - we put lots of treats upstairs by the door and even though K was there, she completely ignored them.
It's interesting how your comments make me remember how different things were at first, it's a good reminder that we've actually come quite a ways!

I do think you may be overthinking this a bit which again is very normal and common. Intros are always back and forth, two steps forward and 1, 2 or even 3 steps back at times.

I am also an overthinker in non-cat-related items.

It is much easier to see them and interpret it rather than try to interpret via words.

Oh, I understand completely!! I will try to get videos soon.

I can't believe that I cannot find video examples of cats charging versus running.
I thought this would be so simple.

I'm also only seeing cats charging (as in batteries)....with the 'built in night-light eyes'....'glowing eyes' photos'.

cat nap Ha! I'm not the only one...it is difficult, isn't it? But no worries if you can't find any, and I'll keep looking.

So if you see K rush at the gate, and sort of still do her 'striking the paw', violently at the gate, ...then I'd consider that 'charging'.
If K is just running very, very swiftly to the gate, and then runs away as quickly, or just stays there, then I'd call that running.
I suppose it is all in the 'intent' of the run...or the final action, at the end.

Based on this description I would call it "charging" then, though maybe both, if that's possible? She never runs away as fast though.

A acari Were you able to do any 'site swapping'?

Not any additional swapping since Monday, no - we're so busy preparing for a weekend trip (to see family for the holidays).

My younger brother is house-sitting/cat-sitting for us so I'm not sure what things will be like when we return. T is slow to warm up to strangers but she's not acting too fearful so I'm optimistic that they won't be set back while we're away.

For a quick update, yesterday K didn't charge/rush/run at the gate even once. There was one potential time but I successfully herded her away by walking between her and the gate.
So far tonight she hasn't yet either, which I think is great! But since my brother is here that might have something to do with it.

I'll return late on Monday and resume introduction activities on Tuesday.
My brother has strict instructions to provide them both with lots of treats if they are behaving nicely and politely!

 

[cat nap]

K watches us a lot, actually, but whenever I turn my head to look at her she immediately looks the opposite direction, as if I hadn't just caught her staring at me!

Yeah, that's what some cats do. lol.
It's like they have to immediately look away and pretend they weren't looking at you. Pretty much looking at everything else around, but you.
I think their peripheral vision must be great, though. Not sure about the science behind it.

(my female cat is a little different though....she will meow, and stare at me....so that is quite interesting, too. It's how she communicates, and makes sure that she gets my attention. I just talk to her, and tell her that I'll get whatever she wants in a minute.)

Ha! I'm not the only one...it is difficult, isn't it? But no worries if you can't find any, and I'll keep looking.

Yeah, I thought it would be as easy as pie. But I'll keep looking too. It's fun.

Based on this description I would call it "charging" then, though maybe both, if that's possible? She never runs away as fast though.

Ugh. I was hoping that it was not charging. I was hoping that K only wants to play, and not 'storm the gate'.

Not any additional swapping since Monday, no - we're so busy preparing for a weekend trip (to see family for the holidays).

My younger brother is house-sitting/cat-sitting for us so I'm not sure what things will be like when we return. T is slow to warm up to strangers but she's not acting too fearful so I'm optimistic that they won't be set back while we're away.

If your brother has your 'cat whisperer gene', ...then all will be well.

For a quick update, yesterday K didn't charge/rush/run at the gate even once. There was one potential time but I successfully herded her away by walking between her and the gate.
So far tonight she hasn't yet either, which I think is great! But since my brother is here that might have something to do with it.

I'll return late on Monday and resume introduction activities on Tuesday.
My brother has strict instructions to provide them both with lots of treats if they are behaving nicely and politely!

Excellent. See, your brother has a positive effect on the cats already.
Have a great trip.
When you get back home, your brother will have both cats calm and relaxed, and you'll wonder why you didn't ask him to come by sooner.

 

[calicosrspecial]

"K watches us a lot, actually, but whenever I turn my head to look at her she immediately looks the opposite direction, as if I hadn't just caught her staring at me! " - This is actually very common. Some cats do not like being looked at. Or having someone stand over them. There are ferals I have to feed without looking at them. Looking at a cat can cause an escalation as it could be mins-interpreted as a "hunting" stare. What I do is give eye kisses. So slowly close your eyes then hold them closed and then slowly open. This is showing a cat you trust them because no cat would ever close their eyes to a potential threat.

I can't remember. Was K a feral or where did you get her and at what age?

"I haven't tried it yet. But I would put the treats far enough away that T wouldn't try to get them, if it's past a certain distance she understands they're not for her." - yes, that would be good. As long as it makes a positive association and T doesn't cause any anxiety for K. So putting them further away so T does not go towards them would be best.

"K does eat treats if we're there, yes. Which, now that I'm thinking about it, wasn't the case when we first brought T home" - this is great. So you must be a positive. And anytime K is eating treats and not focused on T and nothing negative happens it is a step in building trust and confidence.

"I am also an overthinker in non-cat-related items" - I usually am as well. The key is to not let it get in the way. Being prepared etc is great. For example, we may think about what stores to visit in the mall but when we are there we don't think "we have to move the right leg and place the foot like so then the left like so etc. We just do it knowing we are prepared. I am really glad that you are doing your homework and putting in the effort needed. Just realize that you are doing great so don't worry.

Charging and running is really nuanced. Sometimes we just have to see it. Video will be great and then we can interpret it for you. Hopefully it will be difficult to get (because it doesn't happen).

"yesterday K didn't charge/rush/run at the gate even once. There was one potential time but I successfully herded her away by walking between her and the gate. So far tonight she hasn't yet either, which I think is great! But since my brother is here that might have something to do with it. "- Wow, great!! I I read each paragraph then respond so it is kinda funny I was joking about this. Maybe it will be true???? GREAT job deflecting her from a chase. Make it as positive as possible. It is possible since your brother is there it is limiting the charges/running but anything to avoid a negative is a positive.

"I was hoping that it was not charging. I was hoping that K only wants to play, and not 'storm the gate'." - Charging happens all the time in intros and is honestly not a big deal. Just means we have some work to do which is usually what happens in intros. We'll get through it. I am not worried. Very common to have charging.

Have a great and safe trip and talk to you when you are back.

 

[acari]

What I do is give eye kisses. So slowly close your eyes then hold them closed and then slowly open. This is showing a cat you trust them because no cat would ever close their eyes to a potential threat.

I can't remember. Was K a feral or where did you get her and at what age?

C calicosrspecial Yes, I do this often with K (eye kisses) and depending on her mood/if she is sleepy she will do a slow one back, or she does a quick eye squeeze if she's less affectionate. I've never seen T slow blink though, she stares an awful lot for a cat I feel. She likes making prolonged eye contact with us. Is that something mothers usually teach their kittens? Or is this another area where cats naturally differ?
Sometimes I wonder if K thinks T is being rude/aggressive with her staring but T doesn't know any better?

K was not a feral but we don't have very much information about her. The shelter we adopted her from checked that she was spayed and told us that she was originally picked up a few hours away as a stray, and she was theoretically 1 year old when we got her. So she should be around 1 year and 4 months now.

Charging and running is really nuanced. Sometimes we just have to see it. Video will be great and then we can interpret it for you. Hopefully it will be difficult to get (because it doesn't happen).

To get it on video I sort of have to "make" it happen (or, rather, purposefully allow it), and of course that's not really ideal. Otherwise it happens way too fast for me to catch, or I'm in the way...but I'll see if I can get one tonight or tomorrow.

Well, I returned home today and my brother unfortunately reported that K was being insistent on pawing at the gate this morning. I don't have very much information from him so that's all I know - that she was pawing, kept returning to the gate, and was hissing. T apparently ran up a few steps each time but also came back down every time.
K might have been feeling badly because we were gone so that might have contributed to her general anxiety, in the photos my brother sent she looked a bit sad (wishful thinking?).

K seemed to be hyper focused on T even from across the room, and when I moved my hand to block her line of sight (to distract her) she made motions as if she was going to bite my hand (I understand she was just letting me know she didn't like that I was blocking her), which is a first.

I sat a bit at the gate today with my legs between the gate and K (so unless K was VERY determined to ignore or injure me she couldn't get to T, but could still see T) and awarded many treats for a whole lot of nothing, and that seemed to be alright. K isn't relaxed (turkeying) but her tail is curled in against her body and she stares resolutely at the wall away from T when there aren't any treats to be eaten, so I consider it "neutral".

She did try to run (more like a quick jog really) at the gate twice already this evening but I got between them and no pawing happened, K just continued her run into the living room as if that were her intention to begin with.

So we resume the process! Happy holidays to you two cat nap and C calicosrspecial and anyone else who may be reading!

 

[cat nap]

Well, I returned home today and my brother unfortunately reported that K was being insistent on pawing at the gate this morning. I don't have very much information from him so that's all I know - that she was pawing, kept returning to the gate, and was hissing. T apparently ran up a few steps each time but also came back down every time.
K might have been feeling badly because we were gone so that might have contributed to her general anxiety, in the photos my brother sent she looked a bit sad (wishful thinking?).

Well, pawing at the gate, and hissing...doesn't sound as bad as violently spitting, hissing, striking in fear, or wanting to tear down the gate.
Also, the fact that "T apparently ran up a few steps each time but also came back down every time."....is a real good indicator that ...it's not as problematic as it seems.

And yes, K might have missed you guys, and therefore felt more anxious...if it was the first time that your brother has been there.
K has to deal with a new cat, T, in her territory, and also a new human. Adjustments are hard for some cats.

K seemed to be hyper focused on T even from across the room, and when I moved my hand to block her line of sight (to distract her) she made motions as if she was going to bite my hand (I understand she was just letting me know she didn't like that I was blocking her), which is a first.

Huh, interesting about making motions of wanting to bite your hand, that was distracting/blocking her line of sight.

Some Cats do get 're-directed aggression' when they feel amped up, and need to release that adrenaline onto the nearest thing, but in this case it sounds more like K was just annoyed that your hand was blocking her vision.
Cats also get scared if a hand approaches them quickly, or from the top, sometimes even side,...if they are not expecting it.
(I know that my cats tend to move their heads, slightly, if they get startled by my hand above them, or if I move too quick to pet them.)

Perhaps just use a pillow, cat blanket, blanket, towel, or something that if K were to try to bite...it would not be your hand.
I sometimes just clap softly, snap my fingers, or use my voice....to distract, or call my animals,...if they are rough-housing.

I sat a bit at the gate today with my legs between the gate and K (so unless K was VERY determined to ignore or injure me she couldn't get to T, but could still see T) and awarded many treats for a whole lot of nothing, and that seemed to be alright. K isn't relaxed (turkeying) but her tail is curled in against her body and she stares resolutely at the wall away from T when there aren't any treats to be eaten, so I consider it "neutral".

Does K ever go by the gate, like she did in that previous photo, and just lay there? without any of her humans around?
That to me, would say that she is getting more, and more, relaxed being around T.

She did try to run (more like a quick jog really) at the gate twice already this evening but I got between them and no pawing happened, K just continued her run into the living room as if that were her intention to begin with.

Oh, I forgot....you're doing that 'cautious approach', with distracting.

I just hope it does not cause too much frustration for K, in that she needs to release her feelings towards T,...so I'm not sure what to say here.
Give it a few days, observe K, play with them both, on each side, so that the other one sees.

Once you get into the 'site swapping'....then you'll be able to see more of each cats' behaviours, and how they lessen, by smelling each other's environment.

So we resume the process! Happy holidays to you two cat nap and C calicosrspecial and anyone else who may be reading!

Happy Holidays to you all, as well.
May these holidays bring peace to all our cats, animals, humans,..wherever they are.

 

[calicosrspecial]

"I do this often with K (eye kisses) and depending on her mood/if she is sleepy she will do a slow one back, or she does a quick eye squeeze if she's less affectionate." - Great. A quick eye kiss back is not a bad thing. It is very positive she gives kisses.

"I've never seen T slow blink though, she stares an awful lot for a cat I feel. She likes making prolonged eye contact with us. Is that something mothers usually teach their kittens? Or is this another area where cats naturally differ?" - Some cats do stare. It could just be him. All indications tell me that it is nothing. He seems to be doing well, relaxed, and seems to love his life. It could be an indication he wants affection. Ir is just an observant cat. I don't know if mama cats teach this. I think it is just in a cat's personality. I have starers and non-starers. It is more about the body language that would tell us the intent.

"K was not a feral but we don't have very much information about her. The shelter we adopted her from checked that she was spayed and told us that she was originally picked up a few hours away as a stray, and she was theoretically 1 year old when we got her. So she should be around 1 year and 4 months now." - Ok.

"To get it on video I sort of have to "make" it happen (or, rather, purposefully allow it), and of course that's not really ideal. Otherwise it happens way too fast for me to catch, or I'm in the way...but I'll see if I can get one tonight or tomorrow." - Ok, I agree it is not ideal to make it happen. If you just sit there and it does happen that would be ok though. I would like to see it just to see the body language. BUt don't encourage it to happen.

"Well, I returned home today and my brother unfortunately reported that K was being insistent on pawing at the gate this morning. I don't have very much information from him so that's all I know - that she was pawing, kept returning to the gate, and was hissing. T apparently ran up a few steps each time but also came back down every time. K might have been feeling badly because we were gone so that might have contributed to her general anxiety, in the photos my brother sent she looked a bit sad (wishful thinking?)." - Yes, change will cause anxiety and that type of behavior. It will be better when you can be back. I pretty much guarantee she misses you.

"K seemed to be hyper focused on T even from across the room, and when I moved my hand to block her line of sight (to distract her) she made motions as if she was going to bite my hand (I understand she was just letting me know she didn't like that I was blocking her), which is a first." - She probably had leftover anxiety and wanted to let you know not to do that. The good news is she chose not to attack and bite you so that was a conscious choice and a good sign. She doesn't want to hurt you. Try to distract her with a toy or a treat or as catnap says a pillow, etc. Just don't make it feel threatening to her.

"I sat a bit at the gate today with my legs between the gate and K (so unless K was VERY determined to ignore or injure me she couldn't get to T, but could still see T) and awarded many treats for a whole lot of nothing, and that seemed to be alright. K isn't relaxed (turkeying) but her tail is curled in against her body and she stares resolutely at the wall away from T when there aren't any treats to be eaten, so I consider it "neutral". " - This is great. Anything that is not negative is a positive. As long as K is not being attacked or feeling threatened (physically or access to food, water, litter box, territory, etc) then it builds that trust. It lets K know that T is not a existential threat.

"She did try to run (more like a quick jog really) at the gate twice already this evening but I got between them and no pawing happened, K just continued her run into the living room as if that were her intention to begin with." - Great job distracting. K is just trying to let T know not to try anything. It just takes time to build that trust. You will get there. Keep making positive associations and keep trying to make every encounter as positive as possible.

Catnap is spot on with her responses.

Happy holidays to you and Catnap and everyone else. The holidays can cause some cat issues because of how busy we are, sometimes stressed, a lot of people etc. But just try to be calm and confident around the cats and give some extra good stuff (play and food) and love and they will rebound quickly.

 

[acari]

I sometimes just clap softly, snap my fingers, or use my voice....to distract, or call my animals,...if they are rough-housing

Honestly both K and T ignore us if we are trying to reprimand gently/softly. They will stop what they are doing for one millisecond, or look at us, to acknowledge that they heard us, but won't stop what they're doing until we clap loudly or come towards them.
We are ineffective distractions unless we are a foot away

Does K ever go by the gate, like she did in that previous photo, and just lay there? without any of her humans around?

No, she hasn't done it again since, and before that it only happened once (and maybe only for a minute or two).
She doesn't usually lie down on the floor without anything else, she prefers to be on top of something (scratching pad, bed, in a box, on top of paper)...but there is a scratching pad near the hallway that she doesn't use anymore...so I'm not sure if putting a "bed" for her in the hallway would help.
Mostly, she avoids the gate area, including the stairs. She went upstairs briefly in the evening yesterday on her own, but came right back down.

I just hope it does not cause too much frustration for K, in that she needs to release her feelings towards T,...so I'm not sure what to say here.
Give it a few days, observe K, play with them both, on each side, so that the other one sees.

What do you mean by "release her feelings towards T"?

T plays on her side of the gate without issues and loves scampering up and down the stairs, and doesn't care if K is watching.
K sometimes gets interested (or worried, I can't tell) in all the noise coming from T when she's running around during playtime, and will focus on/look up at the sounds if T isn't in eyesight.
However, it's gotten even more difficult to play with K. She was already hard to engage before and now if T is visible or making noise, K will stop playing. And it was hard to get her to move around before too (refuses to chase toys that are out of arm's reach) - now it's impossible to get her to come over to play near the gate.
She'll ask to play, then just halfheartedly watch the toy without moving before ignoring it completely. When we leave, she comes to find us to ask to play again, but then ignores the toy again. This will repeat all night.
I'm really at a loss for what to do about this part, because I know she has energy to use but isn't expending it, and that definitely changes how she acts around T...
I am trying lots of different toys for K but she is really hard to please. Even catnip toys she will only kick at for fifteen seconds before getting bored.
And to add another problem to the mix, in the past few days T has been getting jealous if we try to play with K, even if we'd already played with T previously for a long while. It's not always possible for us to play with both at the same time as it requires two people to be free. She'll cry at the gate, which makes K not want to play...

Once you get into the 'site swapping'....then you'll be able to see more of each cats' behaviours, and how they lessen, by smelling each other's environment.

We were finally able to let T out into K's space downstairs yesterday for at least half an hour.
T is much more comfortable wandering around, smelling everything - the first time, she was very hesitant.
K behaved mostly well, turkeying at the gate watching (she was still a bit sleepy). But near the end when I wasn't paying attention, T came too close I guess, and K pawed at the gate. T was already leaving so nothing really came of that interaction but I wish I'd been faster at grabbing the treats to distract...
The thing about swapping K into T's space is that T is still too jumpy for us to feel comfortable blocking her access to her safe room, which is where K would need to go. Otherwise, if T isn't out/the gate isn't up, K has full access to the stairs and the upstairs area where T has been roaming.
She just chooses to avoid the area, so I'm not sure what to do about that.

I would like to see it just to see the body language.

C calicosrspecial I still haven't been able to get any video, it just happens so fast when I'm not there. And when I am there, it usually doesn't happen now because I am blocking the way with a limb or two.
But I have a video from one of the very first times the gate was up (not even in the same location in the house) and honestly, K's reactions aren't very different from then. In fact, K's unchanging reactions are what prompted me to make this thread to begin with! It's from 11/21, so more than a month ago.

Here is a GIF of her running toward the gate (because the distance is short, it's not a great example of "charging" but imagine that over a distance of, say, ten feet):

I did a GIF because there's no sound to accompany here, but I uploaded a video too of the next thing she did, below.

I hope this uploading worked.
So we accidentally dropped a treat for K too close to the edge of the gate, which made T go for it, and it's pretty clear that K's reaction here was to tell T to back off.
These days we are much better, and more careful, about treat placement.
She does this same type of pawing action even without treats involved now - sometimes she'll just run up to the gate to do this even if T isn't doing anything except lie there.
The low weird sound K makes at the very end before the video cuts off is something that she doesn't do anymore - this kind of noise stopped very shortly after this video was taken. Now she just meows at us and hisses occasionally at T. But I included it anyway just in case.


==========

We've decided to stop using the Feliway diffuser for now because our gut feeling is that it's making things worse, though we have no real proof of that.
K, independently, came over to an area near the gate (but not at the gate) today to turkey and watch T. Then she came closer when we started doling out treats.
K hissed once at T but I noticed that T was staring at her, so maybe K felt it was aggressive? T really does just stare down anything and everything though.

T has started to cry nonstop if she can't see us or sometimes even if we're just too far away for her taste. It's difficult because everything we do is downstairs (computers, living room, TV, cooking, dining), none of it is in T's "territory". She's getting more desperate for attention/company and I'm not sure how much longer she'll be happy being cooped up behind the gate...

 

[cat nap]

cat nap said:

I sometimes just clap softly, snap my fingers, or use my voice....to distract, or call my animals,...if they are rough-housing

Honestly both K and T ignore us if we are trying to reprimand gently/softly. They will stop what they are doing for one millisecond, or look at us, to acknowledge that they heard us, but won't stop what they're doing until we clap loudly or come towards them.
We are ineffective distractions unless we are a foot away

No, A acari ...you are both very effective distractions for your cats.
Even if your cats 'stop for that 'millisecond', 'to look at you', or' acknowledge that they heard you'...then that is what you want to happen. That means you were successful.

What you wrote, above, is exactly what I would do/did to stop my cats during an aggressive playfight. I do clap loudly, and usually say, "hey, Hey, Hey"....with each "hey" getting progressively louder in tone. And if I happen to be near the action, then I will also come toward them, to see what is going on, and cause them to break up their tussle, if it seems too rough. Usually, though, it is way too fast, and by the time I get there, my cats are heading into different directions, or acting like the other one started it.

I couldn't believe the rubbish that I wrote, above, and wondered if I had started celebrating christmas a bit too early, but I don't drink, so had no excuse for why I wrote that.
I think it was in context, to the whole...'blocking the line of sight'...from one cat to another, when they want to play rough.

Perhaps just use a pillow, cat blanket, blanket, towel, or something that if K were to try to bite...it would not be your hand.
I sometimes just clap softly, snap my fingers, or use my voice....to distract, or call my animals,...if they are rough-housing.

Though, I apologize for confusing you, since the 'clapping softly, snapping fingers, or voice' only works if my one cat happens to be near me, and focusing visually on wanting to run at the other one. It would in no way stop, or distract my cat from a pursuit already in progress. And still, sometimes distracting a 'line of sight'....will not actually prevent a run at the other cat, but does momentarily seem to be effective.

No, she hasn't done it again since, and before that it only happened once (and maybe only for a minute or two).
She doesn't usually lie down on the floor without anything else, she prefers to be on top of something (scratching pad, bed, in a box, on top of paper)...but there is a scratching pad near the hallway that she doesn't use anymore...so I'm not sure if putting a "bed" for her in the hallway would help.
Mostly, she avoids the gate area, including the stairs. She went upstairs briefly in the evening yesterday on her own, but came right back down.

I was so hoping that K would continue with laying near the gate, and chilling out.
Yes, perhaps putting a 'bed', in the hallway would help. It's worth a try.

What do you mean by "release her feelings towards T"?

What I mean by this, is that K has to naturally express her feelings, and by doing this through her actions,...only then will you be able to observe, gauge, and move on to further steps.
If K is prevented from naturally expressing or displaying what her true feelings are, then I don't think a reliable method of observation is achieved.

For instance, the gate is there to 'protect' both cats from hurting each other, and also for both cats to get comfortable around one another, through sight, smell, even touch.
If the cats are naturally prevented from approaching the gate, or only doing so on certain occasions, (such as when humans are present), then it defeats the purpose of the gate method.

The protection is already set up by the barrier of the gate.
And it's true, that treats are given after all positive interactions, so that positive associations of the other cat being in the territory are made...but if those interactions are only done, whenever humans are involved, then that cannot be a true indication of the feelings of either cat.
I hope that I'm making some sense, in explaining the above, in having a cat release or display her feelings.

T plays on her side of the gate without issues and loves scampering up and down the stairs, and doesn't care if K is watching.
K sometimes gets interested (or worried, I can't tell) in all the noise coming from T when she's running around during playtime, and will focus on/look up at the sounds if T isn't in eyesight.
However, it's gotten even more difficult to play with K. She was already hard to engage before and now if T is visible or making noise, K will stop playing. And it was hard to get her to move around before too (refuses to chase toys that are out of arm's reach) - now it's impossible to get her to come over to play near the gate.
She'll ask to play, then just halfheartedly watch the toy without moving before ignoring it completely. When we leave, she comes to find us to ask to play again, but then ignores the toy again. This will repeat all night.
I'm really at a loss for what to do about this part, because I know she has energy to use but isn't expending it, and that definitely changes how she acts around T...
I am trying lots of different toys for K but she is really hard to please. Even catnip toys she will only kick at for fifteen seconds before getting bored.
And to add another problem to the mix, in the past few days T has been getting jealous if we try to play with K, even if we'd already played with T previously for a long while. It's not always possible for us to play with both at the same time as it requires two people to be free. She'll cry at the gate, which makes K not want to play...

Does it seem to you that both cats are more interested in each other, than they are in their toys?
Does K stop playing with you, only when she hears T, or sees T?
And when K hears T cry at the gate, and stops playing....what does K do then? go away? hiss? run at gate?