Struggling With Play Time

[calicosrspecial]

Ash sound a lot more confident. That is so important. Rubbing on her? I mean that is GREAT. He wants to own everyone!!

We never know, broken toy, etc. Whatever works is great. At least they are playing. Length would be nice but any play is good. Builds confidence.

Frost is funny. What a way to hunt!!

You really have done a great job with them!!

 

[Animal Freak]

Yeah. He used to rub on everyone all the time during the preparation of meals, but he became so timid around her. Only during that time though. I will say something happened last night, but I'm not entirely sure what. I turn to see Ember on her back legs, diving down onto Ash. He jerked away and shook himself and I was going to separate them, but it wasn't like what had been going on where she'd slap and it wasn't a full on fight either. That's much louder and Ash always runs. They both ended up standing on they're hind legs, taking swats at each other. Both had their tails held up though and I didn't do anything because it seemed almost playful and, even if it wasn't, I liked seeing Ash stand up for himself.

I have been wondering though, if the issues we've had haven't been caused by a playful energy going wrong. It is not uncommon for Ember and Frost to play together while I make they're dinner so I'm wondering if it isn't that same energy in Ember that's causing her to lash out at Ash perhaps because of a tension between them due to past incidents. I don't know if there's any merit to that theory, but I do believe it started after a phase of them fighting and she does seem playful with Frost in this time.

However, something special happened just a little earlier. Frost had come over and laid next me and we were fighting over him wanting to knead my stomach (very uncomfortable) when Ash came over as well. He sort of acted like he wanted to walk over me which I won't say never happens, but doesn't happen often. He didn't though and I assumed he wanted to get to Frost, but Frost was also in the way. Then Ash actually laid partly on me! He laid about half way across my stomach and Frost took the other half. Then they laid there and grinned each other (mostly Ash grooming Frost) while I petted them. It was precious. I was absolutely thrilled! I think this is the first time Ash had every willingly laid on me!

Frost ended up leaving, but Ash rolled over and tucked himself under my stomach, right up against my side and stuck around for a while. I might have jumped up and down in joy if i was trying to avoid disturbing him and I'm not one to do such a thing.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Cats do get into those batting matches. They last 10-15 seconds or so and then they move on. As long as they acted normal after then it was one of those moments. It is good that Ash didn't run and stood up to her. Two of my male ferals actually did that last night (they do it about once a week or so before feeding). Then they are rubbing on each other and eating together with their tails wrapped around each other. Go figure.

SO as long as they acted normal after it I am not worried.

It very well could be a playful energy that gets misinterpreted. Some cats play rougher than others.

WOW!!! COOL!! You have had a major breakthrough with Ash. AWESOME!! That is a love and a trust and a bond. That is really special!! You are definitely doing the right things!! I know the feeling when it is something so special. Isn't it wonderful??? WELL DONE!!

 

[Animal Freak]

I didn't think I had to worry about it. There was no hissing, no growling, no issues before or after. The first time she went after him, he moved away and then went right back up to her which was when they had they're boxing matching. The only time their tails lowered was when they stood up on their hind legs which is to be expected.

It was a wonderful experience. I couldn't even be upset that they laid in front of my tablet. It's not often Ash lays so close, let alone actually on me.

My only complaint is that last night was the second night Ember didnt demand attention and this morning the second morning. She still demands attention throughout the day, but it's odd not having her under my feet at night. It's kind of funny how someone makes you do something routinely and you just resign yourself to doing it only to realize how much you actually enjoyed it when they stop.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Yes, exactly. The key is really how they act after. If they go back to normal there isn't anything to worry about.

Totally wonderful experience!! I love it!! You have done something amazing with Ash, you opened his heart. WONDERFUL!!

It really is. It is tough to know why they do that (I have had it happen to me before too). I always thought they felt more secure so didn't need to reassurance etc. But we never really know. I know exactly what you mean, even though it is a pain sometimes (especially when you want to go to sleep) when they don't want love it is kind of an adjustment. But as long as she acts normal it is all good.

 

[Animal Freak]

Ash bit me today... Not exactly an uncommon occurrence, but normally I at least do something to provoke it. Pet his side or his stomach or something. Today I was scratching his cheek and he had his front leg over my arm. Then he randomly grabbed my arm, bit down, and kicked me. It was probably one of his hardest bites though he still didn't break skin. The kicking seemed overall half-hearted. It's something something that's all that concerning, but it was a bit odd. He went back to rubbing on me and purring immediately after. I told him that biting was rude. I don't think he cares.

Ember seems fine and she said good morning to me this morning. I'm hoping that it means she's more secure. I mean, if I'm losing that part of my routine then I'd like it to be a good thing. She's taken to the new cat stand though. Probably because she doesn't have to share with Ash. He gets up there and they take turns, but I think he prefers the old one and he's still hanging out in the bathroom a lot. Frost seems to like my shoes all of a sudden.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I didn't expect that. Was he overstimulated? Usually it happens when they are overstimulated. It sounds like a love bite (depending on exactly how he did it) since he didn't break the skin (so his goal wasn't to hurt) and he went back to rubbing and purring. My feral black cat is a biter (love bites) and he will give a quick nip of me or the other ferals (never breaking the skin). But I see it and experience so I know exactly what it is.

Ash wasn't aggressive when he did it, right? How did it differ from previous bites?

Great that Ember is doing well. My sense is she is more comfortable and confident. GREAT that she likes the cat tree. Having multiple places for them can help a lot (to give them some space and territory to own).

Frost likes your shoes? Where you with other cats/animals?

 

[Animal Freak]

I didn't expect it either. Lol. I wasn't even paying attention. Just lost in my own world and then there were teeth on my wrist. He didn't seem overstimulated. He doesn't usually have a problem with his face being petted. The kicking is usually a more playful thing, but he didn't seem playful this time. However, I was petting him kind of weird. I had my arm bent somewhat uncomfortably and he put his head on top of my hand so I was petting him with the back of my fingers. He might not have liked it so much. He never bites with the intent to harm though. Even when I have to hold him down, he's very gentle. I'm not especially worried about it though. Like I said, it's not uncommon to get a bite from him. He gets a bit nippy when you stroke his sides too much.

There was no aggression. I just looked at him and he looked at me kind of like he was daring me to do something about it. It seemed like he bit harder than usual, but kicked more gently. Normally the tips of his back claws to more damage than his teeth, but I think he actually came close to breaking skin this time. The only other odd thing is that he normally only kicks when I mess with his belly. The face is safe, the sides may get you a bite, and the stomach gets you bitten as well as kicked.

Yeah, I think the third addition was a good decision. They each seem to have their own preference of cat tree though they do share.

I go to the shelter twice a month, but that's nothing new. He's begun laying on them a lot in the past few weeks. I guess I used to wear different shoes before, but I haven't kept on top of it lately. I'm almost positive I've worn these shoes there before though.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Hmmm, it could have just been an unfortunate encounter. Something spooked him and boom. Like you said, it was a weird petting.

Keep an eye on him and see if you see any change in how he interacts. I wouldn't be too worried, it was probably a one time thing.

Yes, cat trees help as it gives them some space and choice. To be alone or hang out together. Very good addition.

Usually a cat will be attracted to something different because of a scent. Other animals can do it. But why now? Maybe an intact male? There is usually a reason but sometimes it is hard to figure out. Or maybe he likes the material or the temperature etc.

 

[Animal Freak]

Yeah, it doesn't bother me. I'm not one to get mad about biting and whatnot as long as it doesn't break skin. They don't speak our language so we have to learn to communicate with each other. If it takes a small bite to get the message across then that's fine. It's probably my fault for not getting the message before it came to that anyway. If it gets a little out of hand I might tell them no and maybe give them a tap on the nose to let them know its going to far, but nothing more. I will keep an eye on him though. I say this, but I have no clue where he is at the moment so it might be easier said than done.


Hmm... Do kittens count? The room I spend the most time in has mostly kittens. Sometimes they have an adult, but usually female. I think the oldest this past time was a nine month old female. The rest were four months and younger. The only adult male I can think of that I interacted with was put up in a kennel at the time so I only petted him. I'm not sure if he's intact or not. They do have another room with only one cat out and he is an adult male. I don't pet him much, but I could have picked up his scent. I don't know if he's been neutered, but it sure seems like he would be. They're normally pretty good at keeping up on neutering if the cat wasn't brought in already neutered. I can't remember when he was brought in to know if it lines up. I feel like he might have been there before the behavior came up with Frost.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I know you can handle it well. I don't get a sense Ash is a bad cat so I am guessing it was just a one off thing. If he wanted to hurt you he could have but he didn't. He doesn't want to hurt a loved one.

Yes, kittens do count. Really any unknown animals can cause a cat to have behavior like that. Not uncommon at all.

How exactly is Frost interacting with your shoes?

 

[Animal Freak]

I tried cutting their nails in a different way today and he bit me a few times during that, but it went well overall. It didn't hurt, he didn't even leave a mark. I'm probably just going to live with his nipping. It doesn't bother me though my mom worries about me getting hurt. I have complete faith in him. He's given me no reason to fear him.

Well, I'm pretty sure I've been there with male kittens before, but they are there. I might have had one lingering on me a bit more this past time, but not on my shoes.

Frost just lays on them. He acts like they're the most comfortable pillow in the world. It wouldn't stand out to me if it wasn't for the suddenness of it and the frequency. He also used to follow me everytime I took the dog out, but now I can actually open the door without worrying about him daring out. Well, sometimes. It's kind of 50/50 now.

So last night Ember went at Ash again. I turned around to see her diving down onto the back of his neck. I almost intervened because she seemed to hold on a little too long and Ash tried to duck away, but I wanted to see how it ended. Again, there was no hissing, no growling. Ember acted like nothing happened afterwards. Ash seemed perhaps a little wary of her. Shortly after I saw Ash lowering his paw as if he had been prepared to slap her or actually did. Should I continue letting them work it out or should I start intervening? I'm kind of stuck because, on one hand, I want Ash to stick up for himself and not rely too much on me, but on the other hand, we've come so far in building up his confidence and I don't want to lose that.

 

[calicosrspecial]

At least he didn't make a mark. He didn't hurt you because he didn't want to. It is understandable when they get their nails cut (because they don't like it). So he is saying "hey, I don't like this".

My guess is he wants to be close to you or to get his scent on your shoes (because he smells other cats). Have you spent less "quality time" time with him recently (perceived or in reality)? It could be Frost just feels a little less confident and wants to be by you (via the shoes). Let's keep an eye on it but it is not too worrying right now.

Hmmmmmmm, usually males do that. Did you see what led up to it? What exactly did Ash do after? Walk away? Run? Hide? Slink?

That move is usually a play move. It sounds like play to me but I didn't see it. Was Ember looking for fun before that? Was she filled with energy before it?

I am not sure if you saw it but did it seem like play or something more serious to you?

It is tricky on whether to break it up or let them resolve it. You are exactly right, we don't want Ash to lose the confidence he has built up. The best thing to do is to avert it before it starts but that is not always possible. If it starts I think it is best to try distracting either with an "Ember" or "No". I say this because Ash seemed "wary" of her after this last incident. And we want him to maintain and build his confidence.

Then I like to try to do something (like treats) with them together so they associate each other with something positive. So it seems like the previous incident wasn't a big deal, nothing to worry about, nothing negative.

How did Ash act the rest of the night after that? The way they act after is always a big "tell" on how the cat took the incident.

 

[Animal Freak]

I would say the only odd thing about him biting was that I usually hold him and he's never bitten me. This time, I didn't hold him and got bitten a few times. I'm guessing that's just because he had more freedom and wasn't trying to wiggle out of my arms though.

Maybe? I will admit that Frost might not get as much attention as Ember, maybe even Ash, just because those two are so demanding. They let you know what you want, when they want it. Even when Frost does come around, he's normally content just laying next to me and we usually ended up fighting over where his paws are because he likes to knead my stomach or lay them on the touch pad of my laptop. It was something I kind of noticed recently and have started making sure that I do pet him when he comes over if only for a moment and they get attention after the daily training session.

Unfortunately not. I have my back to them while I miss the dry and wet cat foods so I never know what's going on. I just happened to turn around in time to see Ember on her hind legs, going down on Ash. He didn't have any huge reactions. He tried to jerk away from her when it happened, but failed. Afterwards he just sat there, hunched over, and leaned away from her.

I didn't see anything before it happened to know what she had been up to. It could have very well been play on her part. In fact, I think I've seen her do it to Frost before. The only thing that makes me think otherwise (excluding that she's never, to my knowledge, tried to initiate a game with Ash during this time before) is how Ash reacted to it.

I always play with them right before dinner and Ember seems to take over the majority of the play time so she shouldn't be full of energy, but she does often play with Frost while I make dinner. If I catch her I'll try to divert her attention, but I'm not sure I'll be able to unless I stand at the end of the counter which wouldn't offer me much room for three bowls.

After eating, everything seemed normal. He tends to get over things very quickly. It was only after being attacked repeatedly in the kitchen that he seemed at all wary of her. We've since gotten past that though and I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That makes sense that this time he had the freedom to bite. Not many cats like their nails cut sadly. Ash is no different. At least he didn't break the skin.

Let's watch Frost. As long as he seems normal (acting like he always does) I wouldn't worry too much. It is always hard to tell what drives some of the behavior. Usually it is scent driven but it could be that the shoes have a cooler feel.

So it was during feeding time. It is great Ash was normal after it. It could be Ember was excited about eating and still "amped up" with the play. If she plays will Frost before dinner then it makes sense she wanted to play and chose Ash. Actually if that is the case I think it is a nice positive.

Yes, it is hard to distract when distracted yourself!! I know the feeling well.

So I would probably just call her name next time and say something like "look what we have, dinner" or something. Just to make sure it doesn't escalate.

But as long as they were ok after it I am not too worried and I actually think it was more play. But it is tough to know not being there and knowing the animals etc.

My ferals will play (jump on each other as well when waiting to be fed). Then when the food comes all the focus is on the food. Now if they were staring at each other and not eating then I would say there is a problem. If that makes sense.

 

[Animal Freak]

I don't like it either so I can't blame them. Ember did great though. I've never seen a cat so tolerant of her feet being messed with. Even her back feet! She would give a little tug every now and then, but otherwise gave me no trouble at all. Frost did good with his front feet, but gave me some trouble with his back ones. Of course Ash had to be the most difficult one.

I will definitely watch Frost. When I get back that is. I'm at my dad's and I'm missing them. Fortunately this is my last (almost) week long visit.

I'll try to keep an eye on things. It very well may be play to her, but Ash might still have some hard feelings from the issues we were having. Ember listens very well though so I should be able to call her off him easily. The only reason I worry is that, while Ash gets over things quickly, I'm afraid it'll build up. It took a while before he started acting warily around her when she was actually attacking him.

I might try getting them closer while eating. Right now they're all at least a couple of feet apart with Ember and Ash being the furthest apart. They all seem okay with this and it might be time to try to get them together again. I don't like Ember being in the dining room anyway because I play with the dog then and I throw it in that direction. She's done surprisingly well though.

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are very fortunate to have two of the three being pretty good!! I wish I mine were so good!!

Sounds good. Frost could be missing you. Some cats take missing the human harder than others.

Yes, that is why we should call Ember off if possible. I am glad to hear she listens well. I get a sense you are building Ash's confidence so I am thinking he should be more resilient now. AND I think Ash might recognize it is more play than a threat but that is only a guess.

Just take it slow moving the food closer. Just a few inches every day or two. If they start acting funny then just back it up a bit.

I think you have done an excellent job with them. We are fine tuning the situation. I know many people that wish they had your situation.

 

[Animal Freak]

Lol. I think I break animals when it comes to bathing and nail trimming. All of my aunt's dogs would scream like she was cutting their feet off when she trimmed their nails and often tried to time it for when I was there because I would hold them and keep them calm. Since living with me, Stella gives me almost no trouble and doesn't usually make a sound. My cats are also pretty good about bathes. Ash scratched my mom once or twice, but never me.

I'm still getting used to the idea of the boys caring I'm there. They always seem so indifferent as to whose there to feed and pet them. It's kind of nice thinking he might miss me though I'd rather be there and none of us have to miss each other.

I'll be careful. I'll probably supervise the beginning of their dinner time to make sure everything is okay. I'm not sure how well I'll be able to stick to a few inches because the bowl would be in the middle of the floor, but I'll keep it as close as I can and I'll watch for any signs of discomfort. I will try to keep it to only a few inches and maybe I'll remember to move it out of the way. I can move her bowl back if she doesn't like it though so I think we'll be okay. I think they'd benefit from that time together.

I am starting to realize we have it pretty good. If only I could get Ember to not attack Ash after bathes. My allergies have been really bad lately and bathing them helps a lot, but I'd really hate to ruin all the progress we've made even temporarily.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Wow. That is impressive. You have the magic touch!! I wish mine would be like that (or that I could have the magic touch).

Cats can seem aloof but underneath they can care in a huge way. I was just talking with someone who was sad that their cat doesn't seem to care. And the cat jumped in their lap and cuddled. It was there, it just had to have a chance to be shown.

Yeah, just do your best and slowly move the bowls closer. If one seems one edge then move the food back a little to where they will eat comfortably. Just use your judgement. We just want them to be together enjoying something good (food) and not having any negative encounters. I use food all the time when doing the meet and greets. Usually treats but meals too.

Yes, it is hard because baths cause the animal to smell different (not like themselves). You may want to post a new thread on how best to bathe a cat without causing a different scent. Or something like that. I wonder if someone has a trick.

You have done a great job with them.

 

[Animal Freak]

It is kind of nice. They don't bother me to be fed either. They'd all let me starve them until I got up. Then they get excited and run to the kitchen.

I actually just read a couple of stories about distant cats who started getting clingy. Both times they were taken to the vet and given a clean bill of health. One lady found out she was pregnant and the other found out she had cancer. Her cat was what saved her. So it has been proven that every the most distant cats do care. It's just hard to believe sometimes.

I definitely will proceed with care. I'm just going to start with moving her back into the kitchen to where I had her before that she didn't like. It's a little bit of a corner, but the one wall is literally just wide enough for her bowl. I'll see if she's okay with her back to him from there.

I'm pretty sure I've posted about it before, but I can't remember if it was it's own thread or a combined one. I did do one more recently with several things on it including that. Either way, I never got many replies about it so I will probably try again. Most people try to tell me how to keep the allergens down without bathing them, but in the end, cat fur is tough and bathing them is a lot simpler. We do have an alternative and I probably should try it, but I can't say I ever noticed a difference using it though we didn't keep up on it very well. Maybe I'll try it and see if I notice anything.