Started them on raw tonight :D

[ldg]

OK, it's official. Flowerbelle cannot keep down pork liver. So I'm going to stick with chicken liver. :nod:

I'm not sure what to do about Spooky. She's back on 100% raw.... but she won't eat any organs, and not dehydrated, either. And she doesn't like Call of the Wild, or I'd do that for her and skip the organs. I'm going to have to put on the thinking cap here....

Actually, I still have some ground rabbit organs. They're mostly liver, though do have heart and kidney. I'll give those a try. :nod:

 

[gloriajh]

Forgive me if I've already posed this question - I remember wanting to ask it, anyway, so here it is ?again?. 

Aren't you concerned about feeding a lot of liver?  I mean - the liver is the trash can of organs - it cleans the junk from the body - so ?? if that's a true statement, would the liver contain any pesticides, growth hormones, etc. that could be harmful to the cat?

Just wondering. 

 

[ldg]

Well, in the wild, a cat eats all of the animal, liver included. Ounce-for-ounce, along with maybe the kidneys, the liver is the most nutrition-packed part of an animal. And I don't feed a lot of liver, it's 5% of their total intake. So for one cat - let's take Spooky - her weekly total food consumption is 31.5 ounces (just under two pounds). Of that, about 1.5 ounces is liver. She gets three meals a day, each is 1.5 ounces. Three of those a week have 1 ounce of meat and 0.5 ounces of liver. So no, I'm not concerned about her eating it - I'm concerned about her NOT eating it. :lol3:

Besides - when they were eating cat food, who knows what they were eating? They were definitely getting pesticides, growth hormones, mold, bacteria, melted down styrofoam, plastic, pentobarbitol (used to kill animals), potentially euthanized cats and dogs, preservatives (even if a brand doesn't use preservatives, that doesn't mean it doesn't make its way into the food, via stuff used on the ingredients - or, as you point out, via stuff fed to the animals that are in the food).... But liver is in a lot of cat foods, raw or canned or kibble. And if there are by-products in the food, there's likely liver in whatever sludge that is.

Naw, I'm much less worried about what's in a chicken liver than in the food I was feeding them when it was pet grade food. Right now 50% of dogs 10 years or older are dying of cancer, and 1/3 of cats are. Doesn't that blow your mind? If that were happening to people, you can bet SOMETHING would be happening to identify what was causing it. Given the primary difference between a pet's environment and a person's environment is the food, that has to be the source of the problem.

At least I know the food I'm feeding them is fit for human consumption. :nod:

 

[feralvr]

At least I know the food I'm feeding them is fit for human consumption. :nod:

Yep - right there does it for me

 

[feralvr]

OK, it's official. Flowerbelle cannot keep down pork liver. So I'm going to stick with chicken liver. :nod:
I'm not sure what to do about Spooky. She's back on 100% raw.... but she won't eat any organs, and not dehydrated, either. And she doesn't like Call of the Wild, or I'd do that for her and skip the organs. I'm going to have to put on the thinking cap here....
Actually, I still have some ground rabbit organs. They're mostly liver, though do have heart and kidney. I'll give those a try. :nod:

about Spooky.... I know you said she won't eat dehydrated, right? But what about crumbling some of the Halo liver treats or the Whole life liver treats on some food. I know that probably won't work - I know it wouldn't work for Perla. :lol3: Didn't Carolina try that, if I am remembering correctly, using the liver treats. Well, hope the ground rabbit organs will work for your Spook. :cross:
OH AND that she is on 100% raw

 

[carolina]

about Spooky.... I know you said she won't eat dehydrated, right? But what about crumbling some of the Halo liver treats or the Whole life liver treats on some food. I know that probably won't work - I know it wouldn't work for Perla. :lol3: Didn't Carolina try that, if I am remembering correctly, using the liver treats. Well, hope the ground rabbit organs will work for your Spook. :cross:
OH AND that she is on 100% raw

That's how I feed Lucky and Bugsy liver..... They get one FD (Etta Say's) liver treat a day...... and that's that :lol3: They love it - come running from wherever they are as soon as I touch that bag It's their special treat - little they know it's really their carnivore version of brocolli

Totally works for all of us! :bigthumb:

 

[feralvr]

That's how I feed Lucky and Bugsy liver..... They get one FD (Etta Say's) liver treat a day...... and that's that :lol3: They love it - come running from wherever they are as soon as I touch that bag It's their special treat - little they know it's really their carnivore version of brocolli
Totally works for all of us! :bigthumb:

OH I forgot to add in ETTA SAYS!!!!!! YES - that is what I use here and my cats and especially Wilbur LOVE Etta Says beef liver treats. I have more protein liver treats in my cabinet than people treats. IN fact, Larry almost snacked on a container of them earlier - he was so hungry. He says we NEVER have any good people snacks in the house anymore - only pet treats :rofl: I found out about Etta Says from you, btw.

 

[ldg]

:doh3: That's right, Carolina, you told me about them the other night! (Last night?) I'd better go order them before I forget! :lol3:

 

[carolina]

He says we NEVER have any good people snacks in the house anymore - only pet treats :rofl: I found out about Etta Says from you, btw.

isn't that true? Their freezer is sooooo much better than mine! Sometimes I run out of groceries and wonder..... some lamb legs I LOVE LOVE LOVE Lamb
One day I just might feast on that freezer :lol3:
In our house - eating "cat food" has gone to a whole other level

 

[feralvr]

In our house - eating "cat food" has gone to a whole other level

It is our desert now

 

[gloriajh]

Well, in the wild, a cat eats all of the animal, liver included. Ounce-for-ounce, along with maybe the kidneys, the liver is the most nutrition-packed part of an animal. And I don't feed a lot of liver, it's 5% of their total intake. So for one cat - let's take Spooky - her weekly total food consumption is 31.5 ounces (just under two pounds). Of that, about 1.5 ounces is liver. She gets three meals a day, each is 1.5 ounces. Three of those a week have 1 ounce of meat and 0.5 ounces of liver. So no, I'm not concerned about her eating it - I'm concerned about her NOT eating it.

Besides - when they were eating cat food, who knows what they were eating? They were definitely getting pesticides, growth hormones, mold, bacteria, melted down styrofoam, plastic, pentobarbitol (used to kill animals), potentially euthanized cats and dogs, preservatives (even if a brand doesn't use preservatives, that doesn't mean it doesn't make its way into the food, via stuff used on the ingredients - or, as you point out, via stuff fed to the animals that are in the food).... But liver is in a lot of cat foods, raw or canned or kibble. And if there are by-products in the food, there's likely liver in whatever sludge that is.
Naw, I'm much less worried about what's in a chicken liver than in the food I was feeding them when it was pet grade food. Right now 50% of dogs 10 years or older are dying of cancer, and 1/3 of cats are. Doesn't that blow your mind? If that were happening to people, you can bet SOMETHING would be happening to identify what was causing it. Given the primary difference between a pet's environment and a person's environment is the food, that has to be the source of the problem.
At least I know the food I'm feeding them is fit for human consumption.

Thanks for helping me think through that. 

I've been feeding the feral-born raw chicken breasts, and whenever we buy a whole chicken, they get the giblets - well, they don't want anything to do with the neck.  The feral-born cats (outside) are probably eating better than the ones we have inside with us because they also have access to the wildlife they probably capture, and I do feed them other quality food as much as I can, so I doubt they are going to the trash to find food right now. 

 

[ldg]

OK! It's been a while, but I have a couple of updates.

I have incorporated beef into the protein rotation! Sheldon still can't tolerate it at all, so he doesn't get any. He loves it - he just can't keep it down. :lol3: But as with the other red meats, I split the meals, and make it 50/50 with chicken or turkey breast or thigh, and feed them two meals of that 50/50 mix a day. So their proteins are now chicken (breast and thigh), turkey (breast and thigh), pork, rabbit, goat, venison, lamb, and beef.


AND.... the raw diet definitely doesn't cure everything. :lol3: Spooky has had issues with idiopathic cystitis in the past. She's our highly strung kitty, the most easily stressed. And Friday night, she started litter box hopping, and there was blood in her pee. We got her to the vet first thing Saturday. We skipped the antibiotics pending results of the urinalysis/culture, which came in Monday morning. In the meantime, she got sub-q fluids to flush her out, we started her on pred - and because she was still in distress, she got pain meds (buprenex).

The urinalysis indicated no bacteria, but her urine pH was 8.5 and she had struvite crystals. Given she's on a raw diet, which is naturally acidifying, the vet believes this is stress-induced (and it has been stressful around here recently - both inside, with work-related stuff for Gary and I and outside - recently TNRd kitties upsetting the colony and a lot of fighting - and two new intact males, one of which we trapped yesterday). The stress can increase the urine pH, which creates the environment for the struvite crystals - which further increase the urine pH, etc. I also wonder, and this just occurred to me - does blood in the urine increase the pH? :dk:

So she's getting 100ml of sub-q fluids daily for a few days. She'll be on the pred for a week to 10 days. I've ordered a urine acidifier (methigel) just in case (I'm not in love with it, but it would be short term use only), urine pH test strips to keep an eye on her urine pH, and L-theanine, which we'll use to help with her stress levels.

She's already doing much better. She's peeing a lot - but she's being pumped full of a lot of fluids. :lol3: But her peeing is not with that desperate urgency, so that's good. And there's no visible blood, so that's an improvement.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Awww, poor Sheldon not being able to eat beef when he loves it. 

And worse yet, poor Spooky!  Hope she gets better quickly.  I'm sure she will, with your loving care.

Thanks for the update. 

 

[ldg]

Aw, yes, poor deprived Sheldon! :lol3:

Thanks Sally. We're (literally) pumping her full of fluids, and it's working. :cross:

 

[feralvr]

I am SOOO relieved to hear that Spooky is doing better! Stress is the number one culprit in some of these kitties with FIC - Pip included. I bet it has been crazy for you outside with these new feral kitties showing up and that definitely will disturb your indoor babies too. Hopefully once these cats are TNRd and they develop better relationships outside :cross: ... then things will calm down all the way around. :nod: Lots of scritches to Spooky from me. Hope she continues on this positive path to "less stress" :lovegrin:

YAY for the addition of the beef for everyone but Shel. :lol3: Nice though to have something new in the rotation.

 

[ldg]

The changes in the colony have been very upsetting for everyone. Dot, Tabby, and Babygirl no longer come regularly. Dot showed up today - ate a few nibbles, and ran when Khol hissied at her. I hope she came back to eat more. :cross: But she didn't get any loves, which she used to LOVE.

Baloo prefers hanging out at the neighbor's now. They're not feeding him - and I haven't seen him for two days again. Baloo disappearing for days or weeks at a time is becoming a more regular thing. Khol and Fog are contsantly hissing at him, and they stand their ground. Fog and Baloo are slowly working things out, but he avoids Khol like the plague.

We got Smokey TNR'd. There's still a red male, Tommy, that we haven't gotten in the trap yet.

Spooky seems almost back to normal now. The pH test strips and L-theanine didn't arrive today. I'll probably give her fluids tomorrow, and then see how things go after that. She is VERY pissy and swipey at everyone.

 

[feralvr]

Yeah - VERY upsetting to everyone when more kitties come into the colony . Kohl and Fog do sound quite confident - especiall Kohl. I hope that things will settle down. :cross: AND good luck with trapping Tommy. Your doing all you can, sweetie!! :heart3: But, it is very hard to see the fighting and the changes in rankings when the newbies seem strong.... They will work it out.... :nod: :cross:

I really hope that Spooky is feeling better. Have been thinking of her and you. :rub: So hard on us too.

 

[ldg]

OK, update overdue.

Spooky

After tapering her off the pred (she was on it a month), I took her off the methionine (urine acidifier). Her pH crept back up to 8.0. I've put her back on it, just to keep her comfortable and prevent struvites until we get her in for an ultrasound. The ultrasound should show if those three stones found in March are still in there or not. If they are - I guess that's what's causing her urine pH problem, and we'll have them surgically removed UNLESS they're visibly, measurably smaller. If they are, that means she just needs more time on the acidifier to get them dissolved and they are struvite. If not, they're calcium oxalate, and the only option is surgical removal. We'll probably get her in later this week or early next week for the ultrasound.



Proteins

OK. I redesigned my menu. The goat I like is expensive. The HT goat chunks are unreliable in terms of the amount of meat on them. So given the diet was a little light in choline, and I can't remember why the holistic vet said not to worry about it (though the USDA database doesn't have choline information for some of the ingredients in the diet), I swapped out the goat for beef. Beef is high in choline, and since I have no way to feed them live crickets, beef it is. Shel (my kitty with the red meat problem) is able to keep raw beef down if it's 50% or less of the total meal (as it is with the other red meats, pork, and rabbit), so we're good to go. And they like it! So that's a regular part of the rotation now.



Organs

OK. Here's the run-down on where things stand.

Lazlo - being my spoiled cancer survivor, he needs the raw and the nutrients more than all of them.... but I don't want to stress him out getting to eat things he doesn't want to eat. And he does NOT like the texture of liver and kidney. So he gets Call of the Wild. I do give him meals here and there with calcium supplement. But the CoTW works really well for him. It's got a fiber in it that makes his stool bulkier, but given he had issues with constipation throughout the chemo (and leading up to diagnosis), I'm really happy this solves that problem (and I imagine he is too!). He likes freeze dried liver, so he gets that as a topper on non-CoTW meals, or as a treat.

Sheldon - he cannot keep more than a bite or two of liver or kidney down. I've been using freeze dried liver for him, in an amount that equals 10% of his diet, substituting liver for kidney. And he's the reason I'm making the change in my organ strategy that I have.

Tuxedo - he loves kidney, but has trouble keeping liver down! :dk: He also doesn't like liver, and unless it's cut up really small and coated in WL, he doesn't eat it - and then it almost always comes back up.

Spooky - hates CoTW, liver, and kidney. She likes ONLY Etta Says beef liver. It is cooked, freeze dried liver. Beef liver is high in copper, but this is what she eats. I can sneak in some Etta Says lamb and chicken liver here and there. It takes 8 cubes of Etta Says freeze dried liver a day to equal 10% of raw liver in her diet. So she gets 2 cubes crushed on her meals (3 meals a day), and 2 treats a day. She doesn't always eat both of those, but... :dk:

Chumley - eats anything and loves food.

Billy - eats anything and loves food. I haven't taken him for his weigh-in yet, and we're over a month. He's on what mschauer has identified as the "feast or famine" diet. I randomly give him different amounts of food, averaging out to 1.3 ounces per meal over a 3 (sometimes 5) day period. He'll get meals as large as 2 ounces (not frequently - the high end is usually 1.5 ounces), and as small as 0.75 ounces. The first month on this style of feeding (even though I raised his meals from 1 ounce a meal to an average of 1.3 ounces per meal), he lost almost a pound. The only change I made this 2nd month was changing his omega 3 supplement from salmon oil to krill. So we'll see!

Ming Loy - eats anything and loves food. :lol3:

Flowerbelle - LOVES raw liver. She'd live on it if she could. But she'll only eat a couple of bites of kidney.


So.... given Shel, Tuxedo, and Flowerbelle's issues (forget Spooky, this isn't working for her either. She won't eat any of her food if there's raw liver or kidney in it. ), I have altered the feeding strategy.

And I have otto to thank for the idea. otto didn't feel comfortable feeding her Jennie one meal of raw a day not balanced. So she's been balancing her meals with a very small amount of liver. I did, initially, divide up the liver and kidney meals into 3 meals of each per week, and that works out to their one meal, six days a week, that has organs being about 1/3 organ, 2/3 meat. And that hasn't been working too well for Shel, Tux, and Flowerbelle. I was using freeze dried liver for Shel and Tux.

But keeping that Tux can eat a small amount of raw liver and keep it down (and likes kidney), and Shel can eat that couple of bites of raw liver or kidney and keep it down... I decided to make the organ meals even smaller than 1/3 of the meal. So rather than balancing the organs out in 3 meals each of liver and kidney, I started providing a small bit of liver and kidney at two meals a day. I'm experimenting with liver and kidney at two meals a day, or a little bit of liver at a meal, and a little bit of kidney at a different meal. We'll see where things settle in.

So, for instance, Flowerbelle gets 1 ounce of food at each meal. So now she gets 0.85 ounces of meat and 0.15 ounces of kidney for breakfast; 0.85 ounces of meat and 0.15 ounces of liver at dinner (or the late night meal), and 1 ounces of meat for the one non-organ meal a day.

Organ meals balance daily October 2012.JPG

• ldg
• Oct 16, 2012

So my menu (experimentally) now looks like this (the total amounts listed are for 8 cats):

LDG Menu 121011 daily organs.JPG

• ldg
• Oct 16, 2012
• 2

Now - I know it looks complicated, but it isn't. I bag up 10 ounces of meat and 1.5 ounces of liver and kidney. Anything that's a little above and beyond what my cats need at the meals gets fed to the ferals.



Supplementation

I provide omega 3s in the form of salmon oil or krill oil. I can't afford krill for all 8, but based on Flowerbelle, the krill oil has significant benefits over salmon oil when it comes to joint health - and we'll find out soon if it has benefits for weight loss (Billy). Flowerbelle, Lazlo, Chumley, and Billy get krill oil. They each get 500mg once daily. The rest split a 1,000mg capsule of salmon oil at each meal.

I use eggshell and NOW calcium hydroxyapatite to provide calcium. I alternate each one weekly.

I give everyone the Natural Factors double-strength acidophilus+bifidus probiotic sprinkled on their AM meal.

Because mschauer's analysis of the diet - no matter which one - consistently came up short in manganese, I began using the Alnutrin without calcium. I add it to the Hare-Today whole ground animals... I know I'm not feeding ground, so the taurine and B vitamins, etc. shouldn't be an issue as re: loss via oxidation. But based on the recommendation per pound, the quantity per ounce is still pretty small: 5/64 teaspoon, and that doesn't change whether the meal includes organs or not, it's used in the same amount for both. As it is in an egg yolk base, I removed the raw egg yolk as a snack from the menu. They weren't gigantic fans anyway.

Because I'm using Alnutrin now, I've stopped using taurine and vitamin E separately.

I am continuing to give the cats egg yolk lecithin. Obviously the raw egg yolks didn't help the hairballs - so I doubt the Alnutrin would be different. The egg yolk lecithin has had a noticeable impact on the hairball activity here. :nod:

Did I forget anything? :dk: I don't think so!


....and that's where things stand!

 

[ldg]

Spooky goes in for her ultrasound on Tuesday.

 

[carolina]

Spooky goes in for her ultrasound on Tuesday.

for momma