Started them on raw tonight :D

[ldg]

OK. Reddish orange? :lol3:

 

[otto]

All in the eye of the beholder I guess. Or...maybe it depends on the background. On Flowerbelle's chin, now that I look again, it does look kind of orange. In my cats' dishes, and on my fingers, and on Mazy's chinny chin chin, it looks very red.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Yep, I'm going with blood  red.  Looks like I cut my finger when I see all those drops on top of their food.  Thank the heavens that my 3 seem to like it.  Darko is so-so, but at least he'll eat it.  I now use it as a topper for both Callie and Stinkpot

 

[feralvr]

_Flowerbelle doesn't like krill oil 130129.jpg

• ldg
• Jan 29, 2013

Very FUNNY, something Perla would pull too. Just leave it there OR in Perla's case run from it :dash:

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Laurie, back to your post #729 (it's a long post...didn't want to take the space and copy the entire thing

), since you couldn't come up with any scenario that wasn't short on manganese, doesn't that kind of mean that anyone feeding Frankenprey is in the same boat?   Or feeding any homemade (including Hare-Today with Alnutrin)  unless they are adding manganese to their recipe?  Wonder why Alnutrin doesn't have enough manganese?  I mean, your diet (for the "kids") is so varied, I can't imagine it is something lacking n the proteins you serve.  So this has been got me questioning whether or not my "kids" are getting what they need, as well as everyone elses, unless they are using Dr. Pierson's recipe or something.

 

[mschauer]

Laurie, back to your post #729 (it's a long post...didn't want to take the space and copy the entire thing

), since you couldn't come up with any scenario that wasn't short on manganese, doesn't that kind of mean that anyone feeding Frankenprey is in the same boat?   Or feeding any homemade (including Hare-Today with Alnutrin)  unless they are adding manganese to their recipe?  Wonder why Alnutrin doesn't have enough manganese?  I mean, your diet (for the "kids") is so varied, I can't imagine it is something lacking n the proteins you serve.  So this has been got me questioning whether or not my "kids" are getting what they need, as well as everyone elses, unless they are using Dr. Pierson's recipe or something.

A recipe made with Alnutrin won't be deficient in manganese as per AAFCO recommendations because it includes manganese.

The typical Frankenprey diet is deficient in manganese based on AAFCO recommendations. But, if memory serves, that recommendation isn't based on studies that definitively determine the amount of manganese needed in the feline diet but rather is based on studies of other animals. That isn't unusual. Many nutritional recommendations for cats, and humans for that matter, are based on studies of other animals when there is reason to believe cats will have the same requirement. 

As far as feeding a varied diet, remember regardless of how many different types of meat we feed most of us aren't feeding whole animals. It is possible there are nutrients that are abundant in the body parts we don't feed that are important to provide but which aren't abundant in the parts we do feed. Iodine is a good example of this. It is abundant in the thyroid gland which a cat would consume as part of it's natural diet but which most raw feeders don't feed. Most raw diets formulated by veterinarians call for supplemental iodine.

Also, the meats and organs we feed usually don't come from animals that have been raised naturally. Again if memory serves, just about all of the meats and organs we feed contain some manganese. But if the animals they came from weren't fed their natural diet their tissues may not contain as much manganese, and other nutrients, as they otherwise would. The fatty acid profile of true free range beef, for example, is quite different from that of farm raised beef. This is why some raw feeders add omega3 fatty acids (usually from fish or krill oil) to their homemade cat food.

BTW, Dr. Pierson's recipe doesn't call for supplemental manganese. It does call for supplemental iodine though.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Laurie, back to your post #729 (it's a long post...didn't want to take the space and copy the entire thing

), since you couldn't come up with any scenario that wasn't short on manganese, doesn't that kind of mean that anyone feeding Frankenprey is in the same boat?   Or feeding any homemade (including Hare-Today with Alnutrin)  unless they are adding manganese to their recipe?  Wonder why Alnutrin doesn't have enough manganese?  I mean, your diet (for the "kids") is so varied, I can't imagine it is something lacking n the proteins you serve.  So this has been got me questioning whether or not my "kids" are getting what they need, as well as everyone elses, unless they are using Dr. Pierson's recipe or something.

A recipe made with Alnutrin won't be deficient in manganese as per AAFCO recommendations because it includes manganese.    I'm not sure this makes me feel any better, because I don't really trust the AAFCO, but guess right now I'll have to go with it, or else make Laurie's formula ...I should probably just do that since she was nice enough to provide it to us!

The typical Frankenprey diet is deficient in manganese based on AAFCO recommendations. But, if memory serves, that recommendation isn't based on studies that definitively determine the amount of manganese needed in the feline diet   Well, that's ambiguous, isn't it!  Now I'm thinking maybe I'm happy afterall that my little beasties aren't liking those strips of meat I've been trying to get them to eat

 

[mschauer]

Laurie, back to your post #729 (it's a long post...didn't want to take the space and copy the entire thing

), since you couldn't come up with any scenario that wasn't short on manganese, doesn't that kind of mean that anyone feeding Frankenprey is in the same boat?   Or feeding any homemade (including Hare-Today with Alnutrin)  unless they are adding manganese to their recipe?  Wonder why Alnutrin doesn't have enough manganese?  I mean, your diet (for the "kids") is so varied, I can't imagine it is something lacking n the proteins you serve.  So this has been got me questioning whether or not my "kids" are getting what they need, as well as everyone elses, unless they are using Dr. Pierson's recipe or something.

A recipe made with Alnutrin won't be deficient in manganese as per AAFCO recommendations because it includes manganese.    I'm not sure this makes me feel any better, because I don't really trust the AAFCO, but guess right now I'll have to go with it, or else make Laurie's formula ...I should probably just do that since she was nice enough to provide it to us!

Uh, you do realize Laurie used the AAFCO recommendations as the basis of her formula don't you??

The typical Frankenprey diet is deficient in manganese based on AAFCO recommendations. But, if memory serves, that recommendation isn't based on studies that definitively determine the amount of manganese needed in the feline diet   Well, that's ambiguous, isn't it!  Now I'm thinking maybe I'm happy afterall that my little beasties aren't liking those strips of meat I've been trying to get them to eat

No doubt some people are going to be happy just assuming there is no manganese deficiency despite there being evidence, albeit inconclusive, that suggests otherwise. I'm not one of them. 

 

[stealthkitty]

We've just started our kittens on raw, and since we don't have a grinder we're going with a frankenprey diet. Mind if I ask a few questions about manganese?

How much should be included in their diet? Are there any organs that are particularly high in manganese? Is it possible to overdose it?

 

[ldg]

The amount of manganese needed was so very little, that was the stumbling block. :nod:

Honesty, in your situation, I really wouldn't worry about it. As mschauer said, the recommended amount of manganese isn't based on studies in CATS. Also, the profile of the meat you feed your cats will be different than the factory farmed stuff we buy up here. The nutritional profile of the meat and organs will depend on what the feed animals are fed.

There are sooooooo many people feeding whole prey model raw that don't supplement anything other than sardines (tinned, in water, no salt, for the omega 3s and vitamin D) and egg yolks a couple of times a week (for choline and vitamin D) - some are breeders, that have multigenerational raw fed cats at this point - and their kitties are doing awesome, and some of those prey model raw fed cats by breeders are champion show cats.

So given your issues with access, I don't think I'd worry about the little "what ifs," because the diet, if fed in the right proportions of meat, bone, and organs, with the extra egg yolks and sardines, is so superior, in my opinion, to commercial cat food, you're already well ahead of the game. :heart2:

 

[stealthkitty]

Thanks for answering, LDG. OK, I won't worry about it.

You're not kidding when you say the diet is superior. They haven't even been here a week, and we've seen improvements in their energy levels and so much satisfaction at meal times. Too bad more people don't think about what they're feeding their pets.

 

[peaches08]

Thanks for answering, LDG. OK, I won't worry about it. You're not kidding when you say the diet is superior. They haven't even been here a week, and we've seen improvements in their energy levels and so much satisfaction at meal times. Too bad more people don't think about what they're feeding their pets.

I feed homemade raw ground with chunks, but you are so right! I've never seen a transformation like this! People are always amazed at my cats' eyes and coats.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

OK, got another question.  I'm guessing Krill Oil would substitute for sardines.  Would Egg Yolk Lecithin substitute for egg yolks?  (for those pickies who won't eat either sardine or egg yolks!)

Just curious

 

[carolina]

OK, got another question.  I'm guessing Krill Oil would substitute for sardines.  Would Egg Yolk Lecithin substitute for egg yolks?  (for those pickies who won't eat either sardine or egg yolks!)

Just curious

In my house that's the case

 

[ldg]

OK, got another question.  I'm guessing Krill Oil would substitute for sardines.  Would Egg Yolk Lecithin substitute for egg yolks?  (for those pickies who won't eat either sardine or egg yolks!)

Just curious

I feed mine ground food 4x a week so I can get egg yolks in the ones that don't like them. Basically, they get 1/4 of a egg yolk via the ground meal, so they get one egg yolk a week. I do offer 1/2 a yolk 2x a week to them all, some eat some of it, some eat all of it, some don't eat any of it. But I mix it with a little water so it's not as sticky, and put a topper on it, and that seems to help.

There's some choline in egg yolk lecithin, but nothing like in egg yolk.

 

[melrai]

I'm SO happy you are sharing your experience here! This is SUCH great help to all of us. 

GOODLUCK! And I will keep on rooting for your little fur babies!!! 

 

[ldg]

OK. Tuxie had his annual with the vet that is skeptical about raw - but otherwise a fabulous vet.

His hematocrit was 45%! :9: He said he's never looked better. Stan was positively beaming.


And while I don't know how much Ming Loy weighs these days, I thought a little update on her weight situation was in order.

This is from August 2011. (We began raw January 2012). We don't have a scale, so I don't know how much she weighed here. But her highest recorded weight is a little over 10 pounds.

(In all fairness, this picture does make her look fatter than she was. But she was a fatty weeble).

_Ming Loy always happy! 110814.jpg

• ldg
• May 8, 2013

This is a picture from a few days ago:

_Ming loy not fat 130501.jpg

• ldg
• May 8, 2013

We didn't take Ming Loy to see Stan (yet). He was her vet when she was rescued, and he did the surgery on the cyst on her neck. So I showed him the pictures, and he was (of course) SO pleased!

Our little Tubba Wubba isn't tubby any more. She probably weighs around 8 pounds. She has the same frame size as Flowerbelle, but isn't AS thin as Flowerbelle.

 

[otto]

That's a lovely waistline she has now!

 

[vball91]

Glad to hear that Tuxie is doing so well. I think you'll convince Stan on the merits of raw eventually.

Ming Loy looks so sleek and shiny in that last pic.

 

[ldg]

Yes, she has a waist again! She makes me smile all day long. :heart2:

And she doesn't look as glossy in that 2nd photo because it's crappy photo. :lol3: But she is shinier and softer now. :heart2:

As to Stan.. he's not opposed to a raw diet per se. He's just seen to many problems from homemade raw gone wrong, mostly people feeding just meat! So he's cautious, and I do understand.