So glad it's working. Now are you doing this for ALL the kitties, or just for Shel? And ground only, or ground AND Frankenprey?
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Started them on raw tonight :D
- Thread starter ldg
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- #682
It'll be easier just to do it for all the cats. :nod: My current menu for today was goat in the AM and pork in the PM. All my bags of meat are made for an entire meal for 8 cats. So it's just easiest to dethaw AM and PM meat, use half of each at both meals. :nod: And going forward, I'll probably just keep bagging my freezer baggies with single proteins, just dethaw them at the same time and use half at each of two meals a day. :nod: I just needed to make sure I could keep lamb and goat in the rotation!
As to ground... it's not technically in the menu at all. I do give Spooky ground something almost every morning, but I continue to add the cut up raw stuff I'm feeding the others, and I'm slowly increasing the amount. She's still balking sometimes at stuff other than pork or chicken breast. But so far, the only ground that everyone seems to really like is the llama. :dk: Pork and goat most of them prefer the chunks of meat, and ground rabbit has been hit or miss. :lol3: I may schedule it into the menu once a week, just because rabbit is SUCH a PIA to debone.
Much easier if I just feed it once a week with ground once a week. :anon:
I found a study on the fatty acids in Llama, and since it appears feeding llama wouldn't help bring down the O6:O3 ratio, I don't think I'll bother with it. :dk:
As to ground... it's not technically in the menu at all. I do give Spooky ground something almost every morning, but I continue to add the cut up raw stuff I'm feeding the others, and I'm slowly increasing the amount. She's still balking sometimes at stuff other than pork or chicken breast. But so far, the only ground that everyone seems to really like is the llama. :dk: Pork and goat most of them prefer the chunks of meat, and ground rabbit has been hit or miss. :lol3: I may schedule it into the menu once a week, just because rabbit is SUCH a PIA to debone.
Much easier if I just feed it once a week with ground once a week. :anon:I found a study on the fatty acids in Llama, and since it appears feeding llama wouldn't help bring down the O6:O3 ratio, I don't think I'll bother with it. :dk:
That's what I have been doing too with Walden and Wendall. I just split a baggie of two proteins amongst them. They love it and it keeps things varied for them. The other's mostly get one protein at a time. I usually have quite a few different proteins each day ready for meals. I also have to feed Wilbur and Henry raw too - so my fridge is full of defrosting proteins. :bigwink:
Llama mama's fatty acids Can you please explain the 06:03 ratio... I assume you are talking about the Calcium/phosphorus... 
:lol3: I am about to place my order with HT. Duck hearts !!!!!!!!!! Quail, Pheasant and Rabbit this go around. I am hoping they will like the rabbit :cross: I am bypassing the goat this time. Presley is turning into a fat little goat from eating the goat :rofl: He is a bowling ball...... :slant:
Llama mama's fatty acids Can you please explain the 06:03 ratio... I assume you are talking about the Calcium/phosphorus... :lol3: I am about to place my order with HT. Duck hearts !!!!!!!!!! Quail, Pheasant and Rabbit this go around. I am hoping they will like the rabbit :cross: I am bypassing the goat this time. Presley is turning into a fat little goat from eating the goat :rofl: He is a bowling ball...... :slant:
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #684
Actually, goat is the least fatty of the red meats, and has the lowest omega 6 profile of just about any meat. 
First, the venison/chicken breast mix worked, so I'm all set to work on the new menu!
And yeah, you were out of town when I started working on the omega issue! :lol3:
The O6:O3 ratio is the Omega 6 (fatty acids) to Omega 3 (fatty acids) ratio. Omega 6s are generally inflammatory, they're the "saturated" fats. Omega 3s are anti-inflammatory, they're the "polyunsaturated" fats (PUFAs :lol3: ).
We're old enough that when we were kids, our meats had a different O6:O3 ratio, because most of our meat was still grazing before it went to the supermarket or butcher. The advent of factory farming and our "grain fed" meats has significantly raised the amount of omega 6 fatty acids in our meats. :nod: The main source of omega 3s is food from lakes/oceans (fish, shellfish, etc.).
Here's an excellent short summary of what they are, what they do, and why they're important: http://www.pethealth101.com/arthritis_and_joint/fattyacid.shtml
The AAFCO does, I THINK, have a minimum recommendation for one or two of the omega 6 essential fatty acids (AA - arachidonic acid and LA - linoleic acid). I'm pretty sure there are no minimum recommendations for any of the Omega 3 essential fatty acids (the two most important for cats being EPA - eicosapentaenoic acid and DHA - docosahexaenoic acid).
In the literature on the subject, "everyone" seems to agree that current diets have a ratio of O6:03 that is MUCH too high (way to many omega 6s, not being offset by enough omega 3s) - but we can't seem to find ANY consensus on HOW to calculate the O6:O3 ratio properly (because there are a lot more 6s and 3s than just those four). There does seem to be a consensus that a ratio of below 5:1 O6:O3 is desirable. Some suggest it should be 2:1 or 1:1, but without heaps of fish, it's pretty difficult to get there (if you use only AA+LA for the omega 6 value and EPA+DHA for the omega 3 value).
AND the whole thing is complicated by the QUALITY of the omega 3s. They are not very stable, and how the salmon or fish oil is processed makes a BIG difference, and they pretty much oxidize in the process of being put into pet food at all, which is why kibble and canned, despite supplements for many of them, still have a terrible O6:03 ratio (often approaching 20:1). That's the issue with Vitamin E - it is used to stabilize omega 3, or "offset" issues that arise from oxidation of omega 3s. But so far I'm finding that Vitamin E doesn't need to be supplemented if using a high quality salmon oil supplement. And for me it's also not as much an issue (as I'm learning), because I don't make food and freeze it: I add the salmon oil when I make and feed the meal, so there is no oxidation or freezer degradation of the salmon oil.
The Plantinga study of feral cat diets indicates that in the wild, their natural O6:03 ratio is about 2:1. (In the study, they use n-6:n-3 as the notation for the same thing).
mschauer offered to analyze the menu we had for the cats. I took her up on it. I don't remember the first run, but I do remember the omega 6mega 3 ratio was somewhere around 12:1 or something like that.
And especially now, because of Lazlo's cancer and Flowerbelle's asthma and arthritis, I REALLY want them on an anti-inflammatory diet - and especially because she can't have the typical treatments for arthritis as they're contra-indicated because of her high blood pressure and the asthma (and the anti-inflammatory diet will be good for those too ).
So I'm altering the menu - or trying to - to bring down the O6:03 ratio, but without losing a lot of the nutrients. For instance, I feed hearts 3x a week: duck hearts at one meal, turkey hearts at another meal, and chicken hearts at the third meal. The chicken hearts have 2.63mg per 100kg of AA+LA (omega 6s). By replacing them with lamb hearts, that have 0.33mg per 100kg of AA+LA, I can likely (haven't asked mschauer to run a new menu, I don't have it put together yet) reduce the O6:03 ratio but not dramatically impact the other nutrients.
I don't know how replacing some of the chicken thigh and turkey thigh in the diet will affect the nutrient profile - potentially dramatically. But chicken thigh has 0.813mg/100kg AA+LA, whereas chicken breast has only 0.35mg/100kg of AA+LA. Changing this will change the other nutrients, but I'll have just have to see!
Here's another easy-to-understand discussion of fats in a cat's diet, written by Michelle Bernard of Blakkatz cattery, author of the book "Raising Cats Naturally." http://www.blakkatz.com/fat.pdf
I have lowered the ratio of O6:03 by adding 21,000mg of salmon oil (one 1000mg capsule divided between 8 cats at each meal) and the weekly "treat" of one sardine for each cat to about 6:1. But I want to lower it further - and rather than add more O3, I want to try to lower the O6 by adjusting the meat and organ mix.
This is the salmon oil I'm going to use: (It's available at Costco, I think for less). This is information about it: http://www.alaskaproteinrecovery.com/salmonoil We currently have Nordic Naturals, which is recommended on a lot of cat blogs discussing the Omega issue. They claim there is no benefit to "virgin, cold pressed" which the Pure Alaska Omega is, but I'm not sure I believe that. :lol3:
Long answer, sorry!
First, the venison/chicken breast mix worked, so I'm all set to work on the new menu!
And yeah, you were out of town when I started working on the omega issue! :lol3:
The O6:O3 ratio is the Omega 6 (fatty acids) to Omega 3 (fatty acids) ratio. Omega 6s are generally inflammatory, they're the "saturated" fats. Omega 3s are anti-inflammatory, they're the "polyunsaturated" fats (PUFAs :lol3: ).
We're old enough that when we were kids, our meats had a different O6:O3 ratio, because most of our meat was still grazing before it went to the supermarket or butcher. The advent of factory farming and our "grain fed" meats has significantly raised the amount of omega 6 fatty acids in our meats. :nod: The main source of omega 3s is food from lakes/oceans (fish, shellfish, etc.).
Here's an excellent short summary of what they are, what they do, and why they're important: http://www.pethealth101.com/arthritis_and_joint/fattyacid.shtml
The AAFCO does, I THINK, have a minimum recommendation for one or two of the omega 6 essential fatty acids (AA - arachidonic acid and LA - linoleic acid). I'm pretty sure there are no minimum recommendations for any of the Omega 3 essential fatty acids (the two most important for cats being EPA - eicosapentaenoic acid and DHA - docosahexaenoic acid).
In the literature on the subject, "everyone" seems to agree that current diets have a ratio of O6:03 that is MUCH too high (way to many omega 6s, not being offset by enough omega 3s) - but we can't seem to find ANY consensus on HOW to calculate the O6:O3 ratio properly (because there are a lot more 6s and 3s than just those four). There does seem to be a consensus that a ratio of below 5:1 O6:O3 is desirable. Some suggest it should be 2:1 or 1:1, but without heaps of fish, it's pretty difficult to get there (if you use only AA+LA for the omega 6 value and EPA+DHA for the omega 3 value).
AND the whole thing is complicated by the QUALITY of the omega 3s. They are not very stable, and how the salmon or fish oil is processed makes a BIG difference, and they pretty much oxidize in the process of being put into pet food at all, which is why kibble and canned, despite supplements for many of them, still have a terrible O6:03 ratio (often approaching 20:1). That's the issue with Vitamin E - it is used to stabilize omega 3, or "offset" issues that arise from oxidation of omega 3s. But so far I'm finding that Vitamin E doesn't need to be supplemented if using a high quality salmon oil supplement. And for me it's also not as much an issue (as I'm learning), because I don't make food and freeze it: I add the salmon oil when I make and feed the meal, so there is no oxidation or freezer degradation of the salmon oil.
The Plantinga study of feral cat diets indicates that in the wild, their natural O6:03 ratio is about 2:1. (In the study, they use n-6:n-3 as the notation for the same thing).
mschauer offered to analyze the menu we had for the cats. I took her up on it. I don't remember the first run, but I do remember the omega 6
mega 3 ratio was somewhere around 12:1 or something like that. And especially now, because of Lazlo's cancer and Flowerbelle's asthma and arthritis, I REALLY want them on an anti-inflammatory diet - and especially because she can't have the typical treatments for arthritis as they're contra-indicated because of her high blood pressure and the asthma (and the anti-inflammatory diet will be good for those too
).So I'm altering the menu - or trying to - to bring down the O6:03 ratio, but without losing a lot of the nutrients. For instance, I feed hearts 3x a week: duck hearts at one meal, turkey hearts at another meal, and chicken hearts at the third meal. The chicken hearts have 2.63mg per 100kg of AA+LA (omega 6s). By replacing them with lamb hearts, that have 0.33mg per 100kg of AA+LA, I can likely (haven't asked mschauer to run a new menu, I don't have it put together yet) reduce the O6:03 ratio but not dramatically impact the other nutrients.
I don't know how replacing some of the chicken thigh and turkey thigh in the diet will affect the nutrient profile - potentially dramatically. But chicken thigh has 0.813mg/100kg AA+LA, whereas chicken breast has only 0.35mg/100kg of AA+LA. Changing this will change the other nutrients, but I'll have just have to see!
Here's another easy-to-understand discussion of fats in a cat's diet, written by Michelle Bernard of Blakkatz cattery, author of the book "Raising Cats Naturally." http://www.blakkatz.com/fat.pdf
I have lowered the ratio of O6:03 by adding 21,000mg of salmon oil (one 1000mg capsule divided between 8 cats at each meal) and the weekly "treat" of one sardine for each cat to about 6:1. But I want to lower it further - and rather than add more O3, I want to try to lower the O6 by adjusting the meat and organ mix.
This is the salmon oil I'm going to use: (It's available at Costco, I think for less). This is information about it: http://www.alaskaproteinrecovery.com/salmonoil We currently have Nordic Naturals, which is recommended on a lot of cat blogs discussing the Omega issue. They claim there is no benefit to "virgin, cold pressed" which the Pure Alaska Omega is, but I'm not sure I believe that. :lol3:
Long answer, sorry!
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THANK YOU SO MUCH - not long at all, and I really appreciate the detailed and exact information. This is something I am interested in now after reading your post - especially for Wendall and Pipsqueak. I am really hoping they love the hearts - all of them. :cross: I was just at Costco today - and didn't see your post until after I got home. Will definitely pick up the Pure Alaska Salmon oil. For my cats AND for myself :lol3: Interesting to know that the natural feral diet is 2:1. A lot to analyze to make sure the cats are receiving the proper amounts of the Omega 3's and the Omega 6's. I will be curious to see your new menu :happy3: IF you want to share, that is
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #686
Of course I'll share! :lol3:
OK. Tried the ground rabbit organs. They're approximately 50% liver, 25% kidney, 25% heart. Everyone that liked them LOVED them. Shel and Lazlo HATED them. NOT such a big deal for Lazlo as he likes the Call of the Wild. But not a solution for organs for Shelly. But I think I'll keep them in the revised menu - SO easy. :lol3:
OK. Tried the ground rabbit organs. They're approximately 50% liver, 25% kidney, 25% heart. Everyone that liked them LOVED them. Shel and Lazlo HATED them. NOT such a big deal for Lazlo as he likes the Call of the Wild. But not a solution for organs for Shelly. But I think I'll keep them in the revised menu - SO easy. :lol3:
OH GOODIE!!!!!!!!!!! :lol3: I knew you would share - can't wait to see the new menu :bigthumb:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #688
I am REALLY late for feeding the kitties. Just wanted to toss this up here. I'll write a bit about it tomorrow. If you click on it, you can see a bigger picture.
New menu:
If you click on it, you can see a bigger picture.New menu:
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Ooooooooooooo 
Looks just perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am impressed!!!!!!!!! Great schedule. I hope that one day - I will have a detailed schedule. I am still one day out only with planning my meals. The day before kind of thing. :lol3: Just open my lovely freezer and look at all the pre-packaged baggies and pick away. Seems to be working. The problem I have is that they all eat something a little different. I would need a five schedules. 
One for the two W's. and One for each of the other's. 
No one seems to eat the same thing at each meal. Although, I am sure you have some variation and nothing is set in stone either :lol3: Thank you for sharing!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is MY goal to someday reach a more simple plan of attack on a feeding schedule for my fussies. OH I did get the sardines...... OH and the duck hearts are a comin' !!!!!!!!!!!! Something new to try this week! :cross:
Looks just perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am impressed!!!!!!!!! Great schedule. I hope that one day - I will have a detailed schedule. I am still one day out only with planning my meals. The day before kind of thing. :lol3: Just open my lovely freezer and look at all the pre-packaged baggies and pick away. Seems to be working. The problem I have is that they all eat something a little different. I would need a five schedules. One for the two W's. and One for each of the other's. No one seems to eat the same thing at each meal. Although, I am sure you have some variation and nothing is set in stone either :lol3: Thank you for sharing!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is MY goal to someday reach a more simple plan of attack on a feeding schedule for my fussies. OH I did get the sardines...... OH and the duck hearts are a comin' !!!!!!!!!!!! Something new to try this week! :cross:- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #690
Yeah, well, there's the forgetting to dethaw something, realizing I don't have something, and Spooky's got her own thing going on. :lol3:
YEAH - a real problem when the brain stops functioning.... :lol3: AND another yeah - we all seem to be blessed with that "ONE" PIA who is from that other planet.... :spin: :rotate: I guess they spice things up for us if you like spice, that is. 
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #692
Carolina found a new source for rabbit, and my first order arrived today. THIS is BEAUTIFUL rabbit!
Flowerbelle decided to take on the whole thing when I was about to start taking the meat off the bone. :lol3:
Flowerbelle decided to take on the whole thing when I was about to start taking the meat off the bone. :lol3:
Carolina found a new source for rabbit, and my first order arrived today. THIS is BEAUTIFUL rabbit!
Flowerbelle decided to take on the whole thing when I was about to start taking the meat off the bone. :lol3:
THAT's the seal of approval right there
Flowerbelle is your quality control inspector-cat :lol3:
I have a huuuuge on in my freezer, getting the courage to defrost and debone - need to do it this week for sure - I am sure the kids will appreciate rabbit back in their menu..... I should buy some more too :nod:
I called in to buy, and my call ended up lasting about 2hrs :lol3:
The owner is this awesome farmer..... thick, thick (did I say THICK) southern accent, sweetest gentleman, who takes a LOT of pride on his rabbits and his meat.... He gave me a lesson on rabbits..... and farming......
I was so impressed when I got his box, spotless, top quality rabbit meat.
Now I am excited to finally spend a week at home so I can debone that big boy (the rabbit, I mean :lol3
and feed to the kitties! Let me know how the kids like it Laurie!!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #694
Well everyone got tastes as I was bagging it up, and even Spooky liked it!!!! :bigthumb:
oh Look at your princess GO at that rabbit 
It is the same size as she is :lol3: OMG I can only imagine what rincess: Perla would do if I put that big boy on a plate. Would make for an entertaining moment for sure. And YAY for Spooky, add another one to her meal schedule
Oh Carolina.... You certainly find the good stuff :bigthumb: Have fun deboning girls !!! Lucky kitties :rub: Bet they will love it. 
It is the same size as she is :lol3: OMG I can only imagine what rincess: Perla would do if I put that big boy on a plate. Would make for an entertaining moment for sure. And YAY for Spooky, add another one to her meal schedule Oh Carolina.... You certainly find the good stuff :bigthumb:
Have fun deboning girls !!! Lucky kitties :rub: Bet they will love it.
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Love the picture! So...what I'm wondering is...are you going to share the name of this new source of rabbit? I don't recall seeing it anywhere! Do they have other stuff too?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #697
No, it's just rabbit. We've been ordering large ones, so there's less work getting more meat off the bones. :lol3:
http://www.ardengrabbit.com/buyrabbitmeat.html
http://www.ardengrabbit.com/buyrabbitmeat.html
Tip: call in and ask for the extra large adult rabbits- they can get up to 5-6 lbs.... Do not come around often, so you need to call and ask for the largest rabbits he got. I have a monster in my freezer now, probably around 5+ lbs.... Lots of meat! The owner is awesome! A true sweetheart!
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- #699
Yeah, I ordered the 3-pound ones because there were no monsters. But it was still a LOT of meat on the rabbits, and so much easier to handle than the little pieces from HT. Because Ardeng's rabbits are human-grade and meant for human consumption, they're REALLY beautifully trimmed. :nod: I can see why they take pride in their rabbits!
Yep, its beautiful meat! Soooo clean! So yummy! 
