Overwhelmed by Giardia

kashmir64

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Apr 9, 2017
Messages
4,346
Reaction score
6,957
Location
Arizona
Ryder's poop could clear a room. It smells terrible, is wet, and a light brown. For the past 3-4 days his poop has been formed but soft which is an improvement over the piles he used to have. Due to the inflammation and diarrhea, he also has been having symptoms of an anal prolapse. Haven't seen that in the past 4 days or so though. There seems to a bit of improvement all around but his stool isn't in great shape. Not sure if it's still Giardia or if things are just slow to improve since he's had it for so long. They're due for a re-test this weekend, so I guess I'll find out soon.

For probiotics, I give them a capsule of Proviable a day. I have Bene-Bac on hand but wanted to get a negative Giardia test before giving it to them.
Here's hoping for a favorable result.
Brown poop doesn't sound like Giardia, but I'm not going to say it's not. Hopefully, it's just that his tummy is sensitive and he needs time to get better.
Try putting some (liquid) coconut oil on his anus. It will help with the dryness and pain.
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
2,073
Reaction score
797
Luck is always needed. That is great. The test will tells us a lot.

It depends on what is causing the diarrhea. So a steroid may or may not help.The test will be very helpful then it is eliminating things and trial and error.

Oftentimes, ferals (because of worry about access to food) will overeat. So to see them heavy is not abnormal. Maybe the high glucose is causing some of it or other issues.

Could t be an allergic reaction? Some cats are allergic to certain ingredients or even proteins. Chicken can be a culprit. Was he eating a different food inside than he did outside?

I hear you on adopting. I never have luck either. Either everyone is already full or they are allergic. :(

Foul smell etc. Could be issues or allergic reaction. The PCR test will help. I would look at what may have changed in his diet as well. I think it is too early to worry about a chronic condition.

Yes, I am guessing stress probably played a role in his throwing up. Cats don't like change AND they pick up on our stresses. And of course, he is still probably worried about his future. He doesn't want to lose the good situation he now has.

Let's see what the PCR test comes back with. I would also look at the diet and see if there are any ingredients/proteins that might be causing it. Just general stress could be causing it as well. I would rule out parasites etc. And just keep communicating and asking the vet about what it might be.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #44

juju521

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
27
Reaction score
15
I had put the oil in a spritz bottle I got in the trial size isle of Walmart. Just spray it on.
Is any coconut oil ok? Not sure if there's anything I should look out for. Ryder had a yellowish pus like substance oozing from his anal sacs today to add to the list of things to worry about. I emailed his vet today, so hoping I'll get advice on next steps tomorrow.
 

kashmir64

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Apr 9, 2017
Messages
4,346
Reaction score
6,957
Location
Arizona
Is any coconut oil ok? Not sure if there's anything I should look out for. Ryder had a yellowish pus like substance oozing from his anal sacs today to add to the list of things to worry about. I emailed his vet today, so hoping I'll get advice on next steps tomorrow.
I used organic coconut oil I bought at the store in the baking isle.
Yellow pus is a new one on me (in Giardia). Let us know what the vet says it could be.
Walmart sells a variety of empty spray type bottles in the trial size isle.
 

Meowmee

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
254
Reaction score
215
Luck is always needed. That is great. The test will tells us a lot.

It depends on what is causing the diarrhea. So a steroid may or may not help.The test will be very helpful then it is eliminating things and trial and error.

Oftentimes, ferals (because of worry about access to food) will overeat. So to see them heavy is not abnormal. Maybe the high glucose is causing some of it or other issues.

Could t be an allergic reaction? Some cats are allergic to certain ingredients or even proteins. Chicken can be a culprit. Was he eating a different food inside than he did outside?

I hear you on adopting. I never have luck either. Either everyone is already full or they are allergic. :(

Foul smell etc. Could be issues or allergic reaction. The PCR test will help. I would look at what may have changed in his diet as well. I think it is too early to worry about a chronic condition.

Yes, I am guessing stress probably played a role in his throwing up. Cats don't like change AND they pick up on our stresses. And of course, he is still probably worried about his future. He doesn't want to lose the good situation he now has.

Let's see what the PCR test comes back with. I would also look at the diet and see if there are any ingredients/proteins that might be causing it. Just general stress could be causing it as well. I would rule out parasites etc. And just keep communicating and asking the vet about what it might be.
I will write more later but wanted to say that Merlin tested positive for clostridium difficile this time. He is not really responding to the steroid treatment. Dvm said in a message it is an opportunistic infection which invades an inflamed bowel and that is why the test is positive this time and negative last time. I disagree and think that it was actually positive last time but the sample was too old and refrigerated or there were test errors.

I have not spoken with Dvm yet but hopefully I will today or Sunday. He recommended more Flagyl and possibly clavamox. I will try it but since he did not respond very well to Flagyl either I wonder if anything is ever going to help him at this point. DVM was pushing ultrasound and biopsies again. I am also worried now that Quinn could catch this because he had diarrhea troubles as a kitten which I cured with his diet. So what are the other treatments for CD?

I was in the emergency room for many hours again most of yesterday and into the early a.m. today this time with a friend. So I will try to write more later since I am going back to visit again soon.
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
2,073
Reaction score
797
Well, at least there is something that can be addressed now. I am not familiar with clostridium difficile. I would suggest starting a new thread titled Clostridium Difficle - Need Help so that others that have experience can add to it and it doesn't get lost AND that it could be a "go to" thread for others dealing with that.

DVM will know how to treat it and just try your best and make sure he gets all the medicine. If it can be given with food then make sure that it is really stinky strong tasting food that can cover up the medicine AND try to make sure he is really hungry so that he is more likely to eat all the food and medicine.

I know it is frustrating and stressful but you are at least on the right track now and have a plan and with that knowledge and your desire to get him healthy I think you can succeed.

I don;t know how contagious it is or how it gets transmitted but personally I would ask the vet and in the meantime keep them separated totally. I always try to be most cautious until I understand the risks.

Hang in there and try to stay as positive as possible. It is actually good that you now seem to know what is going on and the DVM will have the treatment process so I think there is a positive path to getting him healthy.

I would start a new thread so that people with experience with this can help out. I am sorry I can;t be more helpful but with the vet and hopefully others on the site you can make progress in getting him healthy again.

Here is a link that may be helpful. Suspected Clostridium difficile-associated diarrhea in two cats. - PubMed - NCBI
 

Meowmee

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
254
Reaction score
215
Yes I will start a thread soon. He is on clavamox now as well as the pred. Still mushy poop,ugh. Hard to stay positive when there seems to be no end in sight ever and it has been 1.5 months maybe. The odd thing is that I have read that cd is naturally in their system so how can it be causing the runs? I found that article as well. Only two cats have ever had runs from cd? Or only two have been documented. Maybe it is not cd causing it then? Dvm said it is an opportunistic infection that enters into an inflamed bowel so if that is true there must be another cause.

It is hard to medicate him because some gets spit out if I don’t get it perfectly angled in his mouth. He has to be scruffed to do it. He wont eat it in food consistently so I am not even going to try- this stuff is expensive and I’m not gonna waste it.

I really hate clavamox in the liquid form because it never is the right amount, I’ve had this problem for years and explained it to several Dvm and none of them seem to get it. Once when I think Syb was taking that I told them that it only had like half the doses it was supposed to and they gave me another bottle. That is already happening here because there’s barely any left and I have only given him six doses. Each bottle is supposed to last five days and they gave me three only one mixed, so I’m not sure what to do I’m going to have to call them and explain that it has all evaporated already. He is supposed to be on this for 15 days. They are calling the tylosan in to a compounding pharmacy. But I am not sure if I’m supposed to start him on that at the same time as the clavamox and steroid? There was a lot of confusion when I went to pick up the medication as well. They had given me a clavamox pills even though I told them I cannot pill him. And they gave me a liquid bottle of more Flagyl – not sure why… I explained that Flagyl was not working and that he was supposed to be getting Tylosan instead. So they had to go in the back and figure out what was going on.

Seems like each conversation I have about the medication does not seem to be getting through and then what was discussed on the phone is not what is actually done when I get there. There were also no directions on whether I’m supposed to give him all of this all at the same time I had forgotten to ask that when I was on the phone but really it should be written down. Or discussed verbally.

The stuff is all outrageously expensive it was $70 or so for 15 days of liquid Clavamox! And I’m sure the tylosan is going to be like $30-$50 more from the Compounding Pharmacy.

I just don’t know what is going to happen if he doesn’t respond to any of this? Dvm said it could take several weeks of the steroid for it to work.

I asked DVM if Quinn can get this and he said it’s possible. I don’t know what to do because I can’t keep them totally separated and they have already been integrated although not 24 hours a day for a few weeks now because I was told there was nothing contagious after the first negative tests. As soon as I open the door Quinn runs in or Merlin runs out. And Merlin is starting to scratch the wood and peel away the actual door around where the pet door is when he’s in there by himself now. Short of getting a chip door we’re only Merlin could go in and out and keeping Quinn locked in the room when Merlin is out I’m not sure what I’m going to do and he’s already been exposed to him. So I don’t know what to do. I mean I’m gonna have to start keeping Quinn in my room which is going to be a nightmare. I went through that nightmare with him and Syb and I swear I am never going to go through this again.

He seems to be getting more obese too, even though I am feeding him less. Dvm just wanted to keep giving him more flagyl which helped but did not stop the runs and doesn't really seem to have any plan Except keep pushing US and endoscopy/ biopsies. At which point I just said well what are you gonna do after that give him a steroid right? and he said yes and I said but that isn’t even working at this point so far anyway.
 
Last edited:

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
2,073
Reaction score
797
I know it is hard but it sounds like you are doing everything you should be and doing your best, I know that is not a satisfying but you are doing what you is needed.

I know. These things are so complex. It is hard to know what is really going on. I am just not experienced enough but just trust your vet and keep asking questions and it is a lot of trial and error. It is really hard but I get a sense you are going to succeed since you are doing all the important things to find a solution.

Giving medicine is hard but it sounds like you are experienced and are doing your best.

Yes, a lot of vet clinics and communication are not good. Just keep asking and don;t be afraid to ask to speak with the vet. They may call after hours but getting the vet could be helpful.

Just take one step at a time and try not to worry about what might happen. I know it is easier said than done but just do your best.

I personally would keep them totally separated just in case. I know it is less than ideal for them but I always look at the risk of spreading and reinfection etc. I always try to contain something then do my best to address it. I know it is hard, and the cats don't like it but I tend to believe it is best. But ask your vet how important that might be.I would try to keep him in an area where clean up is easiest etc, When my cat had giardia I had her in a large crate which was easy to clean with enough room for her to move around, use the litter, etc. It is less than ideal for the cat but it contains the issue (at least for giardia). For other issues it may not be, I just don't know. I would ask the vet how you should proceed.

Well, at least he is not losing weight which is a risk. I know, a lot of tests are done and expensive and the resulting treatment is the same. :/ You asked the vet the right questions in my opinion.

Hang in there, I know it is difficult and stressful and frustrating but it sounds like you are doing everything possible to help. That is all you can really do.
 

Meowmee

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
254
Reaction score
215
I know it is hard but it sounds like you are doing everything you should be and doing your best, I know that is not a satisfying but you are doing what you is needed.

I know. These things are so complex. It is hard to know what is really going on. I am just not experienced enough but just trust your vet and keep asking questions and it is a lot of trial and error. It is really hard but I get a sense you are going to succeed since you are doing all the important things to find a solution.

Giving medicine is hard but it sounds like you are experienced and are doing your best.

Yes, a lot of vet clinics and communication are not good. Just keep asking and don;t be afraid to ask to speak with the vet. They may call after hours but getting the vet could be helpful.

Just take one step at a time and try not to worry about what might happen. I know it is easier said than done but just do your best.

I personally would keep them totally separated just in case. I know it is less than ideal for them but I always look at the risk of spreading and reinfection etc. I always try to contain something then do my best to address it. I know it is hard, and the cats don't like it but I tend to believe it is best. But ask your vet how important that might be.I would try to keep him in an area where clean up is easiest etc, When my cat had giardia I had her in a large crate which was easy to clean with enough room for her to move around, use the litter, etc. It is less than ideal for the cat but it contains the issue (at least for giardia). For other issues it may not be, I just don't know. I would ask the vet how you should proceed.

Well, at least he is not losing weight which is a risk. I know, a lot of tests are done and expensive and the resulting treatment is the same. :/ You asked the vet the right questions in my opinion.

Hang in there, I know it is difficult and stressful and frustrating but it sounds like you are doing everything possible to help. That is all you can really do.

Thanks. Frustrated etc does not begin to describe how I feel about all of this and dealing with these people. Will reply more later, but wanted to say at some point I think I will need to take him to a specialist maybe. This dvm office is not doing what needs to be done and the medication is costing a fortune. I looked up clavamox and found there is a generic version at revival online which costs less than half the price. I will find out if they can call in an rx there instead so at least if I am not getting the proper amount of doses it is not highway robbery.

I called and explained that the med must have evaporated and there was none left after only 6 doses. Explained that this has happened to me numerous times with clavamox. And on at least one occasion dvm gave me a new bottle. They said I must have mis dosed it and said I had to pay for a new bottle. I was very upset to say the least. I know I did not mis dose it I am super careful about that. And whoever I spoke with was confused herself about the dose, she said it was 3ml and I said 1.5 ml 2 x per day and she said 3ml twice per day, lol. The bottle would not have enough to give that dose. It is a 15 ml bottle which should last 5 days at 1.5 ml 2x per day. I said I was not going to pay another $30 for a new bottle when it did not contain the correct amount either due to an error in mixing or evaporation and I would be returning the other two unmixed bottles and just give him the tylosan when that arrived. Just can’t believe this bs!! The other dvm who replaced a bottle for me said sometimes it does evaporate.

If anyone needs this med do not buy the outrageously expensive evaporating clavamox at your dvm, get the generic at revival if you can, I hope I can. Here is a link.

It does not seem to be helping at all so I wonder if I should just try tylosan which is know to firm stool and which I am pretty sure will not evaporate. I can’t find anything about clavamox being used to treat diarrhea or Clostridium D . In fact it says it causes diarrhea as a side effect.


I am not so sure about separating them because this is not like giardia, I don’t believe it is transmittable in the same sense. In other words the cat has to have an inflamed bowel in order to be susceptible. Also they have been exposed to each other for a while and Quinn shows no sign of any problems. It is not possible to keep him in his room, he will bite me more and be even more of the terror he can be, little nutcase that he is😹. It would have to be M who is isolated and he will get more upset etc. I just don’t have the ability right now or the energy with all my health issues and their issues to do it anymore. Dvm had said ok to hav them together after neg test, but test was clearly wrong and then said only it is possible, so I am guessing he is not sure. They are only together still on a limited basis and M is on his own when sleeping etc.

I am not afraid to speak to dvm, it is a matter of getting a hold of them, schedules are different etc. my former dvm was constantly on the phone with you and was a lot more accessible. This one is not. But if all they are going to say is get an us etc and they have no idea/clue, other than for discussing the meds what is the point. At least that part I do have to discuss since there are major issues here about that. It just makes everything that much more stressful and ridiculous.
 
Last edited:

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
2,073
Reaction score
797
Totally understand. I know the feeling and words can't adequately describe the feelings. :(

Interesting that clavamox causes diarrhea. I wonder with the dosing issue this exacerbated the issues. :(

Yes, given all the issues you will have to weigh what is best. (separating vs not). It sounds like you are on the right track to the best solution.

Yes, understand. Some vets are better than others. Maybe another vet or specialist is worth it?

Human stress can have an impact on cats as cats really are sensitive to change, human emotions, etc. I know you are stressed and understandably so. Just try to be as calm and confident and not stressed as possible. Maybe that could help settle his stress and nerves. I know it is easier said than done but it you are cognizant and try maybe it could help.

A lot is going on but it sounds like you are making progress and understanding the issues better. I think you are making progress. I know it is not as much as you (and all of us) would like but I do think you are gaining more knowledge and making progress. Keep up the great work. Let's hope he gets better soon.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #53

juju521

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
27
Reaction score
15
J juju521 - update?
What is the ooze?

My vet has a tendency to write things off. If my cats are eating and using their litter box they seem to think everything is fine. They said that anal sacs leak sometimes (which I"m fully aware of). I clarified that it wasn't liquid and that it was more of a thick cream texture and they said to come in if it happens again and it might be related to that area being sensitive due to the soft stool. I haven't seen it happen again yet, so I'll keep an eye out for it again. I wish I had thought to take a picture when it happened.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #54

juju521

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
27
Reaction score
15
I literally this second just got the test results back for my cats and it came back negative for Giardia!!!! I almost can't believe it! I could've sworn it was going to come back positive for Ryder. He's having mostly solid stool again (although very wet), so improving slowly. He's having 3/4 solid with last 1/4 loose which is so perplexing to me. i just can't understand the solid/loose combo and not sure what to make of it. Emmie has bounced back much quicker and is consistently having good, solid stool.
 

kashmir64

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Apr 9, 2017
Messages
4,346
Reaction score
6,957
Location
Arizona
Yay!!:yess:

I wouldn't be too concerned about a little looseness. Give him probiotics every day and he will tighten up soon.

Edit: If he hasn't tightened up in around 10 days, get him back to the vet.
 

Twylasmom

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
103
Reaction score
220
C. Diff can affect humans, too, and I know for us it is sometimes caused by high dose antibiotics. If the diarrhea doesn't resolve it is sometimes treated with a fecal transplant. My vet's office has done this at least once, one of their clinic cats donated the poop!
 

Meowmee

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
254
Reaction score
215
Totally understand. I know the feeling and words can't adequately describe the feelings. :(

Interesting that clavamox causes diarrhea. I wonder with the dosing issue this exacerbated the issues. :(

Yes, given all the issues you will have to weigh what is best. (separating vs not). It sounds like you are on the right track to the best solution.

Yes, understand. Some vets are better than others. Maybe another vet or specialist is worth it?

Human stress can have an impact on cats as cats really are sensitive to change, human emotions, etc. I know you are stressed and understandably so. Just try to be as calm and confident and not stressed as possible. Maybe that could help settle his stress and nerves. I know it is easier said than done but it you are cognizant and try maybe it could help.

A lot is going on but it sounds like you are making progress and understanding the issues better. I think you are making progress. I know it is not as much as you (and all of us) would like but I do think you are gaining more knowledge and making progress. Keep up the great work. Let's hope he gets better soon.
Thanks...Actually all antibiotics are known to cause runs as a side effect because they kill the good bacteria in your intestines as well as bad. But clavamox, which is the same as augmentin, what I took when Merlin bit me, and which also contains clavulanic acid to enhance the ab action by stopping the bacteria from deactivating the amoxycillin, can cause, I read, even worse runs than usual. And yes if they mixed the wrong dose to start he could have gotten a bit much the first three days and it is very hard to say what is going on, but his runs got worse again. So frustrating.

I am trying my best to keep stress levels down of course. It is not easy. Also Quinn is a very badly behaved little siamese at times and needs frequent verbal reminders etc. I think M enjoys when I tell Quinn to stop what he is doing mostly though lol. M is already a pretty type A stressed cat compared to many I have rescued from outside due in large part to him not being totally tame and I suspect bringing him inside may have helped bring out whatever is going on now if it is indeed an inflammatory or immune type of illness because that type of illness in a cat can be affected by the hormone stress response to something major like being trapped and brought inside after living outside etc. He has calmed a bit in spite of everything and I doubt that my stress is the cause of his diarrhea or even making it get worse. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. I am still at a loss as to why for one day he had very hard dried out poop and then all of a sudden it went back to mush again. Each time it gets harder I have such hope we are finally turning a corner.

I just started him on the tylosan today which needs to be given 3 x a day, ugh. Still pure mush here. I know already fecal transplants are used in both people and cats etc for c diff. I wonder if that is worth a shot too? I have not had time to return the rest of the clavamox yet or talk with dvm office.
 
Last edited:

Meowmee

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
254
Reaction score
215
C. Diff can affect humans, too, and I know for us it is sometimes caused by high dose antibiotics. If the diarrhea doesn't resolve it is sometimes treated with a fecal transplant. My vet's office has done this at least once, one of their clinic cats donated the poop!
I have read about this in the past and found one case someone posted here maybe or by search where a cat was cured by this, also an outdoor cat but he did not do well after and passed a year later. He had already lost a lot of weight from his runs and whatever was causing it.

I don’t know if I can do this for Merlin because I can’t pill him.

 
Last edited:

Meowmee

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
254
Reaction score
215
I literally this second just got the test results back for my cats and it came back negative for Giardia!!!! I almost can't believe it! I could've sworn it was going to come back positive for Ryder. He's having mostly solid stool again (although very wet), so improving slowly. He's having 3/4 solid with last 1/4 loose which is so perplexing to me. i just can't understand the solid/loose combo and not sure what to make of it. Emmie has bounced back much quicker and is consistently having good, solid stool.
That is fantastic they tested neg now! That means recovery is on the way. I think the intestines become inflamed with many of these conditions and it can take time for the runs to resolve. Merlin has had several occasions of hard and soft but he just keeps going back to mush.

When Syb & Wiz tested pos it was on a routine poop test. They had no symptoms but I did. I treated them and next time after one treatment they tested neg.
 
Last edited:
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #60

juju521

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
27
Reaction score
15
That is fantastic they tested neg now! That means recovery is on the way. I think the intestines become inflamed with many of these conditions and it can take time for the runs to resolve. Merlin has had several occasions of hard and soft but he just keeps going back to mush.

When Syb & Wiz tested pos it was on a routine poop test. They had no symptoms but I did. I treated them and next time after one treatment they tested neg.
How long should should I expect the soft stool and diarrhea to continue while he's recovering? Ryder had diarhhea again this morning after a 4 day stretch of solid stool. Trying to get a gauge of how long this should continue before reaching out to my vet again. 10 days per the previous post sounds like a good length of time, but I've read other posts where it took many weeks to get back on track. I'm giving him a Proviable everyday hoping that it'll help firm him up.
 

Latest Posts

Top