Little Rant? (maybe)

[talkingpeanut]

I would just get the booster and call it a day. It's the best way to know for sure that she's protected and it won't harm her.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

I would just get the booster and call it a day. It's the best way to know for sure that she's protected and it won't harm her.

But how can I make sure she doesn't pick anything up in the mean time? Like I said before, she's probably still at risk since no one will do the titer test and not going out isn't an option.

 

[denice]

Have you tried googling puppy socialization classes in your area. I know there are a number of them in this area, even the University Vet school has them. They are normally held indoors and all puppies have to be where they are supposed to be in terms of the puppy series of shots. They aren't obedience classes, it's just playtime for a group of puppies. All of the puppies have an owner there along with the person or people in charge so they also get exposed to other people.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Have you tried googling puppy socialization classes in your area. I know there are a number of them in this area, even the University Vet school has them. They are normally held indoors and all puppies have to be where they are supposed to be in terms of the puppy series of shots. They aren't obedience classes, it's just playtime for a group of puppies. All of the puppies have an owner there along with the person or people in charge so they also get exposed to other people.

Yes, my puppy is in one of those but it isn't just puppies. Older dogs too actually. Almost anyone can join. The coordinator and several other people told me that she needs consistency. Once class and one visit a week isn't going to cut it. We went out today and when we got out of the car, she started barking at every person in sight. It's really becoming a bad habit and a serious problem. I can't wait 3 more weeks until the next booster. That won't be enough for her. And even if I did, I'd have to wait at least a week or 2 after that shot to take her out. Definitely not happening. That's why I asked the vet if they could do the titer test so that I can know if it's safe for her to be out. No one seems to care about my wishes so I have to weight the risk with the benefits. Have a very poorly socialized dog over the small chance of her contracting a serious illness. I don't know. She was never like this when I took her out everyday but people kept breathing down my neck about how serious parvovirus is so I stopped and now this is happening. She NEEDS to be socialized properly because she might become a therapy dog. How can she then if she's not being exposed to situations and being desensitized?

 

[talkingpeanut]

Have you asked your vet what they recommend? Parvo is very serious, but I would assume she has some protection from the vaccines thus far.

In the mean time, can you work on having people come to your home to socialize there?

 

[Graceful-Lily]

The vet said it was fine. There were no concerns with regard to taking her out. So did the puppy trainer. That's why I think the new vets said she needed the additional vaccines. But I still value respect and communication highly. That's why I needed my vet to at least see my side of the situation with Daisy but it was less listening and more telling what they think is right without considering my point of view. And if parvovirus really is so dangerous, I really think she would have been exposed already. My city is filled with so many dogs and she's been all over the place. The incubation period is 3 - 7 days. Even up to two weeks yet she hasn't shown any symptoms at all. Still her normal self.

But there are still people who say it's better to wait. They say she shouldn't meet other dogs until she's 18 weeks but that's too long. I don't have many friends and the little I do have don't own dogs. I even tried puppy ads online saying that I need someone who would like their dog (vaccinated) to socialize with my puppy but I didn't get any responses.

 

[talkingpeanut]

She has mom's antibodies until a certain point. Then you get the vaccines to continue coverage and set her up for life. It's not like she has been unprotected.

Continue as you have been and get her the last booster when it's time.

 

[inkysmom]

My dog still has a cough and changes in his lungs on x ray from getting kennel cough when he was in the shelter before I adopted him. They vaccinated him but he got sick before the shot kicked in. And I didn't realize they didn't vaccinate for Lyme disease and he got lyme last summer. I vaccinated my last dog every year for 12 years and he never got it. I know so many people and my ancient horse that have had chronic lyme and years of major health problems it's not something I'd risk.
Puppies, kittens babies of any type don't have well developed immune systems and are more likely to catch and die from all the awful diseases out there which is why it's extra important to vaccinate them for everything. The main controversy is whether animals really need boosters so much and that's when titers make sense. Puppies don't have immunity after one shot that's why they need the one booster.
The doggy daycare and dog parks around here won't let puppies in until they're four months old and have had all their vaccInations for their own protection
Also so that bigger dogs don't accidentally hurt them and traumatize them.
If your puppy doesn't catch some awful disease from not being vaccinated you have the rest of her life to train and socialize her and all is not lost if you miss this window. Better not to risk her health and safety especially if you're not going to get her all the initial vaccines she needs and keep exposing her to potential diseases. Everyone thought leptospirosis was gone in my city but there's been dozens of cases right in my city the past two years. My dog loves to eat snow and drink from puddles and lots of owners bring their dogs to the park and the daycare with active diarrhea. So do I but he has inflammatory bowel disease and food allergies so always has diarrhea.
I got him at 16 months of age and am his 3rd home. He was an anxious basket case who had no manners, high prey drive, jumped on people, was mouthy, escaped and ran away all the time and wasn't at all socualized. The shelter staff said he coukdnt make it thriugh 20 minutes of an obedience class and they couldnt let him loose in the run without leaving a long lead on him because he was impossible to catch. He was so freaked by the shelter he had to be kept on a whole separate floor. He lunged, jumped on and barked at and growled at everyone, especially tall men and anyone with hats. He stayed up all night at first shaking whenever a car or truck went by because he wasn't used to city noises. He threw himself on other dogs to wrestle and tried to hump every dog he met with no meeting or manners and got attacked a bunch of times. He had severe separation anxiety and destroyed my apartment took out a window ac, broke a screen and almost jumped out a 3rd floor window after me. While waiting for a behaviorist appointment I had to take him everywhere and leave the ac on in the car and still had someone call the police on me. He had a bad reaction to 3 different separation anxiety meds, they made him aggressive and attack dogs at the park 12 hours after they should have worn off. Chewed 5 leashes and used to jump out of my car and jump fences and open gates and take off and I'd have to catch him. Could take an hour to catch him in the dog park every day. I'd have to literally leave and drive away.
Nightmare dog who wasn't socialized as a puppy, right? Too late, will never be right?
Wrong. One year later, at 2 and a half, he's a therapy dog and I bring him to work with me and restaurants and bars. He politely lets people pet him and will barely lick their hands and people love him. He's very gentle with female dogs and puppies and politely sniffs and greets every new dog who goes to the park. He only plays with his confirmed friends. He frequently stays with me or wants me to play fetch or tug. He comes running when I call him and we've even walked to the car or a few blocks home at night with him loose and staying by my side. He's polite with people and other dogs. Doesn't jump, never mouthy, takes food from your hand very gently and knows tons of tricks like roll all the way over from one side to another, bow, give paw and other paw, dance, back up and tons of others. Automatically sits at each door when we get home and waits while walking on the stairs leashed. Makes friends with all little dogs even if they hate all big dogs. Is gentle with my cats.
At 16 months I got him and started with a completely untrained, anxious unsocialized dog. He doesn't bark at people anymore and doesn't lunge at bikes or skateboards either. And he was scary and at 75 pounds almost dragged me into the street with him and knocked a bicyclist down under an oncoming truck once, and us with it. Talk about dangerous. People weren't impressed when he'd lunge and jump on their chests barking and growing right in their faces dragging me with him either. It was scary for a while. Or when he chewed his leash and jumped out of my car and dashed right in front of a car when I opened my door once and I had to chase him a few blocks in the city terrified he'd be killed right in front of me. He saw two dogs on the sidewalk and ran away to meet them which is where I caught him doing a three way butt sniff with the 2 leashed dogs and their pissed off looking owner. I was ready to kill him and had no leash so dragged him back by his collar all the way. I'd had him only a month then. He never does that now and waits in the car even if I leave the doors open.

You'll be fine. You've already got more of a head start than I did. Did the same thing with my last awesome dog who I got at 10 months who was dog aggressive, also completely untrained and I was his 3rd home. But that dog could be loose and never ran away and never left my side for the 12 years I had him. I could call him off anything.

 

[kashmir64]

I've had three dogs who had Parvo. My Dalmatian was due for his final shot when he got a really bad case of it. He was in the hospital for a week. My Beagle got it when he was a year old. Actually, that's why I took him, the owner had already shot her other dog who had it, and was going to take him out and shoot him too.
I vaccinate every year. We have wild dogs, coyotes and wolves that run my property often. There is no telling what my dogs could pick up. I do it myself and it only costs $10 for the shot. This is much cheaper than either taking a risk or having a serious disease.
BTW, the old owner of the beagle brought it in when her son accidentally stepped in some poop in the park. Wiped off his shoe in the grass, and never even thought about bringing home something.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Thank you both for your contribution to the topic but I've already made up my mind. Daisy's personality also doesn't fit well for a therapy dog so she most likely will not qualify anyway.

 

[inkysmom]

Oh that's too bad. Keep in mind that their personalities can evolve and change as they grow and mature. My dog is now an awesome therapy dog but was a basket case a year ago. Once they're past puppyhood and adolescence you see their true nature, she may be a very good solid citizen by the time she's 2 or 3 and you may want to reconsider.
I hope you've made up your mind regarding her health considering all the stories and research links on here plus a vet's opinion that you do trust. Just wishing for the best for you both!

 

[Graceful-Lily]

She is a Shih Tzu with a little bit of Maltese but she has a genetic mutation. It's commonly called prapso. For example, I'd say she's a prapso Shih Tzu. It causes them to mature faster (she had almost all milk teeth by 4 weeks old), rambunctious personalities, increased intelligence (knew how to fetch at 4 weeks old), hair doesn't grow normally (single coated). So she's naturally harder to control. We've had some dominance issues because of it. I doubt she'll change from this since it is genetic. Trying to control her is a nightmare and she's not as calm as other shih tzu puppies her age.

Here is an article that explains it nicely:
Shih Tzu Prapso Puppies: What are they?

She looks a lot like a Tibetan Spaniel because of it but like I said, difficult to control her yet easy to train.

 

[talkingpeanut]

What did you decide about her health care?

 

[Graceful-Lily]

After several visits to the dog park and careful consideration, I've decided to hold off on the last vaccine for now as I am still searching for a veterinarian that checks all the boxes. It might not be possible and maybe I have too many expectation but I need a vet that will listen to me and I've yet to find one that does.

 

[inkysmom]

I've only had large 75 pound dogs that were and are very intelligent and rambunctious and also defiant and I got them much older than you, and way after the ideal socialization window. Never did any genetic testing. Training usually just takes consistency, patience and time. Of course there's always exceptions.
I've had many situations where I felt vets didn't really listen to me either and i know that's frustrating. But I've had my current dog sick twice now from not enough vaccinations. Not worth the risk. Titers don't make sense for a puppy since they don't have basic immunity yet. Since she was weaned too early she might not have gotten much or any immunity from her mom since she didn't get enough nursing. It's sad to risk your puppy's health, and the health of every other dog you expose her to because you've had bad experiences with vets. Like shooting yourself in the foot to spite someone else, except it's your innocent puppy and who knows how many other dogs that get put at risk.
Best of luck though.

 

[inkysmom]

The article just said prapsos mature faster and are very smart and this could go back to ancient original breeding due to a pekingese. Didn't say those pups are any more defiant or less healthy or anything bad, just smarter and develop faster. Many dogs go through a defiance phase as puppies and adolescents that's pretty normal. They can still be very mellow and awesome for anything as mature adults, too tough to predict at this young age.

 

[arouetta]

After several visits to the dog park and careful consideration, I've decided to hold off on the last vaccine for now as I am still searching for a veterinarian that checks all the boxes. It might not be possible and maybe I have too many expectation but I need a vet that will listen to me and I've yet to find one that does.

I don't think you will find a vet that will agree with you. I often bring in the human example, and it fits here too. You are basically asking a pediatrician to agree that your child doesn't need vaccines against measles and whooping cough, deadly diseases that are still around. It's the same thing. A reputable vet is not going to agree that an unvaccinated puppy being exposed to the outdoors and other dogs is better off without having vaccinations to prevent picking up those diseases. A reputable vet is not going to agree that vaccines are going to cause more damage than the diseases themselves.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Didn't think anyone was going to respond to this thread again. I'm not even sure what to say. I'm not even sure what you are all trying to say? Am I then irresponsible for my decisions? Daisy is still fine and going strong everyday. I'm only asking for clarification.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

I've only had large 75 pound dogs that were and are very intelligent and rambunctious and also defiant and I got them much older than you, and way after the ideal socialization window. Never did any genetic testing. Training usually just takes consistency, patience and time. Of course there's always exceptions.
I've had many situations where I felt vets didn't really listen to me either and i know that's frustrating. But I've had my current dog sick twice now from not enough vaccinations. Not worth the risk. Titers don't make sense for a puppy since they don't have basic immunity yet. Since she was weaned too early she might not have gotten much or any immunity from her mom since she didn't get enough nursing. It's sad to risk your puppy's health, and the health of every other dog you expose her to because you've had bad experiences with vets. Like shooting yourself in the foot to spite someone else, except it's your innocent puppy and who knows how many other dogs that get put at risk.
Best of luck though.

I'm curious as to what ailment your dog contracted from not vaccinating enough. And I'm also curious as to how I'm putting my puppy at risk and other dogs? Exactly where would this take place and what ailments? I just don't understand because she's literally been everywhere and is still very much vibrant and healthy.

You also can't shame me for shying away from vets and not having my puppy vaccinated because of bad experiences. I have severe anxiety when it comes to certain interactions with people and trust is everything for me. Especially when they are looking after the loves of my life. Plus, it happened twice with me which has added onto what anxiety I was already feeling.

 

[arouetta]

Didn't think anyone was going to respond to this thread again. I'm not even sure what to say. I'm not even sure what you are all trying to say? Am I then irresponsible for my decisions? Daisy is still fine and going strong everyday. I'm only asking for clarification.

I personally think you are wrong and that Daisy is the one that will pay the price eventually. It's literally the same thing as refusing the MMR shot for your child based on the false propaganda of what that shot supposedly causes, saying since your child made it through second grade without catching measles you did the right thing, and then the child pays the price when a measles outbreak hits the school in fourth grade. Vaccines save lives. Period.

Vaccines exist because the diseases they stop are so horrible and so deadly they need to be eradicated. And getting your child/puppy vaccinated also protects others, the ones that simply *can't* be vaccinated due to allergies. Vaccination rates have to be in the high 90s percent to establish "herd immunity", meaning there's just not enough hosts to get someone not vaccinated sick. Once that rate starts dropping because people/animals that *can* be vaccinated aren't, diseases come back. I'm sure you've heard of the measles outbreaks and the whooping cough outbreaks due to the vaccination rates getting low. It's a social contract, a part of living in society, you do what you can to protect others.

The simple fact that you've had two vets tell you that your puppy needs to be vaccinated should be a clear neon sign that you are choosing the exact wrong thing if you want to protect your puppy's health.

Could you find a vet that believes that exposure to the regular disease is better than a vaccination against it? I suppose it's possible, there are human doctors that will tout the mythical wrongs of vaccines and would rather kids get their antibodies the "natural" way by catching the full-blown version and hoping they survive. But is such a stance medically sound? Nope.

Vaccines save lives. Your puppy can't protect herself in this matter, she is completely dependent on you to do the right thing.

And there was a chance encounter I had years ago that shows the ridiculousness of the anti-vaxxers movement and how they will twist everything to make vaccines the work of the devil. My daughter was four when fraudulent study on MMR and autism came out. But no one then knew it was a work of fiction. Fiction by a doctor that wanted expensive additional tests to become standard so he could make money providing those tests. No one knew it back then, parents wanted something to blame, and Bettelheim's accusations were only just fading away so many people still blamed the parents. So that became the big thing to blame. My daughter's case though was so severe there were a lot of symptoms prior to her being vaccinated, and being vaccinated did not make her worse. When I said the MMR could not be the cause, someone asked if she got the HepB at birth. A vaccine never once tied to autism. Yes she did, and the woman went on a fit about how clearly that vaccine was to blame. That illustrates the ridiculousness, that someone could believe that vaccines are so wrong that they would blame a vaccine that is tied to nothing as a cause of autism since the MMR belief could not apply to the situation.