Little Rant? (maybe)

[Willowy]

Yeah, it's sort of like the Mommy Wars. No matter what you do, some people won't like it. If you choose to vaccinate the anti-vaxxers will judge you. That's why you need to be firm in what you choose to do. It's a good idea to be able to explain WHY you choose what you do, to yourself and others.

"Holistic" is generally misused. Here's the definition: "characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the physical symptoms of a disease." Holistic is great! But it's too often used to mean stuff like being against anything modern :/.

I managed to reason my way out of believing in homeopathy a long time ago. A homeopathic solution is so diluted to not even a molecule of the original substance remains. They say that it imprints a memory of the substance on the water, if you shake it just right. That didn't make sense to me, not a bit. If water can retain memories, why does that water retain that memory and not the memory of the plant it rushed past in the river? Why doesn't it retain the memory of the manure that got pumped into the river? Haha, I so wanted to believe in stuff like that but I just couldn't after that.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Yeah, it's sort of like the Mommy Wars. No matter what you do, some people won't like it. If you choose to vaccinate the anti-vaxxers will judge you. That's why you need to be firm in what you choose to do. It's a good idea to be able to explain WHY you choose what you do, to yourself and others.

"Holistic" is generally misused. Here's the definition: "characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the physical symptoms of a disease." Holistic is great! But it's too often used to mean stuff like being against anything modern :/.

I managed to reason my way out of believing in homeopathy a long time ago. A homeopathic solution is so diluted to not even a molecule of the original substance remains. They say that it imprints a memory of the substance on the water, if you shake it just right. That didn't make sense to me, not a bit. If water can retain memories, why does that water retain that memory and not the memory of the plant it rushed past in the river? Why doesn't it retain the memory of the manure that got pumped into the river? Haha, I so wanted to believe in stuff like that but I just couldn't after that.

That's where it gets tricky. With definitions and whatnot. I just call them natural remedies. The ONLY ones I use are oregano oil (and a few other essential oils), and natural spices (turmeric, ginger powder, garlic powder). And even then, because of the hypocondria, I'd be in the doctor's office in a heartbeat. I don't crazy obsess over it to the point where I think it can heal everything under the sun. But at the same time, even when I do state my points, people have a hard time believing me. They just don't have the same faith in certain things as I do. What I mostly use them for is bacteria and viruses. Anything outside of that spectrum will most likely be treated with traditional medicine. I hope this makes sense. I'm not even sure if I'm making sense.

 

[talkingpeanut]

You make perfect sense! I will get you some sources as soon as I'm at my computer.

My view is that vaccines are the foundation for your cats health when giving the kitten series, and same for puppies. After that, I'm not inclined to vaccinate.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

You make perfect sense! I will get you some sources as soon as I'm at my computer.

My view is that vaccines are the foundation for your cats health when giving the kitten series, and same for puppies. After that, I'm not inclined to vaccinate.

Okay, thank you. I understand what you mean. That's why I wished my vet would just let me have the titer test done. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere. It was just a simple thing, I'm so surprised. It's my money, my choice if I want the titer test done and I want it but she's telling me nonsense. She didn't even say "bye" either. She just hung up the phone. And if she'd just let me have it done and it came up negative then I'd be more comfortable giving her the last parvovirus vaccination.

 

[Willowy]

Not all vets are great. Keep trying, I'm sure you can find a vet you like .

I'm all for natural remedies when possible too! But you need to know when they won't work. And keep in mind that herbal remedies can be just as dangerous as any prescrption med.

 

[talkingpeanut]

Okay, thank you. I understand what you mean. That's why I wished my vet would just let me have the titer test done. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere. It was just a simple thing, I'm so surprised. It's my money, my choice if I want the titer test done and I want it but she's telling me nonsense. She didn't even say "bye" either. She just hung up the phone. And if she'd just let me have it done and it came up negative then I'd be more comfortable giving her the last parvovirus vaccination.

You can assume that puppies and kittens need the core vaccines. They won't be over vaccinated and may have a false positive from mom's milk anyway.

 

[arouetta]

It's not so much a database. I just call different vets in a particular region but there's hardly any cases for parvovirus that they know of.

Don't do that. Just don't.

Several years ago my mom had 5 cats. While my parents were gone, one started acting really funny and foaming at the mouth and my sister (then a young teenager) locked her in the bathroom. She had a litter box and water in there, so she was not denied anything, nothing in there would have triggered her death. My parents got home just a few hours later, opened the door and she was dead.

Because my sister had seen her foaming at the mouth the vet did a necropsy to make sure it wasn't rabies. Turned out to be FIP. My parents had the other 4 cats tested, 3 were positive. The vet, and every other vet in the area, refused to order the FIP vaccine. The reasoning is that FIP was non-existent in the area so the vet would lose hundreds if not thousands of dollars by having to buy in bulk for one cat. I was on the other side of the country, but I went off. My mother let her cats outside when they wanted. They live in a rural area, everyone else in the area did the same thing. And let's not talk about the feral population; evergreen forest plus hardly any population plus chipmunks and wild birds meant a huge, uncontrolled population. I knew that my mother's cats were simply the tip of a huge, honking iceberg.

In less than two years it went from non-existent to epidemic, as cats that normally would not have had their deaths looked into in the past were formally diagnosed.

My point - parvo could easily be an enormous problem in your area but just not "officially" found yet. Just like FIP was in my mother's area.

Vaccines are good. They really are. Look into the facts, not the propaganda. Everyone has an immune system. Viruses imprint on the immune system, if you are lucky enough to survive the initial exposure. The imprinting means that in future exposures, the viruses will be destroyed before they hit a high enough level to make you sick. You can expose yourself to the full-strength versions of whooping cough or measles and hope you survive the encounter. Or you can expose yourself to a weakened version that will make you feel a little bad but provides the imprint so you never will succumb to the full-strength versions. On top of that, the immune system is always looking for a fight. You can get vaccines and give it something to fight, or it can pick out random proteins and go fight those, leading to allergies and auto-immune disorders. Finally, you having that nice little imprint means the person next to you who can't be vaccinated is protected by you, aka herd immunity. So not only are you risking killing yourself by waiting for the full-strength versions, you're risking killing the person next to you.

[Oh, and my daughter very clearly had autism an entire year prior to her first MMR and was diagnosed right when the bogus MMR study was published. So yeah, I read up on vaccines very carefully.]

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Not all vets are great. Keep trying, I'm sure you can find a vet you like .

I'm all for natural remedies when possible too! But you need to know when they won't work. And keep in mind that herbal remedies can be just as dangerous as any prescrption med.

Right. For example, cancer, diabetes, potentially life threatening ailments need a medical professional.

 

[miagi's_mommy]

When I've adopted puppies, I make sure they have 3 parvo/distemper shots. But they have to be spaced out. I don't consider it over vaccinating. It's for my peace of mind and their protection. Parvo may not be bad where you are, but it is here and I refuse to risk it.

Most vet care is expensive, unfortunately. My vet has low cost shots sometimes for dogs and cats (only $15, no exam fee). But it was almost $400 to have our dog's ears cleaned. They had to sedate her and they were badly infected from the neglect she suffered before we adopted her. They also charged $500 for my dog to have a lump (benign) removed on her foot.

But I wouldn't ever change my vet... him and his staff are amazing. Angel never has a fit there, she is super calm when he examines her. It was $55 for her leukemia/distemper shot and rabies. But that was for the exam the shots were basically free. She's due again in July for her leukemia/distemper and he made the rabies for 2 years. After this shot she should get it 2 years from then. He doesn't over vaccinate so that's why I am super comfortable with his practice and extra expense. Luckily they take payments. I know how off putting an expensive vet (or even human dr!) can be though.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Don't do that. Just don't.

Several years ago my mom had 5 cats. While my parents were gone, one started acting really funny and foaming at the mouth and my sister (then a young teenager) locked her in the bathroom. She had a litter box and water in there, so she was not denied anything, nothing in there would have triggered her death. My parents got home just a few hours later, opened the door and she was dead.

Because my sister had seen her foaming at the mouth the vet did a necropsy to make sure it wasn't rabies. Turned out to be FIP. My parents had the other 4 cats tested, 3 were positive. The vet, and every other vet in the area, refused to order the FIP vaccine. The reasoning is that FIP was non-existent in the area so the vet would lose hundreds if not thousands of dollars by having to buy in bulk for one cat. I was on the other side of the country, but I went off. My mother let her cats outside when they wanted. They live in a rural area, everyone else in the area did the same thing. And let's not talk about the feral population; evergreen forest plus hardly any population plus chipmunks and wild birds meant a huge, uncontrolled population. I knew that my mother's cats were simply the tip of a huge, honking iceberg.

In less than two years it went from non-existent to epidemic, as cats that normally would not have had their deaths looked into in the past were formally diagnosed.

My point - parvo could easily be an enormous problem in your area but just not "officially" found yet. Just like FIP was in my mother's area.

Vaccines are good. They really are. Look into the facts, not the propaganda. Everyone has an immune system. Viruses imprint on the immune system, if you are lucky enough to survive the initial exposure. The imprinting means that in future exposures, the viruses will be destroyed before they hit a high enough level to make you sick. You can expose yourself to the full-strength versions of whooping cough or measles and hope you survive the encounter. Or you can expose yourself to a weakened version that will make you feel a little bad but provides the imprint so you never will succumb to the full-strength versions. On top of that, the immune system is always looking for a fight. You can get vaccines and give it something to fight, or it can pick out random proteins and go fight those, leading to allergies and auto-immune disorders. Finally, you having that nice little imprint means the person next to you who can't be vaccinated is protected by you, aka herd immunity. So not only are you risking killing yourself by waiting for the full-strength versions, you're risking killing the person next to you.

[Oh, and my daughter very clearly had autism an entire year prior to her first MMR and was diagnosed right when the bogus MMR study was published. So yeah, I read up on vaccines very carefully.]

OK. Thanks for the information.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

When I've adopted puppies, I make sure they have 3 parvo/distemper shots. But they have to be spaced out. I don't consider it over vaccinating. It's for my peace of mind and their protection. Parvo may not be bad where you are, but it is here and I refuse to risk it.

Most vet care is expensive, unfortunately. My vet has low cost shots sometimes for dogs and cats (only $15, no exam fee). But it was almost $400 to have our dog's ears cleaned. They had to sedate her and they were badly infected from the neglect she suffered before we adopted her. They also charged $500 for my dog to have a lump (benign) removed on her foot.

But I wouldn't ever change my vet... him and his staff are amazing. Angel never has a fit there, she is super calm when he examines her. It was $55 for her leukemia/distemper shot and rabies. But that was for the exam the shots were basically free. She's due again in July for her leukemia/distemper and he made the rabies for 2 years. After this shot she should get it 2 years from then. He doesn't over vaccinate so that's why I am super comfortable with his practice and extra expense. Luckily they take payments. I know how off putting an expensive vet (or even human dr!) can be though.

That's fortunate for you. I've been to several different vets in the past few years. It's always a challenge. Especially when I get a new pet. The new vet I went to with my puppy also told me that she needs flea and tick protection. I had the treatment done but it drove Daisy mad! She kept scratching at the site where it was applied and now her hair is patchy in that spot. Lots of it fell out. I can see skin now. The vet also told me that if she's going outside, she needs more than the core vaccines but I didn't feel comfortable with that. Of course, I was scared and did it anyway.

But Daisy has been all over the place from such a young age. Wouldn't she have gotten parvovirus already if she did come into contact with it? It's been a month since she's been out and about like this. Since she turned 8 weeks I've been doing this and Monday, she'll be 13 weeks. Also, when I bring up the parvovirus risk with my dog trainer and vets, no one seems as concerned as I am which is strange. Every time people ask me how old she is and I tell them, it stops there. No one has ever said, "Well, aren't you worried about her getting sick?" Hmmm...

 

[talkingpeanut]

No, she would get the virus if she were exposed at any point. It's possible that she hasn't been yet. It's not worth the risk.

 

[donutte]

My beagle Brandy got Parvo back in 2002. She was 9 years old, and not around any other dogs other than the ones in our home, so to this day, I have no idea how she got it. It literally looked like someone was murdered in our kitchen for all the pooping of blood she'd been doing. I'm amazed our other dogs didn't get it. I just know she had to stay at the vet (quarantined) for over a week. She survived it, but it was a very expensive experience, and one I for sure don't would not want to relive.

We got her as a puppy from someone. I think the only shots she got were the law-mandated ones, and we didn't take our dogs for regular vet visits then.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

No, she would get the virus if she were exposed at any point. It's possible that she hasn't been yet. It's not worth the risk.

I see...
Do you know anything about home titer kits? I saw one online but was skeptical because I'm not sure how you'd take a blood sample from your own animal.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

My beagle Brandy got Parvo back in 2002. She was 9 years old, and not around any other dogs other than the ones in our home, so to this day, I have no idea how she got it. It literally looked like someone was murdered in our kitchen for all the pooping of blood she'd been doing. I'm amazed our other dogs didn't get it. I just know she had to stay at the vet (quarantined) for over a week. She survived it, but it was a very expensive experience, and one I for sure don't would not want to relive.

We got her as a puppy from someone. I think the only shots she got were the law-mandated ones, and we didn't take our dogs for regular vet visits then.

Oh, that's awful. It's possible that it traveled on a fly maybe. I've heard of that happening.

 

[Willowy]

Maybe there's a high vaccination rate in your area. And probably most people assume you've vaccinated her so there's no reason for them to mention being worried about it.

Even in the Dogs Naturally information, there's one guy (Dr Schultz? I think) who recommmends making sure they get a booster after 16 weeks and another at a year, after that he doesn't recommend any more vaccines. That ought to confer long-lasting immunity, and should be a safe vaccine protocol.

It's good to be somewhat skeptical---for instance, there's NO evidence that vaccines need to be given yearly. That's purely something the vaccine companies pulled out of the air. There's no reason a cat's or dog's body will "forget" their immunity any more than humans do, and humans don't get an MMR shot every year (the flu shot is given yearly because it's a different strain every year). But baby vaccines are pretty important.

 

[talkingpeanut]

You don't need to titer a puppy, and I certainly wouldn't try on my own. She needs the puppy series. When she is an adult, you can titer to see if she needs any boosters. She is a puppy. She has no immunities and cannot be over vaccinated at this point.

Here are some sources that I would trust:
Canine Parvovirus
First-Year Puppy Vaccinations; A Complete Guide
4 Essential Puppy Shots

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Maybe there's a high vaccination rate in your area. And probably most people assume you've vaccinated her so there's no reason for them to mention being worried about it.

Even in the Dogs Naturally information, there's one guy (Dr Schultz? I think) who recommmends making sure they get a booster after 16 weeks and another at a year, after that he doesn't recommend any more vaccines. That ought to confer long-lasting immunity, and should be a safe vaccine protocol.

It's good to be somewhat skeptical---for instance, there's NO evidence that vaccines need to be given yearly. That's purely something the vaccine companies pulled out of the air. There's no reason a cat's or dog's body will "forget" their immunity any more than humans do, and humans don't get an MMR shot every year (the flu shot is given yearly because it's a different strain every year). But baby vaccines are pretty important.

Hmmm... that's a good point. Is it possible that the last vaccine worked? She didn't nurse for long as far as I'm concerned. The lady I got her from knew absolutely nothing about dogs and weaned her really early so that she could sell the puppies off early. It was wrong, I know, but I've been very careful with socializing her and she's doing very well. She even knows bite inhabiting really well. I tough her to have a soft mouth and she does.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

You don't need to titer a puppy, and I certainly wouldn't try on my own. She needs the puppy series. When she is an adult, you can titer to see if she needs any boosters. She is a puppy. She has no immunities and cannot be over vaccinated at this point.

Here are some sources that I would trust:
Canine Parvovirus
First-Year Puppy Vaccinations; A Complete Guide
4 Essential Puppy Shots

Thanks for these. I will start reading them now. But doesn't one shot usually give full immunity? What's with the booster at one year and later on?

 

[arouetta]

I'm all for natural remedies when possible too! But you need to know when they won't work. And keep in mind that herbal remedies can be just as dangerous as any prescrption med.

Right. For example, cancer, diabetes, potentially life threatening ailments need a medical professional.

The biggest problem with these "natural" remedies is that they are regulated as food, not as medicine, by the FDA. There was a big push in the 90s to regulate them as medicines, but the companies pushed back with scare commercials claiming that the FDA wanted to make your multi-vitamin prescription only. The public got scared, they pushed on their congressmen, Congress got involved and the FDA requested regulations failed.

That has caused a myriad of problems, but there are three big ones.

First, as long as they don't actually make a firm medical claim, they can roundabout suggest all they want. I can use my Sodastream to bottle carbonated water and say it bolsters the body's metabolism (water does) and that can decrease your belly fat and sell it for $49.99 a bottle. Since I said "can" and since I didn't say "will" or quote statistics, the FDA can't do a thing even though my product is completely ineffective. Cheerios have more FDA medical oversight than your herbal remedies that are supposed to actually affect your health, and that's pretty sad.

Second, because the food regulations aren't as solid, there's nothing to really ensure that what they say is in the ingredients is what is really there, or what they don't list isn't there. There's been cases of herbal remedies being tested and oops, we didn't realize how high the arsenic level was in it. Our bad, we'll fix it....somehow. There's been cases of herbal remedies not having the key ingredient or not having as much as claimed. One scientist was checking out a vitamin store, saw a very pregnant woman buying a tea that was being marketed as a supplement to help a healthy pregnancy, bought some himself and had it tested. Of the nine ingredients found by the testing, five are known to cause birth defects. Real safe tea for the kid...not. There was one case of a woman showing up at her doctor's with all the symptoms of overactive thyroid, and it turned out the herbal supplement she was taking to boost her energy had the active ingredient in Synthroid...at 3 times the max FDA safe level. Yeah, when these things are officially found, the herbal supplement companies have to fix them, but there's no pre-emptive testing to ensure things are as labeled. Plus even when you do have a company that says what's really in it, the method they use to create the pills or whatever can actually cause pills so hard you pass them straight through without getting the benefit.

Third, even if you get what's claimed, no one's done the studies to figure out safe dosages, side effects and interactions. So it might concentrate your blood thinner, making you hemorrhage, or it might dilute the effect, giving you a blood clot. And how much valerian root is really safe, after all? And what happens if you listen to your friend and take St. Johns Wort on top of your SSRI since the SSRI isn't strong enough....can we say serotonin syndrome? And what happens when you mix your energy supplement herbal mix with your herbal mix that encourages hair growth, since they are both untested?

If the FDA could regulate herbal remedies as medicines and not food it would be less of a crapshoot, as you would know what you are getting, what you're not getting, and standardized dosing and known side effects. But that also means that many of the claims they make now would utterly vanish, as they know doing testing would prove the claims bogus.