Little Rant? (maybe)

[haleyds]

The only vaccine I really, really agree with giving puppies is the parvo shot. That's just because I have lost many of stray rescues to it because they have already contracted it before I even get them to the vet. It's ramped here in NC. But that being said, I have a wonderful vet who doesn't push anything. She has saved countless puppies from the virus one of which being one of my resident dogs, for under whatever budget you set. She will try her hardest to save them with what she has.
Also worming is always a good choice with babies and the rabies vaccine when they're older. Other than that I don't really "do" the whole shots thing for dogs. Usually they don't need to be done and actually can do more harm than good.

 

[Willowy]

actually can do more harm than good

Here's the thing though---there's no proof of that. I used to believe that too, but it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Dogs are exposed to viruses every single day; exposing them to the killed or weakened viruses in a vaccine isn't going to be any different. Giving vaccines annually is unnecessary. . .but in most cases not dangerous.

Canine distemper is a huge vaccine success story.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

"Dogs are exposed to viruses every single day; exposing them to the killed or weakened viruses in a vaccine isn't going to be any different."


Could you please elaborate on this statement?

 

[Willowy]

A vaccine is a killed or weakened virus. It trains the body to fight that virus without the risk of causing the disease. It's like a mother cat bringing her kittens a wounded mouse to train them to kill mice. The immune system is capable of handling that.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

So the vaccines Daisy received so far have had no effect on her whatsoever?

I will take a picture of the documents.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Here it is:

 

[Willowy]

That's the problem with vaccinating young puppies. Maternal antibodies may be present, they may not, no way to know (maybe someday someone will develop a test for that). That's why a series is given---to give the greatest chance of conferring immunity as soon as possible after the maternal antibodies have worn off. That's why it's important for the last one to be given after 16 weeks---you can be pretty sure most maternal antibodies are gone by then.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

That's the problem with vaccinating young puppies. Maternal antibodies may be present, they may not, no way to know (maybe someday someone will develop a test for that). That's why a series is given---to give the greatest chance of conferring immunity as soon as possible after the maternal antibodies have worn off. That's why it's important for the last one to be given after 16 weeks---you can be pretty sure most maternal antibodies are gone by then.

I see. All I know is that I'm not going back to that vet with her. I felt so cornered. I'll call around tomorrow to see if I can find one that will comply with me.

 

[Willowy]

FWIW, I think an 8wk-12wk-16wk vaccine schedule is very reasonable. Some vets want to start at 6 weeks, some want to do 4 or 5 shots instead of 3. . .anyway I don't think the vet was taking undue advantage. I would have skipped the bordetella unless I was going to board the pup but it's not unreasonable either.

It is important to find a vet who listens to you, though. Without that communication it's hard to feel good about the care they give. I hope you can find the right vet for you without too much trouble .

 

[arouetta]

Thanks for these. I will start reading them now. But doesn't one shot usually give full immunity? What's with the booster at one year and later on?

I don't know of studies involving dogs and vaccines, but I do know the human statistics. When a baby has a series of shots, the first one has a 95% chance of triggering immunity through imprinting on the immune system. The 5% is why the rest of the series are done; by the end of the series 99% of children who have had the entire series are immune. Herd immunity protects the last 1% and those who cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason.

Now immunity does wane over the years. It was first realized in measles, I think, then they found it in the rest of the big kid viruses. It's not that a weakened or dead strain was used. Even if you have full-blown measles as a child the immunity will still wane. That's because in the old days people were re-infected over and over and over, keeping the immunity up. Now we go for decades between exposure and the immune system tends to forget when it doesn't have to fight a particular virus in 20 or 30 years. That's why a lot of colleges do require boosters.

But yeah, a booster every year is probably not needed, even in an animal whose metabolism is really ramped up in comparison to our own. However from what I've learned of humans and vaccines, I'm not going to say that a booster is never needed.

Willowy is right about the flu vaccine though - it's needed every year because there's a lot of different flu virus varieties. I would love to have one of the researchers to go to a casino with me or manage my stock portfolio though, because before flu season hits they calculate the odds and figure out which three strains are going to be the dominant strains many months later, since it takes months to grow the vaccines in the eggs. They are usually right, very very rare that one or two of the grown strains end up not being the dominant ones. And for those that love trivia, I found out two little factoids about the flu and immunity. First, it doesn't matter if melting permafrost releases the 1919 flu, because newer strains we've all been exposed to have some of the same genetic material. So we all have a partial immunity already and won't get near as sick. Second, those who have gotten their flu shot every year (unlike me) will have partial immunity when the feared avian flu virus, H something N something, finally gets the mutation that will enable it to jump from human to human easily, creating a pandemic. That is because those different three dominant strains that change from year to year do share some genetic material, and getting all those viral imprints will convey partial immunity.

 

[denice]

My beagle Brandy got Parvo back in 2002. She was 9 years old, and not around any other dogs other than the ones in our home, so to this day, I have no idea how she got it. It literally looked like someone was murdered in our kitchen for all the pooping of blood she'd been doing. I'm amazed our other dogs didn't get it. I just know she had to stay at the vet (quarantined) for over a week. She survived it, but it was a very expensive experience, and one I for sure don't would not want to relive.

We got her as a puppy from someone. I think the only shots she got were the law-mandated ones, and we didn't take our dogs for regular vet visits then.

The canine parvo virus is in the same family as feline panleuk, I don't know where the name feline distemper came from. Feline panleuk is not a distemper type virus it is a parvo type virus. Theoretically it can survive in the environment for up to a year and is shed in the feces of dogs who have it, it then survives in the soil. I am assuming it cannot survive the freezing in winter. We can then bring it into our home on our shoes.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Would it make sense to wait an extra 2 weeks before giving her the last shot? So... Daisy would be 18 weeks instead of 16 weeks. Just to make sure that the material antibodies are weak.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

I called my old vet and they offered to do the titer test for $117.90 (didn't ask me questions) vs the new one that was going to charge me $150+. I still feel like I need to get it done. I want to at least know what her blood is saying and obviously, if she's not protected, than I'll have the last vaccination done. Plus, with all her adventures outside, I just think a titer test would make sense. And I'd also like to know if all the other vaccines worked as well.

 

[talkingpeanut]

You'll need to wait a certain amount of time after the last vaccine for an accurate reading. Your vet should be able to advise.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

You'll need to wait a certain amount of time after the last vaccine for an accurate reading. Your vet should be able to advise.

Yes, I've been told. It's about 10 days to 3 weeks I believe.

 

[talkingpeanut]

Well, which date does your vet recommend? That's quite a range.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

They said 2 weeks after the last vaccination and if I suspect any parvovirus in Daisy, they want to do it as soon as possible. But like I said before, I haven't seen any symptoms. She will be 13 weeks on Monday so when she is 14 weeks, I'll wait a few days after that to get her tested.

 

[Mother Dragon]

These are all sources from a holistic site that is intended to refute traditional medicine.

I used to work in the alternative medicine field, and fully understand how they use scare tactics. They are scaring you on purpose.

It upsets me when people feel they are keeping themselves or their pets safe when they are actually endangering them. The vast majority of dogs who get parvo die a horrible death.

Do your own research, but also make sure you are using neutral sources. The one source above absolutely has an agenda.

Remember that, as with human vaccines, you're affecting not only your pet but you're endangering the pets of others by not vaccinating. And if your pet does get rabies, it might not show symptoms for a very long time. In humans it can lie dormant for up to ten years. There's no cure for either pets or humans. The survival rate is about 0.001%, if that. I believe only one person is known to have survived rabies. If your pet bites you and is undiagnosed, you could die, too.

If these diseases weren't usually fatal, we wouldn't have developed vaccines against them.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Remember that, as with human vaccines, you're affecting not only your pet but you're endangering the pets of others by not vaccinating. And if your pet does get rabies, it might not show symptoms for a very long time. In humans it can lie dormant for up to ten years. There's no cure for either pets or humans. The survival rate is about 0.001%, if that. I believe only one person is known to have survived rabies. If your pet bites you and is undiagnosed, you could die, too.

If these diseases weren't usually fatal, we wouldn't have developed vaccines against them.

I wasn't going to not give her her rabies vaccination. She's too young to get it now and it's required by law anyway. We were discussing parvovirus. There are also a lot of wild animals where I live so she would need her rabies vaccination anyway. Also, the rabies vaccination is different from the parvovirus one. From what I've been reading, rabies vaccinations don't stay in the body for as long so a booster is always needed (something like that anyway. Can't remember now). I asked about parvovirus because the puppy shots are given in series since we aren't sure when their material antibodies are weak. At 12 weeks, they have a 60 - 90% chance of being covered (can't remember the exact numbers either). I was also told by many that most puppies are covered after their second shot but not all. So I'd rather have a titer test done to check her immunity before I give her her last vaccination at 16 weeks. People keep worrying about the titer cost but that's not a concern to me. I need to know where her antibodies are in terms of immunity.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

I called a little while ago to make the appointment for the titer test for parvovirus. They refused to set the appointment. They told me that it's too expensive and that the vet probably wouldn't do it anyway. I'm in shock. I tried to explain to her why I wanted to have it done but she kept telling me not to bother. Whatever happened to listening to the patients? In this case, the patients owner... I live in a city which is heavily populated with dogs. Daisy goes to puppy socials and dog classes. I can't carry her around everywhere anymore because she is no longer 2lb. I needed to have this titer done so that I know where her antibodies stand in terms of immunity. It's for her own protection until she can get the last booster if I choose to give it to her. And I can't keep her inside and not socialize her either because she's starting to bark at strangers and dogs she doesn't know. It's becoming a problem. She's almost 4 months old, that small window of exposure is closing and it'll be so much more difficult to socialize her after she turns 4 months. At this point, I feel I should accept the risk and take her out to socialize. It seems no vet will listen to me anyway.