Kittens, Raw and Clostridium - safety?

[carolina]

:spit:
Little rascals you have there!!

If you get empty gel caps, I think that might work better than syringing...... Just transfer 1/4 capsule into the empty gel cap, give it to Ava, then the 1/2 one give to Kato. Pill them with a piller. This way you will know they are getting everything. You can smear the capsule in butter to make it easier for them to swallow.
You can get the empty gel caps in natural food stores.

Hope they start getting the full dosage soon - it works, but they have to eat it :cross: they will soon without major problems and double :cross: that it will work!!!!

 

[ldg]

I can't do paste or liquid with my cats, we have the same thing. I'm much better with just pilling them!

 

[tammyp]

Thanks for the tip about empty gel caps.

This morning i resorted to pilling the cut-in-half-capsule.  I was a bit worried about the cut edges - although not too bad, I did put the pill in soft side first.  What do you think about the safety of a cut in half vege capsule?  SO Ava is done this morning (no results yet on poo...another shower needed and clothes in the wash 'cause I had to clean her up after  she stepped in her sloppy poos).

We did have lots of laughter though, as my husband kindly offered to pill Kato (Dave is no.1 in Kato's heart).  But I realised Dave doesn't know what pilling is!  He tried to pour the powder from the capsule into Kato's open mouth...who wriggled of course and got powder all over his face!!  It killed me 

But Kato is so obliging for Dave - who went in for round two!  He reckons he got about a 1/4 cap of the powder sprinkled into an open mouth!!

Next step is DAVE doing the pocketing thing with the meat (he is far more adept with meat and knives than me...he insists on doing the cleaver work when he sees me preparing the cats' food tubs...out of sheer fear for my safety!)

 

[carolina]

How are they doing?

You know..... S. Boulardii poop STINKS
It was the first time I had the misfortune to be around one of them while they were pooping this morning...... Boy oh boy! :lol3:
I usually just collect the poop after it is buried..... But today I was sleeping and woke up with the smell of it. I could swear Lucky had diarrhea - it smelled SO AWFUL.

But then I checked and it was perfectly formed small little "raw poops". I guess the fermented yeast does that.....

Anyways...... oh the adventures...... oh the things we go through with these little fellas :lol3:

 

[tammyp]

Ah yes, the adventures!

Right, good news first.  We are now 16hrs, with only 1 poo from Ava!  This means the frequency (at least for now!) has reduced.  Kato left a perfect poo overnight, and when I came back from walking Kato at lunch time, the house smelt like a poo again...Ava!  I really can't imagine a worse smell than we have been stuck with for 3 weeks now...sans S.Boulardii!  Anyway, I didnt see the poo being laid, and it appeared clumped in a blob, but with a bit more firmness to my spatula.  More information when I see the next poo in action, and I'm hoping it will keep being some time away!

Onto the adventures of administering the S.Bourlardii...

We failed in pilling Kato last night, so I made a paste with butter.  Technicalities of consistency and administration were just perfect.  And then Kato turned into a running sprinkler.  It must REALLY taste bad.  He was salivating and flicking it off all over the 2 storey townhouse - partly because he was running from us as he thought we were going to get him for yet more 'poison'.  So, full clean at 11pm...and actually, no butter anywhere, just saliva, so I'm hoping he had had to swallow it!

Then this morning, hubby informs me they have eaten it, mixed into their canned.  Liar.  His hypothesis was to just not mix it, but leave it centrally, in the hope the cats would happliy munch away and bam, get the whole mouthful.  Instead, I find bowls with the middle bit of food carefully licked and nibbled AROUND.  So, I try the meat pocket idea.  I did a beautiful job!  

DID I MENTION I HAVE CLEVER CATS?!!!!!

Lick, lick, yummy meat.  No wait, there's something about it.  Pick it up and flick it like killing prey.  And again - pocket flicks open.  I close it all back up again and again offer, then decide to leave it to get ready for Church.  Come back - yay!  The meat is gone!  No.  It is lying about 3 feet away.  The pocket is flicked open, the meat has been dragged along the ground so that the SB is SMEARED onto the floor.  But the cleaning method obviously wasn't satisfactory, as most of the meat lies rejected on the floor anyway!

I'm thinking pilling is the way...we just have to get better at it!

 

[carolina]

The good news is, the little they are getting seem to be doing some effect - the bad news is....... you have some work ahead of you

yep. I think pilling is your best and only option here. Just do it - smear the capsule in butter - it goes down easily..... and bam!

 

[jcat]

That description of trying to get the SB into them has me in stitches - sorry!
It must taste horrible and sounds like Mogli and the times I tried to give him Slippery Elm. He sat and cried because I'd ruined his food.

 

[tammyp]

Oh JCat, I feel so bad at making Kato be suspicious of us and his food!  At least no crying yet!!

And yes, without humour, we just wouldn't get through anything!

 

[tammyp]

Feeling horrible.  I now give up on pilling even Ava!  She made such distressed sounds it brought Kato running, plus I just can't do it (she's so strong, and my fingers are a bit cut up by her teeth)!  Collosal incompetence, and now fear of causing distress and distrust.  Sigh.  They haven't eaten much today - Ava barely anything.  She hasn't had her first dose either.  

Two new things I tried: various 'roulades', carefully rolled using cling wrap.  The first from thin slivers of cream cheese, with the outside then coated in slivers of parmesan cheese and cut into morsels.  Ava ate one (3 for a dose) voluntarily, the rest had to go into canned food for further disguise....Kato had a full kitten dose this morning via this method, but Ava is not eating.  Then i did roulades with thin slices of roast beef, lined with thin slivers of butter for the SB to stick too, and again carefully rolled and cut into morsels, and mixed into canned.  Kato got the rest of his adult dose at lunch via this method.  Again, Ava not eating.

Carolina, do you know if the same dose, if split into 3 -4 feeding sessions, will still work medicinally?  

On the poo front, I'm being cautious about posting good news.  As part of Ava's illness, she has had a couple of perfect poos.  It has a pattern - one perfect poo, followed by a major relapse of vomiting (and mixed stool) the very next day...I'll update soon.

 

[carolina]

It says twice a day.... But I have seen recommended (for Ibd and travellers diarrhea), three times a day.... So it might. I have a question though, why are you not using a piller to pill them? It makes pilling quick, easy and stress free.... :dk:
Pillers are sold in pet stores or you can get from your vet.
I think by now you can have an idea that it DOES work.... But really... It will only work fully if they get the full dose.... You don't need to go through all this stress.... Get a piller.... This is too much....

 

[carolina]

A couple of things to think about: s. Boulardii doesn't build up/populate the gut. So when she has a full dose she will have a good poop, if she misses, back to diarrhea. It will be touch and go until it is gone, which is why it is so important they get their dosage every time.
Consider this as serious if a treatment as if you were treating it with metronidazole- it is. Make sure they get it, and they get it all.
Metro tastes awful and they got it, right? So they have to get this too.
The other thing is I forgot to send you vibes and hugs hang in there hun!

 

[ldg]

Hun, being able to pill a kitty is a skill worth developing, despite the little bites and stress. You don't want to have to worry every time she gets sick and needs medication, you know?

And untreated, clostridium can cause necrosis of the intestines, and then you're looking at a kitty with IBD, which is a whole other can of worms, so to speak. jcat's Mogli is having this problem as a result of an aggressive strain of E. coli that wasn't properly treated before he found her way to her home.

It takes a few times, but really, you CAN do it. First, take a big, deeeeeep breath. A few of them. :heart2:

The key is being quick and being CONFIDENT.

Are there ANY treats in which she has interest? If so, put one down in a corner. Kneel down behind her, butt on your feet, knees out. When you pill them, their natural reaction is to back up. She will have no place to go, "trapped" in the V of your knees. Hold her head firmly with one hand, tilted slightly upwards. Have the pill or piller with the pill in it in your other hand. (I prefer using my finger to pill despite the punctures I often get from their teeth). Press open the jaw at the back, where it hinges, with the forefinger of your hand holding her head. If you're holding the pill with your other hand, starting at the back of her open mouth, put the pill in, and quickly push it until you feel it go over the hump of her tongue. Then close her mouth, with her head still tilted a little up, and stroke her throat. If you got it over the hump in her tongue, she should swallow it almost right away. And if you have a treat she likes and will eat, put one down immediately.

All the while, tell her what a good girl she is, and you know she doesn't like this, you don't either, but she needs the medicine to get better. :rub:

...because that's what SB is here - a medicine she needs.

This can take a little practice, but please trust me, it's worth it. Just keep your sore finger clean. When I was first pilling Lazlo regularly, my finger was raw from his chomps. But now I have enough experience with it that it's usually over with before they even realize it's happening.

Like I said - the key is being quick about it. The longer you take to position yourself, hold the head, pop the pill, the more time there is for a thrashing head, flailing feet, etc.

 

[catspaw66]

Laurie, you paint a very good picture with words. I can almost see you pilling Lazlo.

 

[tammyp]

Agreed everyone.  I even watched some good vids.  I just failed miserably.

Both cats are diahorrea today.  Ava has vomited.  Neither are eating.  Kato peed on the couch.  Ava danced in the pee and trekked it across the couch (luckily I was up from stink and cleaning diahorrea at 5 am to see the pee antics).  

We're all pretty down in the dumps.

Now that the shops are open (just had a holiday weekend), I will try the piller.

 

[carolina]

Tammyp, be very very careful with this no eating business. It happened to Hope too. Be proactive, do NOT wait around. I put her on Cyproheptadine (appetite stimulant) until her diarrhea was gone and she was feeling better- it didn't take long.... Cypro takes a day to make an effect. Get some from your vet...
Hope got very gassy, nauseous and was feeling absolutely bloated. When she feels that way, her appetite is the first thing to go.

 

[tammyp]

Good news is they have eaten!  Ava has had approx 1 kitten can, Kato has had a full raw serve.

Ava astoundingly had a perfect poo!

And after driving around vets and pet shops, we have a fail on the piller - seems to be a stock problem in Melbourne apparently.  So I tried again myself.  I think 1/8 got down her before she managed to spit the thing out... for the 4th time.  I'll try again later.

Have emailed an update to my vet...

 

[ldg]

*phew* What a relief they've eaten!

Question? When pilling - how does some of the capsule go down if she spits it out? :dk: Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're giving it to Ava?

And how IS Kato?

Continued

Oh - a P.S. we rescued two kittens last Friday. Turns out they have coccidia. I've ordered the stuff I need to make my own capsules for kitten-sized doses (they're 5 weeks old) of S. boulardii and the acidophilus+bifidus supplement in one capsule (they are getting an antibiotic - Albon (sulfamethoxazole)). I don't see much in the literature on S. boulardii and coccidia, but in a study in chickens, it did provide inhibitory effect: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17434586

 

[tammyp]

Hey, cool LDG!  Lots of best wishes with the rescued kittens!

What size capsules did you get?  I'm having to order online for THOSE too...

Which is the answer to how some of the SB goes down while the capsule largely gets spat out - I'm temporarily using a cut in half capsule, with the end plugged and cut edges covered in some butter.  By the third attempt (if I'm lucky) the butter plug slightly unplugs! And some of the SB gets into Ava's mouth.

Which did lead to a new delivery method, as she isn't all melodramatic about the evil stuff in her mouth and mostly tries to clear it by swallowing (as opposed to Kato the walking sprinkler).  So, as I hadn't tried the butter paste method with her, I did.  And we have had two successful doses!

Kato is a different matter entirely, and I have not figured him out.  Hubby wants to wait for the piller for him.  Kato has largely been well - one or two diahorreas, then it resolves.  Although he has had a couple vomiting days.  Yesterday he was the sickest I've seen him with this tummy upset - 4 diahorreas (had to butt clean each time too).  And he wasn't settled, and didn't eat until later in the day.  On that front, they both ate lots in the evening and night 

and they have eaten a good breakfast this morning.

 

[ldg]

Oh, gotcha, that makes sense. I was puzzled.

I ordered capsule size #3, which should hold about 200 - 250mg. These kittens are just 5 weeks old, so Carolina and I were thinking just 1/4 of a 500mg S. boulardii pill 2x a day. That's why I'm going to mix it with the acidophilus+bifidus supplement, so I can use the manual filler thingy to fill the capsules more easily. I ordered one from the Cap M Quick website; I couldn't find a size 3 filler anywhere.

I'm glad you've got something working for Ava!

So Kato's bouts of diarrhea are unrelated to getting S. boulardii into him? Poor fella... but that is odd!

Continued vibes!!!!

 

[tammyp]

Thanks for the sizing!  I was trying to work out the smallest size for swallowing, that still allowed the dose to fit in.  And no, I couldn't find a filler that was smaller than a size 1.

Yeah, Kato has largely been well throughout Ava's issues; two incidents of sloppy poos over 2 weeks only.  He has not had any probiotic for 3 days - and yesterday and today have been poorly for him, but he was not poorly before we started SB.  Vet and I are thinking it is a bug they are passing between them, rather than clostridium perfingens...Ava's toxin counts were, afterall, under the amount they attribute for diahorrea.  So could be that it's a bug mucking up the natural clostridium in her gut???  I dunno.  Nothing showed up in all the tests...but apparently that sometimes happens.  And they are certainly close to each other- wanting to clean each other's bums even!

Vet wants to start them on an anti-parasitic.  And happy to keep them on SB also.

While I'm writing, any tips on how to clean urine from a couch?  I'm following the directions on my 'urine-off' enzyme cleaner, and just going to do it repeatedly - bouts of soaking and allowing to dry, then rinsing and allowing to dry, and repeat... - but maybe you have greater insight into 'thick' things that are soiled?