Kittens, Raw and Clostridium - safety?

[ldg]

Awww....

As long as you're at the vet, I'd ask about supplements that help regulate the immune system. Are they on a good, human probiotic already? Is the supplement Transfer Factor available there? http://www.4life.com/us/products/detail.aspx?ShoppingGroupId=0&ShoppingSubGroupId=253

Or what about bovine lactoferrin? It has so many potential benefits - but helping prevent Kato from recurring flu may be one of them. http://www.naturopathic.org/content.asp?admin=y&contentid=526

I give Chumley and Lazlo 250mg daily, two weeks on, two weeks off, though you might want to use it for a few months straight... as a milk protein, they like the taste and eat it just sprinkled on their food (and Lazlo is an extremely picky eater).

 

[tammyp]

Thanks LDG, will have to look into those things you mentioned - the palatable one for super sleuth fussy eaters is the most likely.  

We aren't on probiotics for that reason - cannot get it down their throats, and it is too stressful to try.  They avoid all food with any on/in it, so it has to be manual.

The outcome of the vet visit is Kato is having Lysine 2xdaily - thankfully it is a paste! AND tastes like fish!  So Dave can smear it over his teeth/gums and he licks it up.  He is also on a paste antibiotic for the secondary infection (yellow pus in eyes).

As for Ava, she is better than the vet thought, so that is good news.  I had a great 'series' of poo samples so she could see the patterning, and we are going to wait another 2 weeks to see if there is yet more improvement before/if running the PCR.  The good news with Ava is that she has grown - average 100g a day over the last 5 weeks.  But her energy seems to have been on her illness, so she is very late with her teething - she is just getting in her molars now, and she is having a terrible time.  Her gums are really inflammed and eating is a bit hard, but vet likes the fact we give her a boney meal each day (and other non-edibles to chew on).  We are giving her a mouth wash every two days to help the inflammation.  Her breath would knock you out at 2 feet, poor little girl.  And we finally are back on the vax route - first of 2 flu vax yesterday.  Spaying still a while away, but luckily it is winter.

 

[ldg]

The probiotic that has been so hard to get into them is the S. boulardii though, no? A normal acidophilus+bifidus supplement is tasty to most cats. Just as an FYI: http://www.pethealthandnutritioncen...tion-and-supplementation/probiotics-for-pets/

FYI, the lactoferrin will help with issues related to gum inflammation. I know she doesn't have stomatitis, but it may help prevent it as she seems to be having issues with her teeth/gums. There are many studies, at this point, that show lactoferrin helps resolve stomatitis.

I really hope the lysine helps Kato, and Ava puts all the health issues behind her!

 

[tammyp]

Hi again!

Sorry for not answering LDG...the probiotic un-palatability is unfortunately everything we have tried, not just the SB.  Both cats are now suspicious of anything not quite right with their food and will starve rather than eat it.  But I will investigate your link...

SO, as to the update, Kato is doing well and no longer has flu symptoms.  We are continuing the lysine (which he actually licks from our fingers!! YAY!)

Ava had another PCR test, and my vet phoned today with the results...clear for EVERYTHING (including corona virus - so it's good she isnt shedding), and just a small (normal) level of clostridium.

The only course of action we haven't tried is food.  We had a big discussion (vet wanted to try Royal Canin  digestive), and I outlined all my concerns about 'food' that had heaps of grains etc.  We are now settled on restricting Ava's raw to a single protein (rabbit), and giving her just one type of canned (it will most likely be Ziwipeak).  Vet says if it is a food thing, we should see improvement in 2 weeks...and we then continue for 4-6 weeks before adding in another protein.

Sigh.  I'm doing the same thing with my own diet, and it's horrible...dietician tomorrow after 6 weeks of boring crazy elimination to see what thing I will try to add and what symptoms it will trigger.

I don't hold out much hope that Ava will cope, but we will give it a go...

 

[tammyp]

Happy update!  Vet visit today shows NO ROPINESS of Ava's intestines to her touch!! So stoked!

It's not all fine and dandy, but I'm so pleased about that!  We have still had a few not good poos in the last few weeks, two with mucous, when it goes bad so does the frequency, and she has still not stopped vomiting - she vomited first thing in the morning on three consecutive days this week (including in our bed, which I discovered when I got up and made it, urk!)  We continue with the rabbit diet and 1 type of canned for another week - hopefully I will see more settling.  And then I can add in another protein...and so on each fortnight all going well.  She will be glad to eat something else!

Other good news is Ava has put on the right amount of weight, and she had her second flu vax today...which finally completes her kitten vaccinations!  Fingers crossed all goes well enough to schedule her spay in a few weeks time (she is now 7 months, and it's getting warm and sunny over here!!)

Kato has had a bit more of his gummy eye problems, so we keep hoping he will get fully better from flu.  

LDG, I did investigate some of your supplements, but we just can't get them, or anything like it here...our quarantine for one thing - particularly for cow stuff, the dearth of  supplements generally in this country.

 

[ldg]

Well, at least things are generally improving! :bigthumb:

Ava continues to do better and better - and can be spayed soon!

 

[tammyp]

Yeah, I'm happy, and fingers toes, everything crossed it keeps improving!  She had another 2 vomits this morning (still hasn't eaten anything today yet).  The funny thing about the vomit, was she tried to clean it up - the usual burying motions.  And then dragged Dave's shoe over and plopped that over (in) it!!! Lol!!!

 

[ldg]

Aw... poor thing! I really wonder what it is that's causing that.

 

[droogcat]

Hello!
Hope your kitties are thriving! One of your posts had mentioned that you were going to ask your vet about S. Boulardii. Was hoping to learn what you discovered in your efforts using this probiotic for C.P.

I have a cat who was diagnosed with Clostridrium P. after a few months of soft and sometimes smelly stools. Once it worsened, the vet prescribed an antibiotic with spiromycide and some metrodiazonal. It seemed to make him better by day 6 out of the 12, but it was VERY difficult to get it down him (horrible taste, as you may know!). After all that effort, he still has soft stools, though not as smelly or nearly as frequent, but they continue to end in drips which he tries to lick sometimes. I feel so bad for him...he's lost weight and is suspect of any food I give him after this experience.

I was thrilled to read on The Cat site that the S. Boulardii might help. But after 3 weeks on Fortiflora and then a week on a human form of S. B. + Jarrow's petacidopholis, he still has the same symptoms.

Thank you in advance for any advice!

Sabu's Mom

 

[ldg]

droogcat What dose of S boulardii were you giving? I resolved coccidia in kittens by using 2.5 billion of the Jarrow+MOS split into two doses, so given twice a day (I used size 3 gelcaps to pill them with it). This needs to be given for a month, and then most likely kitty should remain on a maintenance dose. Many of us use the Nexabiotic probiotic - it combines S boulardii, lactobacillus, and bifidobacterium. TCS member Carolina used S boulardii for her adult cat with C perf. The dose was 2.5 billion CFU given twice a day (total 5 billion CFU daily) for a month, and then kitty is kept on a maintenance dose.

In addition to that, I would also recommend using this method - don't let the title of the article put you off. We just had great success treating a cat in Norway that nothing else had helped - so many different antibiotics, more than once - no parasite ever actually identified despite PCR tests and an actual biopsy. It's easy, it's safe, and there is just no downside to trying it: http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/giardia-natural-treatment-protocol/ All you need is some prozyme digestive enzymes!

 

[tammyp]

Thanks LDG!

I really couldn't supply the info you need, as after all this, we are still unsure about what little Ava had.  She got a bit better (just a bit) after one of the antibiotics, but it seems as if time and a restricted diet was really what got her totally better.  I don't think she had dietary issues INITIALLY, as she passed the illness to Kato, and he did get better fully with the antibiotics.  So it was a bug - which one, who can guess.  We did two PCRs, both with different results, and only a slight indication for clostridium (which the vet did say could be just a natural elevation).  But our vet said that with a long period of gastro upset, this is where dietary sensitivities can start.  OUr vet is fairly open to the ideas I bring in, but she really didn't think the SBoulardii would work...and it didn't really.  Sure, it put lots of yeast into her feacal samples, so we were definaiely getting it into her, but we also didn't do it for a full month, as the stress of administering it was judged to be too high - she needed to eat, not run whenever we approached with food or treats.

Anyway, she is better, but at times of stress, she gets diahorrea again (and sometimes vomiting as well).  I think she will always just have a weak digestive tract.  The latter bouts tend to resolve quickly, although one took a week (and I did take her to the vet that time - usually I expect it to be better in 24-48hrs).  I don't have her on any supplements (except lysine, as we think she is a herpes carrier...she also gave that to Kato, who has is actively!), and she is on a 'please eat' diet...we aim for raw, but she has taken a liking to ziwipeak, so it is whatever we can tempt her to ingest!!

Oh, and LDG ....I finally was able to get lactoferrin over here!!  Kato seems to be doing well on 500mg lysine x 2 daily, plus one capsule of lactoferrin split in 2 doses.  The doubled lysine (we were on 250mg x2) actually stopped his coughing in 2 days in his last flare.  Amazing.  And even more so is that both he and Ava think lysine paste is a yummy treat - I mix the lactoferrin into it and he still thinks its a treat to lick off mummy's hand!

 

[droogcat]

@DroogCat What dose of S boulardii were you giving? I resolved coccidia in kittens by using 2.5 billion of the Jarrow+MOS split into two doses, so given twice a day (I used size 3 gelcaps to pill them with it). This needs to be given for a month, and then most likely kitty should remain on a maintenance dose. Many of us use the Nexabiotic probiotic - it combines S boulardii, lactobacillus, and bifidobacterium. TCS member Carolina used S boulardii for her adult cat with C perf. The dose was 2.5 billion CFU given twice a day (total 5 billion CFU daily) for a month, and then kitty is kept on a maintenance dose.

In addition to that, I would also recommend using this method - don't let the title of the article put you off. We just had great success treating a cat in Norway that nothing else had helped - so many different antibiotics, more than once - no parasite ever actually identified despite PCR tests and an actual biopsy. It's easy, it's safe, and there is just no downside to trying it: http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/giardia-natural-treatment-protocol/ All you need is some prozyme digestive enzymes!

Thank you for your replies, LDG and TammyP!   I was giving my adult kitty 100 mg of S. Boulardii twice a day mixed into his food (with the Jarrow Dopholis for pets-just 2 billion cfus total of general probiotics). Problem is he didn't always finish his meal. And, as TammyP mentioned,  if I syringe him like I did with the antibiotic, the stress is likely too much to start giving the probiotics @ twice a day now. However, I will try it for a week, and will consider ordering the Nexabiotic and Prozyme. The big question is...Do kitties usually take to both of these in their food, if anyone knows...?  (Unfortunately, I don't think he can handle the stress of syringing for a month, and I cannot take the risk of mixing anything strong tasting into his food again, since he is already suspicious and eating less.)

Appreciate all the info...I read the studies posted here on S.Boulardii but didn't see anything definitive for C.Perf. But, hope to hear soon from the lab who makes it to see if they have any knowledge here in France.

Tammy, sorry to hear about Ava's symptoms continuing. To be clear, was the amount you gave her for the S.B. a total of 250 mg/day in a divided dose...?  Or is it as LDG indicated -- 500 mg day total (5 billion CFUs, correct?). Afraid to give too much as that can cause the upsets too. Have you seen any studies with amounts at all?

I am so grateful to be able to connect with you about this frustrating situation. I believe the stress of moving, along with unsterilized kitties marking outside our door has contributed. His diet is Orijen's high protein dry food, plus canned Purina "Pro Plan-Delicate" chicken/turkey for sensitive digestion. (The food here is supposedly higher quality than the U.S., with more inspections, etc.). At this point, I'd consider changing his diet, but then must consider my other kitty who has stablized about a bad flare up of IBD (they have eaten from the same plate for 10 years now, and it is near to impossible to keep them separated).

~ Thanks in advance for any feedback on the taste of the two products recommended...!

 

 

[abby2932]

I give my two cats Nexabiotic mixed in with their food with no problems. I sprinkle 1 pill into their breakfast and 1 pill into their dinner so they each get 1/2 a pill, twice a day. They don't seem as though they taste anything at all. I do mix it in to the food really well though. 

 

Edit: If your kitty doesn't always finish his food, just put half or 1/4 in his bowl at first, mixed with the medicine. Then once he eats all of that, put down the rest and let him eat however much else he wants.

 

[ldg]

Tammy, that is wonderful. :heart2: I'm so glad the bump in lysine helps so much!


DroogCat - the use of digestive enzymes for any potential pathogens requires that they be mixed only with water and given on an empty stomach. So mixing them into food defeats the purpose. Is there something like a cat bag available there? They're often called cat grooming bags, or feline restraint bags. Here's two examples:



When properly fitted, these make giving medication - pilling or syringing - almost stress-free. I don't know if you've ever worked trapping feral cats, but the effect is the same as putting a blanket over a trap - kitty settles right down. Just putting the thought out there....

In France, you should be able to find S. boulardii without MOS. It seems the MOS is what makes it bitter and hard to get into them. Mine eat S boulardii without MOS sprinkled onto their food (I feed raw that isn't ground, so there is no mixing it "into" food). Same for the Nexabiotic - which they don't even seem to notice.

Edit: If your kitty doesn't always finish his food, just put half or 1/4 in his bowl at first, mixed with the medicine. Then once he eats all of that, put down the rest and let him eat however much else he wants.

This is excellent advice!

 

[ldg]

Oh - droogcat , I meant to include a link to the paper that is the source of the dosing information. The S boulardii was used for C diff at UC Davis, where a pet parent could not afford vancomycin for treating (what appeared to be) antibiotic-resistant C diff. It is other studies (livestock - not in cats) - that indicated S boulardii is effective for C perf and coccidia.

http://vdi.sagepub.com/content/11/1/50.full.pdf The info on S boulardii is on p 53. The information is

"One additional cat had chronic, intermittent diarrhea and 3 consecutive positive stools samples over an 8-week period despite metronidazole therapy. Because the cost for vancomycin was prohibitive for the owner, the cat was given yeast (Saccharomyces boulardii 0.5 g/day, divided) for 4 weeks, during which time the diarrhea ceased and the ensuing fecal test for C. difficile was negative).

When I needed to treat kittens, I used 1/2 the adult dose.

 

[droogcat]

Oh - @DroogCat, I meant to include a link to the paper that is the source of the dosing information. The S boulardii was used for C diff at UC Davis, where a pet parent could not afford vancomycin for treating (what appeared to be) antibiotic-resistant C diff. It is other studies (livestock - not in cats) - that indicated S boulardii is effective for C perf and coccidia.

http://vdi.sagepub.com/content/11/1/50.full.pdf The info on S boulardii is on p 53. The information is

"One additional cat had chronic, intermittent diarrhea and 3 consecutive positive stools samples over an 8-week period despite metronidazole therapy. Because the cost for vancomycin was prohibitive for the owner, the cat was given yeast (Saccharomyces boulardii 0.5 g/day, divided) for 4 weeks, during which time the diarrhea ceased and the ensuing fecal test for C. difficile was negative).

When I needed to treat kittens, I used 1/2 the adult dose.

Thank you very much...To be clear though, did you mean to say C. Perf. or C. Difficile in your last sentence, LDG...? Because as you well know, to consider putting Sabu under a month of twice/day syringe which he hates (pilling is even more difficult with him), I want to be sure it is worth the stress on him (which as we know can upset his GI balance as well). (He is an adult cat; not sure why my ID says "kitten.")

I'm hoping to hear from the lab in the next few days on what they think about S.Boulardii and Clostridrium Perf....Will share what I learn, if anything! Merci encore, and hope your menagerie is thriving!!!

 

[ldg]

The treatment was used for c DIFF, not c perf. So no, that's not a mistake, that's the quote from the study. The S boulardii was used for C DIFF. The importance was that it was used in a cat, and it was effective. So we knew it was safe to use in cats, and we had a dose.

That is the study that provided the dosing guidelines WE used to treat c PERF (Carolina, here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/259985/trouble-in-raw-paradise-clostridium-perfringens-and-my-cats ) and coccidia (Me, with rescued kittens, mentioned here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/262587/probiotics-search-human-grade-and-cfus#post_3388190 ).

It'd take me a while, as I don't seem to have bookmarked them, but there are studies in livestock - pigs, I think, for S boulardii being effective in reducing the need for antibiotics due to c PERF infections in piglets, and in poultry for coccidia.

 

[droogcat]

There is

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...hYHACw&usg=AFQjCNFmfgvgYpJ1fEIbd7EqVkhLWb5y2w

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...hYHACw&usg=AFQjCNG3ftqgYggvzQEvAwwVxNRmHgjPKw

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...z4CYDw&usg=AFQjCNG4i6LCH0MNtaesR4LWf98LHRR_Dw


Yes, there is a lot on C. perfringens and Saccharomyces - you just need to take the time researching it. Not as much as C. Difficille, but there is. C. Difficille is very common in humans in a hospital environment, therefore you will see much more studies - it doesn't mean Saccharomyces doesn't show efficacy against perfringens.

I can't tell you what to do and what not.

What I CAN tell you is this - ALL my cats - all four of them, had it. They had C. perfringens in toxic levels. ONE dose of Saccharomyces Boulardii, and the four of them are fine. Of course the treatment is not a dose - the cat that was treated with it was treated for a month, with 250mg a day, divided. That's my plan - I might give 2 months..... Will see....

So...... I think that is good enough for me.

I did research before I started, but now it is plenty for me, and boy am I glad I did it!!
My cats were in bad shape.... Hope wasn't eating so sick she was feeling. It was a sea of poop over here. Now they are all eating, playing, and the diarrhea is completely gone.

I Will have them tested after a month to make sure the pester is gone, but I am confident it will be.

Hi Caroline:

Thank you for your thorough reporting on your babies and clostridium p. last year! I trust they are all in good health. I would love some feedback on my kitty's continuing situation with the same bacteria.

I treated my adult cat with an antibiotic for 14 days prescribed by the vet for 10 days(spyromicide + a bit of metro). He seemed better after day 6, but after that it was such a battle that he probably got about 12 out of the 14 days of the full dose of ground powder. Unfortunately, he still has part-soft/liquid, part-solid stools. I did give him Fortiflora from the vet during the meds and a week following. But, after reading all your posts on Sacc. Boulardii, I've been giving him the 500 mg/day for a little over a week, and I was expecting to see him much better. I'm wondering if it could it take longer for full recovery, since he had his symptoms for awhile before it was diagnosed as C.P.

I am also adding to his food Jarrow's PetDophilus (2 billion total, divided dose, of a blend including L. acidopholis LA-14, L. casei, , E. faecium, etc. It contains "inulin" a type of fiber). My questions: 1) Should I switch to "your" brand of S.B. (I notice it is derived from S. cerevisiae strain + MOS, and the research does refer to very specific strains like that one.)  2) Does he perhaps need to take it more than a month(?) before re-testing him...? 3) Finally, did you ever try psyllium or slippery elm, and could that help given the consistency of his stools.

Your thoughts and feedback are much appreciated!

 

[carolina]

Hi droogcat , how are you giving the s. Boulardii (which one are you giving) ? It only works if you give every 12 hours. So you need to give 1/2 dose in the morning, and 1/2 at night.
While treating with Boulardii I used no other probiotics.
After one month, I changed for another probiotic called Nexabiotic, which also contains Boulardii, also giving 1/2 capsule in the morning and 1/2 at night. Nexabiotic is a multi-strain.

 

[carolina]

I forgot, yes, they are all fine and have never had another issue with Clostridium again, knock on wood! :cross: