Kittens, Raw and Clostridium - safety?

[tammyp]

Hi everyone, 

As some of you know, Ava my 15 week kitten came down with an upset tummy and we had a PCR test done.  The results came through last night and she has slightly elevated levels of clostridium toxin at 200 thousand(they test for the toxins excreted by the bacteria), and was positive for corona virus.

Both my vet and my breeder have said clostridium is associated with raw or undercooked meat; which is why my breederr says she feeds cooked chicken and rabbit to kittens, and isn't a fan of chicken wings (things must have changed since I got Kato!)

So, once again, am I missing something?

1.  Damn, I thought 3 days of freezing made meat safe....only for parasites?  Salmonella AND clostridium get through?

2.  Do we not feed raw to kittens until x age when they have a more developed immune system?

3.  Given Ava's situation - where her immune system has been challenged, and we want to avoid that because of the corona virus- what do you think I should do with her feeding?

I am going to start some antibiotics (metranizadol -sp??), and once that is finished, we will give her probiotics to help the good gut flora re-establish

For my own interest, I asked the vet if there was possibility of clostridium being picked up from other contaminated food sources, ie (a) Kibble (b) treats (c) canned food.  Her answer was that this was all very unlikely.  My thoughts were, that if salmonella lives very comfortably even on 'such a dry surface like kibble' (her reason why bacteria wouldn't likely be on kibble - although she had to admit the salmonella when I brought that up), then it would seem quite possible - maybe even likely? - that clostridium could contaminate kibble and treats.  Anyone have some data/research to guide my thinking?

And yes, I am also thinking, that as clostridium is naturally present in the gut (like salmonella in cats), then other things could have caused the imbalance.  I asked this also of the vet; 'no' to Stress.  'Possibly' to diet change.  And I forgot to ask about the slight  booger eyes Ava had - which turned into cat flu for Kato.

Thanks wonderful knowledgable people!

 

[ldg]

Aw, I'm glad the source of the problem was found! I'm sorry it's a bacterial overgrowth issue. I know freezing doesn't destroy salmonella, but I wasn't sure about clostridium. I looked it up, and found this: http://www.uoguelph.ca/foodsafetynetwork/clostridium-perfringens and Carolina sent me this earlier today: http://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/digestive/c_ct_clostridial_enterotoxicosis#.UaVSPD5fkyd

So no, freezing wouldn't manage this one either.

Given that Kato also had diarrhea, it would seem the source is the meat. Probably just got a batch that had been exposed to it.

Basically, it can happen to cats of any age, and is usually self-resolving (as apparently it was in Kato). Kittens' immune systems aren't as developed. For an adult cat, I doubt a vet (familiar with raw) would recommend doing anything differently with the diet long term, though using cooked food is probably advisable until the diarrhea has resolved in a kitten. :heart2:

I know there are some vets that recommend feeding cooked food to kittens until they're "older" (whatever that is). But I see no logic in that. The risks are low that something does happen. We don't KNOW that it was the meat, as the articles clearly state it can be from other things. And... I shouldn't go for a walk outside because I might get hit by a bus? OK - not the best analogy. But there are sooooooooo many studies that indicate that exposure to environmental "pathogens" IMPROVES the immune system long term. I see no reason not to feed raw food to kittens. But that's me.

 

[ldg]

...forgot to mention, it does seem like a probiotic is in order too. Just make sure to space the metro (the drug is metronadizole) and the probiotic by a few hours at least.

 

[tammyp]

LDG, you are just wonderful!  You have useful info, and lovely sympathy.

My husband is of the mind that we should keep feeding raw, as that is what cats are designed to eat.  And truely, Ava loves it more than any other foods (yippy?!).  I guess it was just bad luck - I hope it gets fixed, never to return again!!  I probably won't feed as much raw for the next couple weeks -it's just hard when Ava really really wants Kato's rabbit bone!

 

[carolina]

Tammyp, I wasn't going to post as I don't have my test results yet, and I didn't want to post anything before having firm answers.... But.... Sounds like I might be on the same boat as you, so let me share my preliminary findings:
First of, ALL my cats are "sick". I say in between quotes because for three of them all it is is bad (awful liquid) diarrhea. Hope however is sick. She is depressed, her appetite is low, she looks as though she is in pain, of course her diarrhea is something awful.
Obviously I went to the vet- twice. The first time I was under the impression it was due to doubling the egg lecithin dosage. But when removing it completely from the diet didn't get them better, I knew something else was wrong.
Yes, the egg lecithin DID give the soft stool, BUT, I also got them a new batch of turkey and chicken. And on that day, the day I fed those meats, was the day all four got ill.
My vet doesn't think this is Salmonella; he said in all his years as a vet, he has never seen a cat get salmonella from meat- he has treated dogs, but cats deal so well with Salmonella, he really doesn't think healthy cats would get it like this.
BUT, he did tell me about clostridium. He said the source is bad meat- meat that is no longer fresh, or starting to decay. He said it is commonly seen in inside-outside cats who will find dead rodents and birds and eat it. Since ours are inside, the source points to the meat.
I couldn't have a sample from Hope tested (she was the one I took to the vet); but I was able to take a good poop sample from Mac and they will test it for me. Results will be in a few days.
Meanwhile he did NOT advise me to change the diet- he said they have been doing wonderful on raw, and this was a total fluke. They are ok. They are eating, playing, running, and happy. They do have diarrhea, but they WILL get better. Hope, although she feels bad, she is not dehydrated nor she has lost weight.
He told me to dump the meat and buy another one.
If it is clostridium, we will treat them. For now we will give a daily dose, twice a day of Diagel in case of this being Salmonella.
Also, I have been doing some reading on clostridium. This probiotic seems to be VERY effective against c. Difficile. I am hoping it will work for different strands too. As a person with IBD who was recently in trouble, I can testify this is amazing. There are sites that recommend it to cats. I started giving it to mine tonight, since I have it here- they hate it! I cute the meat and make a pocket out of it. It seems to work. I am giving 1/2 capsule 2x a day. : Sacharomyces Boulardii & MOS, 90 Capsules link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OVW0E/?tag=&tag=thecatsite
Well, I hope this helps.
My vet is not too concerned, and I TRUST my vet with my eyes closed. When he says this will resolve I know it will. Since he says they are fine on raw, I know they are.
I had a gut feeling, that day, the meat didn't look right. The package was "sweaty".... I shouldn't have bought it.... And most of all, I should never fed it.
While they are acting up and raising hell around the house.... I deal with the hassle of the dirty butts and rush to get a solution. As long as they are fine :heart3:
Good luck hun!

Oh, before I forget: adding fiber seems to be a good thing (helps to slow down the digestive system, and allows a good environment for the good bacteria to multiply), and somehow psyllium is mentioned quite a bit.

 

[tammyp]

Carolina, thank you!  It is such a reassurance to hear your story and what your vet has to say.  

I wish I could identify my dodgy meat source...but there wasn't one to my non-telescopic vision.  I am thinking i need to train the cats to eat the meal when given - they like to graze, so maybe the time the meat was sitting around was the issue?  Then again, I also saw Ava chewing a bunch of old Dill i had drying on the balcony, and this was close to everything going downhill.

My vet has given me some probiotics for after the course of antibiotics.  Gee, wasn't that fun syringing in the liquid tonight (think most of it went into the kitten!)  I'm sure Kato will get a small dose of it too when he cleans her!

The behaviour of 3 of your cats seems very similar to Ava; playing around and quite bright and energetic.  Just frequent, awful, stinky diahorrea (and gas).  I'm hoping I didnt see blood in it tonight!

I hope everything goes well for you and the kitties 

If you do see your vet again, and you think it is ok to ask him a question for me, could you ask whether he would keep a kitten on a raw diet in this instance?

 

[carolina]

Just a good update: I gave them the probiotic last night. Again, they HATE IT. I cut the meat into thick slices, make a "belly" into the slices, kind of a butterfly cut, put the powder inside, carefully close the meat, and cut it into smaller pieces.

I gave each 1/2 capsule.

Bugsy woke up with solid poop.
Mac woke up with cow's pie consistency poop (as oppose of pee consistency of last night)

Hope and Lucky haven't pooped yet - I will keep you posted!

I will give them 1/2 capsule 2x a day.

For a kitten I would probably give 1/4 capsule...... But ask your vet for the dosage

 

[tammyp]

Lol, Carolina, I LOVE your descriptions!

In case you have words of wisdom on the type of probiotic to use, this is the one my feline specialist vet gave me - we start after the antibiotics are finished:

It’s a Paw probiotic (a division of Blackmore), and it is a powder; sprinkle on food is the direction. It has:

lactobacillus acidophilus 10,00,00cfu/g

Saccharomyces boulardii <500cfu/g

Sccharomyces cerevisiae <500cfu/g

Calcium ascorbate 1mg/g

Glad you have had a bit of improvement already!  Too soon to really tell with Ava yet - the frequency of motions is less thank goodness, but she did vomit today too.

 

[carolina]

Lol, Carolina, I LOVE your descriptions!

In case you have words of wisdom on the type of probiotic to use, this is the one my feline specialist vet gave me - we start after the antibiotics are finished:

It’s a Paw probiotic (a division of Blackmore), and it is a powder; sprinkle on food is the direction. It has:

lactobacillus acidophilus 10,00,00cfu/g
Saccharomyces boulardii

 

[tammyp]

Hey,thanks Carolina.  Coincidentally, I also have IBD - ulcerative colitis specifically.  And I also have fructose malabsorption.  I always wondered why high-strength probiotics didn't help me, as the research suggests they will help people with IBD - although my gastro said it can be a bit trial and error to get the right strain for your flora.  In fact, probiotics make me TERRIBLY sick and I have no desire for trial and error...low and behold, it's the fault of the fructose malabsorption, which is a current area of focus for my health (only starting to get to grips with it this year).  

Australia is leading the way on research, specifically my city, so I am very fortunate.  I'm on a strict low FODMAP diet...and no high strength probiotics or any prebiotics.  Someone said these are like 'feeding the pirhanas' that live in our bellies.  I think it's more along the lines of feeding AND adding pirhanas!  Don't know the specifics of your illness, but I do know a lot of IBD people also have some degree of IBS...and this diet I'm on will help people with IBS.  If you want more info: http://www.med.monash.edu/cecs/gastro/fodmap/.  Please be aware that you should only get info from Monash - so many people (Drs, dieticians, natropaths etc) get it wrong, and Monash started and leads the research (I also see a Monash trained dietician, and find her very helpful).  Unfortunately, they test Australian foods, and I understand that may not be the same for produce grown in different areas of the world.  But it will at least be a start.  They update info as they test more foods every 6 months, and also have a self-updating app.  It may not be of any interest or help for you, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

I'll see if I can get that probiotic (for the cats!) you mentioned, and if not, will check out the medical one that was recommended to me before we found out about fructose malabsorption.

 

[carolina]

I will take a look at it..... I would discuss this probiotic with your Dr. Though. It is an yeast probiotic - if you get a single strain, not mixed like the usual high strength probiotics in the market, it just might work for you as it has no fructose.

Anyways...... IBD sucks. Luckily my life has been normal, or at least close to normal lately..... I will tell you something though - I will think VERY HARD before taking antibiotics next time. It was AWFUL. And my goodness, did it take a while for me to say...... ok, I think I am alright now! DARN!

I guess We are both on the same boat...... quite literally....... and what a boat, he! :lol3:

 

[tammyp]

Oh, ha ha!.... I thought it was a creek...as in 'up xxxx creek' (hopefully not in a boat without a paddle!)

The fructose thing with probiotics is not so much what is in the probiotic (fructose or FODMAPS wise), but that certain dietary molecules get down to a part of the bowel they shouldn't be in, as they didn't absorb/breakdown in the small intestine (where fructose is digested).  And then they interact and feed probiotics in a terrible manner!  SO, maybe, once I get my body working better, I might be able to do a probiotic later...we'll see!

I had a visit with your cats via your website - lovely to meet them!!  I'm so happy they have such a good home with you.  And snap to a few things on your site eg: I do exactly the same with that little mouse!  It is on Da-Bird right now, and the cats beg for it.  I only have to open the cupboard door and Ava comes racing.  But I played with the 'wrong' toy today and she meowed the whole time - until I switched to the mouse!

And on the Ava front....FIRST SOLID POO this morning

 

[ldg]

And on the Ava front....FIRST SOLID POO this morning

GREAT NEWS! SO glad she's on the mend!

 

[carolina]

Well.... Not much to report. The tests are back; clostridium perfringens.
My vet was not in the office today, and the other vet wanted them all on Metronidazole, which I refused. The probiotic is working- so much so, that no one is even pooping
I will talk to my vet on Monday, as I much rather treat them with Saacharomyces than with metro :nod:
They did take 3 doses of Diagel, every 12 hours.
The only cats who pooped since then were Mac and Bugsy, and both were good :bigthumb:

 

[tammyp]

Back to sloppy poos for Ava; liquid diahorrea and some formed stool.

AND BOTH cats are vomiting today.  Not eaten much either 

 

[carolina]

Awwww

Tammy, can you buy Saccharomyces there? Pure, on its own? if you can, do it - I have tons of studies here....
It really works.... !!!


:rub:

 

[ldg]

Oh Tammy, I'm so sorry. :heart2: I hope you're able to find the Saccharomyces boulardii. :cross:

Carolina, I'm so glad you found a good solution so quickly! :heart2:

 

[tammyp]

So, finally been able to spend some hours reading literature on probiotics and clostridium.  As you noted Carolina, the S.Boulardii strain was associated in efficacy with C.Difficile.  There isn't anything definitive on C.Perfingens...but some very recent research showed a mix of 3 probiotics inhibited it in poultry.  Unfortunately, it appears to be a 'trade secret' because it will be marketed to the poultry industry - at least this is the reason I presume they don't disclose exactly which strains of probiotics are in the mix (apart from family names...one lactobacillus one, but no Saccharomyces).

One textbook on bacteriology very interestingly had this to say:

Usually the organism is encountered in improperly sterilized (canned) foods in which endospores have germinated

(http://textbookofbacteriology.net/themicrobialworld/CperCdiff.html)

(SEE, world!!! It might not be the raw!)

I also found this and hadn't yet heard of that tylosin powder, or follow-up tests:

Treatment

Several antibacterial drugs are effective in controlling CPE. Acute cases often respond well to amoxicillin (22 mg/kg BID) or metronidazole (10-20 mg/kg BID) for 7-28 days. Many clinicians have likely treated CPE with these medications empirically without knowing what they were treating. Chronic cases tend to respond best to tylosin powder. The recommended dose is: Animals greater than 23 kg ¼ tsp BID, 12 to 23 kg 1/8 tsp BID, 5 to 12 kg 1/12 tsp BID, and less than 4.5 kg 1/16 tsp BID (a "pinch"). Cats definitely do not accept the powder well at all, even when it is mixed in very tasty foods. It is best to have the powder reconstituted to capsule form for administration to cats. The medication is very safe. Some animals require treatment for several to many months (3 to12 months or more). Over time the dose may in some cases be successfully reduced to SID and then every other day dosage (after several months or more on a BID schedule).

Dietary fiber supplementation may also help control CPE. Probable mechanisms include decreased  C.  perfringens  fecal concentration, lower colonic pH, which prevents sporulation, and increased concentrations of SCFA. Some patients may respond well to dietary fiber supplementation alone.

Follow-up testing at 3-6 months can be done to determine if toxin persists. Once daily to every other day tylosin in conjunction with dietary fiber supplementation are used in chronic cases.

 http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.co...-Giardi/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/769099

I'm not sure I like the fibre route - given that is lowers the acidic digestive environment (which is beneficial and is enhances by the raw diet)?

I have also written to my vet asking a lot of questions (!), and also asking if she can send me any literature on the efficacy of various probiotic strains on C.Perfingens.

On a more personal note, we have had more of the soft poos today, high in frequency.  And I have a stinky farter asleep on my lap as I type!  Thankfully no vomiting today and they are both eating better than yesterday.

 

 

[carolina]

There is

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...hYHACw&usg=AFQjCNFmfgvgYpJ1fEIbd7EqVkhLWb5y2w

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...hYHACw&usg=AFQjCNG3ftqgYggvzQEvAwwVxNRmHgjPKw

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...z4CYDw&usg=AFQjCNG4i6LCH0MNtaesR4LWf98LHRR_Dw


Yes, there is a lot on C. perfringens and Saccharomyces - you just need to take the time researching it. Not as much as C. Difficille, but there is. C. Difficille is very common in humans in a hospital environment, therefore you will see much more studies - it doesn't mean Saccharomyces doesn't show efficacy against perfringens.

I can't tell you what to do and what not.

What I CAN tell you is this - ALL my cats - all four of them, had it. They had C. perfringens in toxic levels. ONE dose of Saccharomyces Boulardii, and the four of them are fine. Of course the treatment is not a dose - the cat that was treated with it was treated for a month, with 250mg a day, divided. That's my plan - I might give 2 months..... Will see....

So...... I think that is good enough for me.

I did research before I started, but now it is plenty for me, and boy am I glad I did it!!
My cats were in bad shape.... Hope wasn't eating so sick she was feeling. It was a sea of poop over here. Now they are all eating, playing, and the diarrhea is completely gone.

I Will have them tested after a month to make sure the pester is gone, but I am confident it will be.

 

[ldg]

I have to agree... the studies in C. diff were enough to convince me it was worth trying. In my opinion, probiotics are safer to try than antibiotics. And as Carolina's kitties were the "guinea pigs" for treating C. perf with S.Boulardii and it seemed to work almost immediately... I'm thinking the proof is in the ... lack of pudding poop, so to speak. :nod:

I see no harm in trying to find it, or at least chatting about using it with the vet. :heart2: