Giada is always hungry

[minish]

Minish is pretty much like Giada and she tends to gain a lot of weight if I give in to demands or free feed. I think 2 reasons: food deprivation before I found her and boredom.
My experience:
-6 to 8 small portions per day:I ended up with her asking for food 12 to 16 times per day. So I switched back to 3 meals. Now she asks 6 times per day.
-finding ways to make her feel full:adding warm water to wet food works well. If I dilute it too much she protests and keeps asking for the other food.
-making her eat slower:spreading wet food on a large dish and giving kibble in a toy or throwing it one by one.
-no treats when she asks. Occasional treats and not everyday so that it becomes her right.
-keeping a sharp schedule of meals:she starts asking for food an hour before her mealtime. I say better than 2 hours before..
-being the only one that feeds her as long as I'm at home. She stopped nagging my boyfriend and tricking me with her theatrics half an hour after being fed by him.
-offering alternative attention when she asks for food:I follow her to the kitchen and run back staring a game of chase. I scoop her up and kiss her belly (she hates being scooped up but she can't protest since she got the attention). I talk sweet words. I throw toys around.

None of these solved the issue. But she gives up nagging me sooner than before. Takes a nap before asking for food again.
In the end, if Giada is healthy, ignore the unnecessary demands and don't give in.

 

[ladytimedramon]

What about a slow feed mat or bowl like these:
Aquapaw Slow Treater Silicone Lick Mat - Chewy.com
Frisco Fish Shaped Ridges Slow Feed Bowl, Light Blue, 1.25 cups, 2 count - Chewy.com
Frisco Bone Shaped Ridges Slow Feed Bowl, Pink, 3 Cups - Chewy.com

They do work. I got the bottom one for my sister's beagle, also a fast eater (under 2 minutes). It slowed him down a lot. The bigger problem is my brother-in-law didn't see any problem and refuses to use it. You just have to spread it out around the bowl and they have to work around all the curves, etc, to get up every last piece. There are a bunch of different patterns and styles.

 

[Antonio65]

Minish is pretty much like Giada and she tends to gain a lot of weight if I give in to demands or free feed. I think 2 reasons: food deprivation before I found her and boredom.

Food deprivation might be a reason. Her and her siblings were fed by their mother off garbage from the bins when I found them, and it is possible she was eating less than the rest of the litter, the vet who first visited her said she was smaller than the others. And she's still small sized. Her sister is much bigger, her mother and father are big cats!
Having being fed waste from the bins by her mother might explain why she would eat everything she finds.

-6 to 8 small portions per day:I ended up with her asking for food 12 to 16 times per day. So I switched back to 3 meals. Now she asks 6 times per day.

This is what I tried to do, 4 to 5 meals a day, it didn't work well, so I tried to add some kibbles in the middle. It isn't working either. It could be boredom, but when she wakes up at 10:45pm sharp and starts yowling and screaming desperately, I don't think it's boredome

-finding ways to make her feel full:adding warm water to wet food works well. If I dilute it too much she protests and keeps asking for the other food.

I'm adding water to all her wet meals, about 8 to 10 ml per meal, up to about 50 ml of water per day. It isn't warm water, though, it's bottled water, the same one I give her in her water bowl for drinking. Her food is kept out of the fridge, the can is over in less than or 5 hours and has a lid.

-making her eat slower:spreading wet food on a large dish and giving kibble in a toy or throwing it one by one.

Haven't tried this, but I just bought that beautiful bowl set, I had looked for it for weeks or months, and I wouldn't like to put it away... I was suggested to use one of those ridged toys, tube, mats, but I fear she would eat them too because they would have some scent left on them.

-no treats when she asks. Occasional treats and not everyday so that it becomes her right.

No treats at all.

-keeping a sharp schedule of meals:she starts asking for food an hour before her mealtime. I say better than 2 hours before..

A sharp schedule is what I am trying to keep, as I wrote in a previous post. She always starts meowing for food about 30 minutes to an hour before, but I do not surrender to her

-being the only one that feeds her as long as I'm at home. She stopped nagging my boyfriend and tricking me with her theatrics half an hour after being fed by him.

This isn't always possible. My wife works on two shifts, when she is home she gives the cat some kibbles mid morning or in the afternoon, and I know what time she had them so Giada can't trick me. But it is one or two times a day, otherwise Giada relies on me.

-offering alternative attention when she asks for food:I follow her to the kitchen and run back staring a game of chase. I scoop her up and kiss her belly (she hates being scooped up but she can't protest since she got the attention). I talk sweet words. I throw toys around.

I'm doing this too, but then her attention goes back to the dishes

In the end, if Giada is healthy, ignore the unnecessary demands and don't give in.

Well, this is what I'm doing, but her meowing would make a saint curse

 

[Antonio65]

ladytimedramon ,

Those ridged toys might be a solution but, as I have said in another post of mine, I fear she would eat them too because of the remaining scent of food on them!

 

[ladytimedramon]

Perhaps you can glue something inside the existing bowl to slow her down. I've seen online where they put a smaller dish or empty can upside down inside the main dish (turning a regular bowl into something like a bundt pan) and the pet has to eat around the other bowl. I did a lot of research when figuring out how to slow down the beagle.

 

[Antonio65]

Perhaps you can glue something inside the existing bowl to slow her down.

Would slowing her down improve her constant hunger, anyway?
I mean, would she be less hungry if she eats more slowly?

 

[ladytimedramon]

Thats what my diet therapist said to me.

If it lasts longer, it affects your perception of fullness. Plus the longer it takes to eat it feels like there is more.

 

[ladytimedramon]

Took some pics to illustrate.

Regular food (using paper bowl because her dish is in the dishwasher) - these are perfect portions sizes with a little water added.



Same amount of food with small dish in the middle.


And Delilah eating


She has to work harder at eating and its slowing her down, which hopefully will make the food last longer and affect her fullness.

Since I started her timed feeder, she's eating less cat grass. You might also consider getting cat grass. I decided she was eating a salad and that was better than more kibble....

 

[Antonio65]

Nothing works, I tried with more food at each meal, more meals, sometimes three meals in just an hour, nothing works. She's hungry again as soon as she finishes her meal, and starts looking at me with the eyes of a long-starving cat.
She starts searching the house, smells at everything, licks stuff. If something has a chewable texture, then let's chew it, if it fits her mouth, she swallows it.
When she finds nothing of the above, she starts howling, screaming, jumping on table and counters, attacking my legs and hands.
She gets in trouble, and I fear that one of these days she gets in real trouble because she goes and touches dangerous places and things.

In the last week she had some bad poops, so we had it tested and the lab found roundworms(*), so the vet dismissed the issue as a consequence of the worms, but the worms are present now, she's been constantly hungry for several months.
The vet doesn't listen to me.
Unless one sees her in action, cannot believe what I'm talking about.

I feed about 20 feral cats daily, and I've been doing this for years now. And I've never seen a feral cat that hungry, despite they would be entitled to be always hungry. Nonetheless, all the feral cats I know are quiet, they sleep, they act as cats do, once that they have eaten. They don't look for food all day. I think that if Giada was a feral in the colony, she would have eaten 24/7, and this isn't normal at all.

(*)The cat isn't allowed out, the vet thinks that I carried the eggs of this worm under my shoes, or on my clothes, from outside, from my feral colony or from the two cats in my yard, so I'm treating her and the two outside with Stronghold.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Oh boy! I know that is not your 'real' issue, but did the vet say Stronghold would get rid of the current roundworms, or just prevent new ones? I always thought the cats had to be treated with (de)wormers, which are usually is a multi-week process (kills adults, and then wait for larvae to mature to also be killed). Also, as I understand it, until the roundworms are eradicated, Giada's litter box needs to be kept clean in order to help reduce the chances of reinfection.

The only thing I know to do is to go through the treatment process, verify the roundworms have been eradicated, and then video Giada's behavior to share with the vet (kind of like telling them: "See, I told you it wasn't the roundworms!!").

Did the vet ever do any testing to see if she has some sort of malabsorption/nutritional deficiency? This type of testing would go beyond the standard CBC/Chemistry Profile blood test. B12 deficiency is fairly common, although it seems to be found in older cats. But, that doesn't mean it isn't a genetic anomaly with Giada.

 

[ladytimedramon]

This may sound weird, but if it were a human they would be checking for Prader-Willi syndrome

Edit: I found a related thread here in a Google search

Prader Willi Syndrome in Cats

 

[She's a witch]

This does look like parasites to me, infested cats behave that way, as if something was eating all their food and nutrition, because that’s what happens. I think she’s had giardia before? And now roundworms, you don’t know how long - false negative fecal floats are way too common and they don’t always show any symptoms. I’d use a wide spectrum dewormer like Milbemax, at least two rounds, I agree with FeebysOwner that stronghold may not be enough for existing infestation. I’d stay positive that after the worms are treated, she’d feel better about this, hopefully! Fingers crossed!

 

[Antonio65]

Oh boy! I know that is not your 'real' issue, but did the vet say Stronghold would get rid of the current roundworms, or just prevent new ones? I always thought the cats had to be treated with (de)wormers, which are usually is a multi-week process (kills adults, and then wait for larvae to mature to also be killed). Also, as I understand it, until the roundworms are eradicated, Giada's litter box needs to be kept clean in order to help reduce the chances of reinfection.

This is a very good question, and I have no answer for it, I fear.
The vet was going to prescribe the Milbemax, or other pills/paste to be administered orally, but because I had to also treat the two cats outside, and one of them is really reluctant to be put stuff in her mouth, I asked him for something that wouldn't involve mouths.
Initially he prescribed another product, it is called Broadline, but it came out that the product is temporarily not produced, so we ended up with the Stronghold.
Anyway you made a good point!

The only thing I know to do is to go through the treatment process, verify the roundworms have been eradicated, and then video Giada's behavior to share with the vet (kind of like telling them: "See, I told you it wasn't the roundworms!!").

The hard part will be verify that roundworms are gone! How can that be done?
I mean, I should have another fecal test done, but it could be a false negative. Because if it's true, as She's a witch says, and Giada was having this issue since I have her, we could run several tests before something comes up.

Giada was treated with Broadline Kitten twice earlier this year, Jan and Feb, if I can remember it right, then she was treated for giardia three times, but nothing else came out from the tests.

Did the vet ever do any testing to see if she has some sort of malabsorption/nutritional deficiency? This type of testing would go beyond the standard CBC/Chemistry Profile blood test. B12 deficiency is fairly common, although it seems to be found in older cats. But, that doesn't mean it isn't a genetic anomaly with Giada.

No, the vet didn't, but he proposed an intestinal biopsy back in March, when the soft poop couldn't be fixed.
I guess that a malabsorption would show as a cat losing weight or being thinner than the normal?

 

[Antonio65]

This may sound weird, but if it were a human they would be checking for Prader-Willi syndrome

Edit: I found a related thread here in a Google search

Prader Willi Syndrome in Cats

That old thread was interesting.
What I think I have understood is that a cat (or other animal) with Prader-Willi syndrome will eat non-stop but would also be fat or overweight, while Giada is normal weight, she's a small sized cat and is 3.35 kg.
One of the first thoughts was that she's still living in the phase "I'm a feral kitty and I have to eat whenever is possible", and this can be true, because she came from an unpleasant situation. But when I had Pallina, she came from a colony where she had to fight for food, and in the first times she was with us, she would wolf down her food in a matter of seconds, probably because in her mind she was convinced that someone else could come and finish her meal. But she didn't look for food constantly. She would eat quickly when food was available, but then she would wait patiently for her next meal.
Someone also suggested me that she might have HT, but she's too young for that, and all other symptoms are missing.
Nonetheless, this is something that is worth investigating, though I don't know how it can be done in a pet.

 

[Antonio65]

This does look like parasites to me, infested cats behave that way, as if something was eating all their food and nutrition, because that’s what happens. I think she’s had giardia before? And now roundworms, you don’t know how long - false negative fecal floats are way too common and they don’t always show any symptoms. I’d use a wide spectrum dewormer like Milbemax, at least two rounds, I agree with FeebysOwner that stronghold may not be enough for existing infestation. I’d stay positive that after the worms are treated, she’d feel better about this, hopefully! Fingers crossed!

Thanks for your input.
I wonder, if she had these worms a long time, possibly since I have her, why didn't I find anything in her litter box or feces?

Milbemax was the vet's first choice, but because I had to treat the two other outdoor cats as well (as the vet suggested) I needed something that wouldn't require me to open a cat's mouth, because one of the two isn't happy at all when I touch her mouth, but doesn't fight if I hold her for a few seconds and apply the drops on her neck.
I wonder if I could switch/add Milbemax to Giada now that she's just got her drops on Saturday.

 

[FeebysOwner]

The vet was going to prescribe the Milbemax, or other pills/paste to be administered orally, but because I had to also treat the two cats outside, and one of them is really reluctant to be put stuff in her mouth,

I have no experience with (de)wormers, but I suspect that oral meds - either pills crushed, or liquid - are available and could be added to a little bit of the 'juice' from canned tuna or chicken in water. I would be surprised that the outdoor cats (and even Giada) would turn it down. (When giving Feeby meds this way, I always followed up with a piece of the tuna or chicken as a treat after the meds were gone.) If a method such as this could be done, your big issue, I suppose, would be ensuring both outdoor cats got the proper dosage.

The hard part will be verify that roundworms are gone! How can that be done? I mean, I should have another fecal test done, but it could be a false negative.

Yes, it is possible that Giada could test negative and still have roundworms. It is also possible, since she did in fact test positive before, that she would once again test positive if she weren't rid of them. Ask the vet if the full fecal PCR test would be any more reliable. I have also heard of cats that require numerous rounds of (de)wormers before they are rid of them. This might be part of your issue considering the outdoor cats and spreading the worms over and over again?

No, the vet didn't, but he proposed an intestinal biopsy back in March, when the soft poop couldn't be fixed. I guess that a malabsorption would show as a cat losing weight or being thinner than the normal?

I know a B12 deficiency can be tested for. I also think there is a more specialized test for checking for vitamin and mineral deficiencies. A serum biochemistry will check for cholesterol, triglycerides, total & specific proteins, and glucose levels, as well as calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, and chloride for the minerals that can be measured. Many labs will also include testing for an enzyme that evaluates muscle damage (and, of course, thyroid hormone levels). I am truly not sure about the rest of any possible deficiencies and whether there is any way to test them.

 

[Antonio65]

I would be surprised that the outdoor cats (and even Giada) would turn it down. (When giving Feeby meds this way, I always followed up with a piece of the tuna or chicken as a treat after the meds were gone.) If a method such as this could be done, your big issue, I suppose, would be ensuring both outdoor cats got the proper dosage.

You don't know Mamma cat
She doesn't even trust her normal and usual plain wet food in the morning and the day that I give her a different taste/brand, she stands suspicious, and sometimes she just walks away.

This might be part of your issue considering the outdoor cats and spreading the worms over and over again?

And we don't even know if they are the spreaders.

I know a B12 deficiency can be tested for. I also think there is a more specialized test for checking for vitamin and mineral deficiencies. A serum biochemistry will check for cholesterol, triglycerides, total & specific proteins, and glucose levels, as well as calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, and chloride for the minerals that can be measured. Many labs will also include testing for an enzyme that evaluates muscle damage (and, of course, thyroid hormone levels). I am truly not sure about the rest of any possible deficiencies and whether there is any way to test them.

I know of the B12 deficiency test, I required this test for Pallina three years ago.
And I can ask that electrolytes are added in the classic biochemistry panel, as I used to do with my previous cats in their last couple of years. The muscle damage also can be asked for, though a few times I found it included in routine tests.

 

[She's a witch]

Milbemax is coated with something yummy, my boy ate the pill straight from my hand. My girl though could not be fooled but I guess even with feral cats it could be hidden in their food since it’s flavored. For existing infestation my vet told me to repeat the treatment at least once after 10-14 days (even if the pill itself is supposedly effective for a month, she said after two weeks it’s enough to prevent it, but not to fight it, hence repeated doses). Since Giada has just had Stronghold, I’d wait 10-14 days and add Milbemax, and then maybe even repeat it after another 10-14 days (that’s what my vet did when we found our girl, she gave her Milbemax three times to ensure the roundworms are gone for good). I’d ask your vet what they think if it.

Because the fecal float can be so unreliable, back in Europe it wasn’t uncommon to just proactively deworm cats every 6 months or so, even with indoor only cats. Since I moved to US I learned that no one really does it here, for a good reason imo (so much chemicals, not even knowing if it’s needed). But in your case, since you deal with ferals, maybe that’s something to consider? I also know a breeder that uses diatomaceous earth as natural dewormer - you can read about it, it has risks so I’m not sure if I’d do that, but maybe worth looking into? I also know people who ask for fecals every 6 months but they bring samples every few days/weeks “hoping” one of them would catch a cyst if a cat is infested. But some of them also simply observe the cat and deworm if symptoms appear, and yes, increased, crazy appetite and always hungry cat is a classic symptom. I’m truly hoping that’s the case with Giada, not something worse!

 

[Antonio65]

Milbemax is coated with something yummy, my boy ate the pill straight from my hand. My girl though could not be fooled but I guess even with feral cats it could be hidden in their food since it’s flavored. For existing infestation my vet told me to repeat the treatment at least once after 10-14 days (even if the pill itself is supposedly effective for a month, she said after two weeks it’s enough to prevent it, but not to fight it, hence repeated doses). Since Giada has just had Stronghold, I’d wait 10-14 days and add Milbemax, and then maybe even repeat it after another 10-14 days (that’s what my vet did when we found our girl, she gave her Milbemax three times to ensure the roundworms are gone for good). I’d ask your vet what they think if it.

I think you gave me a good idea and I will ask the vet soon.
Anyway I think I'll have to force one of the two outdoor cats to eat it, because I'm more than sure she wouldn't take it on her own.

Because the fecal float can be so unreliable, back in Europe it wasn’t uncommon to just proactively deworm cats every 6 months or so, even with indoor only cats. Since I moved to US I learned that no one really does it here, for a good reason imo (so much chemicals, not even knowing if it’s needed). But in your case, since you deal with ferals, maybe that’s something to consider?

I will ask the vet about this too.

I also know a breeder that uses diatomaceous earth as natural dewormer - you can read about it, it has risks so I’m not sure if I’d do that, but maybe worth looking into? I also know people who ask for fecals every 6 months but they bring samples every few days/weeks “hoping” one of them would catch a cyst if a cat is infested

Yes, but it's a little annoying fro the owner and the vets too. Furthermore, running frequent tests might be expensive in the long run.

and yes, increased, crazy appetite and always hungry cat is a classic symptom. I’m truly hoping that’s the case with Giada, not something worse!

Thank you, we really need to fix this issue, she wakes us up at 5am, last meal is at midnight. She's granting us 5 hours of sleep per night, it's so kind of her...

 

[Antonio65]

I’d use a wide spectrum dewormer like Milbemax, at least two rounds, I agree with FeebysOwner that stronghold may not be enough for existing infestation.

I had forgotten to update this thread.
I asked the vet whether this Stronghold was good for treatment or it was for prevention only, and he said something that I should have known before, because it's written on the box ( ) and says "treatment AND prevention" of parasites of many kinds, including the Toxocara Cati.
So, apparently, the drops should be enough to treat and prevent this problem.