Expecting kittens

[orientalslave]

Yes mating induces ovulation, but I'm not sure it does in a female that's not calling - the hormones when she is are quite different to when she isn't and I have a feeling that even with being mated the hormones are not right out of call for ovulation to occur.

 

[eb24]

Okay clearly I have ZERO experience with adult male cats!!!! Glad to know I wasn't totally off base to begin with because I hate when I feel like I said something stupid. Thinking about it more rationally that does make sense that it would just depend on the cat- that some would be mellow enough to be around the ladies when they are not in heat while others just can't get their hormones under control no matter the circumstances. I have never been on the mating side of things- I just get the girls when they are bursting at the seams so I have never really given it a lot of thought. 

The downside is now that I am thinking about it my inquisitive lawyer side is kicking in and I have another question! So I think there are breeding guidelines that ethically you all follow. And, anytime you have an unaltered male and female in the same room "accidents" are a possibility (whether it be she goes into heat early or like Maewkaew is suggesting and some males can impregnate a female not in heat with enough persistence). What happens then? Do the "rules" dictate how many litters a queen can have in a season, or is it just dependent on the breeder's individual standards? 

Maewkaew: stud quarters like a pen? Or like a spare bedroom? Or does it just depend on the breeder? Are there ethical standards for this as well? I am not insinuating any of these cats are neglected I'm just curious if there are guidelines that dictate or if there is a lot of room for individual tailoring based on circumstance. If male cats are like my male friends all he needs is a TV and a comfy spot to sit and I'm sure he is a happy camper. 

Thanks for a further indulgence- I am finding this really interesting! And I don't mean to hijack your thread- just keeping it moving until the babies come. 

 

[orientalslave]

In the UK a stud house is like a large garden shed.  It has indoor and outdoor areas, it's made so it's easy to keep clean, it has a double door at the entrance, and there is a small inner pen for the queen so they can get to know each other without getting claw to claw.  It will have heating and lighting, some have CCTV and/or baby alarms so the stud owner knows what is going on, and maybe a TV and/or radio to keep the stud company.  Quite a few people have a neuter that lives out with the stud when he's not 'working'.

However I'm not sure what the cat equivalent of a crate of beer is - lots of men seem to need one of those to be happy!

How many litters a queen has depends on both her, her breed and on how easy it's being to get new homes for the kittens.  My friend had a Siamese queen and she stopped letting her have much of a rest between litters as she sailed through each pregnancy without losing condition - she lost more if let call and call without going to stud.  She loved kittens and was a great mother.  Another friend had a BSH female and she was limited to one litter a year or thereabouts.  That friend used small amounts of Ovarid to control her calling.

 

[missymotus]

Stud runs are outdoors here too, my boy is a kitten there's still plenty of time for him to spray, he also hasn't been around the girls unless in heat and for mating, he's just continued living part time with Charly afterwards. Girls I've sent out for mating have done the same, they enjoy each others company. Studs and girls can be friendly after the deed is done

Some boys won't tolerate a mate in the same pen altered or not, but are fine being in side by side runs with other working boys, so they see each other and have company but don't directly interact

The association I'm registered with allows 2 litters per queen, per year. Others are 2 litters in 18 months. There can be exceptions and the girls health is paramount. Things like singleton litters, or not raising the litter can mean remating sooner

I use acupressure to control my girls heat cycles, a vasectomised boy is another option for those who don't like using the pill. Many use the pill with no issues and I do believe small doses are the key, I choose not to at this point but each girl is different and not all react to methods the same way

 

[dshmom]

Beautiful cats!.Please share loads of pixs!.

 

[eb24]

The association I'm registered with allows 2 litters per queen, per year. Others are 2 litters in 18 months. There can be exceptions and the girls health is paramount. Things like singleton litters, or not raising the litter can mean remating sooner
I use acupressure to control my girls heat cycles, a vasectomised boy is another option for those who don't like using the pill. Many use the pill with no issues and I do believe small doses are the key, I choose not to at this point but each girl is different and not all react to methods the same way

I like that rule. Keeps them from being "overbred" with an exception for Mother's health, which is of course the most important. Sounds like a good balance of breed-wide standards with room for individual accommodations based on the cat. One follow up question: so what happens hypothetically if one of your girls gets pregnant for a third time in a year? Do you have to disclose that to the association? Would the litter be terminated or would you be fined? 

I have never heard of any of these methods for controlling heat cycles- that's crazy to think about a cat taking the birth control pill! Although I suppose with a committed breeder who is consistent in giving it it would be almost as effective as spaying, but without the permanency. I don't even know how you get your girls to sit still long enough for acupuncture- that is some serious commitment right there. I love these creative solutions that allow for responsible and controlled breeding!

In the UK a stud house is like a large garden shed.  It has indoor and outdoor areas, it's made so it's easy to keep clean, it has a double door at the entrance, and there is a small inner pen for the queen so they can get to know each other without getting claw to claw.  It will have heating and lighting, some have CCTV and/or baby alarms so the stud owner knows what is going on, and maybe a TV and/or radio to keep the stud company.  Quite a few people have a neuter that lives out with the stud when he's not 'working'.

It sounds like these indoor/outdoor runs are pretty sweet- spacious while meeting all their basic needs and then some. I get how it would depend on the cat if they can have a buddy around when not 'working.'

I think part of my interest is I am taking an animal law class and there seems to be a very fine line between legitimacy and abuse. For example: it may sound cruel to keep an animal in a pen but with the way you describe them they may be more spacious than what my fosters get here! A cat that is constantly pregnant would border on animal cruelty to me but by limiting the number of litters they can have shows the queens health and happiness comes first as opposed to just trying to have as many kittens as possible to make as much money as possible (and my guess is that you all have so much invested in your girls that you don't even make a profit on the kittens, but do it because you love it and are committed to the breed). It's the same with rescue- there is a fine line between fostering and hoarding. Again, not at all insinuating any of you are guilty of any of this, but rather studying the subject has piqued my interest as to how breeding is regulated and what the standards are. I really appreciate all the candid answers- to me that expresses how legitimate you all are and how passionate you are that you will take the time to educate a novice. I did read on one of the breeding links that a "true" breeder will be very open to questions whereas a backyard breeder becomes very defensive. I believe that! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrientalSlave  

However I'm not sure what the cat equivalent of a crate of beer is - lots of men seem to need one of those to be happy!

OMG this is how I'm going to make my millions- creating kitty beer! 

 

[missymotus]

so what happens hypothetically if one of your girls gets pregnant for a third time in a year? Do you have to disclose that to the association? Would the litter be terminated or would you be fined? 

A vets letter is needed to register the litter in that situation. 

Also, the US is far less governed than other countries. We, and Eurpope must sign and abide by a code of ethics and can be de-registered for not following them. The US's is optional.

Our rules include when kittens can leave, the age girls can first be mated, cross breeding is not allowed, breeding a registered cat to an unregistered cat is not allowed (even if the same breed), selling to pet shops or dealers is not allowed, cats that carry genetic defects (such as PKD) are not to be bred from....I won't list it all, I think you get the point  

I have never heard of any of these methods for controlling heat cycles- that's crazy to think about a cat taking the birth control pill! Although I suppose with a committed breeder who is consistent in giving it it would be almost as effective as spaying, but without the permanency. I don't even know how you get your girls to sit still long enough for acupuncture- that is some serious commitment right there. I love these creative solutions that allow for responsible and controlled breeding!

Owning a girl who's first call was before 4 months old, I needed to find something lol That's where having mentors, friends and other breeders to turn to is essential.

Acupressure (different to acupuncture) takes some practice, I had another breeder make a video to help me out when I couldn't get it right.  There's a pressure point under the tail, that when pressed correctly makes the girls think they've been mated. When they start calling an hour of treatment, followed again 12 hours later takes them off call for 8-10 weeks. 

In many parts of Europe all the cats live indoors together, the girls are usually on the pill and taken off for matings. I have photos of my German girl snuggled up with both her parents.  

For example: it may sound cruel to keep an animal in a pen but with the way you describe them they may be more spacious than what my fosters get here

Stud runs are made to be comfortable, and plenty of time is spent with the boys too. 

OMG this is how I'm going to make my millions- creating kitty beer! View media item 131482

 

[eb24]

A vets letter is needed to register the litter in that situation. 

Also, the US is far less governed than other countries. We, and Eurpope must sign and abide by a code of ethics and can be de-registered for not following them. The US's is optional.

Our rules include when kittens can leave, the age girls can first be mated, cross breeding is not allowed, breeding a registered cat to an unregistered cat is not allowed (even if the same breed), selling to pet shops or dealers is not allowed, cats that carry genetic defects (such as PKD) are not to be bred from....I won't list it all, I think you get the point  

This is true on so many things- why does the US claim to be so progressive when most of the time we are so backwards?!?!?!? 

I think that's awesome you have mentors and groups to affiliate with. I am with a shelter for fostering but when I took my first litter they gave me a one page handout on delivery and that was pretty much it. I WISH I had had a mentor to help me! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by missymotus  


Acupressure (different to acupuncture) takes some practice, I had another breeder make a video to help me out when I couldn't get it right.  There's a pressure point under the tail, that when pressed correctly makes the girls think they've been mated. When they start calling an hour of treatment, followed again 12 hours later takes them off call for 8-10 weeks. 

Oh yeah I definitely read that wrong! But seriously, just stop for a second and picture the visual I had in my head thinking it was acupuncture. It was you trying to hold your girl down with a bunch of needles sticking out of her and her looking at you like she was plotting your death. I thought you bordered on the crazy for that one! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by missymotus  


Stud runs are made to be comfortable, and plenty of time is spent with the boys too. 

Oh they sound plenty comfortable- I kind of want to live in one! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by missymotus  

Thankyou for your questions, it's nice to actually have a breeding discussion in the breeding section 

Thank you for not finding my questions irritating. Once I get interested in something I tend to totally devote myself into learning about it until my curiosity is satisfied and then move onto the next thing. I started looking at some websites but nothing beats a firsthand account! It's a perspective on cat owning I have never really given much thought to and I think has been really interesting to learn about. Fear not, I promise I won't start breeding strays out of my craphole apartment. Although clearly my Country could care less if I did.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by missymotus  


You'll make far more finding a use for cat spray 

 powerful stuff it can strip paint and eat through metal. And some girls hose more than boys.

Yes I am officially amending my million dollar idea. If I ever do it I'm going to fly to Australia and hug a koala bear (and don't even try to rain on my parade and tell me you don't hug koala bears on a daily basis- not even interested in that shenanigans). Maybe I'll be extra kind and buy you a coffee for letting me steal your idea! Or, we can fly together to that super secret location you and OS meet up at where you discuss top secret TCS ideas and how you will comment the exact same way on every person's post! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by missymotus  

Ashia is preparing for her kittens, I think they'll arrive over the weekend. She's bagged up, they've dropped, are very active and she's very clingy. Still eating a ton, but she tends to eat right up to delivery.

A photo taken with my phone last night

 I'm so excited to see pics of her litter! Please, please post them as soon as you take some! Wishing you and Ashia a safe delivery and healthy babies! 

 

[missymotus]

But seriously, just stop for a second and picture the visual I had in my head thinking it was acupuncture. It was you trying to hold your girl down with a bunch of needles sticking out of her and her looking at you like she was plotting your death. I thought you bordered on the crazy for that one! 

Oh, I had the same image! And I'm just crazy for other reasons 

Fear not, I promise I won't start breeding strays out of my craphole apartment. Although clearly my Country could care less if I did.....

I think I can find you a mentor for that 

(and don't even try to rain on my parade and tell me you don't hug koala bears on a daily basis- not even interested in that shenanigans)

Oh of course we do. 

Or, we can fly together to that super secret location you and OS meet up at where you discuss top secret TCS ideas and how you will comment the exact same way on every person's post! 

 

Please, please post them as soon as you take some! Wishing you and Ashia a safe delivery and healthy babies! 

Thank you, she's been sitting in her box all afternoon. Have told her to cross her legs as it's just gone 7pm, either hurry up or she can wait til morning. My girls are always very good at indulging me with photos right away, so proud to show off their little ones. 

 

[maewkaew]

I know some breeders who have stud houses with outdoor runs attached as has been described.   Others  have them in a room that is easy to clean in the breeder's house.  I know someone who just has one of her studs living in a part of the house because he doesn't spray, but he WOULD bother the girls so he is not out in their part of the house.  A human family member lives with him and gives him attention.   I know other breeders who have large walk-in cages with cat trees etc. in them.   One friend of mine has that, but lets him out for at least an hour every day to run around the rest of the house wearing  "stud pants" and supervised.

 As mentioned, in some countries the registries themselves have more control over.rules like how often cats can be bred.   but in the US some breed clubs have codes of ethics  that mention how often a cat can be bred.  Here are  some examples ( actually I think these are both international breed  clubs but started in the US.)   I'm giving 2 examples that are pretty detailed COEs

Maine Coon  http://www.mcbfa.org/coe.htm

Old Style Siamese ( Thai)  http://home.comcast.net/~bevjoe3/preossia/ethics.html

  Most commonly the limit is twice a year   ( or as the 2nd example says,  unless recommended by a qualified vet )

@ OS  re pregnancy if not in heat.  That is a very good point.  I had once heard a vet say that it is possible and always kept that in mind, but it was years ago, wasn't my current vet  and I did not get into a further discussion of how that works,  and it might be that vet was wrong.  Now that I think about it more,  it does seem like there would be a list of reasons why even if the tom manages to mate with her, it surely must be a lot less likely   due to the estrogens & effect on  follicles &  Fallopian tubes etc.   I've heard someone say that it happened with their cat,  but I don't  know  that it was not actually a silent heat.  or maybe there was something abnormal going on with that cat.  

@ MM --  Best wishes to Ashia and babies! 

 

[orientalslave]

... that super secret location you and OS meet up at where you discuss top secret TCS ideas and how you will comment the exact same way on every person's post! 

...

We just think the same way - great minds, and fools...

 

[eb24]

[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Fear not, I promise I won't start breeding strays out of my craphole apartment. Although clearly my Country could care less if I did.....[/color]

I think I can find you a mentor for that 

AAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA!!!!! Seriously your whole post was hilarious but this line has me rolling!!!!! Could I BE so lucky as to find one of these special mentors?!?!?!?!? 

 As mentioned, in some countries the registries themselves have more control over.rules like how often cats can be bred.   but in the US some breed clubs have codes of ethics  that mention how often a cat can be bred.  Here are  some examples ( actually I think these are both international breed  clubs but started in the US.)   I'm giving 2 examples that are pretty detailed COEs

Maine Coon  http://www.mcbfa.org/coe.htm

Old Style Siamese ( Thai)  http://home.comcast.net/~bevjoe3/preossia/ethics.html

  Most commonly the limit is twice a year   ( or as the 2nd example says,  unless recommended by a qualified vet )

Thank you for these links they are super interesting! While similar, it's intriguing how the standards vary among the associations. Example: the Maine Coon contract specifically states no kitten SHALL (in lawyer world "shall" has a very specific connotation- no if's, and's, or but's) leave the home prior to 12 weeks. For the Old Style Siamese however, it is recommended (but not mandated- their words) that a kitten not leave before 12 weeks (and may NEVER leave before 8 weeks). I wonder why the variation- certainly all kittens regardless of breed benefit from the extra time with Mom. Personally I did not like the use of the term "breeding stock" in the Maine Coon contract. That has a very negative association to me. Otherwise, they were both incredibly detailed and seemed to adequately emphasize animal health and welfare above all else. Thanks for sharing!!!!!

 

[missymotus]

We just think the same way - great minds, and fools...

We are of course the former!

Thanks for the links maewkaew, I only checked tica and cfa since that's where kittens are registered, that's where the COE should be. But it's nice to know there are clubs that have some rules. 

Could I BE so lucky as to find one of these special mentors?!?!?!?!? 

I think you could 

 

[speakhandsforme]

Any news?

 

[missymotus]

Still waiting, she's enjoying making me wait 

 

[williecat]

Beautiful girls! I hope Ashia is doing well with her babies by now.

 

[missymotus]

Beautiful girls! I hope Ashia is doing well with her babies by now.

Thank you We're still waiting, she's 3 days overdue now but doing well. 

 

[speakhandsforme]

Thank you We're still waiting, she's 3 days overdue now but doing well. 

Boo! :lol3: Tell her to hurry up, we want to see some spotted babies!!

 

[missymotus]

Hard to believe in that big belly was:

View media item 131928
View media item 131929
One chocolate silver boy.  

 

[Anne]

Congratulations! They're adorable!