Cat Introduction .... Failure?

[RocketPuppy97]

Fast update:

Feeding went normal. Didn't move the Bowl as close as the last time, didn't want to stress them out. Monty was more relaxed as I expected, he didn't eat fast and he was sitting down proberly with his tail flat on the ground. He wasn't looking over to Cosmo more than usual.
After eating he climbed the door twice, but Cosmo didn't seem to be bothered at all? He had a long stretch right in front of the door (butt up and everything) and started grooming himself without looking at what Monty was doing at the door.
If no peeing incident happens today, I would be pretty happy, because that would mean Cosmo really wasn't bothered.

 

[calicosrspecial]

After good work yesterday and the day before

We had a pretty rough morning today. One of them managed to get the door open, I don't know if it was not closer proberly or if one of them jumped on the door handle, but suddenly we had a thrown down Cosmo next to us in the hallway. It was really fast. I grabbed Monty and my bf grabbed Cosmo and brought him back in his room.
Being hungry is not the best time to meet another cat. Monty woke us up around 5:45 and they don't get food until 6:30 ( we don't want to be awake even earlier) and while we were in the bathroom one of them managed to get this fricking door open.
I'm pretty sad about it. Cosmo seems normal, he's watching my cockroaches in their tank

Monty is making more shenanigans at the door but does seem normal otherwise

PLEASE do not be sad. It happens but it sounds like there are positives in this and it tells me they are doing better than you may think. I know it is disappointing and not what we want be really, it is not that big of a deal.

But first, what exactly happened if you saw it. Which cat left "their" territory and where was the encounter? In whose territory? Did you see their body language? Did the one cat attack the other or was it more of an accidental encounter that surprised both of them and then they got into it? Was there any fur flying? Was there any blood?

PLEASE be careful grabbing them when they are in this kind of encounter. They don't know what they are doing and can hurt humans. Maybe use a pillow or a big piece of cardboard or call their names (in a calm confident but demanding voice). Things like that. Just so no one gets hurt.

This happens BUT we watch how fast they rebound in order to determine how serious it may have been. The fact they rebounded quickly is a BIG positive and tells me that it was probably more of an accidental surprise issue that got out of control rather than something more serious. And their previous encounters suggest that as well.

But if you know exactly what happened before and during that encounter it would be very helpful but I know it happens really fast so I understand if you don't know.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Fast update:

Feeding went normal. Didn't move the Bowl as close as the last time, didn't want to stress them out. Monty was more relaxed as I expected, he didn't eat fast and he was sitting down proberly with his tail flat on the ground. He wasn't looking over to Cosmo more than usual.
After eating he climbed the door twice, but Cosmo didn't seem to be bothered at all? He had a long stretch right in front of the door (butt up and everything) and started grooming himself without looking at what Monty was doing at the door.
If no peeing incident happens today, I would be pretty happy, because that would mean Cosmo really wasn't bothered.

I wanted handle each post separately.

GREAT!! That picture is perfect and you handled it extremely well. It sounds like they rebounded quickly which is exactly what we want. No lingering fear or concerns. SO there is trust between them and it suggests that what happened (the negative encounter) was something that caught them by surprise rather than something more serious. It was different, they each didn't exactly know what the intent was and there was mis-interpretation and a negative encounter happened. But I think they realize the other one didn't really want to hurt them.

Do you think Monty is climbing the door because he wants to play? It doesn't seem aggressive. Step up play with Monty so he can drain some excess energy and keep making positive associations using food. We'll get there.

I am really interested in hearing which cat charged the other cat. I am guessing Monty got out and charged Cosmo. The fact Cosmo is acting so well tells me he knows Monty does not want to hurt him which is great. And if there was no fur or blood (which I don;t think there was) it tells me Monty didn't want to hurt Cosmo.

I don't think we will get any peeing.

But PLEASE try not to be stressed, stay calm and confident so they can take on your emotions and feel calmer and less stressed.

Don;t worry, if it happened like I think Cosmo is doing REALLY WELL. Monty still needs a little more confidence and positive associations and trust but that is normal for a resident/existing cat.

I am not worried, we are still on track and we will succeed. Keep up the great work and feel free to update or ask any questions.

 

[RocketPuppy97]

But first, what exactly happened if you saw it. Which cat left "their" territory and where was the encounter? In whose territory? Did you see their body language? Did the one cat attack the other or was it more of an accidental encounter that surprised both of them and then they got into it? Was there any fur flying? Was there any blood?

Cosmo left his territory (the bedroom) and entered Monty's territory. There are two options of what could have happened.
First: the door wasn't closed properly and got kicked open by either one of them climbing the door or jumping at it, which caused it to swing open leaving both cats confused. So Cosmo would walk out the door because he sees no problem and hungry, moody Monty tackles him right away.

Second: one of them accidentally jumped at the door handle and opened the door that way.

I didn't see their body language, I just saw Monty throwing down Cosmo and immidiatley grabed him. They are both never aggressive towards us and I'm just to handling aggressive cats due to my work.
There was no fur flying or blood.

I know, I know it always looks way worse than it really is, but I was just shocked because something like this didn't happen for a long time.

Do you think Monty is climbing the door because he wants to play? It doesn't seem aggressive. Step up play with Monty so he can drain some excess energy and keep making positive associations using food. We'll get there.

I can't really tell why he's doing it. We play with him every day before dinner (with both of them in front of the door to be exact) and sometimes he'll even do it when we played more with him. I think he just doesn't really know how to act with other cats really. We don't really know where he came from. We think he ran outside as a kitten or was just abandoned by his first owner. Mayber he wasn't much in contact with other cats.

I also forgot to post another video I made today.
This was right after the incident this morning, after I fed them.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Very interesting. Cosmo went into Monty's territory. I did not expect that. It is udnerstandable that Monty "defended his" territory. It tells me also that Cosmo does not fear Monty (the video also tells me this).

GREAT that there was no fur or blood. VERY good. And also that it could be ended quickly.

Yes, it is understandable to be shocked. But I can understand how it happened and it is also understandable. We still need to build Monty's confidence more and we also need to distract him a bit if you sense he is getting a little too focused on Cosmo. So if you sense that maybe Monty is a little too focused say something like "It's ok" in a calm confident tone. Anything to break his focus.

The video was REALLY helpful in helping me understand what is going on. Monty actually seems really good and looks to me like he wants to play for the most part. He is still lacking a little confidence but overall he looks really good. The both seem to have a lot of energy so if you can step up play a little then it could drain some.

Cosmo is a little bigger than Monty, correct?

How old do you think they are?

Let's go through the video:

Starts off really good, Monty eating, Cosmo grooming. Very good body language. The at :31 he says let's have some fun and climb. Cats like to climb so that is normal. Cosmo is over by the bookcase and doesn't mind. I am guessing Monty wants to get Cosmo's attention to play bu doesn't get a reaction. But then after Monty is off the door we see Cosmo's tail starting to move so now we have a reaction. Might be because Monty is staring. At this point I would personally try to calm the situation. "It's ok" in a calm confident voice. Distract as needed to reduce any tension. Watch the tail movements. At 1:13 we see Cosmo starting to walk to the gate and Monty backs away so there seems to be a little fear/caution. Again, I would distract. Let them now it is ok. Get them to look at you and not each other. Then we get the looking around the corner at each other. At 1:28 Cosmo walks past the gate and Monty kind of charges but it looks like playfully. Cosmo's tail goes straight up. Cosmo's body language really positive. Doesn't seem like her fears Monty. I can't see all of Monty's body language.

At 1:55 we now seem to be with Monty. His tail start swishing so it is a little more excited Monty. At 2:04 he crouches down. Seems like it is playful. Then he lays down and he seems pretty good and he looks to the camera. Body language looks good. Tail starts swishing so he is getting excited. At 2:35 he starts looking up, not exactly sure why. Looks like he wants to climb it, he does tail swish a little but then walks away. Positive. He walks to the camera with his tail straight up. GREAT. A hand is offered and he runs away then turns around and climbs the gate. He looks like he wants to play. Energy. Tail swishes because he is excited. He looks back to say "put down the camera and play with me". A hand is offered and he runs to create some play. Probably thinking "chase me, let's play".

Then at 3:11 Cosmo is at the gate and Monty wants to play. Comes up to the gate. Paws underneath wanting Cosmo to play. Monty's tail is up, body language good. Cosmo doesn't want to play, walks away confidently, not at all worried about Monty. Cosmo seems to know it is innocent play. You can see Monty seems disappointed. His tail swishes a little then he walks away and Cosmo comes back to the door. Cosmo may have called Monty and Monty comes to the door but Cosmo walks away. Then Monty gets into a lower position (I think playful). then Cosmo says "I will put my front paws on the gate" (I would tell Monty it is ok here, distract him at this point if possible) and Monty jumps on the gate ( I would have liked to avoid this but it didn't seem that negative) and Cosmo goes away and video ends.

So overall, I learned that Monty seems to really want to play but he still doesn't totally trust Cosmo and needs a little more confidence and more positive encounters. So distracting Monty before he seems to charge the gate etc is a good idea. And stepping up play with Monty to drain some of that energy (which I know is hard).

But I think you are getting really close. I understand why they had their negative encounter (the cause was better than the scenario I thought it was). Meaning, when a cat goes into "your" territory then they will defend especially when they are still lacking confidence.

Cosmo looks REALLY confident and really good which is going to be very helpful. Cosmo does not seem to worry about Monty as a threat.

The resident/existing cat usually has the more difficult time adjusting BUT Monty looks like he is doing really well. We just need to fine tune building his confidence more and continuing to make positive associations. Keep moving the food bowls closer when they eat as long as they eat and don't bother the other cat (distract as needed).

At some point I would like to see if Monty will eat in Cosmo's territory (just inside) and fairly close to Cosmo's bowl. Maybe in a few days. As long as they feeding is going well and the bowls are close and there is no negativity.

So overall, I think you are doing great, still on track, and the video was reall positive and helpful. We have some work with Monty but you are getting very close. Well done!!

Finally, can you put a cat tree near the door/gate for Monty? If you have an extra one.

 

[KarenF]

I've been watching/reading this thread with a lot of interest, as I am in week 10 of a loooong slow introduction (just started feeding them with open doors a couple weeks ago - cat distance has advanced from 20 feet apart to about 10), and it's really helpful to see your interpretation of these things with the video explanations.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thank you. I am so glad that it may be helpful.

Cat intros can take a month to over a year. Just take it at the pace where it maximizes the positives and minimizes the negatives. Making those positive associations. Building that trust between them. Once they feel like the other cat is not a physical threat or a threat to their food, water, etc then we succeed.

It is really like dating, it takes time to get to know the other "cat" and to build that trust. And as long as things are going well in small steps then the relationship can move forward. But if negatives start setting in it takes more time.

Cats take on our emotions so try to be as calm and confident as possible around them as that can help them feel like all is well.

Here are some links that could be helpful:

How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide

The Do's and Don'ts of Introducing Cats | Tips & Tricks | Jackson Galaxy Store

If you ever have any questions etc please feel free to message or start a new thread (letting me know it is up). The only issue is I have to be away for 3+weeks beginning Aug 31 and will not have access to the internet but can always respond when I am back.

It sounds like you are doing the right things. It really comes down to knowledge and desire. If you have both it is highly likely you will succeed. Hang in there, the reward is well worth it.

 

[RocketPuppy97]

Cosmo is a little bigger than Monty, correct?

How old do you think they are?

Yeah, Cosmo is a bit bigger than Monty. He has very long legs.

We think Monty is about one year old, he grew quite a bit so we think he was around 8 month old when we got him.

Cosmo is, according to what his previous owner said, 1,5 years old.

Finally, can you put a cat tree near the door/gate for Monty? If you have an extra one.

You can't really see it in the video but just three feet away from the door is a cat tree, it's right next to our bed and allows a very good view at the gate. On the otherside of the door right next to it is a window scill.


We had no peeing incident after the throw down!
Monty is starting to cuddle more with us again, every morning he tries to wake us up with purring.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Cosmo's behavior is really good for helping Monty build confidence. It is very good he acts the way he does and that is very helpful.

Great on the cat tree.

YES!!! Cosmo is showing more confidence AND that tells me that he is not really afraid of Monty which is great. And that was reinforced by the fast rebound from the incident.

GREAT than Monty is wanting love. The fact he is purring is really positive. He is going to be fine. Just keep building his confidence and making positive associations. Keep feeding close by and moving a little closer. Makes sure you distract if it looks like it might get negative.

I am not worried. It was unfortunate that it happened but it seems like they got over it really well which is a great sign. We just need to get Monty to be a little more confident and a little more territorially secure and I am confident that will happen.

Keep up the great work!!! Ask anything, anytime.

 

[RocketPuppy97]

Sorry for my lack of updates. Life has been a little crazy lately
We keep up the work. Feeding them at the door and feeding them in each others territory. It's been pretty good so far.
My boyfriend said that he played with Monty yesterday and after that he was playing with Cosmo, and Monty was laying on his side right at the door blinking and gently pawing under the door. Not his usual "I'm gonna hit your paw, play with me" kind.

And today, Cosmo was so comfortable while being handfed treats he was laying down and eating.

(I don't know why it's upside down?)
Monty was really relaxed too, not feeling threatened or like Cosmo would take his food away and they were really close.

 

[calicosrspecial]

No need to apologize. Totally understandable. Life can get busy.

GREAT job!! You both are getting them to trust the other cat. I love to hear that the body language is relaxed and positive.

Cosmo is laying on his side with Monty right there?!?!?!?!? GREAT!!! No cat that feels threatened would be so vulnerable with the other cat. And the fact Monty behaved so well and most have had really positive body language is a great positive as well.

And Monty is eating (something positive) with Cosmo right there and only positives happen. No worry about being attacked or his food being taken away.

This is EXACTLY what we are looking for. When we see them not paying attention to each other and focusing on something else. Positive encounters. And as they both sense positives and no threat they relax more which leads to more trust.

Keep doing what you are doing. Distract them if you sense any tension or potential negativity and keep watching their body language. So watch how they carry themselves, how they look at each other, how they look away from each other, if they turn their back on them, or lay on their side or back, etc. Watch if they have any tension or are relaxed.

Now, I do have to be way for several weeks and will not have access to the internet during that time so just keep doing what you are doing and post anytime and I can catch up when I can be back. But given how well you are doing I think you will be fine. Just trust your instincts and keep up the great work. We'll do more after I am back and get these guys together.

GREAT work!!

 

[RocketPuppy97]

Today happend something really amazing, both of them were finishing their dinner. They look up and at each other and start sniffing their faces, no tension what so ever. Cosmo was trilling (like he always does, because he's the friendliest cat ever) and started to held his head lower.

We seperated them calmly to keep the encounter 100% positive.
It was truly amazing!

I'll keep this thread updated while you are away, and maybe a miracle happens and they are best friends when you are back

 

[calicosrspecial]

AWESOME!!!

Exactly what we want. GREAT work!!

Way to end it on a positive note. Feel free to tell them "Good Boy" or some other confident and loving statement. Reinforce the positive after the encounter. A treat, love, something positive.

There are always steps back but watching how they rebound from a negative encounter tells us a lot. And I know you can handle anything. Just keep up the great work and keep building their confidence and those positive associations and positive encounters.

I am not at all worried. You have the knowledge and the desire and I don't think we need a miracle (we'll save that for when we need it). They are going to be just fine. We have more work but success is in sight.

Keep up the great work and keeping up the thread is a great idea.

REALLY great work. I am so proud of you, your boyfriend, Cosmo and Monty!! You all have really done a great job!!

 

[RocketPuppy97]

They had dinner this evening and after they cleaned out their bowls they wnet in for a sniff again and both walked away into their own territory. I was changing the water in Cosmo's room as I noticed Monty coming back in the room and moving towards Cosmo. It seemed like Monty wanted to do this Dominance thing agai where he bites his neck. I seperated them immidietly and I don't think it was that negative, because they both sat near the door and started grooming themselves.
I just thought it was odd, because they had a nosegreet, it was great they both walked away and then he tried that.

 

[calicosrspecial]

GREAT!! The sniff then a walk away. That is great.

Well, my ferals who love each other do that. They want to try to assert their dominance over the other. Ideally, we want that to end and I think it will with Monty but it just tells us we still have a little work to do building confidence, making positive associations (feeding), making positive encounters.

You did the right thing to end it (distract) in a positive way. And avoiding a negative encounter is a positive. The fact they both sat at the door grooming tells me everything was done well!! They were fine after. How they act after situations tells us a lot and this tells me they are doing well.

It really isn't that uncommon. It doesn't happen often but some cats do that. Two of my ferals in my colony do this, they have that competitive issue but they recover right away. I end it and then make a positive encounter. As long as no one is hurt or acting differently (hiding, etc) then it isn't the worst (but we don't want it to happen if possible).

So don't worry, I am not worried at all. Keep up the great work making positive associations (feeding), positive encounters, building confidence (play, food, height and love) and watch how they respond. Watch their body language.

I am sadly going to be away for 3 weeks but please post things as they happen and I will catch up when I am back. Overall, I think you are doing great, just keep up the great work. Once I am back we will take it another step forward.

 

[Somebody]

I dont have much experience, my situation was always different since my cats met for a year or longer through the screen door in the garden before I took the second in, so it wasn't that bad.
One thing I would do though is put plastic nails on both cats to prevent serious injuries. You can do that yourself or many vets offer this service if you provide a pack of nail covers

 

[RocketPuppy97]

I dont have much experience, my situation was always different since my cats met for a year or longer through the screen door in the garden before I took the second in, so it wasn't that bad.
One thing I would do though is put plastic nails on both cats to prevent serious injuries. You can do that yourself or many vets offer this service if you provide a pack of nail covers

Thanks for the tip! But I don't think that would be necessary, they weren't fighting that bad.




For a short update:
They are both behaving quite well. I'm still handfeeding them treats and they had small nose greeting situations once or twice. Their behaviour at the door improved aswell, they climb the door when they're either really really excited or hungry. So it's not happening all that often anymore.

Cosmo formed a new habit where he pees on the mat Infront of the litter box in the bedroom. We don't know when he does it and we also don't know why. We don't think it's an urinaryinfection or anything like that, because most of the time he uses the litter box like normal. I often notice the mat beeing wet right before I'm going to bed.



But overall our situation improves slowly. It's just a matter of time now.

 

[RocketPuppy97]

Today I catched him peeing on the mat infront of the litterbox. Nothing was up today. He got lots of cuddles. Monty left the door completly alone. No room for negative interactions between the two of them. No fight in the household. Nothing. Everthings was as it has always been.
He's just demanding food. The only thing is he's hungry. But we don't feed him when he demands it. It's 7 o'clock and they get fed on 7:30. Everyday. It's nothing new.
I played with him and went in the kitchen to eat dinner. Now I come back and I see him scratching on the mat like he would bury it.

I just thought his peeing got better. But clearly it's not and I don't know why. I'm really irritated.

Everything else between him and Monty is going fine, hadn't had a major incident in a while. It's slowly coming together, but this peeing has to stop.

 

[RocketPuppy97]

Cosmo is becoming quite the escaper. We now had two incidents where he either climbed over the door while someone was opening it or dashes right out after finishing eating. Monty's hunting instincts (as I call them) set in as soon as Cosmo runs past him. Today I catched Monty mids running after him, I was surprised how more or less calm he was. My bf catched Cosmo and brought him back in the bedroom and Monty was acting all normal again.
The other time (last week?) we didn't reacted fast enough and Monty ran after Cosmo and on to the Cattower, I don't know exactly what they were doing but it seemed like Monty wanted to dominate Cosmo. Seperated them immidiatley and other than being a little hyperactive nothing happend. They weren't acting up at the door, noone peed and I could just handfeed them treats in the same room that day. So they rebound very very quick.
Just don't really know how to handle the next step and if they are ready

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thanks for the tip! But I don't think that would be necessary, they weren't fighting that bad.




For a short update:
They are both behaving quite well. I'm still handfeeding them treats and they had small nose greeting situations once or twice. Their behaviour at the door improved aswell, they climb the door when they're either really really excited or hungry. So it's not happening all that often anymore.

Cosmo formed a new habit where he pees on the mat Infront of the litter box in the bedroom. We don't know when he does it and we also don't know why. We don't think it's an urinaryinfection or anything like that, because most of the time he uses the litter box like normal. I often notice the mat beeing wet right before I'm going to bed.



But overall our situation improves slowly. It's just a matter of time now.

I am back. I am going to take each post separately.

Peeing on the mat in front. Going outside of the litter box happens because of medical issues (infection, pain) or behavioral (territorial insecurity, negative association, stress, etc).

A vet visit is a good idea to try to rule out medical issues (though pain can be difficult to find since cats have a high tolerance).

If it isn't medical then behavioral can be the issue. BUT it is hard to find the cause. So I always then look to build confidence. So I step up play (especially by where they are going outside. Then feed after. Also, I step up love, helping them de-stress, etc.

Is it possible to add a new litter box in a separate area of the room? Maybe it is the location of the current box, or that box, or that area.

Also, make sure you clean the area with an enzymatic cleaner. Cat pee is hard to clean so proper cleaning to get the scent away is very important.

Also, try to observe him to see any change in body language, or change in the way they carry themselves, etc (both for pain indications and for confidence indications).

I am back now so we can go back and forth to solve this.