Breed Vs Purebred

[stealthkitty]

Oh, I see. Yes, I agree that legitimate breeders are not the cause of the overpopulation problem. Even if they were all to stop their breeding programs, the overpopulation problem would continue unabated. Not a lot we can do to help the mentally sick see it that way.

 

 

[AbbysMom]

After a brief hiatus from the board, this thread has once again been edited and returned.  There is a lot of valuable information in this thread and we would like to keep it on the board, so can we please all abide by the rules so it doesn't have to be removed again? 

As far as the rules go, while I fairly certain that all of you that have participated in the thread so far have seen the guidelines for the Breeder's Forum, for those of you that are just joining the thread there is a sticky at the top of the forum.  Please review them before posting.

There are a few parts of the guidelines I would like to highlight. 

While many have strong views about the issue of breeding, and while some may even present valid arguments, this is not the appropriate forum to voice your views.

While the title of the thread would seem to invite debate, this is not the place to debate if breeding is morally right.   I don't feel the line has been crossed yet.  Let's please keep it that way.  If you would like to debate this subject, the IMO forum is the proper place for it.  Feel free to either start a new thread there or dredge up one of the many old threads on this subject.

The next thing I would like to highlight:

Nor is it appropriate to try and belittle someone or otherwise try to flame them for something they have posted.

I have spent way too much time in the past two days removing posts of this nature.   This isn't the forum for it.  

If you have an issue with something someone has posted, please report it and do not respond in the thread.  If you are not sure how to report a post, the instructions are here:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/185265/attention-how-to-report-spam-or-other-objectionable-posts-to-us

Please keep in mind that the Mods are volunteers, that are spread out over many time zones and do have lives of their own.   Give us time to respond.   The quickest way to get a response is to report a post as outlined in the link above.   Team members can also be contacted in the following ways:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/249618/how-and-when-to-get-in-touch-with-the-tcs-team-members

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/106807/if-you-need-to-email-one-of-our-mods

 

[AbbysMom]

My

-

If I wanted to, I could go down to the local pet store today and buy a registered purebred kitten.  I could also go to another local pet store and buy a kitten that is being sold as a purebred and is not registered.   For personal reasons (which I think some rescuers would understand) my next cat may very well be a purebred.   Prior to joining TCS I would have thought nothing of running down to the local pet shop and buying one of these purebred kittens.  It's only through the education that I have received on this site that I realize that the above practices are wrong.   Many, many people are not educated on this subject and we all need to keep this in mind.   It's the same as with declawing in the US - it's been an acceptable practice for years and many don't realize how wrong it is.   I didn't know before joining this site.  

I'm rambling because I haven't had enough coffee yet, but there are flaws in the system, at least in the US and I would also guess in other countries.  It is the goal of this site to educate.  We all need to keep this in mind and to expect that members need to be taught, in a friendly manner.  Nothing will change if people are not aware that there is a problem.

 

[tobytyler]

Oh, I see. Yes, I agree that legitimate breeders are not the cause of the overpopulation problem. Even if they were all to stop their breeding programs, the overpopulation problem would continue unabated. Not a lot we can do to help the mentally sick see it that way.

 

Yes, that is correct. 

Thank you for following this thread and realizing the difference between Back Yard Breeders and those professionals who are dedicated to the responsible breeding for the preservation and enhancement of a breed.

I am sure some would rather see these rare cats go extinct rather than become educated in the matter and learn the realities of their misguided mind set. 

Often, those crusading about the "horrible animal welfare in this country"are only exasperating this horrible reality by becoming hoarders who hide behind the veil of 'rescue' and fail to understand that harboring multiple animals in squalor is abuse. 

 

[threepawma]

This is the third time I have tried to post in this thread, each time I have clicked "submit" the darn thing has been pulled for editing and I have lost all my work.

I have been following this discussion with much interest, because I, like some others, am confused a little by some of the distinctions being drawn about purebred cats. Admittedly, I am far more familiar with the dog fancy then the cat fancy and I know that there must definitely be differences between the two, but I also know that there has to be some common territory. So, I have some real life scenarios to share and questions to pose.

Six months ago a bonded sibling pair of senior, 12 year old, Persians were surrendered to a local no-kill shelter. They were in pretty rough shape, but a back story was provided. They belonged to an elderly lady who had deteriorated in health and become unable to provide the proper attention they needed. When their owner passed away her family wanted nothing to do with the kitties and intended to take them to the pound. A close friend of their owner knew how special they had been to her and took pity on them, bringing them into the no-kill shelter. When they were purchased they were registered with CFA, coming from championship lines and having the documented pedigree to prove it. For various reasons the papers were not found and so these two "lost" their papers. Certainly, someone could apply to CFA to get copies of their pedigree, but there is no way to "prove" that these cats are the cats that were registered. They were not microchipped or tattooed by their breeder, the original owner had died and beyond the description that was provided when they were registered (they have fairly "generic" coloration) there is nothing to conclusively "prove" they are the cats in question. Because of this, do they now become moggies? Can they only be referred to as "cats that resemble Persians"? Without paperwork they suddenly no longer become purebred? That is the part that confuses me.

In the dog world, we would NEVER say that a dog who obviously is a certain breed is not purebred simply because they lack papers. As someone else pointed out, a Rottweiler is a Rottweiler is a Rottweiler, whether they come from BYBs or mills or not. Certainly there are mixes and such, but there are absolutely purebreds out there who are not "papered." Instead, how we would distinguish between the two is saying "registered" versus "unregistered." The vast majority of dogs that come into breed specific rescues are unregistered and yet I have never met someone who would argue that they are not the breed that is claimed. Given this as a background I hope people in the cat fancy can understand why their way of operation is a bit confusing for those of us that are most likely more familiar with dogs. Of course, as has been pointed out perhaps a lot of this discrepancy has to do with how small the registered population of purebred cats is to the general population in comparison to how large the population of registered dogs is.

I also want to point out that CFA in the USA does not have mandatory cattery inspections, either for initial registration nor for renewals. They have a completely voluntary inspection program. For prospective fur-parents I think it is important to note that CFA does provide a distinction for catteries that have opted for inspection. Such catteries are either labeled as a "CFA Approved Cattery" or a "CFA Cattery of Excellence", with "Excellence" meeting a more rigorous set of standards. So, when researching for breeders I think it is important that we all look out for these labels. I think it is also important that we all remember that the best line of defense in choosing a breeder is paying a personal visit to their cattery. Sometimes this isn't always possible, but there is always the option of contacting a breed club that is local to the breeder and a member would probably be willing to check it out for you. In fact, I would be willing to bet it wouldn't necessarily even have to be a breed club for the breed in question. I know that my French Bulldog club has been contacted a couple of times about kennel visitation and members have volunteered to do just that for buyers we have never known and will never meet. Moreover, I think most of us would even been willing to check out a cattery for someone, even though we are "dog people" simply because we know how important that personal visit can be. People can be very convincing if the only thing you have is phone conversations to go on. Of course, if someone did ask one of us "dog people" to check out a cattery I am not entirely sure we would know what the heck to look for!

 

 

[tobytyler]

Welcome

Thanks so much for trying so many times to post and hanging in there! 

Chances are, those kitties can actually be traced, there is always a paper trail if they were CFA registered.   But again, without the proof, it is heresay whether they were actually registered, regardless. 

 

[stealthkitty]

This is the third time I have tried to post in this thread, each time I have clicked "submit" the darn thing has been pulled for editing and I have lost all my work.

<snip>

Six months ago a bonded sibling pair of senior, 12 year old, Persians were surrendered to a local no-kill shelter. <snip> When they were purchased they were registered with CFA, coming from championship lines and having the documented pedigree to prove it. For various reasons the papers were not found and so these two "lost" their papers. Certainly, someone could apply to CFA to get copies of their pedigree, but there is no way to "prove" that these cats are the cats that were registered. <snip> Because of this, do they now become moggies? Can they only be referred to as "cats that resemble Persians"? Without paperwork they suddenly no longer become purebred? That is the part that confuses me.

In the dog world, we would NEVER say that a dog who obviously is a certain breed is not purebred simply because they lack papers. As someone else pointed out, a Rottweiler is a Rottweiler is a Rottweiler, whether they come from BYBs or mills or not. Certainly there are mixes and such, but there are absolutely purebreds out there who are not "papered." Instead, how we would distinguish between the two is saying "registered" versus "unregistered."

<snip>

LOL, yes, this thread has gotten wild & wooly at times! It seems like it's going to start behaving itself now, though.

I've been giving a lot of thought to the question that you and others have raised about what happens to a purebred cat when it loses its papers. At first glance, it seems as illogical as saying that a car that is obviously a Ferrari isn't a Ferrari (or shouldn't decisively be called a Ferrari) because it's missing the decals with the Ferrari logo & name. But upon further thought, I think it's more like the following example: Picture living 200 years ago. A person shows up out of the blue, claiming to belong to the royal family. He looks exactly like Prince Humperdink and the royal family acknowledges that there is a branch of the family that years ago moved to Guilder and that it's possible that the man in question is truly family. However, no way are they going to accept him as their long-lost family member with full titles and benefits without any type of proof that he actually is who he says he is. He himself might know without a doubt that he is of the royal family, but proving it to others is still necessary for him to be fully accepted. If the analogy is inaccurate, can someone help with a better one?

I can't really comment on how it is in the world of dog fancy, but if it is markedly different than the world of cat fancy in this aspect, perhaps--like you said--it is because there are so few purebred cats that extra precautions must be taken to preserve the bloodline and prevent it from getting "diluted." Then again, maybe it's not different at all in dog fancy and someone who was deeply involved in breeding and showing dogs would disagree about calling a dog a rottweiler just because it closely resembles one? You mention you belong to a French Bulldog club--what does that entail? Are the people there breeders, or do they own show dogs, or are they simply enthusiasts?

 

[tobytyler]

LOL, yes, this thread has gotten wild & wooly at times! It seems like it's going to start behaving itself now, though.

I've been giving a lot of thought to the question that you and others have raised about what happens to a purebred cat when it loses its papers. At first glance, it seems as illogical as saying that a car that is obviously a Ferrari isn't a Ferrari (or shouldn't decisively be called a Ferrari) because it's missing the decals with the Ferrari logo & name. However, I think it's more like the following example: Picture living 200 years ago. A person shows up out of the blue, claiming to belong to the royal family. He looks exactly like Prince Humperdink and the royal family acknowledges that there is a branch of the family that years ago moved to Guilder and that it's possible that the man in question is truly family. However, no way are they going to accept him as their long-lost family member with full titles and benefits without any type of proof that he actually is who he says he is. He himself might know without a doubt that he is of the royal family, but proving it to others is still necessary for him to be fully accepted. If the analogy is inaccurate, can someone help with a better one?

I am laughing so hard at the name Prince Humperdink.  It would be a purrrrfect name for a Manx. 

Yes, IMO that is a very good analysis of the situation!  Thank You

 

[northernglow]

This is the third time I have tried to post in this thread, each time I have clicked "submit" the darn thing has been pulled for editing and I have lost all my work.

Six months ago a bonded sibling pair of senior, 12 year old, Persians were surrendered to a local no-kill shelter.

When they were purchased they were registered with CFA, coming from championship lines and having the documented pedigree to prove it. For various reasons the papers were not found and so these two "lost" their papers. Certainly, someone could apply to CFA to get copies of their pedigree, but there is no way to "prove" that these cats are the cats that were registered. They were not microchipped or tattooed by their breeder, the original owner had died and beyond the description that was provided when they were registered (they have fairly "generic" coloration) there is nothing to conclusively "prove" they are the cats in question. Because of this, do they now become moggies? Can they only be referred to as "cats that resemble Persians"? Without paperwork they suddenly no longer become purebred? That is the part that confuses me.

I wad written a "good" educational post when this was pulled for editing, so I couldn't post it.

The Persian case: That is an excellent example of why cats should always be microchipped (or tattooed).  No, they don't become moggies because they were registered at one point. However for example if someone did something to them and their owner would take it to court to claim their value from the guilty part, according to law they would be moggies if the papers aren't found or new ones can't be acquired. One thing to do could be trying to contact the breeder and they might be able to tell you if the cats are indeed who they are claimed to be. (If you can't remember the cat's real name, or even the breeder, there's not much you can do).

 

[stealthkitty]

I wad written a "good" educational post when this was pulled for editing, so I couldn't post it.

I would've liked to read that! If it still fits with the discussion, is there any way you could retype it for us?

 

[andrya]

And therein lies my personal question about breed standards, for both dogs and cats. For Folds, back in the 60s there were single folds, then they were bred to be more extreme and became double. Now their ears are pressed flat against their heads in triple-folds. My pet-quality kitten doesn't have the skull cap look, since l'm not honestly a fan of Folds, lol 

 l started out looking for a British Shorthair (VERY long breeder-related story) and chose to wait for a kitten from a chosen pairing. But why did the ear transformation happen when there were established breed criteria?

Same thing with Pomeranians. There were established breed criteria, but when breeder(s) produced the new, fluffy, teddy-bear look, they were actually more beautiful to look at, and became the new benchmark. Along with this new shorter body, stockier look, shorter muzzle etc, came new conditions within the breed. My own dog has a few of the known carriers of a known condition in its heritage, which was what got me interested. And l have to say, the line-breeding/inbreeding that goes on between champion stock in the dog world is alarming!

Since my post wasn't edited out, l'm assuming l didn't cross any lines since l certainly wouldn't come into a breeders' forum and bash any breeders.

l like this topic and would love to hear real breeders' thoughts on it. ls it okay to keep this part of the discussion going here, or start a new thread?

(my internet is down, l may be gone for a day or so, blah!).

 

[tobytyler]

Since my post wasn't edited out, l'm assuming l didn't cross any lines since l certainly wouldn't come into a breeders' forum and bash any breeders.

l like this topic and would love to hear real breeders' thoughts on it. ls it okay to keep this part of the discussion going here, or start a new thread?

(my internet is down, l may be gone for a day or so, blah!).

I never saw where you even remotely bashed breeders, Andrya.  I am fascinated as well and hope this very educational thread can continue now uninterupted 

 

[threepawma]

My French Bulldog club certainly has members who are "enthusiasts", but the majority of us show competitively with our dogs. I would fall into the current enthusiast, former competitor category. I have never owned a conformation Frenchie...however I have "handled" a Frenchie bitch to a championship. I bungled a little on the way and it took her longer than it should have to get there. Then I handed her off to a professional handler and she finished her grand in five showings. For those of you unfamiliar with dog showing that is a pretty darn outstanding achievement, basically she swept her first five shows. Part of the requirement is beating a champion of record in at least three of the showings that are counting toward the point total. Also, you have to have at least four different judges awarding the points. I don't know how the titles are calculated in the cat world so I thought I would add that little tidbit (I am just so proud of her!). Also, I think it clearly illustrates just how important a handler is in dog showing. Even an outstanding specimen can show poorly if they have a total numbskull for a handler. Something that is really not important in the cat world.

How I was involved with her and the dog show world in general: I purchased my pet quality registered French Bulldog when I was 19. I fell in love instantaneously! However, being a poor college student I was in no shape to even get my foot into the show world. However, the breeder and I really hit it off and she mentored me, even letting me handle that girl for her. I should also say, in all fairness, I will never again be involved in conformation. I was very naive and went in expecting one sort of experience and left completely soured on the whole idea. I watch Westminster with interest and help out with local speciality shows now and again, but I will never compete. I digress...

I know I am talking an awful lot about the dog fancy and this is a site and thread devoted to cat fancy, but, at least for those of us in the US, I think even the average Joe is far more familiar with dog breeds and breeding than they are with cat breeds. I could walk down the street and stop 10 people and I would be willing to bet that 9 out of those 10 people could readily identify a dozen or more dog breeds by looks alone. Ask those same people about cat breeds and I bet only 2 or 3 could identify anything other than Siamese and Persians. So, I think it is important to discuss where we laymen might be coming from when we ask these questions that sometimes frustrate some breeders on this forum.

There are some practices in dog breeding that I wonder if anything similar happens in the cat world, however I am not sure if this would be the right thread to add them to. Does anybody think it would add to the discussion?

StealthKitty:

I love analogies so I really appreciate framing an argument like that, but I think the analogy of the Ferrari is a little off. To me what has been conveyed is not that the Ferrari is missing the decals, but instead is missing its title and, perhaps, owner's manual. Missing either of those in no way diminishes its status as a Ferrari, it is just an "unregistered" Ferrari. That is an important distinction that I always hear, over and over again, with dogs. Something that I seem to have missed if it was broached in this thread in regard to cats.

NorthernGlow:

Thank you for your explanation. That is precisely how I would view it, especially the legal aspect. I think the reason parts of this discussion were so confusing is that at times it seemed like people were saying a cat in that situation would now become a moggie. Lost proof=suddenly a mutt. That was hard for me to wrap my brain around. Certainly they could be traced and I believe the shelter staff was able to look up their pedigree, but it costs money to request a new copy and the shelter doesn't have funds to throw around for something like that. Plus, without the chip or tattoo when it comes right down to it, court of law if you will, there is no way to "prove" those cats belong to those papers. I totally agree about the chipping thing, it is so important for breeders to do this before the cat goes to a new home. I know that at some of our local shelters they even make you fill out the paperwork there and send it in AND put their contact information in the emergency contact area. That way if an animal becomes lost and the owners aren't located the shelter they came from is contacted. Perhaps breeders might consider doing that with their own animals. It would certainly cut down on the "Oh, I lost touch with the breeder" or " I forgot the breeder's name" type thing when pets need to be rehomed or are simply abandoned.

P.S. I think you should post that educational info. I am eager to read it. Maybe, you should do like I did and type it up in Word so that if it doesn't go through you'll have it saved.

Sorry, I am adding more. I thought of another example, though this one does not come from real life, it is something that is encountered often enough in the dog world. Say a person purchased a registered (with whatever register that may be) cat that is sold on a Pet Contract. This is assuming that the cat fancy has distinctions like that. The understanding with the Pet Contract is that the cat in question will not be bred; if it is bred the kittens would not be able to be registered. Once again, this is how this happens with dogs so I am assuming something similar happens with cats. From what I have read most of the breeders on this board spay and neuter before sending kittens to a new home. However, I don't think anyone can absolutely guarantee that all breeders are this prudent. So, the person who purchased this pet quality kitten that should not be bred instead decides to breed it. Assuming they have another registered pet quality cat to breed it with. The resulting kittens would not be able to be registered, but they would still be purebreds. Correct? Or is the cat fancy somehow different in how they determine how litters are registered? Dog breeders sell puppies on Full or Limited Registration. Puppies with limited registration parentage cannot be registered with the AKC, but are purebreds nonetheless.

 

[Willowy]

Often, those crusading about the "horrible animal welfare in this country"are only exasperating this horrible reality by becoming hoarders who hide behind the veil of 'rescue' and fail to understand that harboring multiple animals in squalor is abuse. 

I'm not sure how hoarders living in squalor have entered this discussion. . .but you do realize that a lot of caring, responsible breeders of registered cats have quite a lot of cats in their homes, right? What difference is there between a breeder who has many cats vs someone who isn't a breeder but has a lot of cats, if they receive the same kind of care?

I'd like to see NorthernGlow's post, too!

 

[tobytyler]

I love analogies so I really appreciate framing an argument like that, but I think the analogy of the Ferrari is a little off. To me what has been conveyed is not that the Ferrari is missing the decals, but instead is missing its title and, perhaps, owner's manual. Missing either of those in no way diminishes its status as a Ferrari, it is just an "unregistered" Ferrari. That is an important distinction that I always hear, over and over again, with dogs. Something that I seem to have missed if it was broached in this thread in regard to cats.

P.S. I think you should post that educational info. I am eager to read it. Maybe, you should do like I did and type it up in Word so that if it doesn't go through you'll have it saved.

But you can't even drive the Farrari without proper title and registration, so it is a good analogy if you think about it.

 

[orientalslave]

You are taking TobyTyler's comment out of context...

 

[stealthkitty]

I'm not sure how hoarders living in squalor have entered this discussion. . .but you do realize that a lot of caring, responsible breeders of registered cats have quite a lot of cats in their homes, right? What difference is there between a breeder who has many cats vs someone who isn't a breeder but has a lot of cats, if they receive the same kind of care?

Hoarders came into this discussion as an example of how even moggies have agencies looking out for them to prevent their mistreatment. It was just an example. The issue isn't how many cats one has; but rather, are laws or regulations being observed and are all the cats being cared for. I was simply wondering what type of regulation might be in place in the pedigree world to prevent abuse of the system, and that question was answered to my satisfaction. But, again, if any breeders would like to expound on that, I'm sure it would be interesting to read.

 

[stealthkitty]

Originally Posted by ThreePawMa  

StealthKitty:

I love analogies so I really appreciate framing an argument like that, but I think the analogy of the Ferrari is a little off. To me what has been conveyed is not that the Ferrari is missing the decals, but instead is missing its title and, perhaps, owner's manual. Missing either of those in no way diminishes its status as a Ferrari, it is just an "unregistered" Ferrari. That is an important distinction that I always hear, over and over again, with dogs. Something that I seem to have missed if it was broached in this thread in regard to cats.

Thanks for telling us some of your background with the dog fancy.

I can see that the analogy of the Ferrari could be tweaked, but (based on what I've learned in this forum so far) the basic point was that cats are not like Ferraris (or dogs) that one can recognize immediately, even without papers or registrations. Take away the Ferrari's title, registration, decals, scratch off the engine serial numbers, do whatever you like to remove any trace of its origin. Still no one would look at that car and say, "Since there is no paperwork or way to trace it, we can't say it is a Ferrari. Let's just say it resembles a Ferrari." Really, cats are like the second analogy. Unless you can give proof positive of their heritage, it doesn't count. Sure, maybe it counts to the owner, but no one else will have a basis for saying, "Yes, I agree that is a 100% purebred, pedigree Russian Blue."

Again, someone correct me if this is wrong.

 

[missymotus]

but you do realize that a lot of caring, responsible breeders of registered cats have quite a lot of cats in their homes, right?

Most do not, and there are great hypocrisies between breeder and rescue. Many view a breeder with 30 indoor cats as being overcrowded, yet slap a rescued label on there and suddenly it's fine.

Though in reality a house would have to be very large to give each cat enough personal space to house 20,30,40 cats.

Breeders with higher numbers usually have outdoor cattery space as well, they're not all crammed into a house.

 

[tobytyler]

Most do not, and there are great hypocrisies between breeder and rescue. Many view a breeder with 30 indoor cats as being overcrowded, yet slap a rescued label on there and suddenly it's fine.

Though in reality a house would have to be very large to give each cat enough personal space to house 20,30,40 cats.

Breeders with higher numbers usually have outdoor cattery space as well, they're not all crammed into a house.

Not to mention it would be a full time job with overtime in and of itself.  I have a good part time job taking care of only three.