Breed Vs Purebred

[stealthkitty]

Most do not, and there are great hypocrisies between breeder and rescue. Many view a breeder with 30 indoor cats as being overcrowded, yet slap a rescued label on there and suddenly it's fine.

That is interesting to consider. If a breeder has 30 cats, how many of them actually belong to the household and how many are kittens waiting to be taken to their adoptive owners' homes? And wouldn't a "rescuer" with 30 cats actually be a hoarder--especially since the cats in that situation wouldn't necessarily be up for adoption? If people saw the former situation as unacceptable and the latter situation as understandable (or even praiseworthy) that would indeed be hypocritical. ETA: Or perhaps ignorant, rather than outright hypocritical.

 

[Willowy]

I can see that it's slightly different, as breeders commonly have intact cats who will need to be kept separate from some of the other intact cats fairly often. So they would need more room for individual areas. Rescues usually have neutered cats, which makes group housing somewhat easier.

But what makes a hoarder? Is it purely numbers, or does quality of care factor in? What about no-kill shelters and sanctuaries? But that subject has been done to death on other subforums if anyone wants to pull one up and add to it instead of going more OT on this thread :tongue2:.

 

[stealthkitty]

But what makes a hoarder? Is it purely numbers, or does quality of care factor in? What about no-kill shelters and sanctuaries? But that subject has been done to death on other subforums if anyone wants to pull one up and add to it instead of going more OT on this thread

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I would say that a person could be called a cat hoarder when they are not able to give proper care to the number of cats they keep and are unwilling to recognize the problem--no matter the circumstances that led them to having so many cats. (The law might have a different definition, though.) This would rule out no-kill shelters and sanctuaries, as well as people who own lots of property where the cats have enough room. But you might be right--this is getting a little off topic!

 

[tobytyler]

I can see that it's slightly different, as breeders commonly have intact cats who will need to be kept separate from some of the other intact cats fairly often. So they would need more room for individual areas. Rescues usually have neutered cats, which makes group housing somewhat easier.
But what makes a hoarder? Is it purely numbers, or does quality of care factor in? What about no-kill shelters and sanctuaries? But that subject has been done to death on other subforums if anyone wants to pull one up and add to it instead of going more OT on this thread

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Sanctuaries and shelters are staffed.  There is no possible way single homeowner can properly care for 20, 30, 40 or more cats.  It's also illegal in most municipalities.

 

[missymotus]

I can see that it's slightly different, as breeders commonly have intact cats who will need to be kept separate from some of the other intact cats fairly often. So they would need more room for individual areas. Rescues usually have neutered cats, which makes group housing somewhat easier.

Obviously boys aren't around entire girls, they are in stud runs
But neutering matters little, 30+ cats still is a huge number for an average sized house, it would be quite a stressful environment

I don't count kittens in cat numbers if they are moving on, I was referring to 30 adult pet/rescues cats in a home

 

[tobytyler]

Obviously boys aren't around entire girls, they are in stud runs
But neutering matters little, 30+ cats still is a huge number for an average sized house, it would be quite a stressful environment
I don't count kittens in cat numbers if they are moving on, I was referring to 30 adult pet/rescues cats in a home

I'm just trying to calculate the litterboxes and where they would fit, even if this was some kind of mansion. 

  Isn't the formula one per cat, plus one more? Overcrowding is stressful and abusive.

 

[Willowy]

If anyone wishes to know about my setup, or anyobody else's (like catsallaround, for instance), they're certainly welcome to PM. Which seems better than wildly speculating in this thread. And going further OT :lol3:.

 

[tobytyler]

"I would say that a person could be called a cat hoarder when they are not able to give proper care to the number of cats they keep and are unwilling to recognize the problem"no matter the circumstances that led them to having so many cats. (The law might have a different definition, though.) This would rule out no-kill shelters and sanctuaries, as well as people who own lots of property where the cats have enough room. But you might be right--this is getting a little off topic!

Sadly, to many of these folks,  if they could only save just one person from purchasing a purebred cat, it somehow justifies everything

 

 

[missymotus]

To hoard is to store or pile up.

So numbers do matter, a small number of cats ill cared for is neglect, hoarding generally is a larger number of cats and even if 'cared for' in the basic sense of the word, being too crowded would be concerning for most both in space, stress, care and time spent with the cats to keep the socialization up

Breeders are scrutinised on how many cats, how they are cared for and socializing, I hope those who choose to rescue or house large numbers are viewed the same way
There are private, in home rescues here that keep large numbers that would have tongues wagging if they were breeders rather than rescues, many ending up reported and having to downsize as average homes shouldn't house that amount of animals

Health and well being of the animals should be top priority in both situations and of course in both breeding and rescue numbers will fluctuate

 

[tobytyler]

To hoard is to store or pile up.
So numbers do matter, a small number of cats ill cared for is neglect, hoarding generally is a larger number of cats and even if 'cared for' in the basic sense of the word, being too crowded would be concerning for most both in space, stress, care and time spent with the cats to keep the socialization up
Breeders are scrutinised on how many cats, how they are cared for and socializing, I hope those who choose to rescue or house large numbers are viewed the same way
There are private, in home rescues here that keep large numbers that would have tongues wagging if they were breeders rather than rescues, many ending up reported and having to downsize as average homes shouldn't house that amount of animals
Health and well being of the animals should be top priority in both situations and of course in both breeding and rescue numbers will fluctuate

Probably why it's illegal most places to have more animals that one can reasonably take care of.  Most municipalities have a limit on the number of animals per household, usually well under 10. 

In the case of 20 plus cats, (and likely a menagerie of other animals as well), the cats would more or less be feral.  Socialization, in addition to the most basic of care would be next to impossible. 

But responsible breeders are somehow considered evil in the alternate universe of animal hoarders

 

 

[missymotus]

But responsible breeders are somehow considered evil in the alternate universe of animal hoarders :confuse3:

I wouldn't call all rescuers hoarders (& not suggesting you are either) many do actively adopt out what they rescue rather than let numbers climb, but yes there are many who cannot see the difference between responsible breeders and byb's

Also wanting to point out I'm not against rescue in any way, there are many who do a wonderful job in that department, it does seem easy to quickly spiral though which in the end helps no one.
Slowly, one cat at a time is far more effective long term than overcrowding

 

[tobytyler]

And there are also purebred rescue groups as mentioned.  So if you are set on a particular breed, this is another option as well.

 

[stealthkitty]

ThreePawMa raises an interesting question here. I'd be curious to read a response to it, if any one cares to give it a go.

 

[tobytyler]

ThreePawMa raises an interesting question here. I'd be curious to read a response to it, if any one cares to give it a go.

For CFA registered cats, in order to be bred, the breeder must provide a Pin Number on the registration papers for the new owner to have breeding rights. In addition, the litter has already been registered by the breeder.  All of this is documented and validated by CFA (or the other registries)

That would hopefully prevent someone from illegitimately breeding that cat.  They paid a lot for "breeding rights" and know the registry system. 

So from what I gather from the question, the person who did such an unlikely thing would be a BYB and that litter would not be eligible for registration and would therefore not be considered purebred because there would be no valid documented registration papers. 

Anyone else have a better explanation?

 

[missymotus]

So from what I gather from the question, the person who did such an unlikely thing would be a BYB and that litter would not be eligible for registration and would therefore not be considered purebred because there would be no valid documented registration papers. 

Anyone else have a better explanation?

Comes back to the proof is in the papers. Which kittens from a pet can't have.

 

[nekochan]

I understand if a cat does not have papers it cannot be verified to be purebred, but I don't understand people saying if a cat doesn't have papers it is automatically a DSH/DLH? Having papers does not change the cat's genes or what breed they are.
If you lose your cat's papers does it suddenly turn into a non purebred?

 

[missymotus]

Lost papers can be reissued.

Without papers you are just going on someones word that their cat is a purebred and so the resulting litter you are buying from is too.

 

[tobytyler]

I understand if a cat does not have papers it cannot be verified to be purebred, but I don't understand people saying if a cat doesn't have papers it is automatically a DSH/DLH? Having papers does not change the cat's genes or what breed they are.

Technically, they would be a "look alike" or "mixed breed" of what ever purebred they resemble, not a DSH/DLH. Moggie would also be an appropriate term.

The only way to positively prove the cat's genes is the registration. Lost papers can be reissued as MM stated.

 

[sohni]

Wow.. crazy long thread.

Honestly, I believe that papers are just as important in any other breed of animal (as well as cats). I have been involved in horse, dog, and cat situations. In all cases, papers are necessary to call the animal purebred. The definition of purebred is "Bred from parents of the same breed or variety", but when it comes to advertising an animal for sale, this definition is not followed. All of the classified sites and publications that I have researched state that animals may not be advertised as 'purebred' unless they are registered with a recognized governing body.

Sure a back yard breeder may ignore these warnings - and they may even make up their own 'purebred' names. I am thinking of teacup chihuahuas, apple head siamese, labradoodles, etc etc.

Six pages ago I saw a comment about breeding unregistered kittens from registered parents. Well, if CFA (for example) discovers this, I am sure the cattery name registration will be revoked. I register all of my kittens, regardless of where they are going. I have never sold kittens as breeding stock - but I have done kitten-back deals with other breeders and have provided the PIN number for those animals to be bred.

A question was asked about CFA monitoring catteries, and I have experience with this. In order to register a litter, you must have both the male and female in your possession, and registered to yourself, before they will provide papers. If there are discrepencies such as one parent being owned by a different person, OR if a litter takes place in a time frame that CFA feels would be detrimental to the health of the female, they will not release registration papers until these questions are cleared up. If either cat was owned by a different person, at the time of conception, then that person must sign off on the papers. They are keeping track of what we are up to.

One of the original questions was, can a cat be purebred if it doesn't have papers? My answer is no - it can look like whatever breed it is, but without proof (in the form of registration), then it is not purebred. Same goes for dogs and horses.

Registration greatly increases the worth of some animals as well. I am buying a Friesian horse and I am expected to pay a heck of a lot more for a horse registered with FPS/FHANA rather than FHS. The former registry strictly regulates breeding and inspection, and the second allows for cross breeding. Browsing horse for sale ads, you can see the difference in grade quarter horses vs AQHA registered horses, for another example. In a way, you get what you pay for.

 

[stealthkitty]

Wow.. crazy long thread.

You have no idea!

Honestly, I believe that papers are just as important in any other breed of animal (as well as cats). I have been involved in horse, dog, and cat situations. In all cases, papers are necessary to call the animal purebred. The definition of purebred is "Bred from parents of the same breed or variety", but when it comes to advertising an animal for sale, this definition is not followed. All of the classified sites and publications that I have researched state that animals may not be advertised as 'purebred' unless they are registered with a recognized governing body.

I suspect as much, but there's been some posts on here saying that with every breed but cats, all that counts is that they "look like" a purebred. I'd love to hear from more people that are directly involved with registries for other species (such as the AKC, for example) but I suppose that discussion would belong in a different forum.

Thanks for being more specific about what role a registry would play in overseeing breeding programs! It's fascinating to learn more about the cat fancy and how things work.

Please tell me that you were exaggerating about people calling labradoodles "purebred."