Breed Vs Purebred

[Willowy]

There are no Registered Burmese breeders in the greater Denver area that I am aware of.
There are no such cats to be found in any listings (except maybe BYB classified ads and craigslist ). 

Since the cat in question was found dumped with many others of the same appearance, and brown (sable, whatever it's called in that breed) is rare in the moggie population, it's fairly plausible that a crummy breeder dumped them when they were no longer profitable. The vast majority of purebred breeders in the U.S. do not breed registered cats, which I suppose makes them BYBs. And a kitten mill would have no qualms about dumping or killing cats they have no further use for.

 

[tobytyler]

Since the cat in question was found dumped with many others of the same appearance, and brown (sable, whatever it's called in that breed) is rare in the moggie population, it's fairly plausible that a crummy breeder dumped them when they were no longer profitable. The vast majority of purebred breeders in the U.S. do not breed registered cats, which I suppose makes them BYBs. And a kitten mill would have no qualms about dumping or killing cats they have no further use for.

Emphasis on crummy breeder.  A legit Burmese breeder would be registered, regardless. There are no such breeders in the area OP got the feral cat she is insisting is a purebred!   Likewise her cat is not the Burmese she insists it is.

Other posts by the OP indicate there is a Burmese breeder in her area of San Diego.  But it wasn't the right color, like Hershey was!   So OP called around to various shelters and found one in Denver that told her they were trapping Burmese that had "escaped from a breeder".  And since it happened to be the same color as the original Hershey, the OP thought maybe she could just pretend it was her original cat.  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

When I was looking for a Manx, I saw an ad for them in the paper.  So out of curiosity I went there to check out the Manx Cats. 

The living conditions of the human inhabitants of this place were atrocious, the cats were even worse.  They were taking feral DSH cats and putting rubber bands on the tails so they would fall off, and calling them Manx.  Didn't look anything like a Manx, except there was no tail. I reported it to every humane organization I could.  It honestly made me throw up and want to take matters into my own hands.

 

[Willowy]

Most BYBs and puppy/kitten mills are producing actual purebred animals, not trying to pass off moggies/mutts as purebred. Although if you claim that unregistered animals aren't actually purebred, I guess that tidily takes care of that problem. Although some are registered (is there a kitten mill registry like the puppymill registries?).

In the U.S. there is no such thing as a registered breeder. It's the animals who are registered, not the breeders. And most purebred animals are not registered.

 

[tobytyler]

In the U.S. there is no such thing as a registered breeder. It's the animals who are registered, not the breeders. And most purebred animals are not registered.

Really?  Tell me then, why is my breeder a CFA Registered Breeder?   And where do you get your information that most purebred animals are not registered?  Mine are 'pets' and they are registered. 

 

[callista]

I think you're both right, from different perspectives. Most cats that people call purebred aren't registered. The properly registered, carefully bred cats are in the minority of cats identified as one breed or another, though it's a minority I'd greatly love to increase. It's easy enough to get a "Siamese" cat from a shelter, when the cat is actually a moggie with a pointed coat, maybe with a pedigreed Siamese queen's "oops" litter three generations back. The term "breed" has come to mean a bigger group than it should, so that you have to make sure you know what you're talking about when you talk about a cat's breed--whether you mean "This cat looks like/was claimed to be/was descended from" or "This cat has a pedigree and papers". A lot of the confusion here seems to come from that. One person is talking about the cat's look and possible lineage; another thinks of a breed as synonymous with a pedigree. You're talking about two different things, essentially.

 

[orientalslave]

So far as I am concerned, a pedigree cat is registered and has papers.  I suspect some BYBs produce fake papers, or they produce a pedigree without bothering to explain that although the cat has a 'pedigree' it's not registered.  I'm not sure how good the record keeping of the average BYB is either. 

A friend has a cattery and so I get to see a lot of cats - of course she sees even more - but the only non-pedigree we've ever seen that was a good look-alike was Big Ginge who was the most wonderful cream BSH look-alike.  He had the stumpy legs, thickset body, small ears, reasonable earset, round orange eyes, round face, the coat texture...  He was the sort of cat the BSH was selected from. 

It's problematic enough in the cat world (and presumbly the dog world and so on) with the hand-written pedigrees of yore - one of my cats had several typos in his pedigree (Taz instead of Tzu was one of them!) - but at least with a registered animal all the animals in it's pedigree do exist.  The pedigrees that some with GCCF registered cats in the UK have the registration number for each cat on, along with it's name, titles and sometimes the colour e.g. 24 is the GCCF breed number for a seal-point Siamese, and the pedigree might have 'seal-point' in the entry for that cat.  The GCCF have a massive database of registered cats, and running the body and it's database is part of what registration fees pay for.

 

[Willowy]

Really?  Tell me then, why is my breeder a CFA Registered Breeder?  And where do you get your information that most purebred animals are not registered?  Mine are 'pets' and they are registered. 

There is no such thing as a "CFA registered breeder". From the CFA website:

"Note: CFA does not license or endorse anyone engaged in the commerce of breeding and selling pedigreed cats. CFA will register a name for your cattery, but that does not mean that the cattery itself is registered with CFA."

And individual cats or litters can be registered. But not breeders. It's a lot different in Europe and Australia.

And I say that the majority of purebred cats aren't registered is because I'm pretty sure there are more than 60,000 purebred cats in the country. And I have never met a registered purebred, despite knowing a decent number of purebred cats. If your definition of purebred is "registered", then, yeah, you won't agree. But if you think a purebred is an animal that breeds true through many generations, well, lots of those.

I doubt most BYBs bother with fake papers. A lot of people who want a purebred just want a pretty cat with bragging rights., and don't care one bit about papers. Registration is "only for show cats" (or dogs).

 

[tobytyler]

There is no such thing as a "CFA registered breeder". From the CFA website:
"Note: CFA does not license or endorse anyone engaged in the commerce of breeding and selling pedigreed cats. CFA will register a name for your cattery, but that does not mean that the cattery itself is registered with CFA."
And individual cats or litters can be registered. But not breeders. It's a lot different in Europe and Australia.
And I say that the majority of purebred cats aren't registered is because I'm pretty sure there are more than 60,000 purebred cats in the country. And I have never met a registered purebred, despite knowing a decent number of purebred cats. If your definition of purebred is "registered", then, yeah, you won't agree. But if you think a purebred is an animal that breeds true through many generations, well, lots of those.

And your point is??? Most reputable US breeders do register their catteries and also carry the CFA (or other) designation. The cat you buy from the breeder is then voluntarily registered with that agency.

 

[tobytyler]

. Registration is "only for show cats" (or dogs).

Sorry but you are very mistaken my dear.  My purebred pedigreed cats are pets and are registered.  The registry maintains their ancestry and names, among other things.  There is a reason for registering  purebred cats, but no it is not a mandate if you are not showing or breeding.  So no, registration is not only for show cats.

 

[Willowy]

And your point is??? Most reputable US breeders do register their catteries and also carry the CFA (or other) designation. The cat you buy from the breeder is then voluntarily registered with that agency.

Yes, "reputable" breeders. Just because a cat is not from a reputable breeder doesn't mean it's not purebred. Breeding pure does not require registration.

Or, if your breeder didn't register a litter for some reason, does that mean those kittens aren't purebred?

 

[Willowy]

Sorry but you are very mistaken my dear.  My purebred pedigreed cats are pets and are registered.  The registry maintains their ancestry and names, among other things.  There is a reason for registering  purebred cats, but no it is not a mandate if you are not showing or breeding.  So no, registration is not only for show cats.

I didn't say that was true. I said it's the general attitude. Hence the quotes :tongue2:. My dear (are we married now?).

 

[orientalslave]

...Registration is "only for show cats" (or dogs).

All the breeders I know register ALL their kittens, even when they are obviously not show or beeding quality.  All my four pedigree cats are registered, only one is a good show quality.  All the pedigree cats I've previously owned have been registered as well, only one was show quality - just.

 

[tobytyler]

Yes, "reputable" breeders. Just because a cat is not from a reputable breeder doesn't mean it's not purebred. Breeding pure does not require registration.
Or, if your breeder didn't register a litter for some reason, does that mean those kittens aren't purebred?

Just got off the phone with my breeder, who has been registered with both TICA and CFA (since 1967 for CFA) Yes, it's her cattery name that is registered. You can register in the breeders name or cattery.  She has a registration number for both her TICA and CFA registrations btw. So yes, she is a registered breeder. with both TICA and CFA

Obviously breeding does not require registration, but those cats do not have papers, and are therefore not considered "purebred".

 

[Willowy]

I'm sure that the majority of , if not all, breeders who are breeding registerable kittens do register them, i'm just saying that a lot of people who just want a purebred for bragging rights don't care about papers and will say that.

I don't know any AKC registered purebred dogs either (OK, I know one). The majority of purebred dogs aren't registered. But at least dog people don't claim that a purebred isn't purebred without papers!

 

[Willowy]

Just got off the phone with my breeder, who has been registered with both TICA and CFA (since 1967 for CFA) Yes, it's her cattery name that is registered. You can register in the breeders name or cattery.  She has a registration number for both her TICA and CFA registrations btw. So yes, she is a registered breeder. with both TICA and CFA.

I was only pointing out what CFA said on the matter :dk:. It's very different from the European or Australian "registered breeder" process.

 

[tobytyler]

I was only pointing out what CFA said on the matter

. It's very different from the European or Australian "registered breeder" process.

Well, my breeder and I are both in the US.

 

[callista]

I'm sure that the majority of , if not all, breeders who are breeding registerable kittens do register them, i'm just saying that a lot of people who just want a purebred for bragging rights don't care about papers and will say that.
I don't know any AKC registered purebred dogs either (OK, I know one). The majority of purebred dogs aren't registered. But at least dog people don't claim that a purebred isn't purebred without papers!

It has a lot to do with dogs. Many people referring to unregistered cats by breed names don't understand that breeders define "purebred" as "a cat with papers". It's not an attempt to deceive or brag. It's just the result of having seen almost every dog identified as either a purebred or a mix of specific breeds. Many cats are identified as purebred without any papers, because that's what people expect from what they know about dog breeds. Quite a few cats are sold at pet stores or by unscrupulous breeders, without papers. Many of these cats could be registered, but are not, because they can be sold for the same money either way, often with the excuse that pets don't need papers. And registering them leaves a paper trail. When it becomes obvious that you sold a hundred kittens from your small farm last year, eventually there are going to be people wanting to see how you keep the cats, and they won't be happy to see unsocialized, cramped animals with poor medical care. And then the cat grows up, scratches somebody, ends up in the shelter, and it looks purebred enough for the shelter employees to label it "Siamese" or "Persian", hoping to save its life--can you really blame them?

I do not think there is any reason to get angry at people for calling their non-registered cats some breed or another. You can correct them, explain that a breeder doesn't consider a cat without papers to be a purebred cat even if it does have the right ancestry; but just remember that when they are calling their cat a "Siamese" cat, they may not even know that a breeder would understand that to mean "A Siamese cat with a registered pedigree." They may just mean that Siamese is what the shelter told them when those soft little paws first captured their hearts.

 

[Willowy]

Well, my breeder and I are both in the US.

Yes. . .because CFA is an American registry, I never thought otherwise :dk:. You really should look into what a registered breeder is in the other countries. . .it's a much stricter process than in the U.S.

I guess now iIm not sure of your point. Weren't you just arguing that a cat you found on the street was definitely a purebred because he looked and acted like one? But someone else who has a cat they got from a breeder, and the cat looks and acts like a purebred, and the breeder said it was a purebred, but the cat isn't registered. ..it's not a purebred?

 

[tobytyler]

Yes. . .because CFA is an American registry, I never thought otherwise

. You really should look into what a registered breeder is in the other countries. . .it's a much stricter process than in the U.S.
I guess now iIm not sure of your point. Weren't you just arguing that a cat you found on the street was definitely a purebred because he looked and acted like one? But someone else who has a cat they got from a breeder, and the cat looks and acts like a purebred, and the breeder said it was a purebred, but the cat isn't registered. ..it's not a purebred?

Was not arguing anything.  I have owned purebred Manx for the last 20+ years I believe I know what a Manx looks like and this breeds temperament.  I could get more technical on this particular cat and the points he would have been judged on.  To me he was a stray that I am very fortunate to have found me.   Cymric/Manx are NOT a typical street cat, like a moggie that may look like a Siamese. This cat had all the features of a purebred Manx/Cymric. I never considered Pantaloons to be an actual purebred because there were no papers. 

The point is... if you are looking for a purebred CAT (not dog, as has been covered ad nauseum here), you don't go to the pound or BYB to get one.   And to get a pedigreed registered purebred, you do have to go through a CFA or TICA registered breeder here in the US. 

 

[missymotus]

All the breeders I know register ALL their kittens, even when they are obviously not show or beeding quality.  

Same here, it's a requirement that all litters must be registered and most breeders then individually register all kittens. Here pedigrees are issued for breeding, show neuter and pet cats. So a pet cat can't be shown and a neuter can't be bred from (though majority neuter before sale anyway) and a breeder can request a new pedigree for a pet cat into a show neuter should the owner change their mind of showing, and the cat meets the standard.

In the US I think the owners register the new kitten? Here all paperwork is handled by the breeders, owners cannot submit any forms themselves.