Best diet for cats?

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I know you are a firm advocate of raw feeding and that's lovely, but raw feeding isn't for everyone, in fact I would be concerned about many people feeding raw since not everyone does their homework like you and your group of raw feeders.

Raw feeding can be dangerous if not done correctly and that's not something you or anyone can deny. So, when advocating raw feeding it is imperative that the stress in on research, research, and more research and understanding the dangers of not doing it correctly. I know it isn't rocket science but not everyone understands information given. One just has to read posts here to realize that often a poster will respond to a thread and it is blatantly obvious they did not read the original post or the subseqent posts. You and your group obviously take raw feeding seriously, not everyone will and I hesitate to recommend it for that reason as well as the pets that have died due to raw feeding.

Gosh, Yosemite, that's all you took away from all that information? A disinclination to recommend a species-appropriate diet, an incredibly healthy - to the point of fixing problems caused by commercial products - diet because someone might not balance it correctly? What about all those who would put in the necessary time to understand raw feeding requirements (and the vast majority of them are quite... particular about their cats), and whose cats would benefit by it? Allergies gone, IBD gone, diabetes alleviated or gone, no more urinary tract issues...

Commercially-manufactured products have verifiably killed thousands of pets and caused thousands more to suffer; we know of only one, possibly two, both infirm and already ill cats, who contracted Salmonella from a raw ground diet, plus one more unidentified cat that's brought up here occasionally as the cat of a friend of a friend, who died from eating some type of raw diet. If anything, we should be warning people off commercial.

Hmmm, are you familiar with the balancing process? It's very easy to understand and execute, especially if you grind.

AC

 

[cat person]

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

What diet can't be dangerous? How many cats have died from kibble? How many cats are being fed completely inappropriate, grain and veggie filled crap in a bag because their owners didn't bother to do any research? I have ferrets, also obligate carnivores and there are many available kibbles out there with next to no meat in them and some even have little chunks of fruits and veggies that could cause a blockage, not to mention sugars and grains in a ferrets diet is directly linked to insulinoma disease. Research should be done no matter what diet is fed.

As far as feeding items that aren't in a natural diet, most do this with kibble or canned too, I feed my ball python mice, which aren't naturally occuring in Africa but mice/rats are what almost all pet ball pythons are fed and thrive on, my iguana gets various veggies, not the ones he'd be coming across in the wild and I don't spend all day balancing it out any more than I do the raw diet for the cat and ferrets, people seem to believe cats are some crazy difficult animals to feed and that you need to be a genius to handle it and that's silly.

I think that is ONE OF THE BEST POSTS on this thread. You and me are one of the few people on this forum that I know of that have said that feeding domestic cats is not a genius level project.

Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

In feeding raw to my wildcats, there is one MYTH that I always have to disprove. And that is "won't feeding raw bring out the wild or once they get the taste of blood, they will want to eat you?" I just shake my head and of course, the answer is no, it will not.

I have to agree with that. I am also not sure why people feel that way, do you know how that myth got started? Also my F3 Savannah loves his mouse a day

. Yes he eats way more then that do not worry folks

.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

I have never met anyone with so much to say about a subject he knows absolutely nothing about.

People are reading this thread (if they've gotten this far) in the hopes of getting enough information to determine for themselves the best food for their beloved furkids, and you're arguing the definition of word as used by raw-feeders, a group of educated and passionate people to which you've never belonged? *facepalm*

AC

No I am pointing out your false arguments and unverified statements, such as raw-diets (whatever that specifically may be since it isn't defined and regulated in any way) supposedly solving a myriad of health issues which the American, Canadian, and British Veterinary Associations say is a completely empty claim. The only ever largescale scientific study that supports it was from Pottenger's trial, which compared the health of raw fed cats to those fed cooked meat, but the study completely invalidated since taurine for example was never added back into the meat as is done in commercial cat food. You further make blanket statements about commercial cat food with no evidence to support it and that can't be possibly verified considering that there are so many varied products on the market (something true about Friskies Fancy Feast dry isn't necessarily true of ByNature Chicken wet).

You say that a typical raw-diet is superior because commercial pet food is an unnatural diet and raw-diet by contrast a completely natural prey-based model of what the cats would eat in the wild. This is completely false. A typical raw-diet is a commercial human food diet using protein sources that would never "naturally" be available to a domestic cat, which is not a fresh kill, and because it takes days to reach the customer and may sit for more before being purchased and makes contact with several constantly reused surfaces in its commercial processing has too many opportunities for bacterial contamination per the FDA, and is thus not intended or safety regulated for raw consumption, nor is there any governing body ensuring raw-diets are nutritionally complete to mimic a natural feline diet.

Other inaccurate claims for example are that verifiably thousands of cats have died from commercial pet food, but virtually none verified from raw-based diets. Even in the case with the 2007 Chinese food contamination, the FDA only ever verified 14 cases, but luckily it is at least safety regulated and there exists venues for reporting to create reasonable estimates and to protect the public with recalls. The FDA does recall any pet food contaminated w/ salmonella amongst other bacteria as a public health concern, and does warn that 5-20% of raw poultry should be expected to be contaminated but is not recalled since it is intended to be cooked by the consumer prior to consumption. Since raw-based diets are completely unregulated, there is no centralized place for anyone to report anything and it relies entirely on information volunteered from individual meal preparers themselves to blame if something goes awry. Thus there is no way to know how many cats and dogs die annually from raw and BARF diets and how that compares as a percentage of cats fed to commercial diets.

Cliffs Notes: Far too many false, unverified, and impossible to prove claims are made for raw and against commercial cat food.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

No I am pointing out your false arguments and unverified statements, such as raw-diets (whatever that specifically may be since it isn't defined and regulated in any way) supposedly solving a myriad of health issues which the American, Canadian, and British Veterinary Associations say is a completely empty claim. The only ever largescale scientific study that supports it was from Pottenger's trial, which compared the health of raw fed cats to those fed cooked meat, but the study completely invalidated since taurine for example was never added back into the meat as is done in commercial cat food. You further make blanket statements about commercial cat food with no evidence to support it and that can't be possibly verified considering that there are so many varied products on the market (something true about Friskies Fancy Feast dry isn't necessarily true of ByNature Chicken wet).

You say that a typical raw-diet is superior because commercial pet food is an unnatural diet and raw-diet by contrast a completely natural prey-based model of what the cats would eat in the wild. This is completely false. A typical raw-diet is a commercial human food diet using protein sources that would never "naturally" be available to a domestic cat, which is not a fresh kill, and because it takes days to reach the customer and may sit for more before being purchased and makes contact with several constantly reused surfaces in its commercial processing has too many opportunities for bacterial contamination per the FDA, and is thus not intended or safety regulated for raw consumption, nor is there any governing body ensuring raw-diets are nutritionally complete to mimic a natural feline diet.

Other inaccurate claims for example are that verifiably thousands of cats have died from commercial pet food, but virtually none verified from raw-based diets. Even in the case with the 2007 Chinese food contamination, the FDA only ever verified 14 cases, but luckily it is at least safety regulated and there exists venues for reporting to create reasonable estimates and to protect the public with recalls. The FDA does recall any pet food contaminated w/ salmonella amongst other bacteria as a public health concern, and does warn that 5-20% of raw poultry should be expected to be contaminated but is not recalled since it is intended to be cooked by the consumer prior to consumption. Since raw-based diets are completely unregulated, there is no centralized place for anyone to report anything and it relies entirely on information volunteered from individual meal preparers themselves to blame if something goes awry. Thus there is no way to know how many cats and dogs die annually from raw and BARF diets and how that compares as a percentage of cats fed to commercial diets.

Cliffs Notes: Far too many false, unverified, and impossible to prove claims are made for raw and against commercial cat food.

I most certainly often disagree with you, but in this instance I am totally in your camp.

I totally get that for those that raw feed there is no other option in their opinion. That's wonderful for them but it isn't the be-all, end-all as to raw-feeding.

I also didn't see where anyone said raw feeding led to wildness. This thread has gone all over the place and turned into a raw feeding thread rather than what the original poster asked. Yes, for those of you who feed raw, it is the best - for you. It sure isn't the best for me since I know myself and that my busy lifestyle would not allow me to do it properly or safely so I'll just read labels and get the best commercial food I can for my beloved Bijou. It does not mean I love him any less than you folks love your cats.

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Cat Person

I think that is ONE OF THE BEST POSTS on this thread. You and me are one of the few people on this forum that I know of that have said that feeding domestic cats is not a genius level project.

Yes, raw feeding isn't really difficult. The hardest part is overcoming the anxiety about doing it that results from the abundance of bad information available.

 

[sweetpea24]

I know when I started feeding raw to my dog, I had read a thread on a dog forum I am on about dogs going 'wild' when fed raw. I also read some articles which seemed to reinforce the idea that a dog won't turn wild when fed raw. So maybe this myth is an ongoing urban legend of sorts. I know my dog runs when I feed her. So much more than when I fed her kibble, canned or homecooked. But not wild, she is crazy though

.

I don't think anyone is implying that if you don't feed raw, you don't love your cats. I agree, feeding raw isn't for everyone or even some cats who have compromised immune systems. However, raw feeding isn't rocket science, but it is a matter of achieving balance over time as opposed to having balance in every meal. There are advocates for all types of feeding and there's nothing wrong with debating one's viewpoint.

It seems this thread has covered a plethora of subjects with respect to feeding our cats but it is all good discussion, outside of the personal jabs and occasional cheerleading. We are debating what is the best diet for cats is aren't we? There is always going to be debate about cat nutrition unless some flawless, long-term, totally thorough and conclusive study is suddenly run and gives us the final truth. That will likely never happen. It is always good to learn from all points of view and it's ultimately up to you what you want to feed.

Feeding cats is not rocket science; but finding one diet that everyone can afford, is comfortable feeding, and that all believes in just may be rocket science!

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

...

I totally get that for those that raw feed there is no other option in their opinion. ...

Sheez. No one ever said that.

I regularly recommend wet food. In fact, I recommend it far more often than I recommend raw. Heck, I've been recommending wet foods while this thread was in progress, and so have many of the other raw feeders.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

...
Yes, for those of you who feed raw, it is the best - for you.

The best for me, for us? Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how much research, how much worry and anxiety-fraught nail-biting weighing of the facts goes into making a decision like this? How hard we seek to source the best meats for our littlest family members? I don't put half the effort into finding the variety for myself that I do for my cats, nor ensuring my own foods are as fresh and as high-quality as the meats I source for my clowder. No one comes to this decision lightly.

It is most definitely not the best diet for us, it's the best diet for the cats.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

... It does not mean I love him any less than you folks love your cats.

This again? Really? *sigh*

The facts are what they are, and the proof is in the health of raw-fed cats all over the world.

Will Falconer, DVM, Certified Veterinary Homeopath:

“Interestingly enough, the diseases that are quite common in cats now were virtually unknown in the late 70's when I was in veterinary school. We had two donated diabetic beagle siblings who lived in the hospital and taught us about this strange disease. It was something we never saw in cats, and it was pretty uncommon in dogs for that matter. We learned of hypothyroidism from several canine cases, but cats didn't have thyroid problems, and hyperthyroidism was not in the books or the exam rooms. We saw horrible skin allergies in dogs, with crusts and scabs and red feet and unending itchiness, but we didn't see cats with this disease, either.

Well, if you've been observant in recent years, you know that these chronic diseases are fairly commonplace now in the feline population. As are heartworm (again, a dog disease originally), asthma, kidney failure, inflammatory bowel disease, dental calculus and decay, heart disease, and cancer. Why? Could it be that the cat is now following the same road that the dog has gone down? I think so, and what's more, I think we need to redefine what is the best way to raise a healthy animal.â€

Ingrid King - Former veterinary hospital manager turned writer and Author of Conscious Cat website:

"I have seen diabetes, asthma, lower urinary tract (bladder) problems, chronic vomiting and/or diarrhea (inflammatory bowel disease-type symptoms), skin and ear problems and other health issues either markedly improve or completely resolve when raw diets were introduced. Every cat will respond in their own way, but I now view real, fresh, raw food as the “best medicine†for many of my patients."

AC

 

[cat person]

Originally Posted by mschauer

Yes, raw feeding isn't really difficult. The hardest part is overcoming the anxiety about doing it that results from the abundance of bad information available.

I do not mean just about raw food. I mean ANY FOOD

!

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Feeding cats is not rocket science; but finding one diet that everyone can afford, is comfortable feeding, and that all believes in just may be rocket science!

The only part that makes it hard is finding a diet everyone believes in if you ask me.

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by Cat Person

I do not mean just about raw food. I mean ANY FOOD

!



The only part that makes it hard is finding a diet everyone believes in if you ask me.

I think that was my point in the last sentence of my post that you quoted.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Feeding cats is not rocket science; but finding one diet that everyone can afford, is comfortable feeding, and that all believes in just may be rocket science!

And it is absolutely perfectly fine for there not to be a consensus, and in fact is expected since there are many different healthy ways to feed a cat and "best" will be subjective based on the weight one places on various factors and financial/time/lifestyle circumstances.

As an example, I am away from the house for 15hrs at a time, due to a 13hr work shift, and especially with bacterial contaminated raw poses serious health risks left in a cooled auto-feeder unattended, and Wesley will regurgitate if attempting to feed excessive amounts of wet in fewer meals which is unhealthy (the acid also burns on the way up), so the spoilage-safety aspect of dry is a major advantage. The fact that a premium grain-free dry like Blue Wilderness is 780% less expensive than wet Wilderness cans per calorie allows me to feed higher quality protein sources under the same budget, which might otherwise only buy an unhealthy high-carbohydrate and by-product primary protein source cheapo junk wet food. Combine that with mild dental health benefit demonstrated in several studies as shown in this thread, and it is certainly "best" when combined w/ wet for hydration when I'm home IMO for those specific circumstances but would not be "best" in others. If I were home 24x7 with unlimited time and money, I would argue that a safe regulated high quality wet food like ByNature with a dental cleaning regimen (fingerbrush/gel) would be "best", especially if the cat is immune compromised... unless the cat doesn't like the taste and is finicky and isn't getting enough calories because of it, in which case its again unhealthy. So that is the RATIONAL unbiased approach to nutrition that doesn't deal in impassioned absolutes IMO.

The important thing is just that one stick to the facts and avoid overly broad generalized statements, perpetuate false myths, or make unverified (and as we've seen here unverifiable) claims and state them as fact. "I think" or "there is some evidence to suggest" are much better ways to make such claims and avoid counter-argument.

 

[cat person]

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

I think that was my point in the last sentence of my post that you quoted.

Yay we agree on something

. I think?

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Cat Person

Yay we agree on something

. I think?

Woohoo!

And everyone no matter their beliefs surely wants what is best for their kitties! Group hug time!

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

...
People are reading this thread (if they've gotten this far) in the hopes of getting enough information to determine for themselves the best food for their beloved furkids, and you're arguing the definition of word as used by raw-feeders, a group of educated and passionate people to which you've never belonged? *facepalm* AC

It's become clear to me that the structure of this sentence isn't as good as it could have been and the meaning has been misunderstood - and in a way that's caused hurt feelings.

I meant the word 'educated' in the comment, "...raw-feeders, a group of educated and passionate people..." to refer only to "educated in raw feeding", not to educated in general. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if half of TCS's wonderful members had more degrees and more education in general than I.

I sincerely apologize to everyone who thought I was calling them uneducated.

AC

 

[cat person]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Woohoo!

And everyone no matter their beliefs surely wants what is best for their kitties! Group hug time!

I agree

time and time to show each other some

. You all get the idea

?

 

[amberthe bobcat]

Originally Posted by Cat Person

I have to agree with that. I am also not sure why people feel that way, do you know how that myth got started? Also my F3 Savannah loves his mouse a day

. Yes he eats way more then that do not worry folks

.

I don't know how that myth, of feeding raw will make your cat go wild, got started.
As for the mice, my bobcats go ummm, wild for them

You would think I was giving starving children the best candy or chocolate in the world. One right after another, they just about swallow it whole. I give them as after dinner treats when I have them

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by Cat Person

Yay we agree on something

. I think?

YES!!

 

[mschauer]

Re: Cat deaths as a result of the 2007 contamination

The actual count of deaths can never be known for the simple reason that there is no national, managed effort to identify and record the causes of suspicious deaths among pets.

What is known is that one of the first indications that there was something terribly wrong was when the the testing company hired by Menu Foods to conduct palatability tests before the contamination was discovered reported to Menu that cats were becoming ill and dying during the tests.

The testing began on Feb 27. By March 6, Of the 20 cats involved in the tests, 7 had died and another 9 were ill. That's 80% of the cats either ill or dead after eating the food for only 1 week.

Menu started announcing recalls on March 16. They determined that the contamination could have occured as early as early Dec when they started using wheat gluten imported from China.

And we are to believe that with tainted food distributed all across the US for a minimum of 3 months that only 14 cats died?

No we don't know the exact number but...

 

[cat person]

Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

I don't know how that myth, of feeding raw will make your cat go wild, got started.
As for the mice, my bobcats go ummm, wild for them

You would think I was giving starving children the best candy or chocolate in the world. One right after another, they just about swallow it whole. I give them as after dinner treats when I have them

At least your Bobcats eat it right away. My Savannah loves to play with his mouse a while before he eats it. But once he decides to eat the mouse it is gone in two bites

.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

YES!!

Yay! Hugs and

your way.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Sheez. No one ever said that.

I regularly recommend wet food. In fact, I recommend it far more often than I recommend raw. Heck, I've been recommending wet foods while this thread was in progress, and so have many of the other raw feeders.

I don't believe I ever said you didn't so I'm not sure where you are going with that statement. It appears you may have taken a comment to a personal level.

The best for me, for us? Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how much research, how much worry and anxiety-fraught nail-biting weighing of the facts goes into making a decision like this? How hard we seek to source the best meats for our littlest family members? I don't put half the effort into finding the variety for myself that I do for my cats, nor ensuring my own foods are as fresh and as high-quality as the meats I source for my clowder. No one comes to this decision lightly.

It is most definitely not the best diet for us, it's the best diet for the cats.

See, this proves my point that raw feeding isn't for everyone since I know I, and many others, would never put that much effort into feeding raw and as you say yourself, feeding raw can be worrying and an anxiety-fraught nail-biting decision even among those of you who are so dedicated.

This again? Really? *sigh*

Not sure what you mean by "this again? Really?"

The facts are what they are, and the proof is in the health of raw-fed cats all over the world.

AC

I'm certainly not debating your reasons for feeding raw and it doesn't matter how many links you provide to persons you feel are experts on the matter, I'm just saying that feeding raw isn't for everyone and our cats may well live as long as those fed raw unless they have other health issues. I've known folks that eat all sorts of junk food and they are more healthy than some folks that eat better diets. My friend was here on the weekend and she can't have butter, only 1% milk, very little to no cheese and other high fat foods due to high cholesteral levels and she is younger than me. I eat at least a pound of butter a week, drink 3 litres of homogenized milk, and the list goes on. I have no cholesterol problems and she does - go figure.

Some cats (and people) are going to get sick no matter what kind of healthy diet they are on and others will eat anything, abuse their bodies and outlive others. That's life!

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

What diet can't be dangerous? How many cats have died from kibble? How many cats are being fed completely inappropriate, grain and veggie filled crap in a bag because their owners didn't bother to do any research? I have ferrets, also obligate carnivores and there are many available kibbles out there with next to no meat in them and some even have little chunks of fruits and veggies that could cause a blockage, not to mention sugars and grains in a ferrets diet is directly linked to insulinoma disease. Research should be done no matter what diet is fed.

As far as feeding items that aren't in a natural diet, most do this with kibble or canned too, I feed my ball python mice, which aren't naturally occuring in Africa but mice/rats are what almost all pet ball pythons are fed and thrive on, my iguana gets various veggies, not the ones he'd be coming across in the wild and I don't spend all day balancing it out any more than I do the raw diet for the cat and ferrets, people seem to believe cats are some crazy difficult animals to feed and that you need to be a genius to handle it and that's silly.

^This

What I don't understand about this thread, is how people can think that meat leftovers, binders, preservatives, supplements instead of direct sources, and veggies (ALL cat foods have at least one of these) is healthier than meat that may be a few days old, but at least has all still contained in it minus maybe a little taurine. (Depending on whether you feed whole-prey vs chunks) (Also keep in mind that wild/feral/stray/outside/whatever cats will bury their prey and eat it later and be just fine.)

When I feed wet, I know that I'm not feeding the best diet. But for right now, due to freezer space, living arrangement, work hours and comfort level, I don't feed raw.

This shouldn't be an argument about 'well, raw isn't right for all people because..' because that's not what we are talking about. We are not talking about 'what diet is best for most people' or 'what diet is most convenient', we are talking about what diet is best for the cats. And that is raw.