Best diet for cats?

ducman69

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

I have no idea how they can make claims, that cooking meat does NOT destroy the nutrients in meat.
Cooking meat does destroy some heat-sensitive nutrients, such as taurine or vitamin C but they are added back in after cooking to at least minimum levels to ensure a complete and balanced diet per the AAFCO nutrient profile guidelines, enforced through the FDA, and recalled if lacking in any way. In fact, the raw diets fed to lions at zoos are typically supplemented as well to ensure the big wild cats are getting all their required nutrients, since merely processing the meat even raw and exposing it to the air oxidizes some nutrients and the diet isn't always as varied as it would otherwise be. Considering that the supplemented lions in captivity are often living over twice as long as they do in the wild, that diet is working well for them and that is what matters.

It would certainly be cheaper not to have to cook the food for domestic animals, but its done as the only reasonable effective way of killing the bacteria. Superfreezing can accomplish the same, but is expensive and I believe the FDA says has to be frozen 7 days to be considered safe. One thing is for certain though, is that Wesley is not a bobcat, a leopard, or a lion... although I'm pretty sure he thinks he is.


Most importantly, they are a proper weight through calorie control, with healthy teeth and gums, a shiny coat, properly formed stools, and are quite active on their convenient, cost effective, and safe feeding regimen that they seem to enjoy and look forward to every day. Results are what matter, and this is clearly working well for us so is a viable healthy option. Not THE option, but certainly one of many successful strategies, with pros and cons like anything else. It is merely a lack of acceptance of some of the known cons of the raw diet by impassioned advocates that I believe has created such a lengthy discussion.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

John, with all due respect, I don't think one can equate what you would feed your exotic (wild) cats with what one would feed a 15-20 lb domestic cat.

If I had a lion or tiger I'm pretty sure I would be feeding raw meat (and large quantities of such).
I cannot imagine feeding a large wild cat a diet of canned food or kibble.
A cat is a cat, whether they are a tiger or 15-20 lb domestic. Both designed to eat meat. They do make canned food for wildcats too, but I prefer to give them a raw diet. But with the larger wildcats, it is much easier to feed them the raw diet, because you would need a lot of cans to feed lets say, a tiger. My friends tiger gets 10-15 pounds of meat per day.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Ducman69

In fact, the raw diets fed to lions at zoos are typically supplemented as well to ensure the big wild cats are getting all their required nutrients, since merely processing the meat even raw and exposing it to the air oxidizes some nutrients.
Yes, I stated this in my posts, because I do the same for my big cats
 

cat person

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

A cat is a cat, whether they are a tiger or 15-20 lb domestic. Both designed to eat meat. They do make canned food for wildcats too, but I prefer to give them a raw diet. But with the larger wildcats, it is much easier to feed them the raw diet, because you would need a lot of cans to feed lets say, a tiger. My friends tiger gets 10-15 pounds of meat per day.
That is very very true. A cat is a cat is a cat. Especially nutritionally speaking
.
 

cat person

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Yes, I stated this in my posts, because I do the same for my big cats
That is not necessary with whole prey correct? Like a whole deer for your cougar or a whole rabbit for one of the bobcats.
 

ducman69

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

A cat is a cat, whether they are a tiger or 15-20 lb domestic. Both designed to eat meat. They do make canned food for wildcats too, but I prefer to give them a raw diet. But with the larger wildcats, it is much easier to feed them the raw diet, because you would need a lot of cans to feed lets say, a tiger. My friends tiger gets 10-15 pounds of meat per day.
And I suppose a great ape is a great ape, and a chimpanzee can be fed a glass of milk and spaghetti just like us? And Lance Armstrong is a big lover of pasta, so please don't be one of those "humans are only meant to eat raw veggies" people like my ex, or I'm bailing ASAP heh. Results are results, and dogs are not wolves anymore than domesticated cats are lions. I certainly wouldn't have two fasting days in a row for Wesley and Buttercup, as is common practice in zoos for big cats. They are a completely different species.
 

minka

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Originally Posted by Ducman69

And I suppose a great ape is a great ape, and a chimpanzee can be fed a glass of milk and spaghetti just like us?
Yes, in fact, they can. There were several studies done (as well as just random irresponsible people who thought chimps were cute) where chimps were raised just like a human child to see what would happen. That included being fed human food.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by Minka

Yes, in fact, they can. There were several studies done (as well as just random irresponsible people who thought chimps were cute) where chimps were raised just like a human child to see what would happen. That included being fed human food.
That may well be but was is the "best diet for the chimp"? This thread is about the best diet for a domesticated small cat.
How it got derailed to large exotic cats, wolves, dogs and chimps is mind-boggling.
 

ducman69

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

That may well be but was it the "best diet for the chimp"? This thread is about the best diet for a domesticated small cat.
How it got derailed to large exotic cats, wolves, dogs and chimps is mind-boggling.
Just wait for it... Godwin's Law will kick in soon enough.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by Ducman69

Just wait for it... Godwin's Law will kick in soon enough.
Again, it seems that I must bow to your vast, superior knowledge in all things.

At the same time, I'll continue to try to keep this thread focused on the best diets for our domestic cats. Comparisons to exotic cat food and corvettes versus a regular ole chevy don't do much for me personally or how it relates to what I should feed my Bijou.

Just as an offside note, I prefer a Pantera over a Corvette, particularly the one we had that was yellow and black.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Ducman69

And I suppose a great ape is a great ape, and a chimpanzee can be fed a glass of milk and spaghetti just like us? And Lance Armstrong is a big lover of pasta, so please don't be one of those "humans are only meant to eat raw veggies" people like my ex, or I'm bailing ASAP heh. Results are results, and dogs are not wolves anymore than domesticated cats are lions. I certainly wouldn't have two fasting days in a row for Wesley and Buttercup, as is common practice in zoos for big cats. They are a completely different species.
Boy, this is certainly an educated response
Yor are right on one thing, dogs are NOT wolves, they are domesticated and are a man made species. But cats, our so called "domesticated" cats are NOT domesticated. They have adapted to living with humans. Our domestic cats have not changed over the years they have lived with us, unlike dogs who have. Just because zoos fast big cats, does not mean it is correct. I do not agree with it and do not fast my big cats. I do however, adjust their diet with the seasons. But yes a cat is a cat. Biologically, they are the same, just different size. Cats are meant to eat meat and the best meat is whole prey or raw. Doesn't mean that commercial canned or dry isn't any good. But, with feeding raw, you do not have as many health issues associated with commercial diets loaded with corn or other grains most commercial dieats have. I have seen some of these so called high end costly commercial cats foods with GARLIC in them. Garlic by the way, is poison to cats. What is good for humans is not good for cats. And what the heck does MY post have to do with primates??? Or humans eating raw veggies?? I was speaking about cats.
 

cat person

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Boy, this is certainly an educated response
Yor are right on one thing, dogs are NOT wolves, they are domesticated and are a man made species. But cats, our so called "domesticated" cats are NOT domesticated. They have adapted to living with humans. Our domestic cats have not changed over the years they have lived with us, unlike dogs who have. Just because zoos fast big cats, does not mean it is correct. I do not agree with it and do not fast my big cats. I do however, adjust their diet with the seasons. But yes a cat is a cat. Biologically, they are the same, just different size. Cats are meant to eat meat and the best meat is whole prey or raw. Doesn't mean that commercial canned or dry isn't any good. But, with feeding raw, you do not have as many health issues associated with commercial diets loaded with corn or other grains most commercial dieats have. ...
I am sorry Ducman69 cause I normally agree with you. But I have to say Amberthebobcat is 100% correct in my opinion. While I have never owned big cats, I have worked with Bobcats, Lynx, Jungle Cats and high percent Jungle Cat hybrids. The whole prey diet (organs and bones) is what these cats where fed. The cats where very healthy on this diet.

Lastly Amberthebobcat is correct about the "domestic cat" in my opinion as well. If you insist man has changed the domestic cat I would say it is in color only. Maybe to a lesser extent size and coat type.

But a cat nutritionally is a cat, or a cat is a cat!
 

furryfriends50

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Dogs and wolves share 99.8% of the same mitochondrial DNA. All humans share 99.8% of the same mitochondrial DNA with each other.

Humans aren't chimps. Humans can not produce an offspring with a chimp. However, dogs & wolves can produce very healthy offspring together.

Yet, dogs can not be compared to a wolf, but apparently a person can be compared with a chimp/ape? Oy vey...


As far as lions and cats being the basic same thing, http://feline-nutrition.org/one-page.../cats-are-cats is a one-page-guide put out by the Feline Nutrition Education Society (FNES) about that very thing.
 

arlyn

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IMO yes, a raw diet is the best, each type to varying degrees (whole prey, Frankenprey, commercially made raw), for a cat with healthy GI flora and fauna.

It isn't, however, the best diet for cats if their caretakers cannot feed it for whatever reason.

I cannot feed raw at this time, but I do make the point of buying fresh raw treats for my pets (chicken wings, necks, organs, with the addition of soup bones for the dog) from a local butcher.

The best diet for your cat may vary depending on many things; storage, cost, time investment and what your cat eats and does well on.

But in general, cats do best on raw.

There is not a doubt in my mind that my geriatric, CRF cat would be much better off on raw. The evidence I have is her much improved state just since switching to grain free a year ago and reducing her dry and increasing her canned foods.

But, human caretakers have to be 100% comfortable with what they feed, which is where the huge debacle comes from.

I haven't really seen anyone here on this thread fault, or demean anyone who doesn't feed as they do, so what I don't understand is the occasional animosity that sometimes creeps up.


Someone may agree with you on the raw food argument, but if they aren't comfortable doing it, IMO, the cat is better off as it is very easy to make mistakes when creating your own raw diets.
 

ducman69

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Boy, this is certainly an educated response
Yor are right on one thing, dogs are NOT wolves, they are domesticated and are a man made species. But cats, our so called "domesticated" cats are NOT domesticated.
It is scientific verifiable fact that the Felis Catus species has been assigned "domesticated" status. To claim that the Domestic Cat is NOT domesticated is to reclassify the species and counter consensus in the scientific community: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat
Originally Posted by furryfriends50

Humans aren't chimps. Humans can not produce an offspring with a chimp. However, dogs & wolves can produce very healthy offspring together.
Humans and apes are nearly 99% genetically identical, and tiny fractions of a percent make a huge difference. Do you know how tiny the genetic difference is for example in a human that IS lactose tolerant and is not? That absolutely tiny single genetic distinction can make all the difference on whether or not dairy products are a healthy part of a diet or not. It should be strikingly obvious that domesticated dogs are physically vastly different from a gray wolf. You further counter your own argument in that a lion CAN NOT be artificially inseminated by a domestic house cat.

FNES is not an official recognized organization to quote with biblical authority on anything, as I could create a similar CNES tomorrow with an equally professional looking website in Dreamweaver... in fact I think I've been inspired! PETA is another private group, and in fact far larger and more well renowned than FNES, but I would wager that you don't treat their opinions as gospel, or else you would not have a pet at all.
Originally Posted by Cat Person

While I have never owned big cats, I have worked with Bobcats, Lynx, Jungle Cats and high percent Jungle Cat hybrids. The whole prey diet (organs and bones) is what these cats where fed. The cats where very healthy on this diet.
I agree completely, and in another thread have mentioned the great success zoos have had with raw diets. I have stated that a domestic cat is not a wild big cat, having been domesticated in 7500BC, and thus exposed to far different and more varied food sources in close proximity to humans than any such wild animal ever has. As was shown by Egyptologists, cats were very well cared for with one feline tomb holding as many as 85,000 cats, and evidence that shows the cats were regularly fed bread, milk, and fish from the Nile. BTW, fun fact is that not only were cats considered part of the family unit, but cat worship was actually quite popular with a large temple in Bubastis.

To avoid confusion, again, I have not disputed in the least that a raw diet is healthy for big wild cats. I have stated that the domestic cat is a domesticated animal, and does not require a raw diet to be healthy, in addition to pointing out that there are some cons to the choice as well due to limitations in sanitary processing/rendering of industry poultry, human error, and other factors mentioned.
 

furryfriends50

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So then, if you say that that 0.2% makes a difference, then you and I would be a completely different species, according to your reasoning. If I were to go to the hospital today because of some health issue, would I be treated using a different medicine than the next person down the line with the same problem? Would a vet treat a Great Dane with a different medicine than they would a chihuahua? If that 0.2% made a difference (which it doesn't) then why isn't there a different medicine product for each and every dog, or each and every person? Because they are the same thing - that's why!

Would you consider that a wild mustang and a quarter horse to be the same species, or entirely different?

People are people. Dogs are wolves. Cats are tigers. Simple as that


From dictionary.com:

cat
   /kæt/ Show Spelled [kat] Show IPA noun, verb, cat·ted, cat·ting.
noun
1. a small domesticated carnivore, Felis domestica or F. catus, bred in a number of varieties.
2. any of several carnivores of the family Felidae, as the lion, tiger, leopard or jaguar, etc.
dog
   /dɔg, dɒg/ Show Spelled [dawg, dog] Show IPA noun, verb, dogged, dog·ging.
noun
1.
a domesticated canid, Canis familiaris, bred in many varieties.
2.
any carnivore of the dogfamily Canidae, having prominent canine teeth and, in the wild state, a long and slender muzzle, a deep-chested muscular body, a bushy tail, and large, erect ears.
car·ni·vore
   /ˈkɑrnəˌvɔr, -ˌvoʊr/ Show Spelled[kahr-nuh-vawr, -vohr] Show IPA
noun
1.
an animal that eats flesh.
2.
a flesh-eating mammal of the order Carnivora, comprising the dogs, cats, bears, seals, and weasels.
For several years, dogs and wolves were classified under two different species names - canis familiaris for a domestic dog, and canis lupus for the grey wolf. However, recently some scientists decided that wolves and dogs are both similar enough to be able to belong to the same species group, so they reclassified domestic dogs as a wolf subspecies calling the domestic dog "Canis lupus familiaris".

There is a difference between an animal being domesticated versus being tame. Cats are tame.

Actually, a person only shares 98.5% of their DNA with a chimp.
 

ducman69

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Thank you for verifying that domestic cats are by definition domesticated animals.


Cats are not cats. A lion and a domestic cat are part of the same family of animals. They are not part of the same species nor even the same genus. Domestication of animals further produces measurable physical changes in animals, including over time food source flexibility as the animal adapts to food sources made available to it in close proximity to humans, just as Europeans adapted lactose tolerance.

The latest research indicates that domestication predates Egyptians. The earliest direct evidence of cat domestication is a kitten that was buried alongside a human 9,500 years ago in Cyprus. See - "In the Light of Evolution III: Two Centuries of Darwin Sackler Colloquium: From wild animals to domestic pets, an evolutionary view of domestication"

Considering the high number of offspring and shorter lifespan of the species, 9500 years is closer to the genetic drift possible in humans in approximately 150K years. To put that in perspective, the homosapien species is believed to have branched off approximately 300K years ago.
 

auntie crazy

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Call a cat whatever you like, it's their physiology that matters. As an obligate carnivore (not just any old carnivore) cats are uniquely, specifically and extraordinarily-well designed to thrive on a prey-animal based diet.

Cats on a balanced raw diet do not suffer from serious obesity, diabetes, urinary tract disease, or IBD. Cats transitioned from commercial diets to a raw diet see vast improvement and/or total eradication of these ailments, because a raw, prey-based diet is what cats are built to use as fuel for every system in their bodies.

Other, human, factors may impact the final decision a cat owner makes when choosing what to feed, but they don't make the above any less true.

AC
 
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