Best diet for cats?

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I'm certainly not debating your reasons for feeding raw and it doesn't matter how many links you provide to persons you feel are experts on the matter, I'm just saying that feeding raw isn't for everyone and our cats may well live as long as those fed raw unless they have other health issues. I've known folks that eat all sorts of junk food and they are more healthy than some folks that eat better diets. My friend was here on the weekend and she can't have butter, only 1% milk, very little to no cheese and other high fat foods due to high cholesteral levels and she is younger than me. I eat at least a pound of butter a week, drink 3 litres of homogenized milk, and the list goes on. I have no cholesterol problems and she does - go figure.

Some cats (and people) are going to get sick no matter what kind of healthy diet they are on and others will eat anything, abuse their bodies and outlive others. That's life!

Well, I see part of the issue here; some confusion about my intentions that's affecting receipt of my posts. You think I'm saying everyone should be feeding raw, period.

That's not what I'm saying at all, Linda. What I'm doing - all I'm doing - is providing information so that folks can make their own decisions with more data in hand than just what's put out by the pet food industry.

None of us know what we don't know until we do, and if folks don't realize that a raw animal-based diet is what an obligate carnivore is built to thrive on, that such a diet is extraordinarily nutritious with several health benefits, as safe as commercial products (some of them ARE commercial products), and as easy to manage as the cat owner wants it to be, they'll never even consider raw when deciding what to plunk down on kitty's plate.

And speaking of easy to manage, cat owners who decide to feed raw have the unique option of taking control of their cat's diet or continuing to trust the pet food industry. Feeding raw can be just as easy as scooting down to the local pet store and picking out the raw food manufacturer and flavor of your choice.

Just that easy. If folks are worried about bacterial concerns in the human food chain or don't have the time to home-prepare (etc.), and are more comfortable trusting the pet food industry, they certainly have that option. (PetFoodDirect.com has nearly two-dozen varieties, not including freeze-dried options.)

Home-prepared Raw

(Natural Diet Information Resources for more info.)

If they chose to take control of their cat's diet, to put sourcing and assembling of the highest-quality products into their own hands, they have that option, too. And, again, they have a nice range in the degree of time and effort they wish to devote to making their cat's food. First, if they have the finances and can handle the concept, they can simply buy, thaw and feed whole prey. Very easy ('though not an option for most).

The next two options require more thought and care. Taking responsibility for providing for your cat's menu means you can guarantee she's getting the best you can find for her. It also means you need to take the time to research the issue thoroughly. (Of course, many TCS members were brought here because that's what they're already doing in their search for the "best" commercial food.) All recipes and menus are based upon the concept that the cat will thrive best when she's fed what nature intended for her to eat.

There are many well-researched ground recipes thoughtfully put together and made available to the public by veterinarians, nutritional experts, etc., both online and through various books. Although following a recipe is very easy and people do it every day, care must be taken in choosing which recipe to follow (I would recommend those on CatInfo.org and Feline-Nutrition.org). Understanding why the ingredients are present in the quantities they are isn't critical to making the food, but it's strongly recommended. Absolutely no ingredient substitutions should be made without thoroughly understanding what you're doing.

Finally, a cat owner can opt for frankenprey, a compromise between the ease of whole prey and the complication of grinding involving the feeding of chunks of meat, organ and bone-in meals on a schedule. This method requires only a little prep work, but a very solid understanding of the 80/10/5/5 guideline. You MUST understand what 80%-87% meat, fat, skin, sinew, connective tissue and heart, 5%-10% edible bone, 3%-5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ means and why it's important from the cat's perspective. The rawcat and rawfeeding yahoo groups are absolutely awesome resources for anyone interested in feeding a frankenprey diet.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

With such a wide range of options, feeding raw is simply a matter of choosing how much control you want over what your cat eats, and then doing what's necessary to make that happen - whether that means picking something from Petco's freezer, or adding Fluffy's foods to your weekly grocery list.

Best regards!

AC

P.S. These are very high-level descriptions! If you want more detailed info or a list of resources, please feel free to pm me.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

That's not what I'm saying at all, Linda. What I'm doing - all I'm doing - is providing information so that folks can make their own decisions with more data in hand than just what's put out by the pet food industry.

Some of that information is unsubstantiated and/or unprovable though, particularly the overly broad comparisons of a completely undefined "raw" diet (which could be anything that isn't cooked) and commercial (which is available in such a fantastic variety which services markets from ultra-affordable to ultra-premium) and thus should not be shared as fact, particularly with the lack of reasonably sized scientific studies.

Originally Posted by Minka

What I don't understand about this thread, is how people can think that meat leftovers, binders, preservatives, supplements instead of direct sources, and veggies (ALL cat foods have at least one of these) is healthier than meat that may be a few days old, but at least has all still contained in it minus maybe a little taurine.

Earlier you argued against me when I stated that virtually all commercial cat foods have some veggies in it, to the point of getting a thread locked, and now state it as obvious fact? Oh well, at least we finally agree on that, lol.

And after all this tremendous amount of information shared, are you truly confused as to the concerns raised?

Quick rehash: Commercial food is health-safety regulated for completeness of diet per AAFCO nutrition guidelines, for safety of eating as prepared, and is recalled when a danger is found. Commercial meat one finds in a grocery store is not regulated for feline nutritional completeness, is pronounced unsuitable for raw consumption by the FDA, and the few commercial raw diets submitted to the American Veterinarian Medical Association for recommendation were denounced as nutritionally incomplete with undue risk of bacterial contamination as shown earlier in this thread. Safety regulation does not mean that the food is safer, and as shown there is no governing body to make statistical comparisons to commercial food, but the lack of oversight is a perfectly legitimate concern by some.

Edit: Oh btw, in COMPLETE mockery of our long nutritional thread here, a coworker early this morning at shift change saw Wesley and Buttercup as my computer's dual-screen desktop wallpaper, and it sparked a discussion about how he is looking to adopt again now that his cat has crossed the rainbow bridge. She was over 19 years old, and... free-fed cheap friskies dry food, something nearly all of us would agree is not very healthy. I asked if she had UTIs and the like, and at least he wasn't aware of any. Ugh! Apparently good genes still trumps all.

 

[cat person]

The best diet is one your cat will eat, you can afford, and keeps the cat reasonably healthy.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

And speaking of easy to manage, cat owners who decide to feed raw have the unique option of taking control of their cat's diet or continuing to trust the pet food industry. Feeding raw can be just as easy as scooting down to the local pet store and picking out the raw food manufacturer and flavor of your choice.

Just that easy. If folks are worried about bacterial concerns in the human food chain or don't have the time to home-prepare (etc.), and are more comfortable trusting the pet food industry, they certainly have that option. (PetFoodDirect.com has nearly two-dozen varieties, not including freeze-dried options.)

I don't even know how I forgot about prepackaged raw. O__o

For everybody who decided that they weren't going to feed raw because of bacterial concerns, here's your solution!!

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Earlier you argued against me when I stated that virtually all commercial cat foods have some veggies in it, to the point of getting a thread locked, and now state it as obvious fact? Oh well, at least we finally agree on that, lol.

*facepalm*
When you say 'these', that means multiple Ducman. So when you use it at the end of a list, that mean it applies to ALL objects on that list.
Or in this situation, I will rearrange the sentence -
What I don't understand about this thread is how people can think that meat that may be a few days old, but at least has all still contained in it minus maybe a little taurine, is unhealthier than cat food, when ALL cat foods have at least one of these: meat leftovers, binders, preservatives, supplements instead of direct sources, and veggies.

Please don't just find stupid things to nitpick at, I really don't appreciate it.


Edit:
Oh, and another thing that logically doesn't make sense.
One of the concerns here is how long the meat has to sit around/be frozen/etc, before it gets to the store to then be used as a frankenprey/ground diet. Well, why are we presuming that meat going into pet food didn't sit around anywhere? I know pet food manufacturers don't have their own animals on hand, so the meat in your cats can/bag had to be slaughtered, processed in a similar way to human meat, get on a truck and be shipped to the factory, be frozen/refrozen when it gets there, preserved, and then put in a can/bag that may sit around for months before it's even shipped off to a pet store.
Just saying.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

What I don't understand about this thread is how people can think that meat that may be a few days old, but at least has all still contained in it minus maybe a little taurine, is unhealthier than cat food

Which has been very specifically answered:
1) The raw-diet is not regulated for completeness as the commercial cat food is.
2) Poultry in particular is not regulated or intended for raw safety per the FDA.

Thus because it can potentially have unsafe levels of bacteria and there is no safety check regarding dietary completeness, it could potentially be unhealthy compared to cooked and regulated commercial food (in spite of whatever other ingredients any particular recipe may or may not have).

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Which has been very specifically answered:
1) The raw-diet is not regulated for completeness as the commercial cat food is.
2) Poultry in particular is not regulated or intended for raw safety per the FDA.

Thus because it can potentially have unsafe levels of bacteria and there is no safety check regarding dietary completeness, it could potentially be unhealthy compared to cooked and regulated commercial food (in spite of whatever other ingredients any particular recipe may or may not have).

1) Commercial cat food choices INCLUDE raw diets. I have visited, in person, every locally-owned pet store within a 50-mile radius of my home and every single one of them sells commercially-prepared raw foods. PetFoodDirect.com has at least 18 different varieties.

2) If this is an issue for you, see number 1.

AC

 

[Willowy]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

“Interestingly enough, the diseases that are quite common in cats now were virtually unknown in the late 70's when I was in veterinary school. We had two donated diabetic beagle siblings who lived in the hospital and taught us about this strange disease. It was something we never saw in cats, and it was pretty uncommon in dogs for that matter. We learned of hypothyroidism from several canine cases, but cats didn't have thyroid problems, and hyperthyroidism was not in the books or the exam rooms. We saw horrible skin allergies in dogs, with crusts and scabs and red feet and unending itchiness, but we didn't see cats with this disease, either.

Well, if you've been observant in recent years, you know that these chronic diseases are fairly commonplace now in the feline population. As are heartworm (again, a dog disease originally), asthma, kidney failure, inflammatory bowel disease, dental calculus and decay, heart disease, and cancer. Why? Could it be that the cat is now following the same road that the dog has gone down? I think so, and what's more, I think we need to redefine what is the best way to raise a healthy animal.â€

I kind of think this is because more people take their pets to the vet nowadays. My mom's childhood dog had seizures, and they never took her to the vet until it was time to put her to sleep. And they NEVER took their cats to the vet for anything. So I'm not sure that there was a lower incidence of those diseases back then, just a lower rate of treating those diseases. Just the way it was back then.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Which has been very specifically answered:
1) The raw-diet is not regulated for completeness as the commercial cat food is.
2) Poultry in particular is not regulated or intended for raw safety per the FDA.

Thus because it can potentially have unsafe levels of bacteria and there is no safety check regarding dietary completeness, it could potentially be unhealthy compared to cooked and regulated commercial food (in spite of whatever other ingredients any particular recipe may or may not have).

The FDA isn't God you know. Or Mother Nature. Mother Nature says obligate carnivores eat meat based prey only.

 

[ducman69]

Certainly, AAFCO commercially prepared raw food would then be regulated the same. However, AFAIK, the FDA/AAFCO have not signed off on the safety of any commercial raw food to date, and it would thus lack the seal. The ones in the examples submitted to the AVMA were found to be incomplete for example and were not endorsed.

Are there any approved brands available now?

Originally Posted by Minka

Mother Nature says obligate carnivores eat meat based prey only.

As demonstrated, domestic cats have had more than meat in their diet for thousands of years, and commercial food certainly should obtain the overwhelming majority of its calories from meat and fat as anything I would feed absolutely is, and is certified to AAFCO tested protocols for nutritional completeness in macro and micro nutrients.

Processed supermarket poultry/beef is also by no stretch of the imagination "prey based meat" in either source or preparation, and even lions have their meat artificially supplemented.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Certainly, AAFCO commercially prepared raw food would then be regulated the same. However, AFAIK, the FDA/AAFCO have not signed off on the safety of any commercial raw food to date, and it would thus lack the seal. The ones in the examples submitted to the AVMA were found to be incomplete for example and were not endorsed.

Are there any approved brands available now?

Google search took me two seconds to find this: http://www.pawnaturaw.com/faqs.html#claims

Another 2 seconds: http://www.k9rawdiet.com/AAFCO-Formu...ravo-c-41.html

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Processed supermarket poultry/beef is also by no stretch of the imagination "prey based meat" in either source or preparation, and even lions have their meat artificially supplemented.

Neither is the sludge found in cans or the dried spheres found in bags. What's your point?

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

Google search took me two seconds to find this: http://www.pawnaturaw.com/faqs.html#claims
Another 2 seconds: http://www.k9rawdiet.com/AAFCO-Formu...ravo-c-41.html

You might want to spend a few extra seconds and verify that they carry the AAFCO seal as I asked, and not just "formulated to meet AAFCO guidelines" or "exceeds AAFCO guidelines", since neither claims to be approved.

Nature's Variety indicates that they are the only raw food manufacturer on the market to have actually passed AAFCO Protocol Feeding Trials and gotten the seal:
http://www.naturesvariety.com/vet/aafco

So that is good there is one available now that is at least nutritionally complete even if it isn't clean of bacteria, but please buyer beware on the others.

Originally Posted by Minka

Neither is the sludge found in cans or the dried spheres found in bags. What's your point?

You just stated my point, that neither is a natural prey-based diet.

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Are there any approved brands available now?

Nature's Variety for sure. Primal and Bravo I think.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

You might want to spend a few extra seconds and verify that they carry the AAFCO seal as I asked, and not just "formulated to meet AAFCO guidelines" or "exceeds AAFCO guidelines", since neither claims to be approved.

Nature's Variety indicates that they are the only raw food manufacturer on the market to have actually passed AAFCO Protocol Feeding Trials and gotten the seal:
http://www.naturesvariety.com/vet/aafco

So that is good there is one available now that is at least nutritionally complete even if it isn't clean of bacteria, but please buyer beware on the others.

Okay, so NOW that we've established that one food has a fancy seal (because you know meeting guidelines isn't the same darn thing..), what do you have to say to that? Would you NOW consider that prepackaged diet to be better than canned or dry?

You just stated my point, that neither is a natural prey-based diet.

Okay, so then if canned food, dry food, and raw diets don't meet the natural prey based diet requirements, then what's the point of trying to use 'its not the same as Real prey' against a raw diet???

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

....
...Processed supermarket poultry/beef is also by no stretch of the imagination "prey based meat" in either source or preparation, and even lions have their meat artificially supplemented.

If poultry and beef are not acceptable meat sources for cats, why does the pet food industry use them as the two primary sources of meat ingredients? If only mice, rats, birds, insects, etc. are suitable for cats, why aren't there any commercial products based off any of them?

Because it doesn't matter what kind of animal the food products come from. Rat, rabbit, kangaroo, deer, bear, bison... cats can and do thrive on diets based off animals other than what they can catch themselves.

What's important is the entire list of ingredients, how they're balanced and how heavily processed is the final product, not the type of animal from which the meats are sourced.

AC

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

Okay, so then if canned food, dry food, and raw diets don't meet the natural prey based diet requirements, then what's the point of trying to use 'its not the same as Real prey' against a raw diet???

I was responding to the claims by Auntie Crazy that raw is somehow more natural or prey-based than typical commercial food, which we seem to agree is wrong. Neither wet nor dry nor typical raw are natural diets nor prey based, and that's fine.

Originally Posted by Minka

Would you NOW consider that prepackaged diet to be better than canned or dry?

Better than what canned or dry? As stated many times before, there is no such thing as "canned" or "dry" as a single all-encompassing recipe to compare to, and "better" is subjective based on the needs/budget/lifestyle/etc of the individual. Personally, I would still rather feed say ByNature Chicken over Nature's Variety Raw since there is likely substantial cost difference, I know By Nature is free of bacteria since it has been hygienically cooked and sealed, and it would be easier to feed (pop and serve) with a much superior shelf life to stock up on.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

If poultry and beef are not acceptable meat sources for cats, why does the pet food industry use them as the two primary sources of meat ingredients? If only mice, rats, birds, insects, etc. are suitable for cats, why aren't there any commercial products based off any of them? Because it doesn't matter what kind of animal the food products come from.

I think poultry and beef are excellent. We agree completely, it is completely irrelevant what is "natural", and raw is not "natural". I may have misinterpreted, but you were the most vocal about "natural" and "prey diet" and such descriptions for raw-diets to imply they are somehow superior, which I believed to be an incorrect claim.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

...
I think poultry and beef are excellent. We agree completely, it is completely irrelevant what is "natural", and raw is not "natural". I may have misinterpreted, but you were the most vocal about "natural" and "prey diet" and such descriptions for raw-diets to imply they are somehow superior, which I believed to be an incorrect claim.

A balanced raw diet is more natural and superior in the nutritional benefits it provides to the cat than are heavily processed, synthetically supplemented products. The ingredients are fresher, more complete and more easily and thoroughly broken down and absorbed by the cat. It's what the cat's systems are built to run on and, like a beautifully fine-tuned engine given the high-quality fuel it deserves, it's what they "purr" the best on.

I have no idea how the pet food companies have determined what to put in their raw mixes, but the majority of home-prepared raw recipes and menus are prey-based in their nutritional (meat/bone/organ) profiles. Rodents are roughly 5% bone and 4% liver, rabbits are slightly less than 10% bone and less than 4% liver. Birds have even lower bone and organ content. An average of the prey animals typically eaten by cats distills down to 80%-87% meat, fat, skin, sinew, connective tissue and heart, 5%-10% edible bone, 3%-5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ (Tissue Percentage of some Common Prey of the Cat).

If you can't wrap your mind around this. If, for you, the only diet that deserves to be called "natural" or "prey-based" is an actual go-out-and-hunt-it-on-your-own diet, then, at a minimum, I'd advise you to stay off the raw-feeding forums so you don't get your feelings hurt.

AC

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

A balanced raw diet is more natural and superior in the nutritional benefits it provides to the cat than are heavily processed, synthetically supplemented products. The ingredients are fresher, more complete and more easily and thoroughly broken down and absorbed by the cat. It's what the cat's systems are built to run on and, like a beautifully fine-tuned engine given the high-quality fuel it deserves, it's what they "purr" the best on.

1) "superior in nutritional benefits"
- Unsubstantiated: "Raw" is not specifically defined, commercial wet and dry food recipes varies tremendously in quality/nutrition, and no study could verify such a generic claim.

2) "ingredients are fresher"
- False: "Freshness" if defined by the amount of bacteria in the meat, is typically in favor of cooked food. Food is considered "frozen" with respect to freshness when deeply frozen, dehydrated, or canned, and the time from slaughter to can is typically less than slaughter to truck to shelf to home to preparation, at the very least making the statement not universally true.

3) "more complete"
- Unsubstantiated: Only one commercial raw food is verified for nutritional completeness in any official capacity, and home prepared meals are unregulated and thus can be incomplete.

4) "more easily and thoroughly broken down and absorbed"
- Unsubstantiated: AVMA does not know of any evidence to substantiated this claim, and typically cooked meat is more easily/thoroughly broken down since cell membranes are destroyed.

5) "It's what the cat's systems are built to run on"
- False/Misleading: Cat's were not built to run on uncooked human commercial poultry, at least no more than commercial wet/dry cat foods.

6) "it's what they "purr" the best on."
- True: A study by Dr Emmett Brown concluded that cat purrs vibrate 20% stronger when fed a raw diet. However, the study also concluded that hot dogs and cat purring caused cancer.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I was responding to the claims by Auntie Crazy that raw is somehow more natural or prey-based than typical commercial food, which we seem to agree is wrong. Neither wet nor dry nor typical raw are natural diets nor prey based, and that's fine.

No, I never said raw wasn't more natural than dry or wet. I said it didn't meet the the natural prey based requirements, but only because I was reiterating what you said.

Better than what canned or dry? As stated many times before, there is no such thing as "canned" or "dry" as a single all-encompassing recipe to compare to, and "better" is subjective based on the needs/budget/lifestyle/etc of the individual. Personally, I would still rather feed say ByNature Chicken over Nature's Variety Raw since there is likely substantial cost difference, I know By Nature is free of bacteria since it has been hygienically cooked and sealed, and it would be easier to feed (pop and serve) with a much superior shelf life to stock up on.

Yes there is because both dry and canned have some sort of unnatural ingredient to them. Whether it be preservatives, fillers or veggies it doesn't matter, they still have an unnatural quality to them.
Now I will ask again: Now that you realize there is a AAFCO approved prepackaged raw food, do you agree it is best? Yes or no?
(Stop talking about what is more convenient or affordable, talk about what is the best diet for the cat. Underlined parts of the above quote do no pertain to what is best for the cat.)

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

You might want to spend a few extra seconds and verify that they carry the AAFCO seal as I asked, and not just "formulated to meet AAFCO guidelines" or "exceeds AAFCO guidelines", since neither claims to be approved.

Nature's Variety indicates that they are the only raw food manufacturer on the market to have actually passed AAFCO Protocol Feeding Trials and gotten the seal:
http://www.naturesvariety.com/vet/aafco

So that is good there is one available now that is at least nutritionally complete even if it isn't clean of bacteria, but please buyer beware on the others.

Many prescription foods dry or canned along with those available OTC have not gone through AAFCO feeding trials or been approved. Just because a food meets AAFCO guidelines does not make it a great food. Beneful probably meets AAFCO guidelines for dog food but it's a terrible food.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by sweetpea24

many prescription foods dry or canned along with those available otc have not gone through aafco feeding trials or been approved. Just because a food meets aafco guidelines does not make it a great food. Beneful probably meets aafco guidelines for dog food but it's a terrible food.

thank you!!!