5lb Whole Carcass Ground Rabbit Supplement Amount?

[valentine319]

Thank you!

What about udos? Flora Udo's Choice Oil, 3-6-9 Blend, 32 Ounce
Today is the first day of full raw. I wanted to sure she had a bit of time off canned (at least a week) before trying fish oil. Also it needs to be during vet hours if she claws herself bloody.

 

[valentine319]

I did add the egg yolks. She seemed fine with them.

 

[valentine319]

I have this left.
The Missing Link Well Blend Food Sensitive Skin, Coat & More Nutritional Supplement for Dogs and Cats - 1 lb
Ugh I'm really not big on the ingredients.

 

[dorimon]

Read it again. If using krill oil or green-lipped mussel oil, then they suggest supplementing D. It does not say, if not using fish oil, then supplement.

Krill and green-lipped mussel don't have vitamin D. Salmon, sardines, etc. are sources of vitamin D.

If you would like to interpret that statement in this fashion, that is up to you. Do your own research and make your own decisions. I've discussed vitamin D supplementation with the author of the recipe/document, when I was tweaking a recipe for my own cats. It is dangerous to have too much vitamin D, but also important to have enough. Yes, vitamin D is fat-soluble, but the maximum AAFCO recommended amount is also very high, so vitamin D toxicity shouldn't be a concern.

You can also join the Raw Feeding for IBD Cats group on FB and ask the author (Laurie) there... you don't have to take my word for it. Every pet parent should do their own research and feel comfortable with what they are feeding. There are many different schools of thought when it comes to raw feeding Some choose not to supplement at all!

 

[orange&white]

I will stick with the research I've done since 2008 and advise against Vitamin D supplementation.

Every pet parent should do their own research and feel comfortable with what they are feeding. There are many different schools of thought when it comes to raw feeding !

That is correct.

 

[valentine319]

I am doing research everyday. So far I've made the following decision. I'm using missing link sensitive until i see if something with molecular distillation makes fish oil an option. I will actually try her on a piece of shrimp (krill is a crustation) and if that works I'll go with that.

I will add D if i go with krill oil.

I'm still doing research so it might change. Thank you everyone for the info and I'll still be checking other boards.

 

[mschauer]

orange&white said: ↑
Read it again. If using krill oil or green-lipped mussel oil, then they suggest supplementing D. It does not say, if not using fish oil, then supplement.

Krill and green-lipped mussel don't have vitamin D. Salmon, sardines, etc. are sources of vitamin D.

If you would like to interpret that statement in this fashion, that is up to you. Do your own research and make your own decisions. I've discussed vitamin D supplementation with the author of the recipe/document, when I was tweaking a recipe for my own cats. It is dangerous to have too much vitamin D, but also important to have enough. Yes, vitamin D is fat-soluble, but the maximum AAFCO recommended amount is also very high, so vitamin D toxicity shouldn't be a concern.

You can also join the Raw Feeding for IBD Cats group on FB and ask the author (Laurie) there... you don't have to take my word for it. Every pet parent should do their own research and feel comfortable with what they are feeding. There are many different schools of thought when it comes to raw feeding Some choose not to supplement at all!

As the person who prepared the analysis in the linked to document I can clear up the confusion here. The recipe requires a source of vitamin D over what is provided by the non-fishy ingredients. If salmon, anchovy or sardine oil is used, as they sometimes are as a source of omega 3's, they will provide sufficient vit D in addition to the omega 3's. If krill oil or green lipped mussel is used as the source of omega 3's they do not provide sufficient vit D and so supplemental vit D must be added.

 

[orange&white]

The batch of food used for analysis of nutrients used cod liver oil (zero liver) and the salmon oil supplement. No liver was used in the food batch analyzed, but liver is used in the recipe, not cod liver oil. That makes the nutrient analysis of the Vitamins A&D virtually worthless.

I understand that the recipe creator recommends Vitamin D supplement when not using an oily fish oil. This is perhaps a good recommendation for people whose cats have IBD, lymphoma, or other health issue which causes them to concurrently have lower levels of Vitamin D. Vitamin D is not a recommended supplement for healthy cats.

I continue to be convinced that people wishing to supplement Vitamin D (regardless of the type of Omega-3 oil used) should have their cat's level tested first and only supplement Vit D if the cat's test indicates insufficient levels of the vitamin. Supplementing D, if is isn't insufficient, can throw a cat into hypercalcemia and result in a heart attack.

 

[mschauer]

I don't know where you are getting your information from but the AAFCO recommends adult cat food contain a minimum of 500 IU vit D/kg DM. The established safe upper limit (SUL) of vit D is 10,000 IU/kg DM. Symptoms of hypervitaminosis, including hypercalcemia, have been reported when foods exceed the SUL but no one is suggesting exceeding that limit or even getting anywhere near it.

Remember we talking about formulating a food from scratch, not supplementing a commercially produced one that is already formulated with sufficient vit D . There is no danger of hypervitaminosis from following the AAFCO guidelines and that is what we are doing.

Edit: BTW, while only one analysis was posted we verified that all variations Laurie suggested would result in a formulation that adhered to AAFCO guidelines.

 

[orange&white]

Yes, you know as well as I do that AAFCO operates to the benefit of the pet food industry, not to the benefit of consumers or to our pets.

You will find several raw cat food recipes from multiple sources, none of which use a Vitamin D supplement. The IBD site is the first recipe that I've seen suggest it, and even then only under limited parameters. I understand why Vitamin D supplement can be useful for sick cats. Certain illness cause low levels of systemic Vitamin D.

Dr. Becker of Mercola is one pro-raw veterinarian who does not recommend supplementing Vitamin D without prior testing to see if the animal actually needs extra D. Vitamin D Levels in Cats with Life-Threatening Conditions

Vitamin D should not be suggested as a general-use supplement in a raw diet. I have no issue with recommending it for IBD cats who have tested low in Vitamin D.

 

[mschauer]

I'm sorry but you are completely mis-interpreting what you are reading.

From your link to Dr. Becker's post (my added bold and italics):

Commercially available cat foods often contain high levels of added vitamin D, and balanced, home-prepared diets typically contain the right amount of vitamin D for healthy cats. Offering a supplement to a kitty eating either of these diets is overkill and could result in vitamin D poisoning.

She is talking about people who give their cats a vit D supplement in addition to a food that already has sufficient vit D.

Dr. Becker has published a book on preparing home-made raw pets foods and she includes analyses of the foods to show that they meet the AAFCO recommendations including the recommendation for vit D.

Adding vitamin D to our home-made foods when done as per directions is perfectly safe.

BTW: The AAFCO recommendations are based on published research compiled and summarized by the National Research Council (NRC). The document published by the NRC is also used by the FEDIAF (the European equivalent of the AAFCO) to establish their recommendations.

 

[orange&white]

I believe that you are the one misinterpreting the statement you quoted. I do agree with you that she is talking about people who give their cats a vit D supplement in addition to a food that already has sufficient vit D. Her final point in the article is to have the pet tested before adding supplemental Vitamin D. That is hard to misinterpret.

Anyway, anyone interested can read the article and form their own conclusions. As Dorimon said above, "Every pet parent should do their own research and feel comfortable with what they are feeding. There are many different schools of thought when it comes to raw feeding Some choose not to supplement at all!"

I agreed with that statement the first time around.

 

[mschauer]

You are ignoring the salient sentence:

Commercially available cat foods often contain high levels of added vitamin D, and balanced, home-prepared diets typically contain the right amount of vitamin D for healthy cats.

What she she is saying that there is no need to add additional vit D to a food which has already been formulated to contain an adequate amount of vit D. What we are discussing in this thread is the formulation of the food such that it will contain that adequate amount of vit D. To supplement something merely means to add to it. She is saying there is no need to add to (supplement) a food that already has adequate nutrients. Again her own recipes call for adding vit D when needed to meet AAFCO recommendations.

Your posts have not merely said that "some people choose not to supplement". You made the statement that people are risking causing serious illness in their cats when they add vit D to their home-made foods at established safe levels. That is categorically false and irresponsible to say.

 

[valentine319]

I've been researching.

Fat Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A, D, E, & K in Cats Gives a pet pound lowest supplementation and what amount is too much.

Amount of D in salmon. How does Salmon Oil Compare with Cod Liver Oil? - Vital Choice Wild Seafood & Organics
My recipe per 5 lbs:

• 8 to 16 oz water, use 16 oz if your cats like it soupier, 8 oz if they like it firmer
• 4 raw egg yolks
• 4000 mg taurine
• 4000 mg wild salmon or wild caught small fish oil
• 800 IU Vitamin E (use dry form)
• 200 mg Vitamin B Complex
• Use half to none with whole ground carcass rabbit- 1 ½ tsp Lite Iodized Salt
• Optional- 4 tsp psyllium husk powder (optional, mostly recommended when your cats are starting out on raw)
  Read more at Easy Raw Diet Feeding for the Busy Person - Feline Nutrition
  

So the salmon oil has 456 IU d per 1,000 mg. If my cat has to do krill oil (I'm testing a regular fish oil this weekend) due to an allergic reaction conservatively 2,280 iu D for 5 lbs of whole ground carcass rabbit to the recipe would be fine. The Now dry D is 1,000 iu per pill so it would be 2 1/4 pills (2,250 IU D) . This will supplement the D but not close to the maximum dose. The now krill oil is 1000 mg (to match the recipe) so 4 of those.

This keeps me with the recipe I'm using. If it turns into 6 lbs after adding everything that leaves me with 375 IU D per pound. That doesn't consider the amount naturally in the 80/10/10 whole carcass ground rabbit blend not considering the amount in Egg yolks. This would keep kitty supplemented but no worries of over dose. I prefer a more conservative approach. I'm getting one of the freshest quality rabbit to naturally keep many nutrients that come in the ground rabbit food. Hare today grinds on Thursday and ships on Monday. I receive Wednesday and process on Thursday to Friday depending on how frozen. So it's ground, processed and mixed all in just at a week.

I appreciate the IBD resource. She doesn't have IBD so I'm going conservative at this point.

 

[orange&white]

You are ignoring the salient sentence:


What she she is saying that there is no need to add additional vit D to a food which has already been formulated to contain an adequate amount of vit D. What we are discussing in this thread is the formulation of the food such that it will contain that adequate amount of vit D. To supplement something merely means to add to it. She is saying there is no need to add to (supplement) a food that already has adequate nutrients. Again her own recipes call for adding vit D when needed to meet AAFCO recommendations.

Your posts have not merely said that "some people choose not to supplement". You made the statement that people are risking causing serious illness in their cats when they add vit D to their home-made foods at established safe levels. That is categorically false and irresponsible to say.

She is saying that processed foods have too much Vitamin D (heat degrades the Vitamin D in meat sources, so the pet feed industry adds manufactured supplements) and that homemade raw diets have “enough” Vitamin D without additional supplementation. What is pretty clear is that she recommends testing before supplementing.

One study finding sufficient serum levels of Vitamin D in individuals with “apparently” low intake of Vitamin D, found that actual intake of Vitamin D from meat sources may be broadly underestimated because the USDA’s Nutrient Database does not include 25(OH)D when reporting the vitamin D content of foods:

“…that taking into account the serum 25(OH)D content of beef, pork, chicken, turkey, and eggs can increase the estimated levels of vitamin D in the food from two to 18 times…” Source: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-HealthProfessional/

(The liver converts oral intake of Vitamin D3 into 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] and the kidneys convert 25(OH)D into 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D [1,25(OH)2D].)

Remember we are talking about a raw diet here. The Vitamin D and 25(OH)D has not been degraded out of the meat by heat and other processing.

It is not “categorically false” that adding a manufactured Vitamin D supplement to raw meat/bones/liver can lead to toxicity. It’s widely published fact. Being irresponsible is having a lot of knowledge interpreted from hours of research in your head and not sharing the information with others. In fact, I appreciate that you are sharing knowledge that you have interpreted from your own research. We don’t have to agree.

The experts on raw nutrition do not all agree. I would not expect us to all agree. Nutrition is an inexact science.

 

[mschauer]

It is not “categorically false” that adding a manufactured Vitamin D supplement to raw meat/bones/liver can lead to toxicity. .

That is NOT what I said.

And I am well aware that the USDA database is lacking vit D information for some items. I consider that when analysing a recipe.

 

[valentine319]

First of let me say everyone should do their own research on what recipe to use and nutrients. If you need to make a change then it's up to each to decide what is healthiest for kitty or pay for a nutrition consultation.

Since it looks like I'll be using molecularly distilled fish oil I'm choosing the bare minimum of D to add to 5 lbs at 1,250 IU D per 5 lbs since I'm using enriched egg yolks, high quality meat and whole carcass grind. The recipe I'm using will be from feline-nutrition.com

Options for omega 3's
Choosing an Omega-3 Oil for Your Pet | Little Big Cat

For those of you questioning fish oils are the other threads on molecular distillation of fish oil and krill oil for those who find their cat is having issues with fish oil.

I'm going with a more conservative idea of how I'm treating my cat. She doesn't have IBD so I'm not going with an IBD recipe.

So a few comments. The vitamin D in fish oil seems to be all over the map other than distillation that seems to remove the D from fish oil but not from krill. You can request the nutrient analysis from the companies you are considering. I've attached links for those who might want to read. Some show high D and some 50 minimum. Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin D
Vitamin D Levels & Fish Oil
Article | Trader Joe's
How does Salmon Oil Compare with Cod Liver Oil? - Vital Choice Wild Seafood & Organics
Amount of D in Krill Oil (contact your vendor to confirm exact amounts)
The Amount of Vitamin D in Krill Oil

Thank you orange&white for the info from rad cat. They do not supplement D. Only the pork contains salmon oil.
Cat Raw Food Diet | All Natural Cat Food | Premium Cat Food
Rad Cat Raw Cat Food | All Natural Cat Food | Premium Cat Food

Pay for a nutritional consultation if in doubt.

 

[mschauer]

Thank you orange&white for the info from rad cat. They do not supplement D. Only the pork contains salmon oil.
Pay for a nutritional consultation if in doubt.

Just an FYI, Rad Cat uses meat from certified free range or pastured raised animals. As such those meats will be higher in some nutrients such as vit D than meats from factory raised animals. That allows their food to meet AAFCO recommendations (as they state on their web site) for vit D without adding any over what is naturally in the meat. Meat from naturally raised animals will also be higher in omega 3 fatty acids making the addition of fish oil unnecessary in some cases.

 

[valentine319]

Just an FYI, Rad Cat uses meat from certified free range or pastured raised animals. As such those meats will be higher in some nutrients such as vit D than meats from factory raised animals. That allows their food to meet AAFCO recommendations (as they state on their web site) for vit D without adding any over what is naturally in the meat. Meat from naturally raised animals will also be higher in omega 3 fatty acids making the addition of fish oil unnecessary in some cases.

I'm using Hare-today whole ground carcass rabbits raised by the amish. They were ground on a Thursday, shipped Monday, arrived on Wednesday and processed and frozen Thursday. So I feel confident in rabbits quality.

Mschauer makes a great point. You must consider the quality and the freshness of your product.

 

[dorimon]

valentine319 I think it's awesome how much time and effort you've put into researching! Thanks for sharing everything you've found!

My only comment to you is that the recipe I linked is not intended just for IBD cats. There isn't really anything in it that is "for" IBD, and it is also quite similar to other recipes. I like it because it because it includes the analysis (done by the wonderful mschauer ) and you can see where the nutrient amounts fall within the acceptable ranges set by AAFCO/FEDIAF (which are a great guideline).