Second cat, please advise!

[kakers]

I'm definitely getting a much clearer sense of where your hesitation is coming from after your history with your other cats! You're just wanting to do what's best for them and trying to minimize your stress because in your experience stress can lead to some negative effects down the road. I would say that what happened with your previous cats isn't quite the norm. It's challenging to tell what cats will reach to each other in certain ways.

But, there's also good news- the vast majority of cats can (and yours almost definitely will) learn to at the very least cohabitate peacefully. To have realistic expectations with cat introductions that is our goal versus them being friends. Not only does it seem yours will be fine with the time they need to adjust to each other, but if you DO start to see signs of territory or resource guarding (which is what it sounds like was going on with your previous cats) you now know what to look for and there's almost always adjustments you can make to the environment to help things become peaceful again. Your cats aren't showing that they want to be at each other's throats in a knock down drag out only one cat cat remain kind of way so this isn't going to be a worst case scenario of two cats that won't ever get along.

That's not to say they will never get in fights. Even cats that are friendly with each other may get into the occasional minor tiff. You can almost 100% expect there to be at least some swatting once they are together face to face. It's what comes next that's what you'll want to focus on. You can even see in one of my pictures in my current intro thread my NC swatting one of my RCs upside the head. What happened next was initially RC backing off, but then he was too focused on wanting to check her empty food bowl for residual flavor and she was determined for him to stay out of her room so that's where I knew the distraction had to come in and close the door. You'll get better at learning their body language and at doing a little mind reading as you go and there will be mistakes and dustups but that's OK. Sometimes even what feels like a backside ends up being progress because the cats may want to avoid it happenening again as much as you do!

 

[Caspers Human]

You can even see in one of my pictures in my current intro thread my NC swatting one of my RCs upside the head.

Yep! Bopping is normal cat politics.

Cats can't talk so they can't say, "Hey, you're invading my space!" Instead, they have to bop each other.

Sometimes, it seems like cats act like two year old toddlers! Doesn't it?

 

[danteshuman]

Honestly with these 3 cats the only issue is when 1 of the boys gets bored and hunts their sister. Then she gets all growly and if they catch her she does a high pitch meow….. then they break apart. 30-60 minutes later they are completely happy together. When I see one hunting her, I break them apart for a half hour and play with hand boy. Or I pull out electronic toys and distract them all.

They are littermates. Now the boys play fights may look like a real fight but it is just play. I included pictures of them just hanging out together. (Yes they get a birthday party! ) So if they willing eat and sleep near each other, then you are golden!

 

[Caspers Human]

Yes they get a birthday party!

We don't know Casper's actual birthday but, since we got him at Christmas time, we call that his birthday.

Casper gets a Birthday-Chrismas present every year... He gets a bag of Temptations kitty treats and we let him tear into it and eat his fill. He also gets an entire package of catnip. We, basically, just dump out onto the floor and let him go to town with it.

Since we got Elliot at Easter time, we figure that'll be his Easter-Birthday time.
Elliot loves Churu treats so we'll probably give him a whole package of those and let him lick himself silly.

 

[Hellenww]

Also, what was that at 6:20? To me agqin it looks like a mini fight from Baby's side? am I seeing it all wrong again? Hopefully I am.. it's just her launching herself at him repeatedly, swatting hard her body language just looks like she's agitated...am I the only one that sees it this way?
I do see her calm down a bit later, but then again, she never bites slippers - she goes to do so at cca 7:28 (in my mind it's her frustration from not being qble to get to Zacky when she repeatedly tries to bite him, and then goes for the slipper instead?..).
Zacky staying there and just rolling on his back playfully, relaxed and gentle, makes me think he doesn't see her bites as threatening (but maybe that's because he's being 'protected' by the gate and doesn't realize it completely? )

It looks like a bit of frustration. She has this great new toy but can't get the darn packaging off. I agree, the slipper is part of the same frustration. She beat the slipper up a bit but then calmed down and went back to playing. I'm not seeing an aggressive cat just a frustrated one.

When they start playing in the same room I'd be surprised if she gets this type of worked up.

 

[Alldara]

Valerian They're still playing
What really helped me when we first introduced Magnus, was to watch and rewatch every day videos of other cats playing until it really sunk in what that looks like.

I'm trying to share with you now what my two bonded cats look like when playing. Yes there's fur sometimes (Cal's paws are good brushes), yes there's poofing sometimes and definitely lots of chomping, kicking, tackling, ear swivels and some moves straight out of Kobra Kai!

Now, normally they would also run and chase one another. It took me all day to catch just a wrestle session.

Cal And Mags play

More play

 

[Caspers Human]

Y'know, it's a signal that all is well.

If things weren't quiet enough around the house, the cats wouldn't romp. Would they?

 

[Valerian]

Honestly with these 3 cats the only issue is when 1 of the boys gets bored and hunts their sister. Then she gets all growly and if they catch her she does a high pitch meow….. then they break apart. 30-60 minutes later they are completely happy together. When I see one hunting her, I break them apart for a half hour and play with hand boy. Or I pull out electronic toys and distract them all.

They are littermates. Now the boys play fights may look like a real fight but it is just play. I included pictures of them just hanging out together. (Yes they get a birthday party! ) So if they willing eat and sleep near each other, then you are golden!

They are adorable!

 

[Valerian]

When they start playing in the same room I'd be surprised if she gets this type of worked up.

I sure hope so, we'll see soon enough.

I've gathered up the courage with a lot of reassurance from everyone that contributed to this thread convinced me that things aren't as bad as I thought they were (thinking Baby being very tense when with Zacky) and am going to let them meet without the gate at the end of the week when my sister comes to visit so she can help me (mostly for emotional support xD hehe).

 

[Valerian]

..A few minutes later my sister calls me to have a session with the cats...
And now I'm confused again

I have another video (omg I'm so grateful for videos)...

Their meetings always seem to go the same way.. calm and gentle at first and then become rougher (always starting from Baby).

It seems like Baby gets a bit pissed around 1:26 after Zack smacks her on her muzzle while she was sniffing him? (I'm not sure you can hear it on the video but she starts breathing through her nose really loudly, while swooshing her tail and ears back, which is another raised flag for me - is this a flag only for me???)..
After cca 2:00 she gets even angrier amd even gives me a little bite on the leg when passing me by (it was a really gentle snap, but makes me think she was redirecting it on me? P.s. sorry for the language there, but I subconsciously call her a little b**** whenever she misbehaves xD but it's not meant offensively)

I'm sorry I'm being so uncertain, and after reading K kakers And other's posts, I do see that my case can't be so bad..but no mayter how many videos of cats playing I watch (thank you so much for sharing A Alldara ), I can't get past the fact that my sessions look so much rougher and tense from Baby's side..

Is this still all play?? (I don't mean to ask ot it's aggression, but frustration/agitation - like Baby gets fed up with Zack after a few minutes)

I've had cats all my life and can almost all of the time predict what their next move will be and understand them, even if they're not my cats, but when it comes to cat interaction with other cats I'm totally clueless...
I understand cat language as far as it's 1 cat, as this is how I've lived with cats all my life. The way they play woth each other os a type of play I never encountered during my time of owning cats. Yhe most rough play I've witnessed as a single cat owner was a cat giving bunny kicks to a toy xD so please try to understand, I really am posting all this videos because I'm genuinely concerned and unsure of how to progress.

And a huge thank you again to everyone who's been patiently walking me through this process!!

 

[Caspers Human]

Cats play rough, sometimes. Especially young ones. When they don't know each other very well, like your cats, it can be even more.

Cats need to learn each other's boundaries and limits. The only way for them to learn is to be together and wrestle.

It might look harsh from a human perspective but, to use a figure of speech, that's the way cats roll.

If one cat pins the other down; if one cat starts crying and the other won't let up; if they bite hard enough to draw blood or if one cat won't stop chasing the other, THAT's the time to separate them.

If the cats hiss, growl, swat, wrestle and even meow or cry a little, that's "legal."

For instance, if you see one cat lying down, minding its own business when the other comes over to wrestle when the other doesn't want to play, it's a "legal move" for the calm cat to fight off the attacking cat. That's how one cat says, "Hey! I'm trying to take a nap! Leave me alone!"

Our cat, Casper (the old cat) did that to Elliot. (the new cat)

Casper and I were playing with the feather toy, minding our own business when Elliot came and tried to take over the toy. Casper yowled at him and gave him a bop on the head! Elliot ran off and Casper chased him. Basically, Casper was saying to Elliot, "Hey! Back off!"

Another time, Casper was snuggling with his Girl-Human when Elliot tried to come in for some of Girl-Human's attention. Casper didn't like it. Again, he yowled and attacked Elliot. Casper's Girl-Human got caught in the fray and ended up with a scratch. It wasn't anybody's fault, really. It's just the way Casper says, "Leave me alone!"

Cats can't talk. They can't say "Leave me alone!" Fighting is the only way they have to communicate when they are upset.

They will meow, hiss, growl, swat as a warning but, if the other cat doesn't get the message, they will escalate to wrestling. One cat will finally realize that the other means business and run away. As long as it stays at that level, the cats will be okay.

Remember: Cats have a very different idea of what "fighting" or "hurting" means.

Humans might have domesticated the common cat but they still retain much of their wild nature. Cats are built to fight. That's why God gave them claws and teeth. They have thick fur to help ward off claws. They have strong muscles so they can withstand bites and scratches.

I think it's time for you to let your cats out so that they can be together, maybe for an hour at a time. Let them do (almost) anything they want as long as they don't break "House Rules."

Chasing, attacking and wrestling are "legal."

If one cat pins another and won't stop..
If one cat cries out and the other won't leave him alone...
I one cat chases the other and won't stop...
These are "Illegal" moves.

As long as the cats stay "legal" let them be.
If they are "illegal," say, "Play nice!"
If they don't stop, clap your hands, loudly, and say it louder, "Play NICE!!!"
If you have to shout at them a third time, separate them, put them into their rooms and close the doors.

Let them out for an hour or two at a time. If they "play nice" they can stay out longer. If they don't play nice, put them in.
The longer they play nice, the longer they get to stay out.

When they can play nice, all day long, you'll only have to put them in when you go to bed or leave the house.

If they can play nice all night long, even when you are in bed, they can stay out until you leave the house.

When they get to this point, try testing them by leaving for an hour or so. Go do some shopping or something.
When you can leave for an hour and come home to a quiet house, you know that it's okay for you to go away for a longer time.
Eventually, your cats will "graduate" and they can be together all the time.

Start out small and work toward bigger things... "Baby steps."

 

[Alldara]

Valerian The cats are VERY happy to see one another. Do you see the way they broth trot over with tails up?

It's still all play. If it was too much for Zaky, he would walk away like he did in the other video for a few moments. Over the course of the videos, I see Baby managing her emotions well. She fights the slipper the other day when she needs to get that energy out (we have a few kickers for that). She walks off to get the treat you toss in the other video, turning her back with great trust!

They're a going to be times when they play where it gets too much for them. The other one is going to respond with a shout or a smack. That's okay. Like all of us with mutlicat households, just keep the claws trimmed

For their first non-gate, of recommend really playing and running them around as much as possible, then having them eat together. Have some toys on hand for attempting to distract them though, if it's anything like Calcifer and Magnus's first meeting they won't care about the toys.

Magnus was about rough with Calcifer at first and we had to separate them to stop them playing. Not because anything bad happened, they just really wanted to play, but didn't stop even once both were panting.

Keep watching the videos daily. When you're stressed, it can take some time to set in. Baby's body language is really no different from Magnus's and Magnus and Calcifer have been together for 1.5 years.

Take some time to center yourself and begin looking for the positives. Even if you must make a physical list to remind yourself. Maybe even practice watching each of your videos and look for the positive body languages.

- Swivel ears: playtime!
- Tail: straight to body-alert but curious; straight up like a ! - happy, alert; up like a ? - happy and comfortable
- swishing: excitement, can happen with positive excitement such as play, and negative excitement such as irritation. Only subtle differences between the two
- rolling: trust, sometimes play and confidence
- "kitten eyes": when the pupils get large because of interest, play or hunting

 

[Valerian]

The cats are VERY happy to see one another. Do you see the way they broth trot over with tails up?

Yes, of course I saw that you could hear in my voice that I was happy to see that, but did you see the whole video?..
A few minutes later Baby starts swishing her tail in irrigation and lashing at the gate This is the part that doesn't sink in with me..how can this be play? If a cat was puffing air out her nose loudly while leaning her body back, tail swishing like that and ears back, I would never consider it play (did you see this part? At around 2:00 is caught best on camera I think. She looks calm until Zack claws her a bit on the nose at cca 1:26, after that, her attitude changes..)
I haven't trimmed their claws yet.

Also, you reminded me about sth I wanted to mention as well.
I tried feeding them a few times at the gate - They both ate their food while checking eqch other out every so often (Baby more so). And as soon as Zack finished eating and walked away so he wasn't in her visual field anymore, she stopped eating and started walking towards the gate in a stalking motion.
So I'm not sure if bringing food into their first meeting is a good idea? She might be a bit possessive of her food.

She also has this weird tick when she hisses at a mouse toy if that toy somehow gets close to another toy mouse...I've never seen this before her

Thank you, I will try to focus on the positives (like the beginning of the meeting/video). But could you please comment on her body language after 1:26? Did you watch the whole video?

I'm really curious how everyone interprets her body language after 1:26 in the last video. This can't be usual play between 2 cats, can it? I mean, I'm certain she isn't happy at that point and is pissed (sorry for the lack of a more appropriate adjective?).... Even Zack gets worked up a bit after that - even so he still looks muuch more calm and playful, not agitated like Baby...

 

[Alldara]

Valerian Yes I saw the whole video (reminder I can't hear the video), as long as she's not full on yowling yes that's still play.

If they did have access to one another instead of her Kobra Kai moves at the gate she would be pouncing him! She's just very excited, and she might have been a bit startled for a moment. It doesn't look any different from Magnus just before he pounced Calcifer last night.

See how this cat poofs up just playing with a toy?: Bottle brush tail Baby, and Magnus too last night just have a slight floofiness for a few minutes.


It's normal that it looks agressive to you. But I promise we are NOT trying to mislead you, "It’s common for kittens and young cats to engage in rough, active play because feline play can consist of mock aggression. Many cats retain this kitten-like behavior well into adulthood. Cats stalk, chase, pounce, swat, kick, scratch and bite each other—all in good fun. However, people often misinterpret this kind of behavior as aggression...."
Rough play in a kitten or adult cat - HSHV

Playfighting will be an important part of their relationship. They'll likely do it a few times a day.
Roughhousing or Roughed Up: How to Tell If Cats Are Playing or Fighting? | Cat Checkup

**Note, I will recommend that you trim their claws before their first face to face. Accidents can happen like small scratches as you mentioned.

re: Food for the in person intro
Feed them separately then before the intro. Whichever way works best for your house it fine, just make sure they are played with and fed. Reduce pent up energy.

 

[kakers]

As others have already said (but I know the more agreement the more reassuring it is!) It's not out of the ordinary for one to be more into the playing than the other after a bit. When they are together you may see it get a bit rough and too rough for the liking of one of the kitties but what we're looking to happen isn't necessarily that never happening it's the what happens next. When the one cat shreiks their version of the "too much!" Does the other pause? Back off? Let the overwhelmed kitty run away without chasing them? That's all good!

Cats when it comes to play can be a good lesson in consent. An enthusiastic "yes" to playtime can quickly turn to a "no" for whatever reason. Often the other cat accepts that no. And it doesn't mean the "yes" was any less enthusiastic at first! They were having fun until they weren't and then they voiced it's not fun anymore. As long as the other cat responds appropriately it's all good!

As far as at 1:26 of the last video it looks like very playful body language to me! The whole video looks great. Even if one of them is getting frustrated at any point that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. As an analogy I like to play video games but sometimes get frustrated at parts. It doesn't mean I no longer want to play or am not enjoying the game! I really wouldn't worry too much about some frustration if that's even what it is.

 

[Alldara]

Valerian I wanted to let you know that I showed the video to my wife as well, with no context and asked what was happening in the video. Without reading anything and just watching the video and listening to the audio, my wife said, "Why are you showing me this random video of cats playing?" I asked what are emotions of the cat are and the reply was, "That one really wants to play with the other one."

 

[Hellenww]

She looks calm until Zack claws her a bit on the nose at cca 1:26, after that, her attitude changes..)

Yes, he surprised her with the claw and she came back more intense. If she really wanted to hurt him, she'd be hissing and yowling. Zack stayed calm and she relaxed and went back to calmer play. This type of accidental claw out or biting a little too hard will happen in play and in most cases they will give a warning like she did.

 

[Alldara]

Yes, he surprised her with the claw and she came back more intense. If she really wanted to hurt him, she'd be hissing and yowling. Zack stayed calm and she relaxed and went back to calmer play. This type of accidental claw out or biting a little too hard will happen in play and in most cases they will give a warning like she did.

Perfectly stated.

 

[Valerian]

Cats play rough, sometimes. Especially young ones. When they don't know each other very well, like your cats, it can be even more.

Cats need to learn each other's boundaries and limits. The only way for them to learn is to be together and wrestle.

It might look harsh from a human perspective but, to use a figure of speech, that's the way cats roll.

If one cat pins the other down; if one cat starts crying and the other won't let up; if they bite hard enough to draw blood or if one cat won't stop chasing the other, THAT's the time to separate them.

If the cats hiss, growl, swat, wrestle and even meow or cry a little, that's "legal."

For instance, if you see one cat lying down, minding its own business when the other comes over to wrestle when the other doesn't want to play, it's a "legal move" for the calm cat to fight off the attacking cat. That's how one cat says, "Hey! I'm trying to take a nap! Leave me alone!"

Our cat, Casper (the old cat) did that to Elliot. (the new cat)

Casper and I were playing with the feather toy, minding our own business when Elliot came and tried to take over the toy. Casper yowled at him and gave him a bop on the head! Elliot ran off and Casper chased him. Basically, Casper was saying to Elliot, "Hey! Back off!"

Another time, Casper was snuggling with his Girl-Human when Elliot tried to come in for some of Girl-Human's attention. Casper didn't like it. Again, he yowled and attacked Elliot. Casper's Girl-Human got caught in the fray and ended up with a scratch. It wasn't anybody's fault, really. It's just the way Casper says, "Leave me alone!"

Cats can't talk. They can't say "Leave me alone!" Fighting is the only way they have to communicate when they are upset.

They will meow, hiss, growl, swat as a warning but, if the other cat doesn't get the message, they will escalate to wrestling. One cat will finally realize that the other means business and run away. As long as it stays at that level, the cats will be okay.

Remember: Cats have a very different idea of what "fighting" or "hurting" means.

Humans might have domesticated the common cat but they still retain much of their wild nature. Cats are built to fight. That's why God gave them claws and teeth. They have thick fur to help ward off claws. They have strong muscles so they can withstand bites and scratches.

I think it's time for you to let your cats out so that they can be together, maybe for an hour at a time. Let them do (almost) anything they want as long as they don't break "House Rules."

Chasing, attacking and wrestling are "legal."

If one cat pins another and won't stop..
If one cat cries out and the other won't leave him alone...
I one cat chases the other and won't stop...
These are "Illegal" moves.

As long as the cats stay "legal" let them be.
If they are "illegal," say, "Play nice!"
If they don't stop, clap your hands, loudly, and say it louder, "Play NICE!!!"
If you have to shout at them a third time, separate them, put them into their rooms and close the doors.

Let them out for an hour or two at a time. If they "play nice" they can stay out longer. If they don't play nice, put them in.
The longer they play nice, the longer they get to stay out.

When they can play nice, all day long, you'll only have to put them in when you go to bed or leave the house.

If they can play nice all night long, even when you are in bed, they can stay out until you leave the house.

When they get to this point, try testing them by leaving for an hour or so. Go do some shopping or something.
When you can leave for an hour and come home to a quiet house, you know that it's okay for you to go away for a longer time.
Eventually, your cats will "graduate" and they can be together all the time.

Start out small and work toward bigger things... "Baby steps."

I hope I learn to be a good referee xD
Because I'm still figuring out the rules of the game

 

[Valerian]

But I promise we are NOT trying to mislead you,

Oh, I never thought THAT! I probably thought their body language didn't show properly on my videos because none of you ever saw what I did (agitation etc) so I kept posting and asking...
I guess I really needed a few more reassuring comments on the videos, as all of them helped me tremendously for it to finally start sinking in that this IS play!

As an analogy I like to play video games but sometimes get frustrated at parts. It doesn't mean I no longer want to play or am not enjoying the game! I really wouldn't worry too much about some frustration if that's even what it is.

This comment instantly made sense to me!
I see it now ) thank you for finding a probably best analogy there ever was for explaining their play!

Yes, he surprised her with the claw and she came back more intense. If she really wanted to hurt him, she'd be hissing and yowling. Zack stayed calm and she relaxed and went back to calmer play. This type of accidental claw out or biting a little too hard will happen in play and in most cases they will give a warning like she did.

Thank you for commenting on the thing I was stressing I was worried about, the biting, the more intense feedbacks, etc. I really needed to hear an explanation for that!

I think I can say it's starting to finally sink into my brain and I'm starting to acceept this as actually being, maybe a bit rougher, play

Today after coming home from work, we let them greet each other at the gate.
Even Zacky now isn't as shy and jumps on the gate (he used to hide behind the door everytime he would see her before - after she growled at him at the starting sessions).
And I wasn't worried (maybe for a second or two, but I kept rewinding all your comments in my mind and observed them and finally saw, there were times they'd het really excited and jump like crazy, but then they both calmed down and layed near the gate for a few minutes

I'm so grateful to everyone that helped me realize this! Thank you!

I'm going to take A Alldara 's advice and trim their claws before I let them together (I only clip away the tips - 2 mm so they aren't as sharp)
I never clip their hind claws though - but I think you meant only front paws? Since they swat with front paws....
This raises a question.....what should I do if one of them starts bunny kicking the other? I hope if it happens it's going to be obviously gentle, or else I might freak out again..

How should I go about letting them meet without a gate?
Should they be playing at the gate and we try to distract either of them with a toy while I open up the gate and let them do whatever they'll do?
I hope Baby doesn't freak too mich when she sees him going "into her territory" (probably in her mind everything except basecamp)
I think both of them should definitely be aware that the gate was taken away and the other cat has free access to roam around. Otherwise I can only imagine what the shock of not being prepared/being ambushed lol, might set off..

I'll have to wait untill Friday so that I have some support and help from my sister
I kind of can't wait.. Zack's been in the basecamp since 21.4.
Is it bad that I don't do site swaps as frequently anymore? Would it have been better if O would, so there'd be more of Zacky's scent over the furniture in the rest of the apartment?
Thw last time I did the swap (a few days ago) Baby wasnt reqctive anymore, she just smelled stuff in the basecamp but didn't puff up or hiss or anything anymore