Second cat, please advise!

[kakers]

Sometimes it's a challenge figuring out how much of what we're seeing is new cat adjusting to a new space vs cats reacting to each other vs just learning a new cats personality. Sounds like you're doing a good job figuring out what each cat needs and they seem to be adjusting nicely so far!

 

[Valerian]

Unfortunate update , Day 8:

We did the swap first. NC played a lot in the rest of the apartment while RC was playing in the basecamp. He also peed in her litterbox again.
When we did the exchange back RC puffed up when she turned the corner and saw a bag (probably because of the scent).

Then we did the double mesh door.
NC kept climbing the mesh door.
Then RC started doing the same.
My sister got impatient because she had to keep taking NC of the mesh door when he climbed to the top.
So..I opened my sode of the mesh door...big mistake I think.
NC was right at the mesh door, RC came to him, started sniffing and hissing a lot. He just kept watching back, eyes getting bigger.
RC kept hissing and started raising her paw to strike.
He didn't look happy at all either but he didn't puff up or hiss back.
We ended the session by closing the door...
Please experienced people help, did I mess it all up?
I'm not sure how to do the visual intros with mesh doors since NC isn't interested in the toy anymore but just wants to climb the door and get out.... I'm so shaken up by this and feel so defeated

 

[KittenMittons]

I'm in the middle of a somewhat tense introduction also! I've had to learn to cut myself and the kittes some slack. If there's a stumble, don't sweat it so much! Everyone is trying their best and mistakes/misunderstandings happen. I've had to take more than a few steps back and go back to where everyone last felt comfortable.

My NC is also beginning to want to spend more time at the barrier seeing what's going on. Toys and pets only hold his attention for so long. I've started having a high value treat, (mine are the lickable treats in the tubes) that will either get NC or RC away from the barrier so no one gets triggered, or I have been successful with having NC and RC share the treat (some on my finger and the other one eats out of the tube) while on their sides of the barrier. If it comes to the treat distraction I typically end the session on that note, since it's usually a happy note!

 

[Alldara]

Valerian very normal. Everything is fine just provide comfort and keep continuing. There will be bumps and stumbles.

They learned that if they get too stressed, you'll help them without anyone getting hurt.

Most people don't do a double-gate, so it's quite fine to continue with one gate.

You'll have better results if you can get in, play some of NC's energy down a bit first. Then start with food. Put RC's food first in the doorway where her gate was and then put NC's good by the door. You sit on NC's side with your legs straight out. Your body is an added safety barrier for the cats that provides comfort. Keep some toys on hand for distraction after eating.
Nobel always really benefited from this method from what we called his "emotional support human". Sometimes cats need an ESH.
When we graduated to in-person meetings I used treats to desensitize Nobel (look at the kitten, look at me, get a treat) and would place my body in between when Nobel got overwhelmed, both to block Magnus or Calcifer from going closer and to block Nobel and comfort him before he could 'charge'. Mind you he was old and his mobility lower so it made my job easier.

 

[Valerian]

Valerian very normal. Everything is fine just provide comfort and keep continuing. There will be bumps and stumbles.

They learned that if they get too stressed, you'll help them without anyone getting hurt.

Most people don't do a double-gate, so it's quite fine to continue with one gate.

You'll have better results if you can get in, play some of NC's energy down a bit first. Then start with food. Put RC's food first in the doorway where her gate was and then put NC's good by the door. You sit on NC's side with your legs straight out. Your body is an added safety barrier for the cats that provides comfort. Keep some toys on hand for distraction after eating.
Nobel always really benefited from this method from what we called his "emotional support human". Sometimes cats need an ESH.
When we graduated to in-person meetings I used treats to desensitize Nobel (look at the kitten, look at me, get a treat) and would place my body in between when Nobel got overwhelmed, both to block Magnus or Calcifer from going closer and to block Nobel and comfort him before he could 'charge'. Mind you he was old and his mobility lower so it made my job easier.

NC has been playing a lot before we did the visuals. That's why, I thought, he couldn't be as distracted and started climbing the door instead.

Thanks for the tip! How did you decide that it was NC that needed ESH and not the RC?

I'm including a video of the "incident" (though upon watching the playback I think it wasn't as bad as it looked in the real time..).
I took out thebsound but you can see when Baby hisses (RC). I also put some dialog boxes of the hisses, but there were morebthan that - you can see by her tiny muzzle getting all wrinkly x)..
I'm nit sure how come NC didn't back away during all this time she was hissing? He didn't hiss or make sounds back at her.
They were sniffing under the door - I installed the door on Zacky's side a bit higher from the ground, a few cm so they could plat footsies under the door ....x)..hopefully we get there sometime xD

I don't remember what happened when they got scared and Baby turned around and went to me with her tail up (me or my sister probably moved suddenly). But then straigth after thqt she went back to hiss at Zacky some more....

Anyoe understand what was happening?

Oh, here's the video:

Edit:
This is Baby (resident cat for 2 months (10 m old), below:


And this (below) is Zack, our new cat for 7 days (8 m old):

 

[Alldara]

Nobel was our resident cat so he usually had the ESH
But at times, I would sit with NC on his side instead. Basically whoever is showing the most signs of aggression (poofing and hissing) as that's who is the most nervous and needs to feel like they have extra 'protection'.
Calcifer really needed me on his side at first because he was not bonded to anyone yet and felt very scared. When I came to his side he was able to play.

Since we only used a gate, I had to "gate guard" anyways. Gate scaling, or in your case screen scaling is really normal.

 

[Alldara]

Oh PS. Are you playing some music for them during introductions? It stops them from being jumpy for every little sound to some degree.

I recommend any cat calming music with purring.

 

[Valerian]

Oh PS. Are you playing some music for them during introductions? It stops them from being jumpy for every little sound to some degree.

I recommend any cat calming music with purring.

Thqnk you, I'll try on the next attempt: )

 

[Valerian]

Calcifer really needed me on his side at first because he was not bonded to anyone yet and felt very scared. When I came to his side he was able to play.

Aww, poor sweety
The extended legs as an emotional barrier seems like such a good idea! I'll definitely try. And judging by the video / our last session, I'll have to do it on RC's side as she was hissing constantly at NC

 

[kakers]

I remember the introduction we did a couple years ago and how nerve wracking any seemingly negative interaction was! I was constantly stressed we were messing up. We're currently introducing another cat and I'm so much more relaxed about it this time after learning what is a red flag or what is expected. You learn to tell the difference between nervous or cautious (just fine) versus full on fight-flight-freeze (thus is when you separate.)

The interaction with the two of them at the gate was perfectly OK! I know it seems a bit scary when one is hissing or growling but we need to take off our human vision and look through the lense of a cat. Cats hiss and growl to communicate- it is often a sign of fear or nervousness not aggression and just asking for some space. Consider hissing and growling and even a light swat as having a discussion or negotiation and setting boundaries. It is just something that IS going to happen, just like when we move in with a new roommate we will often start by setting some boundaries and expecations. What happens next is the critical part. Nobody was catching hands (well, paws) and nobody escalated. One was hissing, the other was calm which is great for the more nervous one to learn "oh OK I'm nervous but you're calm so I guess we're ok." Of course it will take some time to get there, some need more time than others. But nope you didn't mess up at all! That was actually a good interaction for progress. Our NC was hanging out with me and one of the RCs last night just a constant low growl and as the RC continued to just ignore her NC just suddenly flopped down on her side as relaxed as can be lol.

So yeah of course be alert when there's hissing or growling just in case but you want to be a calming presence, cats pick up on our energy so we want to radiate "new friend! This is safe and positive!" The emotional support human is a good idea with the caveat to know your cat and be alert- it seems highly unlikely with what we've seen in your videos with these particular cats- if a cat does get into fight flight or freeze mode it can turn into redirected aggression. They're on high alert and may strike out first ask questions later. This can happen with even the sweetest cat. Emotional support human is for a nervous cat, a cat that's in fight flight or freeze needs space from everyone for their nervous system to come down.

 

[Valerian]

We had another visual through the mesh door of basecamp.

RC hissed a lot and growled.
NC was ok while he was playing with a feather. In between he wanted to get to the door next to RC, but since she didn't look ready we didn't really allow him.
After a while RC started to play, chasing the feather around the backpack. And was feeling a bit more relaxed.
But NC kept going for the mesh door. Not sure why, but once he charged to the mesh door (maybe because we kept holding him back and when he saw the oportunity he launged to the door....or he lunged to the RC..im not sure :/)

Should I allow them to sniff each other through the mesh door even though there is hissing and growling? Or do I continue to exhaust the poor NC? We were playing with him until he started panting.... RC couldn't be distracted as easily, at least in beginning.

What do I do next? Should I just let them be without interfering? Or should I continue distracting both of them so there is less hissing and growling?

 

[KittenMittons]

From what you described, I would say that things are going fine! You had RC and NC playing on either side of the barrier not really focusing on the other. It seems that NC maybe began to get a little restless that they couldn't get to RC, so you could try to distract NC with a high value treat or when you begin to see NC beginning to get restless, cut the session time down.

In the beginning stages of the visual introductions, I've aimed for 5 minute sessions, a couple times a day. First visual they might not make it to 2 min The hope is that you can eventually have the cats end the sessions by going off and laying down for a bath or a nap.

What do I do next? Should I just let them be without interfering? Or should I continue distracting both of them so there is less hissing and growling?

It's difficult to let go of sometimes, but they will hiss and growl at one another. I have had the same struggle as well! I would suggest to take a look at their body language as they're hissing and whatnot. Are the pupils dilated? Are their bodies rigid and stiff while staring at the other? Are the ears pinned back and body low to the ground? If you're not seeing signs of real aggression, I would let them hiss and growl a bit. If it makes you more comfortable you could set a threshold that you're comfortable with and don't let the hissing and growling escalate past that! If you feel that they are nearing that threshold, I would use a sight blocker (I use a large 3x3 piece of cardboard) to get them away from the barrier.

Also, keep in mind that the kitties can pick up on your energy during these sessions. If you're feeling anxious or frustrated the whole time, it'll come across to them and it has the potential to agitate them too! I find that telling the cats about the other's positive traits helps me stay cool! During visual sessions, I'll tell NC about whichever RC is closest to the barrier. For example, RC Freya walks by, I'll tell NC Idris that "That's Freya, she's very sweet and she doesn't steal food. And in fact, she'll watch you as you eat her food! How nice is that! Sharing is caring is her motto!" It's terribly silly, but if it helps anyone in the group stay cool, calm and collected; I'm happy to do it!

 

[kakers]

Personally I would let them sniff each other. While the screen is between them it's the safest time for them to start negotiating boundaries. I even let mine swat at each other a bit as long as they aren't giving me signs they've flipped the switch into fight flight or freeze. Also if they're BOTH willing to approach each other that's a good sign even if there's some hissing or growling!

Two of my cats have lived together for over a decade and have generally peacefully coexisted but even so one of them will sniff-sniff-hiss or sniff-sniff-swat (and I mean nose to nose sniffing!) Occasionally it's even sniff-lick-swat. Some cats are sassy or give mixed signals lol

And just now my NC just jumped off the couch next to one of the RCs and just gave a glance and a quick hiss at RC and kept on walking.

So yeah let them sniff and hiss and just keep a close eye for possible escalation. KittenMittons had a good suggestion with the cardboard go in between them to quickly block their sight quickly in case things escalate. It's a very handy thing to have just in case as well once you get to the point of removing that screen!

 

[Caspers Human]

Hey, Valerian ! Your cat, Baby, looks just like our new cat, Elliot!



At three weeks, going on four, since we adopted Elliot, he and our original cat, Casper (my avatar photo) are getting along well.

Elliot sometimes acts like a little upstart and horns in on Casper's "snuggle time" with his main human. Casper, understandably, gets upset and gives Elliot a little smack down but our House Rules don't forbid that because Elliot is the one who crossed the line.

Just hang in there! I'm sure your cats will learn to get along, just fine.

There will be some hissing and swatting. It's all in the name of "Cat Politics."

 

[Alldara]

It's normal for them to be reactive during a new stage.
At each new stage, you continue to distract them until they show signs of being relaxed without you.

I'd really recommend lots of vocal encouragement, treats for behaviour you want to reward and continuing with lots of praise.

You don't want to let hissing and growling go on, you want them to learnt that if they are overwhelmed they can and should walk away. And the other cat should respect that. This helps prevent things like deffered agression and such later on. (Can still happen)

 

[Valerian]

But at times, I would sit with NC on his side instead. Basically whoever is showing the most signs of aggression (poofing and hissing) as that's who is the most nervous and needs to feel like they have extra 'protection'.

We'vetried this on both sides (my sister with NC and me woth RC), but the RC just keeps going straight for the gate, goes over my legs to the mesh door ..
I did manage to distract and lead her away from the gate with freeze dried treats (she loves them), but sometimes I got the feeling she got even hissier (maybe because NC was close by while she was having the treat).
I think I'll continue doing this anyway because it might have still helped
She (rc) was growling and hissing a lot though, especially if NC was watching her. At times, she just sat there with kindof relaxed posture and watched him chase the feather (he was cca 1,5 m away).

In the beginning stages of the visual introductions, I've aimed for 5 minute sessions, a couple times a day. First visual they might not make it to 2 min The hope is that you can eventually have the cats end the sessions by going off and laying down for a bath or a nap.

My intros are fairly longer because my RC needs time to relax a bit. Usually 10-15 min until she starts not paying so much qttention to NC and begins to play with the mouse I throw her or chases the feather.
We got to the point yesterday evening when she would play around my backpack that I use to hide the feather around so she hunts it, and she seemed totally relaxed, even lying down chasing the feather at times.
But usually soon as she saw NC at the mesh door she would hiss and go to the door. We usually pick up NC and back him away from the gate a bit after a few sec of this hissing and growling (from rc) and try to distract him with a feather.

Oh, the main thing I wanted to say was that RC walked away and climbed onto the cat tower in the other room and layed there while the mesh door was still open.
But then my NC stafted looking at her with quite big eyes(no other signs though) and she reacted by running down the tree and to the mesh door after about 30s or so. But there were more times during the last intro that she walked away.

NC also didn't try to climb to the door as much and seemed a bit more relaxed too.

It's difficult to let go of sometimes, but they will hiss and growl at one another. I have had the same struggle as well! I would suggest to take a look at their body language as they're hissing and whatnot. Are the pupils dilated? Are their bodies rigid and stiff while staring at the other? Are the ears pinned back and body low to the ground? If you're not seeing signs of real aggression, I would let them hiss and growl a bit. If it makes you more comfortable you could set a threshold that you're comfortable with and don't let the hissing and growling escalate past that! If you feel that they are nearing that threshold, I would use a sight blocker (I use a large 3x3 piece of cardboard) to get them away from the barrier.

Oh, and about the body posture.
RC is usually puffy (at firts glance always) and hisses and growles, pupils dialated but ears are neutral, not back or down (knock, knock,..for the future intros...)
NC only has dialated pupils at times, otherwise no hissing, growling, puffines or flattened ears.

Brilliant advice about the cardboard! Thank you! This would definitely help as she always relaxes a bit qfter she can't see him anymore!

Also, keep in mind that the kitties can pick up on your energy during these sessions. If you're feeling anxious or frustrated the whole time, it'll come across to them and it has the potential to agitate them too! I find that telling the cats about the other's positive traits helps me stay cool! During visual sessions, I'll tell NC about whichever RC is closest to the barrier. For example, RC Freya walks by, I'll tell NC Idris that "That's Freya, she's very sweet and she doesn't steal food. And in fact, she'll watch you as you eat her food! How nice is that! Sharing is caring is her motto!" It's terribly silly, but if it helps anyone in the group stay cool, calm and collected; I'm happy to do it!

Aaaaw, what a cute story
I also always talk to them in a calming way, pet RC when she turns her back to gate and walks towards me or to thw feather (or in general seems more relaxed). I also always tell her this is her brother and he doesn't want to hurt her and look how playful and nice he is etc hehe, I huess we're all kind off goofy in this way on this forum

Also if they're BOTH willing to approach each other that's a good sign even if there's some hissing or growling!

Yes, they both approach each other, but RC hisses and growls a lot.... I don't want there to come to an argument between them through the mesh even... Is this inevitable and I mist allow it to happen? Or should I keep distracting them?

So yeah let them sniff and hiss and just keep a close eye for possible escalation. KittenMittons had a good suggestion with the cardboard go in between them to quickly block their sight quickly in case things escalate. It's a very handy thing to have just in case as well once you get to the point of removing that screen!

I guess I just got my answer to the previous quote xD
It's time for me to put down the coffee and go look for a cardboard layer xD


Edit to add:

You don't want to let hissing and growling go on, you want them to learnt that if they are overwhelmed they can and should walk away. And the other cat should respect that. This helps prevent things like deffered agression and such later on. (Can still happen)

Well now I'm a bit conflicted, but as a softie I am, I think I'll maybe let them get near each other again to sniff a bit, but keep the cardboard ready..
I'm a bit scared one of them could swat the other on the face, because I left a small gap (cca 3 to 4 cm) between mesh door and floor. That's why I tend to get more nervous when they approach each other - they already sniffed each other beneath the door through that gap

 

[Valerian]

Hey, Valerian ! Your cat, Baby, looks just like our new cat, Elliot!



At three weeks, going on four, since we adopted Elliot, he and our original cat, Casper (my avatar photo) are getting along well.

Elliot sometimes acts like a little upstart and horns in on Casper's "snuggle time" with his main human. Casper, understandably, gets upset and gives Elliot a little smack down but our House Rules don't forbid that because Elliot is the one who crossed the line.

Just hang in there! I'm sure your cats will learn to get along, just fine.

There will be some hissing and swatting. It's all in the name of "Cat Politics."

Aaaawwww what a beautiful big boy Elliot is! Casper is also a sweetheart

I'm so happy to hear your intros progressed nicely so quickly

I guess my apartment being small (45 m² or so) has a big play in how things will progress once/if(hopefully) they progress to the point of them both roaming around. I do have a huge cat tower but am limited in adding shelves to the walls because I live in a rental :/....

I understand your house rules and I'm also on board for this instance x)

Wishing you the best luck ahead. I'm sure they will become friends since they progressed so quickly

 

[Valerian]

Update, Day....just a sec..Day 10 xD

We did the visual intros through one mesh door.

Things were going smoother than the day before.
There was only hissing from RC at the start (not so much puffy anymore), and than later on a few hisses more (RC).
NC was engaged in feather play on his side and RC started playing with the feather too, on occasions was totally relaxed (tail upright, rubbing against me, walking relaxed).
RC got quite a few treats which seemed to help a lot (although she was more relaxed already today from the start).
We were talking to them a lot. I also played some cat relaxing/anti-anxiety music xD

Zacky is a very playful kitten so I'm not sure why exactly he ran up to Baby at one point, but I think and hope he was just playing...
Can anyone share how I can tell if his charges are playful in nature or not-good sign? They happened a few times now.
At one time Baby (RC) came over to the mesh door and was very relaxed and curious about Zacky(NC). Zacky saw her, stopped playing woth the feather, looked at her for a few seconds then charged right up to her. My sister cought him right before he reached the door.

Baby got scared and jumped back, taking cover behind my back for a while, but wasn't so traumatised. She did react after that for some time, everytime Zacky would get loud while chasing the feather(and I don't mean vocally, but he's such a big kittie that the thomping from him running around and jumping and throwing himself on the feather is very loud xD),she would puff jer tail a bit while sitting (no arching).
After some time she returned to the mesh to continue to watch him play (so I'm guessing she didn't take it as a sign of aggression from him).

I'd like to share the video (very brief) and maybe someone else can see what happened?
Before the clip, Zacky was playing with the feather, Baby was also playing on her side, but then came over to the mesh door.
He did look at her with big eyes before charging, but there were no other signs....Once she gets more comfortable we're going to let him charge to the door if he wants to, to see what happens...good idea or bad? (I'm thinking better to see when the mesh is up than later...I hope this wasn't bullying? )

Here's the video:

 

[Valerian]

Update:

Yesterday evening (Day 10) - we had a minor setback I think..
Both cats were playing on either side of the mesh.
But RC got restless quite quickly, and started climbing the door. I got up to help her down (because last time she got stuck) and she got a bit agitated by it when I put her down. Meanwhile NC came up closer to get a look at what was going on, and at that time NC jumped to the gate (on the toy?) that was poking(there's a small gap beneath the mesh door) through to the NC's side, and while laying down started smacking him a bit. NC looked startled and confused and was about to strike back but didn't seem aggressive at all (I think).
After a few sec RC came back and started looking under the mesh through the gap, NC was staring back and was about to approach RC, but we stopped him and ended the session soon.
There was no hissing.

Please help me judge what was happening in this moment of the clip (before that, RC was staring at the NC a lot, while NC was playing with the feather.
(P.s.on the second video, the other sister- the one that's afraid of Zacky xD came to see what the comotion was all about lol I gave her a matching mask )...

Update2 - Today (Day 11)

Yesterday's quarrel (or maybe it wasn't? ) teached us a lesson and this time we had a cardboard sheet ready xD
The initial visual contact went pretty well, there was no hissing or puffines but RC sat right at the mesh door looking at NC playing.
I had a hard time animating her to play with a feather, but I could distract her with treats
Poor NC, but luckily he's so playful he's the one "taking the toll" for it by playing until he's all played out lol
We had an approach by RC to the mesh and NC ran up to jer, so my sister quickly pushed the cardboard between them - the noise of cardboard sliding on the floors spooked both of them so they both ran away (RC hissed and puffed up while running away). She soon approached back while NC was already at the door and we had a sniff and then the RC layed down and rolled a bit (please watch the video experienced cat introductees )
I think that reminded Zack of yesterday when she swatted him while laying down so he slowly backed up.
We played woth either kitties maybe 10 more minutes before ending the session.

Here's the video from today:


Edit:
My sister that was helping me with Zack is going back home today so I won't be able to do the intros anymore untill Friday: /.... do you think this pause from introductions is going to hurt the meeting process?... I don't think I'll be able to do it by myself because NC is only motivated bl play and RC needs someone by her side I think too...

 

[Alldara]

The yesterday video it looked like RC was attempting to join the play! She hopped over happily and then rolled, stuck her feet under the door. She did not have any signs of stress and it's okay to wiggle his toy at her at that point for a moment.

Progress looks great! I love how attentive you are.

Don't worry about being so fast with the cardboard. Allow for some eye contact, even a minor hiss is okay. Remember, a hiss means, back off!

You want to begin building the tolerance of sight. You can even count just a couple seconds, (1,2,3) then distraction. Or a hiss whichever comes first. Remember to praise when they back away (I don't have audio so can't hear if you are )

If you aren't comfortable proceeding with visual introductions on your own, I would say please do non-visual ones. Scent and site swap still and be feeding them at the door with no sight. You don't want to roll them back completely to the start