Second cat, please advise!

[Alldara]

Valerian Clip the back ones too in case of Bunny-kicks. Bunny kicks will look rough. But the cat being kicked will back off it it's too rough; they're usually the ones on top at that point anyway!

- play with each cat first and wear them out a bit
- feed each cat (you said separately was better for your home so keep it separate).
- then, open the gates and see what happens. Keep your cat music on, keep your treats and toys nearby for distraction but expect that they will probably play.

- if you have them, set out lots of tunnels, boxes, tents and things for them to go around, in and through for play. This helps keep them a little calmer in terms of anxiety.

As per scent swaps, it's up to you.


Be prepared for full on wrestling including chomping, kicking, swatting, rolling, all of it. There may be a minor squeek or hiss and that's okay. Remind yourself that it's just like when people rough house. There might be the occasional ow! But most times people are still laughing and enjoying themselves.

Magnus and Calcifer's first time in person was just in Calcifer's room. Cal was fine. Magnus was a bit nervous and watched Cal play with us. He watched Cal play for about 15 minutes and then he decided to leave. We let him out.

Next introduction we did a gate again. Nobel stayed on one side, (he wasn't ready for in-person) and we let Magnus jump the gate. That's the first videos I sent you.

Where we put the base camp is my wife's office. And then for intros, we put the gate so that the new cat has access to our room, the bathroom and their base camp. It also serves as a scent swap in our bedroom and gives new cat extra space to run some energy out. The resident cats stay on the stairs and landing.

So perhaps let her in to his room first would be best to avoid her getting possessive.

 

[Hellenww]

Also let them have their play session at the gate first. When they've spent some energy and are in the relaxed stage open the gate.

Have a large piece of cardboard to put between them if you need it.

 

[Valerian]

Update:

We've played with each of them separately, then let them play with each other by the mesh door.
They had a few times where they layed next to each other

Both of them got a meal without visual access, and we waited until both of them finished.
Then we opened the mesh door and Baby (Rc) went into the room, they puffed slightly and smelled each other, then chased eachother under the bed, then Baby ran under the table amd Zack followed her. Then Zacky ran out of the room and climbed straigth onto the cat tree. Baby followed him and they started swatting a bit on the tree (but it looked more or less playful).

They look so cute togwther, don't they

Soon after, Zack wouldn't stop and kept "going after" Baby.
She went to lay down in one of the branches and seemed like she wanted to be left alone a bit, but Zack kept swatting at her (tail wagging). Whenever she ran to the other room, he ran after her and I saw him swat at her behind and snapped at her (trying to bite her bum). This happened more or less everytime she ran into another room (or turned her back on him) he followed her and kept biting at her bum.
There was no sounds in case of growling or hissing or meowing. But I didn't like his persistent chasing after Baby even when she clearly had enough (she was running from him, hiding under the bed (I know.., this is the only place I forgot to block). There she managed to bite her I think, so I separated them and now Baby is sleeping on the chair and Zachy is laying by the door as if he wants to go out of the room...

And now I have a terrible headache..I hope it passes soon xD....this biting reminds me of my previous pair that ended up having really ugly fights ... although I do see a difference clear as day from the revious pair and this one.

What do you all think? What does his chasing and biting mean?
I don't think I should be allowing this, right?
Or is this still another form of play that I don't understand yet? XD

Should I let them together again even if they Zack keeps chasing after Baby and tries to bite her?
He looked a lot out of breath by the end of the session (cca 20 min or so, maybe 15).
I did distract them a bit in the meantime, but mostly Baby let herself be distracted while Zack was focused on her most of the time (I couldn't really distract him.

I'm mostly concerned about the biting and chasing, if anyone would please explain what this means, I would be ever so grateful!

 

[kakers]

Sounds like overall it went well and I think you made the right call with ending their time together when he wasn't getting the hint. It sounds like he just wanted to play and she was done playing. Hopefully eventually he would get bored of trying but there's also always the chance it turns into a little fight which it sounds like you prevented. Most likely he'll get the hint. It sounds like initially they were trading off whi was doing the chasing which is great! And yes they are soooooo cute together!!!

Everything is going wonderfully! You'll start to find things that will distract him more when he's trying to play and she's not interested. Or he'll just start to get the hint when she's done playing. I can't see anything to be worried about at this point.

 

[Caspers Human]

If cats share space in a cat tree like that, they are friends.
A cat tree is 'territory.' Cats won't share territory like that if they aren't friends or, at least, friendly toward each other.

In my opinion, you are on the downhill slide, now. All you have to do is teach them your House Rules.

Let them chase each other. Let them wrestle and even let them bite a little.
Cats don't have hands. Remember?
Cats have to play with their mouths. Yes, they will bite each other. That's how cats play.
You'll know when the playing and biting gets too rough... "MeeOWW!"... they'll cry out.

If one cat bites too hard or plays too rough and one cat cries but the other one doesn't stop... THAT's when the referee steps in!

Strike 1: Say, "Play Nice!"
Strike 2: Clap hands and say again, "Play NICE!"
Strike 3: Referee steps in and separates the cats. (Distract and redirect.)

If "Strike 3" doesn't work, the cats go into their rooms.

Our two cats play, chase and wrestle almost every night. Elliot, the younger cat, usually starts chasing Casper, the elder cat. Casper will dive behind the sofa and wait for Elliot to come near. Then, he jumps out and attacks Elliot. They wrestle. Casper usually gets the better of Elliot who escapes and runs away. Casper chases Elliot up the stairs and we'll hear the sound of of them wrestling upstairs. After a few minutes, they both come back downstairs and go to their respective hangout spots and rest for a while. About 20 minutes later, it starts all over again. They'll play this game three or four times a night.

I think you can let both cats out, full time, as long as you are home to referee. Let them do what they want unless they get to "Strike 3" but don't quiet down.

Yes, there will be some cat wrestling matches but don't worry. That's the way cats play.

 

[Hellenww]

They look so relaxed and did great for the first time out. He's being the annoying little brother and she might need to hiss and smack when she needs a break. That's part of them learning each others boundaries. It will be difficult to watch but it's an important step in them becoming good friends.

Letting them be together more will make it less exciting for him so more relaxing for all of you.

You're doing great!

 

[Valerian]

I just had another meeting.

They started of calm and looked overall good. Baby sniffed his bum and I think she gave 2 or 3 licks on his tail base.
When he sniffed her, it looked like again he just wanted to bite her.
She looks more relaxed, even when on the cat tree, but he always seems to be focused on her.

I managed to distract Zack a bit by playing with him with a feather, but he soon started growling (he started growling while playing with feathers) so I switched to a ribbon thread. He chased it for a bit and meanwhile Baby was exploring his basecamp.

When Baby came back to the other room from the basecamp he started chasing her again, to thw basecamp and back (90% of the time it's Zack chasing Baby). He chased her back and forth froom room to room. When they were at basecamp it looked like he wouldn't allow her to leave from under the bed, so I distracted him a bit and she ran out of the room. Chasing continued..

I tried to follow them, but couldn't see what happened right When baby gave off a little squeal.
I ended the session there and put Zack back in his basecamp.
Baby didn't seem too distraught after that and is now lying in the branch of the cat tree, looking outside.

I just don't understand why Zack keeps trying to bite Baby....I even saw him try to bite her neck - is this still all play?
I'm so frustrated I wasn't there right at the time something happened between them to see what it was. They were just too fast for me with running from one room to another...

P.s. might I add the picture with them on the tree was a rare moment that didn't last too long where they both looked really relaxed. Mostly it was chasing uesterday also

 

[Alldara]

Chomping and neck biting are pretty normal. Even in the video of Magnus and Cal you see lots of biting and chomping. Most articles will list play biting as well. A play bite is any bite that doesn't draw blood or pull a chunk of hair.
He's hyper-focused on playing with her right now because it IS exciting. Definitely you can cut the sessions if he's being a bit much because that teaches him to not.

Another thing I have done when I see a cat blocking another cat to come out somewhere, I go over to the cat blocking and put my body between the two cats and then just gently hold the cat from blocking from another angle. The cat can walk away, but it's like telling a small child, "I won't let you hit." And putting yourself between them and who they are trying to hit.

When she's under something, is she still sticking her feet out at him and things?

 

[Hellenww]

I just don't understand why Zack keeps trying to bite Baby....I even saw him try to bite her neck - is this still all play?

All play in cats is practice for hunting. Biting, especially the neck, is part of that so is chasing. Zack probably bit too hard. He will learn to play bite gently and he will learn it quicker if Baby is the one to teach him. When he accidentally poked her with a nail at the door she had no problem going at him. If that too hard bite has really hurt her she probably would have smacked him around a bit. It sounds more like she said "hey, that was too hard"

Growling at toys is also completely normal. The "big bad hunter" caught it's prey and is excited. The feather toy sound like it could the one to run off some of his energy.

 

[Valerian]

I don't know how to explain their wrestling..
Mostly it's Zack on top of Baby and she keeps "mrrwawing". And of she mamages to kick him off, he just lunges at her again.
Probably they're playing and he doesn't know when to stop? But it's hard lostening to her meowing and him not stopping (it's not a high pitch meow, more like a growel meow most of the time)..
I'll try to make a video next time.

This time I had to put down the phone so I could clap and yell louder and louder for them to stop (your tactics Caspers Human xD )but unfortunately it didn't really work.
Then my sister yelled really loudly from the other room so they got startled a bit and stopped, but Zack jumped on her back again straigth after and she began to try and wrestle her way out and would still meow so thats when I separated them.

Zack is still a bit slow with taking notice of when he hurts others with his biting and clawing (he still hasn't learned it's not okay to use his claws on us, and he will bite when he wants to initiate play).

I think the best thing is for me to try and film their wrestling sessions so you can give me some feedback to what is happening?

And they were already out of breath and really tired from running around and climbing up and down the tree (you could tell by their breathing, Zack even breathed with his mouth open). But they still found strength to wrestle..

When she's under something, is she still sticking her feet out at him and things?

A Alldara you mean like if she is play hiding from him and poking at him?
I don't think so..she would just get under the bed to the back and stay there untill Zack moves away (or goes under the bed after her and she will run out).

It's really interesting because I thought initially that Baby will be the one that won't leave Zack aline. That's how it looked when they were at the mesh door. He would distract himself with playing with a feather toy, and wouldn't even look at her almost, while she kept her eyes on him.

Not sure if this is significant but the wrestling seems to happen in or near Zacks basecamp.
On their final meeting (3rd time overall) Ishut the door to the basecamp but they start wrestling there in front of the door. I might add this is the place where space is also lumited and there are no levels for them to get away from each other.
In the living room, they would chase eachother up and down the tree and baby usually could get at least some time away from him. But when they're on the ground he just jumps on her and wrestles her down...
I'm a bit afraid of their future meetings.. itsike the forst one went perfect, and then it got worse and worse with time (in case of them not being able or wanting to just leave the other cat alone and try to relax while staying apart)

 

[Valerian]

When he accidentally poked her with a nail at the door she had no problem going at him. If that too hard bite has really hurt her she probably would have smacked him around a bit. It sounds more like she said "hey, that was too hard"

I thought so too, but he just doesn't seem to get what she's saying, or doesn't care...

Growling at toys is also completely normal. The "big bad hunter" caught it's prey and is excited. The feather toy sound like it could the one to run off some of his energy.

Hehe I know he's actually really cute while his growling with his mouth full of feathers
It's just that I think Baby gets startled by his growling so I rather grab some other toy to play with him while she's around
I do llay with the feather toy with him in the basecamp

 

[Alldara]

It's really normal for boys to play too rough at first.

Are you still trying to wear Zacky out with play before the sessions? That's helpful but may not solve the problem completely.

It's true that even though it is play, that Baby is hiding so it's becoming problematic for your home. Zacky needs to learn to back off when she does a squeek.

So some options are:

1. The one I listed in the last post about using your body.

2. Distraction like you did before IF he will take notice. The feather might work best as you said he gets hyper enough to growl at it which means that it a HIGH REWARD toy

3. Ending the session or pausing the session when he gets too rough. (This *may* teach him to back off when she squeeks which is what you want to have happen).

Magnus and Cal played like this at first. Magnus was too rough and I had to use a combination of 1 & 3. They still get too rough sometimes, but if one squeeks, they back off for a short pause. So that's good behaviour.

You can also continue to begin with the gate, and/or if he gets too rough put the gate up for play through the gate. Either way it's just about teaching Zacky to be respectful of Baby's needs and letting Baby teach him some manners.

 

[Caspers Human]

This time I had to put down the phone so I could clap and yell louder and louder for them to stop your tactics... Caspers Human xD... but unfortunately it didn't really work.

I'm 6 ft. tall and 20 stone. When I use my "Dad Voice" cats listen because they know that I mean it.

Years ago, when former cats, Spike and Jerry were still around, they got into it but didn't listen. I walked right over, grabbed a cat in each hand and marched them to their time-out rooms. I never had a problem with them listening to me, again.

Current cat, Elliot still has a tendency to dash for the door if we're not careful. When I go out, onto the back patio, to have a cigarette, Elliot will sit by the screen door and wait for me to come back. (The poor, little guy still has separation anxiety.) He'll lay right by the door. If the screen door were to open, he could be out in a flash. However, when I come back and slide the screen open, he gets up and moves two feet back because he KNOWS that, if he doesn't, he'll get the boot.

Okay... I don't actually kick the cat! I use my toe to nudge him out of the way so that I can get through the door. I just use the word "boot" as a code word. If I say to my cats, "Watch out or you'll get the boot!" they know what that means. If you're coming home with a load of groceries and the cat gets under foot, say, "You're gonna' get the BOOT!" They'll scatter!

If a cat misbehaves, I use my "kid in the cookie jar voice" the first time. I might say, "Ell-IOT!.. No SCRATCH!" (Stop scratching the furniture.) I use short phrases, one or two words. If I have to use my "Dad voice" he knows he's in trouble.

You've got two cats. Both are young and relatively new to your house. They need to learn that, when their human says something, it means business. Your average house cat has the mental state of a two-year old child. They can be willful and stubborn, just as a toddler can be.

I would never hurt a cat, nor would I hurt a kid but there are times when discipline is necessary. If you don't discipline when it's necessary, whether it be kids or cats, they'll never learn to behave.

Strike 1: "Play nice!"

Strike 2: "I said, NO FIGHTING!"

Strike 3: "Go to your room!"

With our oldest cat, Casper, I rarely have to use discipline at all. Even on the rare occasion I have to scold him, I can hardly remember a time when I had to go past "Strike 1."

Our younger cat, Elliot, is only a year old. He's still full of pi$$. Even though he's only been living with us for a bit over a month, he's already starting to learn the House Rules.

When the human says, "No!" it doessn't mean "maybe."

 

[Valerian]

It's 00:00 and I have to get up in 6h but the last session went so well I had to share it with you guys!
A Alldara , thank you for encouraging me to use the toy to distract him even in fe growls while Baby's around

I'm starting to feel more amd more bad about Zacky being shut in the basecamp for so long and away from us (there is only so much time I can spend in the room with him while I have tons of work to do around the apartment wvery day ..) so I decided to let Zacky out of the basecamp again (3rd time today).
And since Baby was feeling playful (she keeps fetching mouse toy) I thought it could be good timing.

I decided to get the feather on a stick toy with me anyway - Baby will comprehend sooner or later that the growling he makes when playing with this toy isn't directed at her, and if I want them to live together under the same roof and in the same rooms she will have to get used to it anyway.

So I approached the mesh door with the toy in my hand and as soon as he saw it, he was totally focused and just wanted to het to it. He didn't even pay any attention to Baby that was right there with me,smelling him through the mesh door xD

So as I opened the door he went straight for the toy and I lead him to the living room where my siater took over the wand and I kept throwing the mouse toy to Baby.

Zacky was chasing the feather toy, growling away like a cougar
Baby did seem a bit cautious and wouldn't climb the tree like she always does when playing with the mouse (she takes it with her to the top branch and then brings it back down to me to throw it into the kitchen again). So I slowly lured her - I wanted to show her there's nothing to be afraid of - Zack was totally in his own world with the toy. So eventually she went up to the tree and we continued playing there while he was playing on the couch under the tree.

Every now and then Zack would look over at Baby when she was making noise catching her toy mouse but was having a blast

When we decided it was time for bed, and since Zack was running out of breath from running around the couch, I simply took the wand and went to his basecamp and he followed me
I now call it the magic wand
Baby did follow us and wanted to be a bit naggy but he stayed focused on the wand si everything wnt as smoothly as it could

I played with him a bit more in the room and then fed him again....boy, does he have an apetite almost ate a whole 200 g can.... and he already got his dinner a few hours before.

Sorry for the long post, I think I'm just so excited I had to write all about it xD

Thank you guys for always giving me good advice and sharing your own stories!

Btw..The shelter didn't pick up the phone when I called them the last time (I wanted to prolong my "trial period with Zack), so I guess they aren't so atrict about the dates anyway, since they didn't call me back. I don't know why thwy would be anyway, if anyhing, it's 1 less cat for them to take care of, so I guess it's gonna be okay if he stays a bit more.
I do think at this point I can start to think positively about Baby and Zack heading in the right direction for being a good match hopefully

 

[Alldara]

Valerian I'm so happy and proud of you. Even by your post I can see the change of additude.

You're right, to live together they need to get used to and become comfortable with how the other acts. You did 100% the right thing by encouraging her and teaching her that she was safe in that moment.

You modified it to your home and found what works for you. It might not always be perfect, but you're going to keep learning just like we all do!

Your cats are speaking two different languages and while they are learning each other you are bridging that gap by teaching them when they are safe and what behaviour is appropriate

 

[Caspers Human]

Yes, I'm happy to see that things are going well for you!

Our two cats are at the "bopping" stage. Elliot is the little upstart who horns in on Casper's space. When Eliot does something that Casper doesn't like, he bops him on the top of the head with his paw. Elliot runs away and Casper chases him. That's fair play according to our house rules because Elliot was the aggressor. Casper, being the elder cat, gets to set the rules and Elliot, the younger, has to behave according to Casper's rules.

It seems, to me, that your cats are doing their own version of "bopping" each other.

It won't be long until your little ones work things out and become cat buddies.

 

[Valerian]

Update:

And I do have stuff to share with you guys!

So, yesterday I was about to post an update about how Baby keeps chasing Zacky until he starts hiding under the coffee table or behind doors (and wants to be left alone). There was some back and forth chasing from both of them, but Baby's body language was always really stiff - you could tell it wasn't really a playful mood. Now I'm not saying she was aggressive towards him, but she did seem "fed up" and was more like bickering playing with him.

On more occasions he wanted to just be left alone (yes, the tables have turned), but she kept her eyes on him, and as soon as he would leave a room, she would follow and jump at him, etc.
She was even puffy for the most of times yesterday, her tail was really puffed up, and I'm talking Christmas tree puffy
The inly time she's puffed up so mich was the forst time I gave her a ball of Zacks hair to smell.

I did allow this though, as Caspers Human suggested, I tried not butting in unless I would hear meowing for help, or hissing or growling (which didn't happen thankfully).

A Alldara I couldn't distract Baby AT ALL while she was focused on Zacky. I tried making a sound, but it ended up only distracting Zacky and Baby took that opportunity to strike him :/ but it ended upwithout serious injuries.
So I just left them be because Zack would look away always while her eyes remained locked on him.
I couldn't block her either, she would just wiggle her way around me.
And they did not stop for a full hour. Then I separated them so they could rest a bit and have a smaller meal after all that running around and tusseling and biting.


Anyway, to the big revelation x)
When they were all tired and sleepy after that session (maybe half an hour later) I thought this might be a great time for another session since they are both too tired.....but no, the chasing started all over again.

Now, for the part I've been really looking forward to share with you all

After some time, Zacky went up to Baby's food dish and started licking leftovers. Baby closed up behind him and started sniffing his bum, then she licked him a bit on his tail. Amd after she was done sniffing (took a while) her attitude towards him totally changed! She became all relaxed, she left him alone, or greeted him nicely when she passed (tail and nose up). When they were chasing she was relaxed - you could see a difference for the best! I couldn't believe it..I guess all it took was for her to get a good sniff at his rear end I didn't know cats do that also, despite having cats all my life lol.

Sadly, my phone ran out of memory since I filmed 40 min of the previous session. So I don't have anything to share right now.
But I'm about to do another session.

Wish me luck

 

[Alldara]

Good luck Valerian ! Those play sessions of hyper focus can happen because they are so over excited. Baby and Zacky are learning each other and will sometimes push limits.

While I wouldn't leave them out together while you're away or asleep, you're able to leave them out together while you're up and doing things at home. That will reduce some of the hyper-focus.

Feel free to continue feeding them with closed doors for as long as you'd like. Some people do this permanently.

 

[Valerian]

I haven't been able to leave them out togenter for more than 2 h max.at a time.

They keep chasing each other and rough housing.
And this goes on mostly all the time.
If one cat finally tries to get some peace and moves away, the other follows and jumps on other and the cycle starts repeating.

They both do this. If one retreats and lays down and clearly has had enough, the otjer one will initiate play.

Today, I had them out for 2 hours and they didn't stop. Even when Zacky started panting, he still would follow Baby and initiate play when she moved away to back up a bit. Then he retreated and she would "stalk" him and jump him.

I had to take Zacky to basecamp and as soon as I did, they both "collapsed" and are now sleeping (Zack in basecamp, shut door), Baby on cat tree.

Otherwise things are progressing slowly. I was able to get them both interested in wand toy, so they both were focused in it at the same time, pictures :

(Edit: P.s. please disregard the coffee stain on the blanket )
This was the closes I got with then not being focused on eachother and keep chasing each other and keeping an eye on one another (it's all playful when they do though. On a few occasions they will get too rough with each other but I think it's happening less and lesss, slowly).

Also, they chased eachother to the bathroom and Zacky went to pee in Baby's litterbox and she was there, laying next to the litterbox watching him, with his back towards her She maybe thought for a moment of disrupting him (he pees a long time x)) but I gently distracted her and she kept laying there until he was done I counted that as a big achievement

Not sure what to do about them not being able to relax fully when they're both out though. They're clearly both run out after 2h of play, but relax and go to sleep only after I separate them and close the door to Zacky's basecamp.
I thought about leaving them out longer but didn't like the way Zack kept panting (vet listened to his heart and said he's healthy).
Baby also panted a lot when I forst got her when she would chase her toy mice around the apartment..

Is this usual? And I just have to let them adjust until they give each other some space?
I'm a bit worried sooner or later one would get fed up with the other and it might rise some resentment?

 

[Hellenww]

Not sure what to do about them not being able to relax fully when they're both out though.

it might rise some resentment?

They are friends, I think your past any resentment.

They are both young and healthy. They will eventually lay down at the same time but at their age it could be several hrs. You want the excitement of being toghether to be a little boring. Closing the door builds the excitement. A ArtNJ compares it to creating Christmas morning everytime you open the door.

It also sounds like they are comfortable enough to let the other know if they don't want to play. Likely one will have enough of the other but it would be more "leave me alone right now" not "I hate you forever"

You're at the sit back and enjoy their antics stage of introductions. Complete success!