When to give up on cats not getting along?

[GGPeeGee]

It all started with an overnight hospital stay for 3 year old Freddy. When he came home, his bonded brother Flaco showed signs of feline non-recognition aggression, (something I never heard of before). We're currently at 2 months of following a slow re-introduction process. They will eat together twice a day and play in the same room twice a day, mostly separately, for about 15-20 minutes. This stage has been going on for several weeks. If we try a longer play time Freddy will end up stalking Flaco and fur will fly. I do try to distract him with toys and this has only happened twice. Since I don't want play time to end badly I keep it short. The rest of the day they remain separated. I swap them out of their areas daily, too. It doesn't appear to be a scent thing anymore. They also will use each other's litter box which I take is a good sign.
What else can I do to help them along?

 

[Kris107]

Is it possible that Freddy gets overstimulated and that's why he stalks Flaco? Some cats don't have that "button" to calm down and have some chill time. Then they get "hyper" and lose all sense. Just curious if you think that could be what's going on. Do you give them treats at the same time for positive association? They may never be bonded best buds again. Some cats kind of outgrow that anyways. I think it's just good to keep them as peaceful as possible with only "safe" rough-housing.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Can you also use a baby gate or something similar that they can see/smell/touch paws through on each side of a door when they are separated? It can be part of the swap process, but it enables them to see each other when they are not actually physically together. I think they need to be exposed to each other almost all the time, but in a manner where they are not able to 'fight'.

I know you said you don't think it is scent related anymore, but you could also try to use vanilla extract trick.- Ode to vanilla extract.

Lastly, worst case scenario, take them both back to the vet at the same time - not necessarily for a vet check, but you could ask if they could spend some time in one of the exam rooms and maybe even have a vet tech come in and pet them both. Some vets will not charge for a vet tech only visit.

 

[Alldara]

Hey G GGPeeGee

I wanted to give you this resource: Non recognition aggression

It's a thread of people who have had a similar problem and they've all supported one another to reintegrate their cats.


one of the biggest things many do is to take an article of clothing that smells like you and quote down Cat A, then Cat B, then Cat A again and then the walls where the cats can smell (by the bottom around the home).

Have you been doing scent and site swaps too?

 

[Kflowers]

Since they have not actually hurt each other, and I promise you a cat who wants to hurt another cat can put a serious gash in the other in less than 10 seconds, you would not have time to stop it. No, wait, that's the good news. There is a really good chance they are playing, fur flying and everything. They have to play rough to exercise, like guys going to the gym and out lifting each other or running faster. And they would need to practice their swearing at each other. They often pick up new swear words at the vet.

This is really important - when cats are playing or fighting - do not put your hands or legs in the middle of it. If you have done this and not been badly ripped up two things are absolutely true -- 1- your cats are not fighting, they still recognize you, they are not in the fight zone and --2 - they aren't even really playing hard. I'm not being snarky, I've lived with several cats at the same time for several decades.

If you want to sperate cats who are playing really hard or fighting, drop a blanket over them and scoop one away. There is still a chance the other will remain furious and go after you because he's still fighting. So, safest thing is to drop a blanket or a quilt on the cats and back off. If you must get your body involved, please wear safety glasses or goggles.

You might want to read the thread mentioned below. It's about a similar -- though not exactly the same situation and includes a video of cats in a real fight.

Is it time to rehome my second cat? | TheCatSite

 

[maggie101]

I agree with K Kris107 , over stimulation. I clicker trained Maggie. It took her a lot longer than peaches to grow up. Now they are senior and sleep in different areas. It took a long time for peaches to tolerate her

 

[GGPeeGee]

Thanks for all the advise. I've read all about non-recognition which is why I'm doing the very slow re-introduction process. I do have a baby gate up too, so they are able to see each other. In the beginning when they were still hissing at each other I did the tuna water trick for 5 days. That actually worked and they were able to eat together and play for a little while.

 

[Alldara]

Thanks for all the advise. I've read all about non-recognition which is why I'm doing the very slow re-introduction process. I do have a baby gate up too, so they are able to see each other. In the beginning when they were still hissing at each other I did the tuna water trick for 5 days. That actually worked and they were able to eat together and play for a little while.

Keep rebuilding that family smell. It really helps.

Did you do site or scent swaps?

They've been separate for awhile now. It's good to keep really immersing them in one another's scents to get used to it again.

Perhaps arr and D_H have some more tips for you.

 

[arr]

I agree with the others that they need more time together, not less. I think Freddy really wants to play so he gets overexcited when he sees Flaco for those brief moments. Also, stalking is part of playing, fur flying is part of playing. Boys especially like to tackle each other and wrestle. Though none of us is there to see it, nothing you described sounds like true aggression.

They can eat together peacefully, they can be in the same room peacefully for 20 minutes. I would try increasing the time they spend together each day. The baby gate is a good idea to start if you are concerned, but I think they could start coming together more freely.

Dont worry so much about the play looking “rough”. They will stalk, tackle, chase, fur will fly, they will put their mouth around the other’s neck, and maybe make some noise. That’s all normal. What you want to watch for is signs that Flaco feels he is being bullied. Does he walk around freely with his tail high or is he constantly hiding? Is his appetite good? Can he freely use the litter box or is Freddy preventing him? Is he playful or withdrawn? Is he over grooming or not grooming at all? Does he have high places he can escape to if he wants to get away from Freddy? It’s a good sign if he chooses a high place to escape to rather than something like under a bed or couch. Given more time together, will they groom each other or sleep near each other?

 

[GGPeeGee]

After they ate together this morning, I let them roam free for a short period of time without stimulating them with toys. Flaco is very content and I don't think he feels bullied at all. He walks around with his tail up and doesn't hide. He'll lay down right in front of Freddy, too. Freddy is more reserved though when their together after eating. It's like he's not quite comfortable with Flaco walking around. Freddy stalked and chased Flaco this morning but nothing became of it. Maybe he does just want to play? It makes me uncomfortable. I'm afraid a fight will happen. How do I get over this? I do agree that they need more time together.

 

[Alldara]

G GGPeeGee I got over this by watching lots of videos of cats playing to learn the difference.

Keep their nails trimmed. That will help keep things safer both for play and if they were to ever fight.

 

[arr]

After they ate together this morning, I let them roam free for a short period of time without stimulating them with toys. Flaco is very content and I don't think he feels bullied at all. He walks around with his tail up and doesn't hide. He'll lay down right in front of Freddy, too. Freddy is more reserved though when their together after eating. It's like he's not quite comfortable with Flaco walking around. Freddy stalked and chased Flaco this morning but nothing became of it. Maybe he does just want to play? It makes me uncomfortable. I'm afraid a fight will happen. How do I get over this? I do agree that they need more time together.

The situation sounds really good! If there was a chase and nothing came of it, then they don’t want to fight. They had ample opportunity and nothing significant happened.

Remember, cats are very sensitive and can pick up on our feelings. If we are tense, it can make them more tense. If we relax, it helps them to relax. I know it’s really hard, I went through reintroduction four times in three years. It is so stressful, and one is always fearful of a setback. But in every reintroduction, there comes a point where we have to move out of our comfort zone if we want further progress, there’s no way around it.

It sounds like they are doing really good today, but you don’t have to leave them fully free if you are still nervous. Just commit to increasing the time significantly every day now. More exposure to each other will kind of desensitize them to each other, so hopefully they’ll behave a little calmer as time goes on.

When we were at this stage, we always had someone in the general area with them, we had a piece of cardboard handy to calmly separate them if need be, but we also tried to relax and went about our own business.

Try to bring them together a few times a day for a delicious lick able treat that they can’t resist. Have them both licking it off your hand at the same time. This may help them to do some sniffing and grooming of each other.

 

[GGPeeGee]

Good advice, thank you!

 

[Kflowers]

Just to warn you, when they wrestle, they will flip each other over on the floor. It makes a thud sound. It doesn't seem to hurt them, though sometimes it will make them back off from each other and wash a shoulder or foot.

The best think you might do, if watching cat rough house play videos is too disturbing for you, is to talk to people with toddlers, or little boys up to age 5 or 6. Ask people about how they got on with their brothers or sisters. It's really normal for all young things to play rough with their siblings, it's how they learn survival skills. Wrestling and flipping each other over, completely normal.

 

[Meowmee]

Just to warn you, when they wrestle, they will flip each other over on the floor. It makes a thud sound. It doesn't seem to hurt them, though sometimes it will make them back off from each other and wash a shoulder or foot.

The best think you might do, if watching cat rough house play videos is too disturbing for you, is to talk to people with toddlers, or little boys up to age 5 or 6. Ask people about how they got on with their brothers or sisters. It's really normal for all young things to play rough with their siblings, it's how they learn survival skills. Wrestling and flipping each other over, completely normal.

We never wrestled or flipped each other But my boy cats do all the time

 

[Meowmee]

It all started with an overnight hospital stay for 3 year old Freddy. When he came home, his bonded brother Flaco showed signs of feline non-recognition aggression, (something I never heard of before). We're currently at 2 months of following a slow re-introduction process. They will eat together twice a day and play in the same room twice a day, mostly separately, for about 15-20 minutes. This stage has been going on for several weeks. If we try a longer play time Freddy will end up stalking Flaco and fur will fly. I do try to distract him with toys and this has only happened twice. Since I don't want play time to end badly I keep it short. The rest of the day they remain separated. I swap them out of their areas daily, too. It doesn't appear to be a scent thing anymore. They also will use each other's litter box which I take is a good sign.
What else can I do to help them along?

I tend to agree with that if they haven’t injured each other they’re not fighting and they’re not going to. I would also suggest more time together. The longer you keep them apart in this situation, if they’re not really injuring each other, the harder it’s going to be for him to be re-integrated into the house.

My Siamese Quinn, a few years ago, started getting very upset when his brother went to Dvm…he would growl, and hiss, puff up etc. and poor Merlin was so confused. After telling Quinn to stop, I pretty much ignored it and in a few hours he was back to normal, lol. I think once I wiped them off maybe, wiped off the dvm smell first and then scent swapped etc.

My three original guys wrestle with each other all the time, it’s nonstop. In between sleeping etc of course, they are very affectionate to each other also. Fur is flying everywhere Quinn is the aggressive one. Sometimes he gets too out of hand, and bites their necks, and they screech- at that point I’ll just go over, and tell him to stop. He usually listens to me but now they get worried if I start getting upset with them when they’re wrestling, and they look up at me worried, it’s so funny.

 

[Jstnh2007]

My boy cats wrestle like that too and I recently went through the non-recognition agresssion and I would get nervous when I saw them wrestle like that. Sometimes fur did go flying but I remembered they always played like that and there was no hissing or growling and their claws weren’t out. If it was a real fight I think I would know it! I do understand it’s hard to get over seeing your cats that have been lifelong friends suddenly hate each other! To us it seems like for no good reason too! Please keep up posted!

 

[GGPeeGee]

Last night I initially had both together for 40 minutes after they had eaten together. During this time Freddy stalked Flaco twice which resulted in hissing and swatting from Flaco who also ran away with Freddy running after. I was able to get them both back together with food and then separated them. They each have different areas of the house with a baby gate between them.
Later I tried again. Basically the same results but a more intense encounter. I was able to break it up and separate them. Flaco had his ears flat back in these situations. He was not playing.
All seems to be ok until Freddy goes after Flaco. When they are together, both can walk right past each other without an issue. They sniff each other and even briefly groom each other.
One other interesting thing happens. As soon as they are done eating, Freddy will use Flaco's litter box. Is this a dominance thing?

 

[Hellenww]

I'm afraid a fight will happen. How do I get over this? I do agree that they need more time together.

Look at some pictures from when they were getting along together. Remember they are still those same cats. Let yourself feel the joy you felt when those pictures were taken.

If you leave them alone what does Flaco do? You said he runs. Give him time to make Freddy understand him. I know it's hard to stay back but there are no injuries and Flaco isn't hiding or shaking in fear.

I think separating them and then letting them get together is building the excitement each time.

 

[BigCoffinHunter]

I wonder about this sometimes too. Xander and Finn simply are not getting along, but it’s early. Xander (6 month old male) just joined the family May 19th. Finn (7 year old female) has ALWAYS been a grouchy cat. There are no serious injurious fights, but she hisses at him and smacks him. To be fair, I notice he stalks her a lot and while he runs off when she smacks him, he comes right back. I’m not sure if he’s just trying to bug her! He never seems very upset, other than running off briefly when she pounces.