Trying to convert Kyle & Kegan

[dan32]

Kyle and Keegie have made remarkable progress on "the road to raw".  I am up to 2 heaping tablespoons of raw per half can, which ends up making quite a big dish full.  I am still serving kibble, but am doling it out very sparingly.  I have also offered up the raw bites as daytime treats, just putting them out frozen without any addional embellishment and they disappear after about 15 minutes.  We are probably very close to being there.

We still have a small stockpile of canned food left, so I guess I will just serve it out until it is gone.  Maybe save a couple of cans for emergencies.  I think I could probably just dish up the raw only, but hate throwing food away.

The only stumbling block I am having is what I would do for times I am not at home - especially vacations when the cat lady only comes by every other day.

I have friends who have been serving up raw to their boys for years, but they also get small amounts of kibble.  My friend actually counts out the kibble they get - something like 12 pieces daily to keep them in practice.  The friends are currently at the shore for a two week hiatus and they leave their boys in the care of a neighbor who just dumps kibble down - then its back to raw + 12 when they get home.

Any thoughts on this?  What do others do?

 

[goholistic]

Wow...great progress! 

I've had this same concern about what to do when away from home. Honestly, I haven't even gone on vacation because of the amount of care my cats need. My mom will take care of them, but only comes every other day. I guess I would have to compensate her or a "sitter" to come every day, and then I suppose they would just get one big meal once a day. They'll live.  

  You can also get those pop-up timer feeders to go off in the middle of the night or something. You could advise the cat lady to put freeze dried raw (like Stella & Chewy's) in those, set the timers, and it would be okay to leave. 

 

[ldg]

We don't go on vacation, so I don't have suggestions. I think the timer with the freeze dried is probably your best bet though.

But that IS great progress! :bigthumb:

 

[ritz]

What great progress--and yeah for you for being so patient.

I'm luckily in that my niece will come over twice a day and feed "Ritz Cracker" so I haven't had to face this problem.

I agree about the timer & freeze dried, probably your best bet.

Do test the timer you buy beforehand.  Some cats don't like the sound of the mechanism when the food popps out.

And some timers' timer are off.

 

[dan32]

I would have to find a freeze-dried brand that they like.  Any suggestions?  Stella & Chewys (both Chick Chick Chicken Dinner and Tummy Ticklin Turkey Dinner) were total duds.   Nobody woudl touch it, (S&C) dry or rehydrated.

I have had bad luck with timers in the past not working just when you need them and poor puss was going hungry.  It would only be needed for the inbetween days when the cat lady wasn't here.  Maybe she could just dump out freeze-dried in a dish like kibble.  This would definately have to be rehearsed beforehand.

Periodically I get corraled into  2 1/2-3 week family cruises with a bunch of long faces from my family if I offer cat excuses.  Do you think just reverting back to kibble would be so bad?  I know there are a lot of purists here.

 

[aprilprey]

I know there are a lot of purists here.

I am definitely not one of them (The Boyfriend is - drives me nuts).  What about leaving canned out once a day?  I know I know...you aren't supposed to leave canned food out longer than (fill in blank with your preferred number).  But I'd rather leave canned out all day than raw.  I did lots of shelter volunteer work in Seattle years back....they would leave cans out for a day all the time.

But I don't know if I'd want a sitter coming every other day - just for the simple reason I would want them checked on once a day.  You never know what could happen - for example, my cat Boo has actually gotten herself stuck in one of my bathroom drawers!  I can't explain how without pencil and paper....it confused the crap outta me until I figured out how she did it.  But if I had a sitter coming every other day, she could have been stuck in there for two days!

 

[dan32]

My cat sitter charges $20 per day and if you multiply out 18 days away on a family cruise, it runs into some big money.   9 days is plenty.  Plus the brothers hide in the basement when she comes over, so she doesn't even see them in person.  My aunt is famous for just plopping down a thousand bowls of kibble and leaving puss for the duration.  It is funny, they think I am frivolous to even hire a cat sitter for every other day.

I live out in the middle of nowhere currently, so I am not in a little neighborhood where somebody can easily just walk across the street.  Even when I did live in an urban neighborhood, it was a lot to ask for friends to come over, hunt around for parking every single day for weeks.  Yes, I suppose a lot can go wrong while on vacation, like last year's family cruise out of Boston which co-incided with Hurricane Sandy.  I ended up cutting that one short and  was glad I came back as I was without electric for two weeks. The kitties were not inconvenienced as I was here to man the generators.   I could start a whole nother thread about the terrors of going on vacations.

I don't take vacations all that often, but get plenty of pressure from friends and family members that I should be taking more. It is one problem that kibble solves quite easily.  I would still be open to trying a freeze-dried solution if anyone has any suggestions.    Do you think that one could just keep a bowl full of freeze-dried out in place of kibble?   It is pretty expensive the freeze-dried, no?

All something to think about..  I have already been getting pressure that what I really need to "get over" the loss of my Kinney-Kins is a nice 14-day cruise..

 

[ldg]

Oh geez.

There are other freeze dried options: Nature's Variety, Primal, Vital Essentials.... they would need to be broken up into chunks as they're all either patties or nuggets. But there are options.

Personally, I don't think kibble for whatever period of time is going to hurt if you decide to go that route.

FYI, I gave Tuxedo Fancy Feast as a treat on his "Gotcha Day" which was over a year after the transition to raw. He got really bad diarrhea from it. So now I give all the cats a taste of some canned food from time-to-time so it doesn't violently upset their systems. Your boys haven't been on canned/raw that long, so I doubt the kibble would upset their tummies much - if at all. :dk:

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

First off, I am SO SORRY about Kinney.  I totally missed your other thread about him where you said how he didn't make it.  My heart aches for you 

.  What a handsome boy he was (and his brothers too...are they TRUE brothers from the same litter or at least the same parents, different litters ?) 

Anyway, as far as feeding kibble when you are away...I'm not sure I would do it, simply because my pickies took SO long to convert to raw that I'm afraid I'd have to start all over again with them

  But, like LDG, I do feed canned at least twice a week, grain free, low carb for the boys, although yesterday I broke down and bought Callie Fancy Feast just because she is a kidney cat and getting to that stage where it's an effort to get her to eat anything anymore

.  So, I think you could definitely go with having someone leave out canned food, and some folks will actually leave it out frozen, so it will stay fresh longer.

Or, even better would be if you can find a freeze dried raw that they like, as long as they aren't the kind that will chow it all down in one sitting.  Some cats will try to do that...my Darko is a complete piggy and would lay down with his arms around the food dish when we served kibble, and eat and eat and eat.  It's a wonder anyone else had anything to eat

.  Along with the suggestions for Freeze dried that LDG mentioned, there is also Feline Naturals, and, of course, OTHER flavors of Stella and Chewys.  Mine really like the Duck, Duck Goose and the Chicken and Salmon, but only in dry form. 

 

[dan32]

Thank you, Mrs Greenjeans:

Kyle and Kegan are actual littermate brothers.  I had a previous set of brothers and it was the most beautiful thing in the world to watch them together.  Maybe in some way, I knew that Kinney might not last, so when I had the chance I got a set of brothers instead of just a single companion for Kinney.  I am glad I did now.  I will probably just ride along with the two of them for awhile and see how the dynamics change.

And yes, they would be the types to eat all the freeze-dried until it was gone.  But I would only be concerned that there was enough left for the other day the cat lady didn't come.  I am considering going away for an extended weekend in the near future, so the kibble will probably be served.  They are still getting some kibble now, but very small amounts compared to the buffet it was before.

Feed canned once or twice a week - something I hadn't considered.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Guess I should clarify...I feed canned 2 out of 21 meals per week

  (unless something unforeseen happens, then I might throw another canned meal into the mixz0  Basically, if I am not home, hubby feeds them canned, unless I will be gone for several days in a row, then he anties up and does the whole raw thing.  But I have to spend several days "training" him

.  That's ok,  I am grateful he is willing to do that.  Thankfully, IF we ever go on vacation, our neighbor is willing to feed the kids raw, but I don't see us doing that anytime in the near fugure.  We were supposed to go on a Canada/New England cruise ourselves this year for our 35th anniversary, but it didn't work out, and I'm thinking it was fate, since Callie ended up getting sick.  Not sure our neighbor will be willing to go thru what I go thru daily to try to get her to eat.  (You know THAT routine).  She loves our furbabies, but, afterall, she does have HER life to live, and her own 3 dogs to take care of .

 

[meranaldar]

I went away a few weeks ago, and I had a pet sitter come by once a day feeding 3 meals of raw in an automatic feeder with an ice-pack. So they came around each evening and put one meal down on a plate for the evening meal, one in one side of the feeder for the night meal, and the meal for the following morning was put in the other side of the feeder while still frozen.

If you could only get the sitter once every other day, and you don't mind feeding kibble, perhaps have them feed raw the day they come, and have kibble for the following day, so that way at least they're still getting the raw every second day.

 

[dan32]

So, we are fast approaching the totally raw segment of our show.

One more rant about kibble.  I had an unfortunate need to be taken to the emergency room a few days ago and not knowing when I would be back, I instinctively just dumped kibble out into their bowls on the way out the door to meet the ambulance.  Kibble?!?!  How to eliminate...  It sure is convenient in a bind.

I was finally able to find a pet store yesterday who had freeze-dried in any quantity, but it is frightfully expensive.  I bought a bag of Primal freeze-dried Chicken & Salmon for over $25.  The brothers like it which is good, but I will probably save it for an actual vacation at those prices.  That is the first time I have ever seen Primal freeze-dried offered at any stores I am going to - it looks like dried up versions of the frozen raw cakes.  About the same quantity as the 3# bag of frozen Primal raw cakes, so I suppose it is comparable in price.

I also took inventory of this new store because they also carried almost the full line of Nature's Variety frozen bites which Kyle/Kegan are eating currently.  They had the 4# bags of chicken for $26, other flavors $29.  Now when I compute that, it works out to around $7 a pound - pretty rich.  Extrapolating even further, $7 a pound would conceivably work out to around $2.50 per 5.5oz can were it a canned product.  Pretty much would cover the best of the best in canned.

I know that I can easily find chicken parts routinely on sale for $1 - $1.69 per pound.  There is quite an incentive to making my own.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Gosh, I'm sorry you ended up in the ER...hope everything is OK now

.  Yes, I guess it's a good thing you still had some kibble hanging around, in that instance, if you don't have a cat sitter at the ready who knows your raw routine or could at least learn very fast

(over the phone)

So glad you're boys are almost at the 100% raw mark.  Very exciting

AS far as making your own, yep, it's definitely less expensive.  Just remember, when using chicken especially, most companies add a sodium based broth to "enhance" it, so you need to read the labels very carefully.  It's usually way too high in sodium for our little furkids.  If you buy organic chicken, then your cost goes WAY up.  I hardly ever feed mine chicken just because it's hard to find it without additives.  Next time I order from Hare Today, though, I may order some chicken breasts from there ($4 per lb plus shipping, which will make it about $5/lb)  But I DO buy chuck steak, pork loin (when I can find THAT unenhanced) and chicken hearts from the grocery store.  The rest I do get from Hare Today.  And on that cost of meat, don't forget you'll need to add supplements 

 

[dan32]

I was talking about using chicken thighs fresh from the grocer's meat case, maybe trying out the recipe on http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#Putting_the_Recipe_Together.  I see chicken thighs on sale for $0.99 a pound on a regular basis (breasts too), like I would buy for myself.  You are saying that packaged chicken parts have additives?  I would think whole chickens might be injected, but not parts.   I will have to read the labels thoroughly.

Dr. Pierson quotes about $2 per finished pound for chicken, even using higher grade poultry than I am quoting.  But then, we are talking about knowing what we are feeding them, right?  I would think even feeding them plain old chicken thighs would be better than processed food, even if they aren't organic.  Plus, I don't see where Nature's Variety is claiming to be using organic chicken, either.

My cat sitter does not have my keys, so I would have to either have a poison pill letter at the ready to mail off on my way out the door to the ambulance - or something.  Not that this happens often.  I have often wondered what I would do in such a circumstance, not knowing if my trip to the hospital was for a few hours or several days.

 

[peaches08]

I use chicken thighs from my grocery store to make that recipe. And yes, it is substantially cheaper than commercial raw. I don't buy organic, but it is not enhanced and hormone free. Having a deep freezer helps me keep costs down by buying meat on sale.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I bought a big bag of chicken thighs (flash frozen) at Costco, and they ARE enhanced.  I was kind of surprised.  Breasts are typically enhanced, but thighs surprised me. 

 

[dan32]

Now, 2 and 1/2 months later - I was running out of canned inventory to mix with the raw.  Since we were up to 2 heaping tablespoons of NV Raw Bites mixed with 1/2 can per serving, I thought maybe we were ready to go totally raw.  The brothers have been also getting Raw Bites by itself as treats during the day and they have been well received.  I decided we were ready for our first totally raw meal.

I served up about 1/2 cup of the NV Raw rabbit by itself and they gave me that stare like "What is this?"  Both guys laid on the floor next to the dish and decided to wait me out.  After about 20 minutes, I buckled and opened a can of fish flavor I had around.  They ate it without hesitation.  The raw rabbit went back in the fridge.

Today, I reluctantly went out to the stores and restocked a small amount of cans to continue mixing.  I am thinking they are missing the gravy that the canned food gives to the mixture.  The NV Raw Bites are similar to little meatballs with no juice whatsoever.  When I have been mixing them into the canned flavors, I have been mashing them up with a fork first then stirring them in and they practically melt away into the canned food.

To go any further at increasing the amount of Raw Bites would imply that I should probably be cutting the 1/2 can into thirds as it is getting to be quite a large dish of food as it is.  Like 3 heaping tablespoons of raw bites to 1/2 can would make too much.  Dividing cans into thirds gets to be like a chemist or something requring the scale.  I thought they were ready but I was surprised at the reaction last night.  Oh please!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Maybe next time try just dropping a dollop of canned on top of the raw and see what happens.  I still do that on occasion when one of mine gets picky, since another of mine isn't eating raw at all anymore, so I've always got at least one can open, if not more than one.  (so you haven't been cutting down on their canned food as you have been increasing their raw?  Oops...did we forget to tell you to do that?  Eyeballing is fine, at first, but you definitely need to keep an eye on their weight

) 

Yes, cats are very strange eaters.  I swear they would rather starve than eat something not to their liking

.  My one girl will be so hungry she comes running up to the bowl, but take one sniff and walk away.  So...because she is a kidney cat and needs to eat, I will present her with something else.  She will come running back all ready to dive in, take a sniff, and once again, if it's not something she wants that moment in time, she will again walk away.  And back I go for yet something else.  If she does the same thing with the 3rd try, then she is out of luck, but it always shocks me to know that she will do that when she is obviously hungry.  And she isn't nauseated, I don't think, because there are not the usual tell tale signs.  And the next meal she will usually eat the first thing I presented her earlier

.  SO frustrating. 

 

[dan32]

We're still disguising raw with canned, as well as serving some kibble around here

.

It is the worst of all worlds keeping all of these food types in stock, but compared to sick kitties who won't eat at all - I thank my lucky stars for two good eaters.

The brothers looked like they were putting on weight , so I started splitting down the canned food into thirds instead of halves per serving so I can keep increasing the raw amounts past 2 heaping tablespoonfulls.  I'm getting to where I have to compute and weigh the portions - too complicated.  Geesh, after three months you would think they would be getting this by now.  I can feel the pull to just go back to some routine and not keep trying to change them.

I think at the very least, I will move up to a higher grade of canned food. I have computed the price per serving, and the higher grades of canned food is very similarly priced to the commercial raw.  I suppose it is really the evil kibble that is the villian more than the canned food, yet I can still see a validity of having it around in some way.

This had a lot more sense of immediacy when Kinney was fighting his lymphoma.  Now that I am down to two good eaters who never throw up and never have, the diet changes have lost a lot of their punch.  Not to worry, we still have big quantities of commercial raw around to finish off, so I won't be abandoning my original mission any time soon.

I'm wondering to try one of the additive kits you just mix in with any protein muscle meat to see if they like that any better.  Maybe I could make it up a little soupy so they wouldn't be missing their gravy at dinnertime.