The Introduction to Rad Cat Frozen Raw

[tobytyler]

Thanks Laurie!
Aww...thanks. But I think your cats are eating just as well, if not better?

Heck no

  You are adding all these things and measuring and there's so much variety.  You aren't missing anything.  Mine are just eating 4 Rad Cat meals per day and I started adding the chicken wing for Cricket.  That I add not so much as a meal but more for him to gnaw on.   I sprinkle a little Fortiflora on their meals only because I have it, they don't need it anymore.  So I might use a packet 1xday among all three.  I will be adding more prey, just need to do a little more research.  I am also somewhat lazy. Right now the routine is just to heat everything up in warm water while I get their dishes warmed up. 

  

Oh you super parents.....

 

[otto]

Rad Cat is a very good diet, and there is no reason for you to berate yourself for feeding it. I wouldn't use warm water to defrost it though, as you might be inadvertently cooking it. I've always fed warmed up canned food, by running hot water over the dish first. But I discovered when I put rad cat, even if it was still icy, in a hot dish, the rad cat would get...cooked, around the edges and bottom of the food. So I no longer warm up the dishes for the rad cat. They have no trouble eating it cold, even though they have eaten warm canned food all their lives (I still warm up the canned :lol3

Everyone has to proceed with raw feeding at their own level of comfort and speed. I'm happy with where I am now, but it took a long time to get here. I started with Stella&Chewy's back in May.

I never thought I would even come this far, truthfully, but here I am.

I defrost the rad cat by putting the tub in a plastic zip lock, then leave it in a bowl of cold water for about an hour. Then, while it's still frozen but softened enough to work with I break it up into the serving sizes and put them back in the freezer. Each night I take out what I plan to feed the next day and put it in the fridge overnight. No waste this way.

 

[tobytyler]

I wouldn't use warm water to defrost it though, as you might be inadvertently cooking it. I've always fed warmed up canned food, by running hot water over the dish first. But I discovered when I put rad cat, even if it was still icy, in a hot dish, the rad cat would get...cooked, around the edges and bottom of the food. So I no longer warm up the dishes for the rad cat. They have no trouble eating it cold, even though they have eaten warm canned food all their lives (I still warm up the canned

)

I defrost the rad cat by putting the tub in a plastic zip lock, then leave it in a bowl of cold water for about an hour. Then, while it's still frozen but softened enough to work with I break it up into the serving sizes and put them back in the freezer. Each night I take out what I plan to feed the next day and put it in the fridge overnight. No waste this way.

Hey, that makes it even easier. 

  I wondered if some of it wasn't getting a little cooked because I use metal dishes, and as I would stir out the ice crystals the bottom would seem like it was changing color.  Mine are fine eating it cold as well, I just thought it should be closer to body temperature.   Great tip about partially thawing in cold water to break it up, tomorrow I pick up a case and I think they are 24 oz.

 

[otto]

The thawing method was suggested to me here, it wasn't my own idea.

I do use a scale though, I divide the Rad Cat into one ounce sections, put those portions in ice cube trays and re-freeze until they are frozen solid again, then put them all in a freezer bag. I take out the one ounce portions and put them in small glass pyrex containers with lids, and they thaw overnight in the refrigerator.

 

[tobytyler]

The thawing method was suggested to me here, it wasn't my own idea.

I do use a scale though, I divide the Rad Cat into one ounce sections, put those portions in ice cube trays and re-freeze until they are frozen solid again, then put them all in a freezer bag. I take out the one ounce portions and put them in small glass pyrex containers with lids, and they thaw overnight in the refrigerator.

Mine are now eating 8 oz split among three per meal, so when it's the 8 oz tub it's easy.  I need to get both a food scale and a human or baby scale.  I do have a postal scale but it doesn't go down that small.  I do sometimes use it to weight my kitties, but it isn't ideal.

 

[otto]

Yes, the 8 oz tubs are very handy that way. Just split them in three same size pieces! Where I special order my Rad Cat the price isn't that much different between 8, 16 and 24 (on an ounce per ounce basis) but now that I have the scale and a method that works for me, I prefer the 16 oz size.

 

[ldg]

Rad Cat is a very good diet, and there is no reason for you to berate yourself for feeding it....

Everyone has to proceed with raw feeding at their own level of comfort and speed.

:nod:

I would want to add other food into the rotation if you can find something they like. But if I could afford commercial raw for all my cats (that they ate consistently), I'd be doing that. I prefer lazy. :lol3: I would still continue to use some supplements: a daily probiotic, the egg yolk lecithin, and the krill or salmon oil. But, IMO, even just feeding some raw - in whatever form - is a healthier diet for the kitties!

 

[otto]

Hurray for Mazy cat! Tonight Mazy ate chicken breast and liver, (with the usual calcium and taurine and krill on it) without any garnish! Up until now the only PMR she will eat without the garnish is Cornish hen. So tonight was a new milestone for her.

On the other hand, Queen Eva still needs help finishing her liver (click on picture to play video)
http://s693.photobucket.com/albums/...t=QueenEvaeatingliver11-21-12_zps55420cac.mp4

:nod:
But, IMO, even just feeding some raw - in whatever form - is a healthier diet for the kitties!

Absolutely. I started back in May with Queen Eva just eating one meal of Stella&Chewy's added to her daily diet. Just ONE meal, which at first was only 5 nuggets (rehydrated) The improvements in appetite were almost immediate. By six weeks on just that one Stella&Chewy's meal (gradually worked up to 10 nuggets) in addition to her canned food, her coat was so much nicer and she had gained 3 ounces. I was astounded. And sold on raw feeding. :lol3:

 

[otto]

Hurray for Mazy cat again! Tonight she ate her turkey thigh and liver (with calcium and taurine) with no garnish! I can't believe it! It was odd though that this morning she flat out refused to eat the Rad Cat chicken. She's never refused that before, I mean, not since the very early days. I didn't insist though.

And Queen Eva ate her liver, without needing garnish! I cut it in two pieces instead of one .05 oz lump, maybe that's the trick.

Jennie left some of her calcium powder on her dish so I sprinkled a little Vets-Best over it so she would lick it up. I suspect she's learned to do this on purpose now, because she loves the Vets-Best Hairball Relieve, they all do. :lol3:

 

[otto]

BONE!!!!! I was cutting up a cornish hen today and got brave.

I gave Jennie a whole wing tip. I gave Mazy and Queen Eva each half a wing tip, but cut up into pieces. Jennie crunched through hers like a pro. Queen Eva hesitated, but ate most of her little pieces. Mazy wanted some garnish, and once I dusted her wing pieces with Vet's-Best hair ball relief dust, she ate them all up. Mazy ate what Queen Eva left, too.

 

[ldg]

Even Queen Eva???? Wow - must be tasty AND fun! :lol3:

I'm going to continue to feed some bone-in meals (I mean apart from some ground). I'm not sure how much yet - I don't like losing control over their Ca ratio, but I want them to have the chewing. But FYI, eggshell has less magnesium than bone. If I remember correctly, bone is about 0.5% magnesium, and eggshell is 0.3%. So for really sensitive FLUTD / crystal kitties, while I'm sure bone in rotation can't hurt, eggshell is a good source of calcium. And with the membrane, they are getting their glucosamine and chrondroitin. I also found out today that gizzards are a good source of those joint healthy nutrients!

 

[otto]

Thanks Laurie.

I'm confused about this part though

eggshell is a good source of calcium. And with the membrane, they are getting their glucosamine and chrondroitin. I also found out today that gizzards are a good source of those joint healthy nutrients!

Do you mean the membrane that is inside an eggshell? Is that part of the eggshell powder? How do you know?

Mazy's propensity to form struvite is main reason I decided to NOT use bone It's also why I feed Rad Cat for their commercial frozen raw portions. But I don't think a wing every now and then will be too much.

Queen Eva is the only one who gets bone regularly, in her daily meal of Stella&Chewy's, but that is ground up, of course.

Good to know that about the gizzards. They get chicken gizzards every four or five days.

*****
I do have a question about the egg shell powder though. I am hoping you can reassure me. I read the other day somewhere that egg shell powder is used as a phosphorous binder? Wouldn't that mean that their diet might be too low in phosphurous, if using egg shell as calcium? Or did I misunderstand what I was reading? I can't find the reference now. I thought I bookmarked it, but I can't find it.

 

[ldg]

Yes, the membrane, and the Alnutrin eggshell powder contains the membrane, I contacted them to ask. (And how labor intensive would that be, to remove the membrane?)

As to phosphorus binding... it's not that straightforward. I think you may be thinking of egg whites, and I'm not sure what about them makes them a good phosphorus binder. I think the word "binder" may be a bit of a misnomer... I suspect it's that the egg whites are high in protein with very little phosphorus. To be used in this fashion though, the egg whites must be cooked, because that's what "inactivates" the avidin and the trypsin inhibitors (that interfere with vitamin B1 uptake).

As to the eggshell... I just googled it, and it does turn up as a phosphorus binder. But that's because calcium carbonate can be considered a phosphorus binder: it's when it is used in excess beyond the needs of balancing the phosphorus in the diet. Here are a couple of quick articles:

http://www.aakp.org/aakp-library/Phosphate-Binders--What-Are-They-And-How-Do-They-Work-/

And the wiki... with a very simple overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate_binder

And on calcium...

http://www.naturalways.com/calciumResearch.htm

But the answer to your question is no, their diet will not be too low in phosphorus if using eggshell as a calcium supplement. In the end, it is the amount of elemental calcium that works with the phosphorus to ensure they metabolize the right amount and in the correct balance, which is why we measure how much to give.

 

[otto]

Thank you Laurie. Yes that is exactly what I wanted to know. I wasn't thinking of egg white, I know that cooked egg white adds high quality protein without phosphorous (it does not bind phosphurous), and so reduces the phosphorous in the diet that way, I learned that back in the days when I was first getting Mazy cat off the c/d.

My concern was about the egg shell calcium being used as a phosphorous binder. But your explanation is very clear and my mind is at ease now. Wish I could remember where I saw that discussion, it was only a couple days ago. I want to re-read it to see if I misunderstood. I even scrolled through my histories of the last few days, but didn't see anything that rang a bell.

 

[otto]

The girls have had some additions to their diet other than the egg yolk once a week. Queen Eva and Jennie are getting the occasional Cornish hen wing, which they both love and have no trouble with. Jennie and Queen Eva also get these little servings of Cornish hen bone with the meat shreds on it, cut up into small pieces, that I froze into half ounce servings, after I cut up the Cornish hen. Neither of them have trouble with those.

If an effort to get more heart into their diet, I've had to turn to freeze dried products. The only fresh heart available to me locally is the packages of chicken gizzards and hearts, which are mostly gizzard. Usually there are only 3 hearts in whole one pound package.

So I bought some freeze dried (raw) turkey hearts, to use as treats/toppers. All three cats LOVE them. They are very rich, so I will split one heart between the three of them, every couple of days. I've ordered some freeze dried (raw) duck hearts too.

As ever, there is still the challenge of Mazy having enough variety in her protein sources. She gets chicken, turkey and Cornish hen. Even though she is getting different parts of these meats, which offer some variation of nutrients, still, three different animal protein sources is the minimum number and I would like her to have at least one more. Jennie and Queen Eva have lamb and beef in addition to chicken, turkey and Cornish hen. Mazy can't tolerate red meat. I may try again with her at some point, but not right now.

So, with some trepidation I have started her on Stella&Chewy's freeze dried (raw) duck and goose (complete meal, re-hydrated). Stella&Chewy's contains bone. I worry about Mazy having bone, because of her history of urinary tract problems. I also worry about Mazy having my hard well water (to re-hydrate the S&C). However, I am aiming for two meals a week of Stella&Chewy's duck and goose. She had her first serving today, just a small amount to start of course. She really liked it, and it stayed down.

Raw meat is naturally acidifying, so technically, bone in meals should not cause her any problems. Still..I worry.

The grocery stores around here don't seem to offer fresh or frozen duck, at least not any that hasn't already been marinated in some way, so for now it's Stella&Chewy's or nothing. And I really really want her on one more protein, which will mean more raw and that much less canned. I think she'd do really well if I can get her 50-50 on the canned-raw ratio. I wish I was brave enough to go 100% raw with her. Maybe someday. A year ago I never would have dreamed I'd be feeding raw at all. :lol3:

 

[ldg]

That's GREAT the S&C duck & goose stayed down!

And yeah - the diet IS acidifying! I was feeding commercial ground, and a lot of HT ground especially to Spooky, because she's been up and down with the frankenprey. And we found she had 3 struvite stones quite by accident, when she got constipated when we first started raw. So she came into the raw diet with three stones in her. Normally the vet would have recommended surgery to remove them because even though they were small enough to only be seen on ultrasound, they were too large to just pass. But on the chance they were struvite, she suggested that now that we were feeding raw, we should see if the diet would dissolve them. And it DID. Of course, it turned them into sludge which we're working on flushing out with sub-q fluids. But she had a much heavier bone load than all of the other kitties, and still managed to dissolve those stones. :nod:

But you're keeping an eye on her urine pH.

 

[otto]

Thanks for the support Laurie. So Spooky is doing okay now? I don't think I ever saw a thread on her.

I haven't used the strips in quite a while actually. Mazy has trained me, or I have trained her, not sure which it is, but we both together make sure that I observe at least two out of her three pees a day.

If I go to scoop the boxes and don't see a Mazy pee in them, I can call her and she will come down, jump in the box and pee for me. If I haven't done that yet, and she has to pee, she will sit at the top of the stairs and wait to catch my eye and indicate with a nod of her head that she is going to go down to pee and I should follow her to see.

Of course there are times when I am not home, and she is able to pee without my prescence too. She is the only cat who pees right in the middle of the box so I always know her pees. Jennie and Queen Eva are side and corner pee-ers. They are easy to tell apart though, Jennie has big pees and Queen Eva has small pees. Mazy's are medium sized.

Anyway, I figure two meals a week of the bone in Stella&Chewy's duck and goose, with a small amount of my hard well water, should be okay. Maybe I can find some fresh or frozen duck locally sometime, now that I am actively looking for it. If I am only feeding it to Mazy cat, as part of her PMR, in a 6 day rotation, the price of it won't matter much, because it will last a long time. She can have it on the days the other two have beef. As it is, right now she gets an extra day of Cornish Hen on beef days.

My gosh, Queen Eva LOVES beef!

 

[vball91]

Otto, it is so great that your cats are doing so well on the raw you are introducing. I've been reading up on all the transitioning to raw threads since I've joined, and yours has been heartbreaking at times, especially Mazy's saga. I wish you much joy and success. I can tell how much you love these kitties and want what's best for them, no matter how hard that has been at times.

 

[otto]

Otto, it is so great that your cats are doing so well on the raw you are introducing. I've been reading up on all the transitioning to raw threads since I've joined, and yours has been heartbreaking at times, especially Mazy's saga. I wish you much joy and success. I can tell how much you love these kitties and want what's best for them, no matter how hard that has been at times.

Thank you so much for your kind words! You know I was reading my thread where I was asking about finding low phosphorous foods, you know the one, you posted in it recently? I started that thread a year ago, on January 23, 2012, when I was desperate to get Mazy off that c/d kibble, and I was still saying "raw is not an option at this time". And lo and behold there I was 8 months later, starting them on raw. Actually only 4 months, because I started Queen Eva on the Stella&Chewy's in May, but didn't start Mazy and Jennie (and Queen Eva too, of course) on the Rad Cat until September 1st.

It's really something isn't it? I don't think I could have done it without this forum. Oh I know there are other cat forums out there, and some have raw feeding sections. I've browsed many for several years, as I learned about raw feeding, but none are as supportive, helpful and comprehensive as the people in this one. The members here really pull together to help one another, and to share the joys in the triumphs and commiserate with the failures, always offering more encouragement and new ways to approach things.

Whew, I am sentimental tonight! Must be the weather! :lol3:

Anyway, your words mean a lot and I thank you for saying them. :rub:

 

[ldg]

Thanks for the support Laurie. So Spooky is doing okay now? I don't think I ever saw a thread on her.

I didn't ever start a thread specifically about it. :dk: I mentioned it here and there in my ginormous transition thread, and her situation gets discussed often in Angels Mommy's threads about Angels battle with crystals/cystitis.

Basically, it's been an ongoing battle. We were all so elated with we had the ultrasound recheck, and the stones were gone! The ultrasound did show some "residual sludge," and a urine sample showed some crystals, and her urine pH was something like 8.0. It wasn't overly concentrated. But at that point, the vet said that the struvite sludge itself raises the urine pH, and it becomes a cycle. So she suggested we use a urine acidifier (methionine). This is the amino acid in meat that makes a raw diet acidic, and naturally keeps their pH at 6.25 - 6.5 IF they don't have a pre-existing condition. At that time, her bladder wall was slightly inflamed. So we put her on pred for a month, Solgar 500mg methionine at each meal (3x a day), and I did a sub-q fluid flush, every other day (but just one bag). Everything seemed fine for a month or two - I continued to track her urine pH. And then it started climbing back up! So we did it all again. And the same thing happened. So we took her in for an ultrasound. This time there was no bladder wall inflammation, still no stones, but there was still some "sludge." So she's back on the methionine - no pred, as there's no inflammation - and now I'm giving her 100cc of fluid daily, and then I'll be giving her 100cc of fluid every other day. And this time I'll keep her on the methionine for several months (so long as it stays at 6.25 - 6.5. If it dips lower, obviously I'll adjust the dose). Basically (in terms of urine "acidification"), this is the equivalent of a prescription diet - only I get the flexibility of feeding her raw. I'm making more of an effort to feed her frankenpray with eggshell as the calcium source vs. bone-in ground meals in case that has contributed to the problem. But the vet is pretty confident that it is that sludge that just never got completely flushed out causing the repeating cycle, because she was basically on all ground (bone-in) when the diet dissolved the crystals without the acidifier. So after this round of two bags of fluids, we may take her in for another ultrasound, to see if it's all gone rather than just guessing. Not sure - two of the boys need dentals, Flowerbelle probably needs the endoscopy... and it all adds up.

But that's where things stand. Didn't mean to derail your thread.