Semi-feral? 1.5 year female slow intro to docile 8yo female = aggression persists (1-way)

[LeelooLOVE]

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, and say thank you as I've been reading these posts for the past month.

BACKGROUND on intro:
Adopted a female 1.5YO 1 day after spay surgery. The Shelter said she was fine with other cats, just NOT dogs.
Did a slow intro (1 mo) until she was comfortable with the house and resident cat was not freaked out or aggressive (unless provoked).
No open feeding, followed Galaxy slow cat intro steps.
After 1 mo. Fed across a closed French door (with windows), no hissing but some "fighting" and swatting underneath doors.

Interactions:
Resident cat - Toonie seems to have gained confidence and will hiss now only when attacked (for no reason)
New cat - Ripley hunts, stalks and gives chase and lays claws into Toonie whenever she can.
Ripley will not accept love, pets or very much physical comfort from me (I don't push it but love is offered). She allows my husband to pet and scratch her head. She greets him with affection, swipes, rolling on the ground and verbal hello - which is amazing. (He is minimally involved but happy to give love).
Cats are only in the same room with only supervised time, "together" time has increased with more frequent, successful (quiet naps in the same room). Supervised time does not go well in the morning, when Ripley is let out, so we keep them separated.

Fighting still persists with Ripley doing aggressive posturing (eyes dilated, tail puffs, stiff upright body, ears back). I'm spending a small fortune on calm collars, diffusers, sprays, etc.

We are at the 7 week mark now. Ripley goes into her room to nap and in the evenings, Toonie stays in the office with me during the day. Multiple play times with Ripley following: chase, catch, kill, eat....you know the drill. :-) I'm trying to let Ripley have the main house to roam during the day as I noticed she paws at the bedroom where she sleeps so much her little pads are raw! Toonie has come into Ripley's room in a curious, non-aggressive posture and Ripley allowed but then attacked. Ripley will walk confidently around, tail up but she often regresses to tail down, head down posture when roaming. I offer opportunities for Ripley and Toonie to interact a few times as I'm able during breaks from my call schedule (I work from home).

Aggression:
Ripley has torn into my legs, hands and arms and I'm labeling as misdirected aggression and/or previous trauma (not sure if it is because I'm a female and she had bad experience w/someone?). I offer kickers, toys and other things to keep her from tearing into my legs and to distract from attacking Toonie. I've got several deep scratches (bloody) and a few bruises on my legs from her repeated attacks.
Previously, she had refused to take treats and was hissing and batting my hands but now she will eat treats from my hands with only the occasional swat and hiss. I count this as a small victory.

I called our vet and they suggested the Feliway pheromones for her attacks/aggression. I told them I was already doing this and they basically were like, "well that sucks, good luck." I specifically asked if they would recommend medication to help with the transition due to her aggression. NOPE.

TODAY: Toonie walked over, slowly with tail up and did her signature flop right in front of Ripley. I took this as a sign of friendship and open offer from Toonie to Ripley to play as Toonie's belly was exposed and this is her move to say, "come pet/love on me!" Ripley responded with a swat and hiss. We moved into the main part of the house (both cats naturally will follow me, together or separate), where Toonie walked slowly over and tried again to walk slowly by (tail up). Ripley "rode" Toonie back into the office, clawing at her rear, repeatedly. I yelled (my mistake) as I didn't have pot or cardboard handy and they had run away before I could intervene.

Ripley's attacks come out of nowhere, or sometimes they progressively build. She is best from 1-6PM (from what I've observed). She will attack Toonie when she is napping, sleeping, relaxing or walking/running. Many times, Ripley will slowly walk up to Toonie posturing aggressively, Toonie will usually hiss at this point as a warning and Ripley attacks. They both bear scratches from the other now (nails are trimmed).

I've got a cat tree coming for Ripley (she will not use the current tree as I guess she sees that as Toonie's territory). I'm hoping this will help with her confidence. She does appear comfortable in the house and around us the majority of the time. There are window seats for her in the living room and she will occasionally get on the couch and nap.

I know this is early but my husband is concerned for Toonie. Is this a confidence issue that can be overcome? Do I look into getting a cat condo for the living room? The whole point was to get Toonie a friend, not an in-home combatant.

I have only introduced kitten to adult cat, never adult to adult (my mistake). Have had cats for decades. We are concerned that Toonie's quality of life (super sweet, lap cat, cuddle buddy and previous foster cat/shelter rescue) may suffer. It is hard because I cannot give love as Ripley will not (yet) accept it.

Thanks in advance for any guidance/suggestions or feedback

LeelooLOVE (R.I.P. Leeloo, the most perfect being and cat)

 

[ArtNJ]

Its clear that you have cat experience, but I'm wondering if you might be wrong that this is hostile aggression, and not a 1.5 y.o. that wants to play and doesn't give a hoot if the older one does? Because with no hissing by the "aggressor", an instigating cat this young, a resident cat with no wounds that isn't acting terrified of the new cat, adding all that up, aggressive play would be my best guess. Indeed, I'd be almost certain if you weren't a long time owner, but a playfully aggressive young adult cat is a strange kind of thing if you haven't seen a cat of this age interact with a reluctant partner before. At this age, they have maximum energy and desire to play aggressively, maximum disregard for another cat's desire to play, fear and personal space -- all that is super common for cats of this age. Like kittens, cats below two can be, well, in human terms, they can frequently be jerks about wanting to play-play-play.

I suggest taking a video for us. Because if the cat-to-cat interaction is aggressive play, our advice will be different than if it was true aggression.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Yes, please, video. Also be aware that you are dealing with two females, and females are more territorial than males (gots to have that safe place to rear kittens...that's instinctive, even if spayed), and 7 weeks isn't THAT long for a female-female introduction. But we do need the video.

 

[LeelooLOVE]

I've got movie files of the fights and it will not allow me to attach an MP4 or .MOV file.

Thank you both for your comments. I had a whole reply written and it was wiped as I tried fiddling with the files. The short story is we have seen rough play and this doesn't resemble it as both cats have previously been injured by the other and my legs have several gashes/cuts.

I'm not sure if Ripley doesn't know that this is "attacking" and maybe wasn't taught the proper way to play?

Video that I want to upload shows Ripley chasing Toonie into office, Toonie drinks and Ripley attacks with claws, fur raised/hackles up - chase ensues and Toonie is cornered and starts to growl. Ripley hisses as does Toonie. Basically, the majority of the time Toonie goes anywhere, Ripley follows and attacks/swats - growling or hissing in some instances. Toonie seems tolerant to a certain extent but fights back or tries to run away to avoid the hits.

Not sure what the issue is with the video but this is something I'll try and troubleshoot later today. I'm bummed the file won't work.

They have had 2 days of naps in the same room - afternoon and early evening seem to work best.

Ripley is the skinny one (she was VERY skinny when we adopted her and also chews/eats toys like a dog - I'm wondering if it is a pico issue?)
Toonie is in the tunnel (she probably weighs double what Ripley does)
Pic of shared nap time - Ripley in foreground, Toonie on cat tree in background.

Thank you again for your help and time. :-)

 

[LeelooLOVE]

And of course, when I say it doesn't seem like rough play - I realize I may just be out of practice and you seeing a video will help greatly. :-)

 

[LeelooLOVE]

Figured out I need to post videos within the site.

 

[LeelooLOVE]

Yes, please, video. Also be aware that you are dealing with two females, and females are more territorial than males (gots to have that safe place to rear kittens...that's instinctive, even if spayed), and 7 weeks isn't THAT long for a female-female introduction. But we do need the video.

Thank you again. I've posted the videos. Would you mind letting me know if you can access or have any issues seeing them?

 

[ArtNJ]

I couldn't watch the whole second one, and I didn't have sound. That said, first one looked like a lot of nothing to me, but the second, the part I saw, I don't know that I've seen that type of swatting of a fleeing cat with play. From rereading your posts, with Ripley (the instigator) hissing, actual injuries, and Ripley being the one to attack you via redirected aggression (you don't get redirected aggression if a cat isn't stressed, meaning that the instigator is stressed) it sounds a lot like a genuine problem yes.

The traditional remedy if you have fighting after an introduction period is to go back and do a reintroduction. I'd wait and see if Mamanyt1953 or someone else can watch both videos with sound, but it does sound like you might have to go that route. (I apologize if I didn't read carefully enough on the first go round -- I think I missed the fact that the instigator was hissing, and the instigator was the one with the redirected aggression on your legs.)

Since you mentioned spending a lot of money, be aware there is no scientific evidence that feliway works, and anecdotally, some people say yes, some say no, which is just what you would expect from random chance. Its almost the same situation as cough syrup -- everyone gives their kids cough syrup too, and its 100% clear that does nothing beyond a placebo. Feliway, ulikely cough syrup, hasn't been proven to do nothing, the studies have been to small to do that, but no real reason to spend the money came out of them, thats for sure. Honestly,I know no one cares about the lack of evidence and am not sure why I keep mentioning it, but you did imply you are feeling the cost.

 

[LeelooLOVE]

I couldn't watch the whole second one, and I didn't have sound. That said, first one looked like a lot of nothing to me, but the second, the part I saw, I don't know that I've seen that type of swatting of a fleeing cat with play. From rereading your posts, with Ripley (the instigator) hissing, actual injuries, and Ripley being the one to attack you via redirected aggression (you don't get redirected aggression if a cat isn't stressed, meaning that the instigator is stressed) it sounds a lot like a genuine problem yes.

The traditional remedy if you have fighting after an introduction period is to go back and do a reintroduction. I'd wait and see if Mamanyt1953 or someone else can watch both videos with sound, but it does sound like you might have to go that route. (I apologize if I didn't read carefully enough on the first go round -- I think I missed the fact that the instigator was hissing, and the instigator was the one with the redirected aggression on your legs.)

Since you mentioned spending a lot of money, be aware there is no scientific evidence that feliway works, and anecdotally, some people say yes, some say no, which is just what you would expect from random chance. Its almost the same situation as cough syrup -- everyone gives their kids cough syrup too, and its 100% clear that does nothing beyond a placebo. Feliway, ulikely cough syrup, hasn't been proven to do nothing, the studies have been to small to do that, but no real reason to spend the money came out of them, thats for sure. Honestly,I know no one cares about the lack of evidence and am not sure why I keep mentioning it, but you did imply you are feeling the cost.

Very helpful, thank you again. I agree with the lack of evidence Re: Feliway and honestly I've just been throwing as much as I could toward the effort of making both feel as comfortable/secure as possible. I've started to notice that Ripley is keenly interested in sniffing Toonie but also going for her face. I think I'll go the route of re-introduction and see how that goes.

One other thought I had was that Toonie - who sneezes and suffers from the herpes virus/stuffy nose, etc. I wondered if Ripley could be sensing this as a weakness, along with Toonie being non-alpha? There have been some gains in the amount of time where both are in the same room with no attacks or negative interactions but that is interspersed with Ripley continuing to instigate (hiss, chase, hackles/claws and today biting the end of Toonie's tail).

I will let you know how this goes and will look to get some better (right side up) videos this weekend.

 

[ArtNJ]

I don't know? It seems like when a new cat fights with a resident its usually fear-based, but you definitely do sometimes get territorial aggression with cats. I'm not sure there is pure dominance based aggression in cats -- I think I read a behavioralist that said that isnt a real thing in cats. So if one cat guards the food dish, for example, that is territorial aggression not dominance based. One time I had a weird one where a playful young cat just couldn't deal with being hissed at and would get rev'd up to fight immediately even if the hisser was just scared. No idea what to call that one, since it wasn't fear, territory or dominance -- more like Irish fighting spirit ha. Anyways, with newly introduced cats I think its almost always fear/stress related, but there are definitely weird variants and it seems like you are saying the aggressor sometimes seems pretty chill with the new cat, who never instigates. So that doesn't necessarily sound like fear or stress right? One possibility, because its a common thing, and because you are kind of describing something that flares up now and then (?) is redirected aggression, where something the young cat is smelling or hearing is scaring him, leading him to take it out on the nearby older cat. Other than that, I don't know.

 

[Furballsmom]

They're gorgeous cats!

both cats naturally will follow me, together or separate

I don't think Ripley was abused or is semi-feral, which is based on the fact that there was no reaction at all to you coming up from behind and appearing rather suddenly in the first video, and this. A fearful cat won't follow a human like this

I'm not sure if Ripley doesn't know that this is "attacking" and maybe wasn't taught the proper way to play?

I think it is this, that Ripley doesn't know/care about how Toonie and you perceive things -- except Ripley cares a lot in the second video, because I swear that looked for all the world to me like a frustrated "wait, stop, don't go! I wanna play!" swat.

Have you tried a big, loud sibilant HISS, a really loud clap, a loud NO, a metal can half filled with coins shaken really hard when she's going for your legs, --every single time?

From what I'm seeing in those videos, this isn't an aggressive cat. I think what you have is a super energetic cat that doesn't know better, maybe didn't have siblings or a mama to teach proper behavior and even if she did, she's too full of spunk/vinegar and fire to handle her own energy (think a little bit bengal). Have you considered claw caps?

Can your husband take her for walks? Can you try clicker training? Do you have a fishing-rod type of toy? A laser pointer to help wear her out? Have you tried a treat ball for its entertainment value?

I have a big list of calming products I could post on the chance I have something you've not tried yet, but what I really think is that Ripley needs a ton of both mental and physical exercise.

Also, if you're detecting that Toonie is getting stressed, try some cat music - there's Spotify, Youtube, RelaxMyCat and MusicForCats as sources.

Anyway, although every cat is different and Ripley is a cat with some individual characteristics, just in case there's something here;
How To Help An Abused Cat Recover – TheCatSite Articles

and these might be helpful
Are My Cats Fighting Or Playing? – TheCatSite Articles

Why Do Cats Attack? – TheCatSite Articles

Harness And Leash Training For Cats – TheCatSite Articles

How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction – TheCatSite Articles

How To Set Healthy Boundaries For Your Cat – TheCatSite Articles

 

[LeelooLOVE]

Thank you all again for great advice and for your insight. I have catnip toys, wands, laser, 4 crunchy tunnels she can hide in and shoot through when I play with her, boxes, packing paper, multiple cat beds and knitted mats, window seats, treat ball, digger toy that I hide treats in for Ripley when she is sent to her room for the evening. I've made pom poms from yarn and several different types of toys for her, which I rotate so she doesn't get bored.

---Did I mention she eats many of her toys so I have to keep an eye on them so she doesn't chew and swallow bits?

To correct the biting, I have a whistle, and a kicker toy I provide as an option to flesh. I've tried "NO!" and banging pots, and clapping. I've even hissed loudly like a mountain lion and that just confused everyone. I'll look into getting a clicker. I've rewarded clam, good behavior between the two with dehydrated minnows. It seems almost minutes after they are rewarded for good behavior w/treats that Ripley decides, "it is GO time!"

She bit my arms a few times yesterday and I saw her do this to my husband several times this morning and it was clearly, "hey, play with me/pet me more!" I was very surprised that after she bit my hands yesterday and I said, "NO!" she came back over and licked me a few times (as if to say, sorry).

I'm waiting on another cat tree and I'm hoping that gives her some confidence too. I'll look into walking her but she barely lets me touch her, let alone put a harness on. As for nail trims, we are swaddling her and offering her treats the whole time to associate the routine as positive. I also started to notice her kicking her own arms with her back feet to entertain. I took a video and will upload.

We played for a while this morning. i'm trying to do multiple 10-20 minute sessions a day, if I can. I'll read the articles in the links you provided for how to help her.

Thank you again and I'll keep you posted.

 

[Furballsmom]

she came back over and licked me a few times (as if to say, sorry).

Awww, babycat!

Maybe your husband could walk her?

I assuming you have kickaroo toys too?

This seems so similar, the overconfidence, super overly energetic, almost pushy attitude...
Can I stop my cat from biting so hard / help with a high-energy cat!

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Well...I didn't get sound, either. HOWEVER...this is an issue, but perhaps not a desperate one. Between A ArtNJ and Furballsmom , you've gotten the advice I'd have given you. The fact that they both sleep in the same room (even if at a bit of distance) tells me that there is something here to work with, and that this isn't a hopeless case, by any means! I'll continue to ponder this.