Sebastian is Back at the Vet...Suspected Pancreatitis Again :(

[ldg]

GH, I'm so sorry Sebastian's not eating and not feeling well.

If this was my cat I would buy a tub of Rad Cat turkey and put him on it. Remove him from all other foods. Wouldn't even do a slow transition. It would be pah-pay-poof as we say in Brazil. And if he stopped eating, yep, I would syringe feed that too. But I would be done with commercial. To me, food is getting toxic for this kitty, and I would take anything toxic from his system... But that's me....
Good job on taking the plunge, all the best to you and Seb.

No big surprise here - I agree. Though I don't think the bone broth to settle things down would hurt. I'd be finding a turkey leg - is there a Whole Foods near you? Hell, I'd even use pork bones or something at this point.

His up and down appetite is related to the food change attempts, clearly - but if the food he was eating was helping him, he wouldn't be having such severe reactions to healthier food. His former comfort foods provide nutrition, but mask the ongoing problems - which get uncovered each time you try something new, IMO.

The difference? Carolina and I have seen this numerous times now (and obviously she experienced a complete turn-around with Bugsy). You've only seen Sebastian react poorly to the new food - but you've never kept going.

With the experiences I've had working with others with IBD kitties at this point, I'd be using cypro (along with the cerenia and pepcid) and syringe feeding if necessary.

The way I see it is like have a child with severe allergies. I've found a box of decent mac n cheese and a canned stew that doesn't cause her to feel ill - but I know it isn't particularly healthy food. I know that if I feed her salad, fresh fruits and veggies, this will likely contribute to majorly improving her immune system function so it stops going insane - though she may remain sensitive to many things - but it will contribute to her overall quality of life. But when I give her the fruits and veggies, it makes her feel ill at first. Do I settle for what makes her feel OK, but isn't overly healthy in the long run? Or do I do what I can to make her comfortable, but feed her the food that will help her body long term even though her body reacts to it short term?

I know the concept that wet/raw are all better than dry. But if the cat will not eat enough wet etc., then personally I don't see any harm if offering some dry. As you know, many of my senior cats have issues yet they adore dry kibble. I've transitioned to lots of wet food, but they just won't eat enough to hold weight and how can I expect a sick senior cat to change their ways. So my compromise is 3 wet meals throughout the day, with a rationed amount of dry kibble overnight. It seems to be working and I am comfortable with my decision. I am afraid that I fall under the group of people who thinks that eating enough is better than not eating enough and wasting away.

I agree - I fall under the group of people who thinks that eating enough is better than not eating enough and wasting away - IF we're dealing with a terminal illness or disease where the damage has already been done and is pretty far progressed, like CRF.

But if kitty can have an improved quality of life by basically forcing the change... at this point in my pet owning life, I force the change if kitty isn't cooperative about it. I've been in the "just eat" camp, and almost lost Lazlo to lymphoma. Nope - I'll use syringe feeding and drugs to get where they need to be.

 

[goholistic]

Last night he ate only 1/4 of a can (after three hours of coaxing). I did offer him some of the RC dry rabbit, but he took two pieces and walked away, so I guess that won't work as a topper. I gave him fluids again as well (vet said it is okay to do a few days in a row as long as they are being absorbed).

This morning I mixed the two foods (Hound & Gatos rabbit with Royal Canin rabbit) and he ended up eating a total of 1/2 of a 5.5 oz can. Thanks for the tip! He was still a little hesitant. It was like he was trying to sniff out the RC, but he couldn't because I mixed it together too well. He seemed to feel better this morning. He lay on my chest as he likes to do when he hears my alarm go off and he was drooling (because he was happy). He was the first one up and the first one to follow me downstairs into the kitchen, so that is a good sign. He ate okay and he did not have Cerenia yesterday or today (his two-day break). Sebastian seems (I hope) to be coming back around and his stools are slowly firming up again. I've continued the high dose of probiotics (35 billion CFUs divided between AM and PM).

His up and down appetite is related to the food change attempts, clearly - but if the food he was eating was helping him, he wouldn't be having such severe reactions to healthier food. His former comfort foods provide nutrition, but mask the ongoing problems - which get uncovered each time you try something new, IMO.

The difference? Carolina and I have seen this numerous times now (and obviously she experienced a complete turn-around with Bugsy). You've only seen Sebastian react poorly to the new food - but you've never kept going.

His "pickiness" has been going on for a few weeks now (since the end of January) before any changes to food were made. The dramatic change in foods is pretty recent and I introduced the raw first since he wasn't eating the RC.

I'm not sure I understand this logic. Sebastian became very ill 36-48 hours after giving him raw. He had explosive diarrhea, anorexia for the next 48 hours, very lethargic and hiding in his sick spots. Everything I read said that this is absolutely not normal on raw and to discontinue and call the vet. So I did. I called the holistic vet (who suggested the raw diet) and she also said that this behavior is not normal. Diarrhea, yes...as long as they are still happy and have an appetite. Surely I would have continued if the only problem was diarrhea. I've also been reading that raw doesn't always agree with every cat.

Dr. Hofve mentions it here: http://blog.onlynaturalpet.com/2010/10/14/raw-meat-pet-diet-risks-and-benefits-by-dr-jean-hofve/

However, raw diets aren’t for every pet. Animals with inflammatory conditions of the gut, and those taking immune-suppressing drugs, should not be fed raw meat until their systems have time to heal.

Not sure if Sebastian's system is "healed". 

  I've been looking into l-glutamine to help with this.

And Dr. Shawn mentions it here: http://www.petcarenaturally.com/handouts/raw-food-diets.pdf

Healthy pets may be relatively resistant to developing disease associated with contamination of foods with bacteria. However, many of our pet animals have health problems and may be susceptible to infection by disease-causing strains of bacteria.

But you're right...I didn't keep going with the raw. Not when the experience was clearly out of the norm and potentially a problem. He's already on an appetite stimulant as needed, Cerenia and Pepcid. He was not well, even with his "comfort" meds. Using your example as it relates to Sebastian, I'm not sure I would continue to force-feed a child fruits and veggies if she was having explosive diarrhea, not moving, and not eating anything for days. I would at least offer saltines and ginger ale.  

  I'm not looking for excuses not to feed raw and I'm absolutely not disregarding the advice I've been given. I am so grateful for all the advice and everyone sharing their knowledge and experiences, so I just want to make that clear. 

  I will consider trying raw again using the recommendations LDG gave in my "diarrhea" thread on the raw forum to use a "bland" raw recipe. I have everything I need to do this. For all we know, it'll be the stupid eggs that were the problem!  

  But it's not like I'm currently feeding him an all dry diet of Alley Cat or something. I've come across several comments online where people claim that Hound & Gatos canned food has helped their IBD cat, and the cans are supposedly BPA free. 

I agree - I fall under the group of people who thinks that eating enough is better than not eating enough and wasting away - IF we're dealing with a terminal illness or disease where the damage has already been done and is pretty far progressed, like CRF.

We don't really know how much damage there is to Sebastian's GI tract. It could be worse than we thought. I still believe (and our vet thinks it is possible) he has the less common neutrophilic IBD, which is an overgrowth of bacteria that activates neutrophil production and causes inflammation. From what I've read, this can become permanent. His flares always show elevated neutrophils, which isn't as common as other WBCs associated with IBD. There is very little information about this.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/dig...lammatory_bowel_disease_in_small_animals.html

 A neutrophilic predominance in the inflammatory infiltrate is rare.

All I am saying is that I have to be careful with the one-size-fits-all approach. Every cat is different. (Remember how the krill oil made Boo vomit?) Raw isn't a cure-all and doesn't always work for all cats. Lisa (@finnlacey) talks about this on her raw food page: http://ibdkitties.net/Aboutraw.html   I'd love to get her input if she's still following! 

  I do agree that a raw diet IS the most optimal diet for healthy pets.

Many thanks to all of you for your continued support. 

 

[gcat]

 All I can offer is my continued support. Big kitty hugs to Sebastian and I'm so sorry you are going through this. The good news is that he ate a little and that his diarrhea is getting a little better.

 

 

[scarlett 001]

Good luck with everything. This sounds very trying.

Is he actually losing weight right now at any concerning rate?

Maybe I am not determined enough with my cats and what they eat. If they were younger and healthy, I'd be more adamant when attempting to make a complete diet change. But I don't want to make their lives miserable by forcing things on them that just stress and upset them. So I am in the midst of finding a balance that works for me and for them - much more increased wet food consumption, limited ration of dry overnight. I think that this allows them to have a balance of mediating their issues, but without stressing them and detracting from their quality of life. I guess each of us has to make their own decision about how to manage this kind of balancing act. There are no absolute right and wrongs. We just have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of different options and make our decisions.

 

[finnlacey]

Hoo boy! I'm entering a bees nest with this issue I think. LOL. Okay these are my opinions only based on my research and experience so please no one jump down my throat! Yes, I do believe raw is the optimal diet. No, I don't believe every cat does well on it, especially when something like bacterial overgrowth is present, it can sometimes cause severe issues. I'm sorry but I've seen it. No, I don't personally believe that just removing a kitty's diet and syringe feeding them raw is the answer. I don't believe in that kind of quick switch approach as I've seen way too many kitties have serious problems from doing that. I believe in doing what you have to do to stabilize them first before the damage becomes too severe and when they are stable, you can raw again. Maybe it's the kind of raw, maybe it's too many changes at once along with the bacterial overgrowth (which is NASTY btw). Yes, I would most definitely rather see diet help over medications but I would not hesitate to give my kitty meds when they are that sick to get them where they need to be first. I took care of both of my sister's IBD cats. They were incredibly skinny and wasting away. I fed them raw first and they did very well on it for a long time, it did wonders. However, the damage was already done and Moufasa had a tumor in his stomach that we didn't know about and he passed. Midnight continued on raw for a long time until she developed severe FLUTD and severe IBD. The raw made things worse continuously to the point where we had to stop and put her on pred and other meds. She also began to refuse it as well and what was most important to us was that she eat and be comfortable in her remaining time. She lived another two years with a great quality of life. There is absolutely no way to tell how they are going to react and why. To me, the most important thing is quality of life and to try the natural things if you're able to first without waiting too long to try something else. It's a delicate balancing act. 

There are too many factors that cause IBD and diet is only one of them. Vaccinations, parasites, genetics, other diseases that cause inflammation that lead to IBD. etc. And I saw something about L-glutamine which I would be careful about as it can be good for IBD but it feeds cancer cells. So I don't recommend even trying it in my opinion as a lot of the time we don't know if lymphoma is present underneath all of that: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/9/2539S.full. anyway, I don't want to carry on too long. I am someone who walks the line in the middle. I've seen kitties suddenly become stable overnight on raw, and some that have eaten raw all of their lives and still get severe IBD and pancreatitis. There is no logic to this disease. not in my almost 8 years now of dealing with this. 

 After treating and losing three kitties to it, it's enough to make you lose your marbles. 

 

[marshmallow2013]

I've been following your Sebastian's story from the beginning.  I'm sorry you're dealing with so much.  

Lots of love and hugs to you and your sweet boy.  

Wishing you

from me and Mittens

 

[goholistic]

@GCat and @Marshmallow2013, thank you for the support. We appreciate the vibes!

@Scarlett 001, I don't think he is losing weight at any particular rate. I'm sure he's lost a few ounces since he wasn't/isn't eating as much. But then again, he is a long-haired kitty, so it's hard to tell. I really need to get a baby scale or something. I could take him in to the vet at any time to be weighed for free, but the drive alone would stress him out.

@finnlacey, thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts. You've dealt with this much longer than I have. I did not know that l-glutamine feeds cancer cells. I have read mixed reviews, so I think I'll skip this one. And, yes, sometimes I think I am losing my marbles! It's nice to know I am not alone in that respect! 

 

[finnlacey]

you are DEFINITELY not alone! So sorry you have to deal with this. 

 

[carolina]

Well.... Sadly.... As I see, there are two options when it comes to IBD in cats: the traditional drugs/prescription food, or anti-allergenic foods we see all the time: metro, pred, amforol, sufasalazine.... Some more extreme cases get depo, some chemo....
Treatments vary with the cats, of course.
Or, you go the natural way- you tackle the source of the problem, the inflammation with a natural diet, raw, trying to get the kitties immune-system balanced.
Personally, I see over and over again cats getting trapped on the traditional treatments and only getting worse.
I don't see kitties getting better often, if ever.
I see too often a vicious cycle of pain, suffering and, very sorry to say, death.
Too many cats are lost to lymphoma. Too many cats are lost to uncontrollable IBD, lost in this vicious drugs and prescription food cycle.
On the flipside, I have seen many cats getting better and better once they leave this cycle and go into a natural diet.
Why? Because now they are not battling an upside battle.
What is pred doing? Pred in taking care of an inflammation. But what is inflamed? The digestive system. And what is causing that inflammation? FOOD. If you remove the cause for that inflammation, there will not be the need for pred. There will not be an uphill battle to fight.
Pred, antibiotics.... In the end... It is all pushing back symptoms.... But you are not taking care of the root of the problem.
Issue is, it comes with a price.
It comes with side effects. It comes with organ failures. It comes with diabetes. And most of all, the inflammation is still there, fighting the little battle, until it wakes up like a beast.
Bugsy was on this path.
He took it all. His liver started failing. He would be dead if not for raw.
He is healthy and medication free.
In between a harsh chemical that can come with serious side effects and that most of all is not working.... And a natural diet that has been for thousands of years the natural diet of the cat.... I am glad I finally made the choice. It saved my baby.

 

[finnlacey]

I'm only going to say one thing and then I'm out. NOTHING about IBD or any of these gastrointestinal diseases are as black and white as this. Nothing. It's just not that easy and that's all there is to it. I don't understand why people should have to choose between two different roads when it comes to treating their animals. Traditional and Eastern medicine both have their places and that includes the role of food and diet. No one ever said that medication was the answer, including myself. But I am absolutely not lying when I've stated over and over and over until I'm blue that one size doesn't fit all. If it were as easy as this, IBD would be eradicated by now and it's far from it. It's worse than ever.

I cannot make this any clearer. Food is NOT the only source of inflammation in IBD!! It's NOT. There are MANY, MANY CAUSES. Parasites, infections, vaccinations, genetics, environmental toxins, the list goes on. Food is not the only source of inflammation in the GI tract in cats, dogs or in people. Again, I am ALL FOR a raw diet! I never once said I'm against it. If someone's kitty can be helped by a purely raw diet, I am the first to shout hurray! But if it were the be all end all answer to this then why do cats that have been on a raw diet their entire lives still develop IBD? Why?! Because there are many other factors involved. nothing is black and white. I've been doing this a long, long time and I am the first to admit I don't have all the answers. And that's the way I like it. I don't claim to understand the beast that is this disease. Not even the brightest minds at the best universities understand it. It is a complex, frustrating, complicated set of conditions that there is no one easy fix for. And because of that, my mind is wide open. 

 

[ldg]

Lisa, no one is saying raw is all it takes to help IBD. But it is exactly because it is complicated that some of us feel strongly that the dietary sources of inflammation be eliminated is an important starting point.

When flares arise once on that diet, then probiotics, or herbals (I'm thinking slippery elm), or meds should be explored. Sometimes a bland diet of bone broth can give a stressed system rest. But I would simply never argue that TV dinners or canned stew (each of which are made from ingredients superior to what goes into 99% of cat foods) is better for a sick person (no matter what the illness) than less processed homemade meals.

Gut flora has been definitively linked to IBD. So how do you know "raw" was the problem when, as you say, your kitty had an IBD flare while on the diet? Stress can impact the balance of gut flora, it could be that simple. Or not. As you say, there are many potential factors.

All I know is that commercial cat food quality foods aren't a particularly healthy option and meds do not address the problem, they suppress it.

It's merely a question of approach.

 

[peaches08]

I remember reading once about cooked rice or veggies (ie squash) to slow down digestion, I wonder if that would help Sebastian? I'd still probably omit the egg for a while and reintroduce them later.

 

[carolina]

raw might not be a cure for all, it is the most beneficial change, the change that seems to show the highest impact for a cat with IBD. Therefore, why not be the the first? It might be the only one needed? Silly to think it is usually the last, until the cat is pretty much on the deaths door.
Lisa.... You say you have an open mind... I appreciate that...
A look around your Facebook page vs a simple Google search for raw feeding for IBD cats will illustrate my train of thought.

 

[donnajean]

I too have a 3 1/2 year old male with Probable IBD and he is currently on Royal Canin Hypoallergenic Duck & Pea.. I also give him some Natural Balance LID Duck & Pea dry.

We have gone through one time the DX of Pancreatitis, several months back which led to the Dx of probable IBD.

It seems like though the Pancreatitis came on a month after he was on Prednisone, same issue of a UTI a month after being on Prednisone, coincedence (Sp?), perhaps...

In order to heal his Mucosal lining I started researching and came up with two possibilities, L-Glutamine or N-Acetyl Glucosamine. I went with the N-Acetyl Glucosamine

I purchased this product online, by Nutri Cology  and also bought size 3 extra small empty capsules by "Now"..

The dosage of these capsules I could only find in 500 mg so I had to cut them down to a dosage of 125 mg.

I gave him one dose a day but on the second day noticed he was scratching and to me that was a warning that perhaps he could not tolerate this supplement.

I backed off and am going to cut the dosage a little lower and try again in a week or so. This time I am going to fill up a syringe with water twice to the 2.5 ml, open the whole capsule , mix it up and start out at 0.5 ml for awhile and see if this agrees with him. Do some research on N-acetyl Glucosamine for cats and come up with your own conclusion...

With the ok from my vet, Boo has been on CurcuVet - SA50  Thorne Research Animal Health now for about 10 days with no issues.

It supports the liver, musculoskeletal and the GI tract., It is Curcumin Phytosome / phosphatidylcholine complex. Because of the inactive ingredients , which I am assuming are in the capsule I use the "Now" empty capsules and have only been giving him half the dosage and am going to increase in about two weeks or so....

This supplement helps with the inflammatory process and information can be found on Thorne research website....

Due to the Diarrhea Boo had because of the UTI and using Antibiotics (Clavamox), vet suggested Fortiflora, took a little while but his stools are back to normal and he loves the Fortiflora, it actually enhances the aroma of the food and he eats more... I am not the biggest fan of Fortiflora but it does work.(at least for Boo) I read that cats with IBD should not have any probiotics with Prebiotics in them, don't really know what evidence really proves this so before the Fortiflora I was giving Dr. Mercolas Pet probiotic without any issues and continue to give it to my Cystitis cat Spook (another story)

For right now , even though I detest prescription meds, Boo is on Elavil, 1/4 tab in the evening, it has helped alot with his anxiety, nervousness which is not good for cats with IBD .

An hour after giving this med he is chowing down, then he settles down for the night ...

I looked at other options, however there is something in Colostrum that he can't tolerate, so that is out, tried Bach Rescue remedy, does not work, have a Feliway diffuser, can't say it works or not to a point.

Just wanted to pop in and let you know that I understand the stress that you are under and am hoping with this unpredictable disease that things even out for Seb and you both have better days...

 

[scarlett 001]

I was just popping on to ask if he is doing any better today??

 

[roxie]

GoHolistic, I haven't been on in a while. Had to do a lot of reading to catch up! I hope Sebastian is feeling better. If I were dealing with your situation, I would have already went stark raving mad! Hugs and prayers for you and Sebastian.

 

[gcat]

How's our little man doing today? 

 

 

[k malachi james]

My Mama and I are praying for Sebastian.  We hope he comes through this alright.  Wishes for a blessed day!

 

[peaches08]

I've checked every day for an update; I'm hoping he's better.

 

[ldg]

Thinking of you and Sebastian. And Boo. And Caesar. :heart2: