Sebastian is Back at the Vet...Suspected Pancreatitis Again :(

[goholistic]

Sebastian is having explosive, liquid diarrhea. Pure liquid. He clearly doesn't feel well because he is sitting in all his "sick spots" in the house. Right now he's hiding under the bed. This is not good. He is not a hider. And he's not eating.

WTH

Since I've had Sebastian, he has rarely had diarrhea. Is the raw doing this? If so, what incentive do I have to keep offering it to him? This is ridiculous. I'm sure you can sense my frustration. When Carolina's Bugsy reacted to raw, was it this bad? Of course, I don't know for sure that the raw is doing this, but I do know that he didn't have diarrhea two days ago. However, he wasn't feeling all the great prior to the raw, so I don't even know anymore.

I don't know what to do. Even if he wants to eat, I figured I'd fast him for 12 hours and then offer him what he was on previously. I've doubled his probiotic.

I phoned the vet earlier today (this was before I knew the diarrhea was explosive), and she's not in until Thursday. She WILL blame the raw rabbit for this...no doubt in my mind.

 

[goholistic]

 

 I'm so sorry for what you and Sebastian are going through. He seems like such a tough boy and I'm sure you both can weather through this. 

The diarrhea may be from the canned rabbit.  It must have slid through his system if it looks undigested. At least he’s still urinating- that eliminates a whole host of possible issues. I know this is only a temporary solution, but maybe purchasing some laxatives (like plain Metamucil) would help with the diarrhea (for now)?

A vet visit to get an ultrasound for him would probably be in order at this point. Then you can figure out what is going on in his system.

Other than that, I have no other advice to offer but lots and lots of positive vibes, prayers, and crossed fingers for your precious baby. Go Sebastian, you can do it!

 

Thanks for the support. Sebastian has been on this same canned rabbit diet since September with no major diarrhea issues. He may have had slightly soft stools when I first switched him over to this food, but it was nothing like this. I don't think laxatives would help. They usually soften stools. We've already had a lot of tests done, including x-rays and multiple ultrasounds. We do know that he has chronic pancreatitis (confirmed). IBD is highly suspected, but no biopsy was done. The vet has said that this is something we'll have to learn to manage at home. If he gets really bad, then I have to bring him in for hospitalization. 

  I guess what we don't know right now is if this is an inflammation flare or just an upset tummy. 

 

[peaches08]

Gosh I'm sorry! Is this rabbit with bone or egg shells?

OK, I see it's not bone...can he have chicken? I see chicken stuff in the rabbit recipe you're using.

ETA again, I see where you subbed rabbit organs. Yikes, I just need to go to bed and let experts weigh in.

 

[cprcheetah]

Oh no!  So sorry he is having a setback.  DeeJay had one last week, it was not fun.  As for the diarrhea, fasting can help.  It could be a combo of things, could be the raw, could be he was already heading that direction.  I am too new to raw in cats to have much to offer as far as the way of advice but just offer my support.

 

[goholistic]

No worries, @peaches08. I appreciate you asking the questions.

Sebastian had about four a** explosions in the litter box last night. Poor Bastie.  

  He's a long-haired cat, so it was a mess. I may have to give his butt a trim. He didn't go again this morning. Last night I gave him what I had left of Luxolite (supposed to help firm stools and bind toxins) along with the probiotic. I also gave him sub-q fluids, as I'm sure the diarrhea is making him dehydrated. He's still not eating (it's now been 36 hours), but he seemed to be feeling a little better this morning. He came down into the kitchen. I tried to offer him a few kernels of dry food. He sniffed and walked away. He continued to look up at me and meow as though he was [sort of] hungry. With EXTREME reluctance, I offered him a small dime-sized dollop of raw rabbit. He ate it right up and wanted more, but I didn't give him more. If the Luxolite helps, then I should get more of that, but I'd have to order it online and then there's shipping time. The Vitamin Shoppe carries a human version that I could pick up on my way home from work, but I've never heard of the brand.

I'm an idiot. I totally didn't think to call the other holistic vet we went to who suggested feeding him raw. DUH! I phoned and she'll call me back. I'll let you know what she says. When I told the receptionist lady what was going on and that Sebastian has explosive diarrhea after starting raw, she said, "Oh, yeah...that can happen." I might start a new thread on this to see how many other cats had diarrhea when starting raw.

 

[peaches08]

I can think a little more clearly now, lol, and where some of my questioning was going had to do with bone vs egg shells. I've read it both ways, from people I respect and do their research. But I can't help but to believe from my own personal experience that bone can be constipating. I've played around with eggshell calcium, and I notice slightly looser stools on egg shells. Not a big deal, I just add a little more egg shells or something with bone. Lately it's been Cornish hen cut into a small snack.

What's his normal stool like? Softer or harder? And what is absolutely off limits (ie chicken)? I kinda wonder if chicken is off limits, then eggs might be too?

 

[goholistic]

I can think a little more clearly now, lol, and where some of my questioning was going had to do with bone vs egg shells. I've read it both ways, from people I respect and do their research. But I can't help but to believe from my own personal experience that bone can be constipating. I've played around with eggshell calcium, and I notice slightly looser stools on egg shells. Not a big deal, I just add a little more egg shells or something with bone. Lately it's been Cornish hen cut into a small snack.

What's his normal stool like? Softer or harder? And what is absolutely off limits (ie chicken)? I kinda wonder if chicken is off limits, then eggs might be too?

I did use egg shells in the recipe. @Carolina suggested no bone for IBD kitties, and her reasoning sounded justified.

His normal stools are almost perfect....for a lack of a better word. They are a little on the large side because of being on a canned commercial diet and being a larger cat, but the consistency is almost always spot on. Not too soft, not too hard. Color is consistently normal. This is probably only the 3rd time in almost 4 years that he has ever had bad diarrhea.

It's difficult for me to answer what is off limits. He's on a strict novel protein diet at the moment as a way to help lessen the severity of his IBD due to possible food allergies. However, we really don't know if he has allergies or if something is off limits. He could certainly have sensitivities, and the eggs could definitely be a problem. I didn't even consider that when I was making the recipe that I've essentially added another protein by putting the raw egg in there. I was just following the recipe. 

 

 

[peaches08]

OK, bone is what helped mine but mine were IBS-D before starting raw.

 

[carolina]

There have been cases of bone pushing the pancreas into pancreatitis (rare, those were IBD kitties too) . Your kitty already has pancreatitis... So...
The important thing is the Ca/phosphorus ratio. That can be achieved with or without bone. I personally chose to supplement Calcium instead of feeding bone. All my cats are fine.
Soft poop will be related to the Ca ratio, it is just normally referred as "bone".

 

[raintyger]

I forget, are you giving a probiotic? It's recommended when you start raw.

 

[goholistic]

I've very worried about Sebastian.  

  He is totally uninterested in the Royal Canin canned rabbit and dry rabbit that he has been getting for 5 months with no issues. The dry formula recently changed. He ate it for maybe the first two days and started rejecting that. Since he is rejecting the dry, I think I'll discontinue that altogether...for good. This is my opportunity.

I called Royal Canin again to inquire about the canned. They say the formula has not changed. He seems to have started rejecting the canned when I started a new case. I am going to pick up a few individual cans from the vet (from a different case) and see if he turns his nose up at those, too. If he doesn't, then I'll know it's the case I have. If he does, then I know it's the cat. 

  I'm sure it's him since he seems to be rejecting everything.

He is also rejecting any more raw I put down in front of him. I put down a few pieces of Stella & Chewy's freeze-dried rabbit patties (for dogs) and he rejected that, too. He liked them in the past. He has barely eaten anything. As of this morning, he had maybe 60 calories in 48 hours. I'm panicking. I had a little conversation with myself and said at this point he needs to eat anything, even if it gives him a tummy ache or diarrhea. So, I scoured the pantry of canned foods I have and chose Hound & Gatos Rabbit (has duck liver in it). SUCCESS! He ate 3/8 of the can and he acted like he really liked it and cleaned his plate. Whew! 

His poor little system is getting quite a shock with all these changes and different foods. But he needs to eat. 

I put a call into the regular vet. She was supposed to be back in the office today, but my area had 12" of snow last night, so I imagine operations are a little chaotic (or non-existent) right now. The holistic vet did call me back last night. Unfortunately, she didn't have much to offer. I was quite disappointed with our conversation and I'll leave it at that on a public forum. If anyone wants to discuss this more in depth, please PM me.

Thanks for your input, @Carolina.

@Raintyger, yes, Sebastian is on a probiotic. I have doubled the dose to help with the diarrhea, which, by the way, I have not seen again in the litter box. He actually hasn't gone at all since Tuesday night. I'm hoping this just means things are firming up inside.

 

[ldg]

I hope the new vet got back to you.

When I replied earlier, I didn't realize he'd been having the new food since Saturday night. And now that there's more elaboration, I think the egg yolks could easily be causing the problem.

For IBD kitties, it is typically suggested to put them on a bland diet - don't worry about the balancing - for a week or so, let their systems settle down.

Do you have "save" items (proteins with bones) that you can make a bone broth for Sebestian? Let his system settle down? Then use just plain rabbit and eggshell - nothing else - for a little while? Just rinse the eggshells well so they're no white left.

This article includes why bone broth is healthy for an IBD animal (and human!) https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/reasons-your-dog-love-bone-broth/

And here's a Dr. Becker discussion of bone broth with instruction: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/12/02/pet-bone-broth.aspx

And if you haven't seen these, here are a few discussions of IBD by Dr. Becker you may find helpful:

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/06/01/feline-ibd-symptoms.aspx

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...012/09/24/pets-gi-inflammation-treatment.aspx

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...11/02/inflammatory-bowel-disease-in-pets.aspx

Bottom line? Probiotics, bland diet, transition to more complete diet. Of course, Sebastian didn't do well with the cooked rabbit and likes the raw rabbit. I would use just raw rabbit with calcium as the bland diet.

The bone broth, IMO, is a good place to start with the bland diet because it helps both with the inflammation and the dysbiosis. Obviously you wouldn't use chicken, but can he handle turkey? Or do you have a source for whole rabbit for a rabbit bone broth? :dk:

 

[goholistic]

Thanks for the detailed response and links, @LDG. I also found this article particularly helpful because she explains the challenges of changing the diet of a pet with GI disease: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/15/raw-food-diet-part-3.aspx

I mentioned in my post above that the holistic vet got back to me last night. I was disappointed with our conversation. 

LOL. Since I am not a die-hard raw feeder, yet, I do not have a menu of proteins and parts available in my house to make a bone broth. I am a semi-vegetarian myself, so there are never any meats in the freezer for me. I only have boneless ground rabbit and ground rabbit organs from HT. I could do plain ground rabbit (no organs?) and eggshell. A local market sells whole rabbit, but its from China. My boyfriend offered to cut it up for me, but I never purchased it because of its origin. (I'm also snowed in at the moment.)

Also, the problem now is that Sebastian is rejecting most everything. He liked the raw rabbit when I first introduced it, but is now walking away from it.  So, I'm in give-him-whatever-he-will-eat mode. 

 

[carolina]

If this was my cat I would buy a tub of Rad Cat turkey and put him on it. Remove him from all other foods. Wouldn't even do a slow transition. It would be pah-pay-poof as we say in Brazil. And if he stopped eating, yep, I would syringe feed that too. But I would be done with commercial. To me, food is getting toxic for this kitty, and I would take anything toxic from his system... But that's me....
Good job on taking the plunge, all the best to you and Seb.

 

[peaches08]

How's Sebastian doing?

 

[goholistic]

How's Sebastian doing?

It means a lot for you to ask.  

  Sometimes I think people get sick of hearing the same old issues with the same cats.

Sebastian is still not "himself" and I hope what I've been experiencing is not going to be the "new" Sebastian. 

  It takes a lot for me to get him to eat any decent amount. He continues to turn his nose up at the RC canned rabbit. I've stopped the raw rabbit for now. I've been able to get him to eat Hound & Gatos canned rabbit (contains duck liver), but that also could be upsetting his stomach just because it's probably a little richer. I have not offered him dry food again, but I'm tempted to so that he'll eat more. His stools are still very soft and light-colored, but the BM today was a least somewhat formed. He's also very irritable and has been lashing out at Caesar, which is a new behavior. I spoke to the vet and let her know what was going on. If this continues much longer, I may have to bring him in for some blood work and maybe an ultrasound to see what's going on. I've been very stressed.

 

[raintyger]

Have you thought of mixing the RC and Hound and Gatos? Maybe he'll eat it because of the Hound and Gatos, but the RC will keep it from being too rich.

 

[peaches08]

In addition to the above advice, I'd consider mixing kibble into the dry.

I know you're stressed, if not downright miserable. You and your kitties have been on my mind because I know you're trying. I've been there.

 

[cprcheetah]

Oh boy, something definitely sounds like it's amiss.  So sorry you are going through this.  I would try anything and everything to get him to eat.  Dealing with this in Munchie today, so I know how you feel.  I finally got him to eat a bunch of temptation treats on his own, but I am syringe feeding him his raw food right now.  DeeJay gets very irritable when she's not feeling good or hurting.

 

[scarlett 001]

I know the concept that wet/raw are all better than dry. But if the cat will not eat enough wet etc., then personally I don't see any harm if offering some dry. As you know, many of my senior cats have issues yet they adore dry kibble. I've transitioned to lots of wet food, but they just won't eat enough to hold weight and how can I expect a sick senior cat to change their ways. So my compromise is 3 wet meals throughout the day, with a rationed amount of dry kibble overnight. It seems to be working and I am comfortable with my decision. I am afraid that I fall under the group of people who thinks that eating enough is better than not eating enough and wasting away.