S.O.S. - Kinney has anorexia/anemia

[nekochan]

It's caused by the FIA. Feline infectious anemia. Causes his body to attack his red blood cells because of the parasite. He's already been hospitalized once just a few weeks ago. I'm going to buy some liver tomorrow and try that. Thank you for the information.

You can also try getting some liver-based canned cat food.

I've found a lot of "pate" type canned foods will work for syringe feeding if you add enough liquid to be able to get it to go into the feeding syringe.  I also usually warm the food up a bit for syringe feeding, as it seems to be accepted better that way.

What I've done before was add a liquid supplement instead of water to make the food more liquid while adding some vitamins and calories. One of my vets had suggested using Ensure for my dog who wasn't eating but I'm not sure if that is ok for cats. I've also used a liquid meal replacement for pets called Clinicare, and something called Catsure (like Ensure for pets).

I'm not a fan of Hills, but a/d does work great for syringe feeding, it's just the right consistency for it and it's high calorie/dense so you can get more calories in without as much volume which is a big plus when syringe feeding.

 

[roxie]

You can also try getting some liver-based canned cat food.
I've found a lot of "pate" type canned foods will work for syringe feeding if you add enough liquid to be able to get it to go into the feeding syringe.  I also usually warm the food up a bit for syringe feeding, as it seems to be accepted better that way.
What I've done before was add a liquid supplement instead of water to make the food more liquid while adding some vitamins and calories. One of my vets had suggested using Ensure for my dog who wasn't eating but I'm not sure if that is ok for cats. I've also used a liquid meal replacement for pets called Clinicare, and something called Catsure (like Ensure for pets).
I'm not a fan of Hills, but a/d does work great for syringe feeding, it's just the right consistency for it and it's high calorie/dense so you can get more calories in without as much volume which is a big plus when syringe feeding.

Where do you buy the Catsure and Clinicare?

 

[dan32]

Roxie: At Kinney's worst, he had just about stopped eating.  I probably should have syringe fed him at the time, but wasn't confident enough to do it.  Science Diet A/D has to be purchased at a vet's office, but is rich in liver (you can smell it) which would be good for anemia.  Or you can whip up almost any canned food in a blender adding small amounts of water to make a syringeable consistancy.  Kinney's anemia got so bad he needed a transfusion at the hospital.  He's eating on his own now.

 

[roxie]

The only time I had to force feed a cat was with Oreo. A few days before he passed they gave me some Science Diet AD and a huge syringe. He had stopped eating because the lump (lymphoma) on his neck made it hard for him to swallow. I hated doing it. I felt like I was torturing him and like he was going to choke to death on it. I hope it doesn't come to that with Bubba. He's still eating, just not the normal amount. I give him the pedialyte in a normal sized syringe.

 

[dan32]

Just to be clear, this talk about syringe feeding might move over to Bubba's thread which is over here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263769/bubba-has-had-a-relapse

 

[franksmom]

The only time I had to force feed a cat was with Oreo. A few days before he passed they gave me some Science Diet AD and a huge syringe. He had stopped eating because the lump (lymphoma) on his neck made it hard for him to swallow. I hated doing it. I felt like I was torturing him and like he was going to choke to death on it. I hope it doesn't come to that with Bubba. He's still eating, just not the normal amount. I give him the pedialyte in a normal sized syringe.

I am sorry you had a bad time with Oreo but syringe feeding is not that bad usually with some good tips and tricks. Watch the video Carolina did in the thread I posted above it shows some really great methods:

Fatty liver can develop with a decreased calorie intake so I would not risk it if your cat has not been eating a lot over a period of time and is losing weight. Here is some good info on it and how dangerous it is (http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/12/13/feline-hepatic-lipidosis.aspx). 

 

[nekochan]

Where do you buy the Catsure and Clinicare?

The Catsure I got from Pet Supplies Plus or Petco. I got the Clinicare from my vet first, and then later I ordered some from the website Entirelypets.

 

[roxie]

The Catsure I got from Pet Supplies Plus or Petco. I got the Clinicare from my vet first, and then later I ordered some from the website Entirelypets.

We have a Petco about 30 minutes from here. I have to go down there later today for a nerve conduction test so I'll go by there and see if they have any. I had never heard of either one. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[barbb]

Yes Dan, it looks like your thread was unintentionally hijacked! LOL, I have been scrolling and scrolling to try and find some information about Kinney's condition and hoping that you and Kinney are doing ok. It sounds good as far as I can tell :-) Let us know!

 

[nekochan]

Oh I also want to add, if anyone searches for the Catsure in the pet store, it was a little hard to find when I bought it at a Pet Supplies Plus- they had it in one of the locked glass cases where they keep the more expensive stuff. I think Petco had it stored by the health supplies and supplements but one store I went to it was with the kitten milk replacers IIRC, and it's possible other stores might store it by the pet food. So it might require a bit of searching.

Clinicare is I believe a complete liquid diet, whereas I think the Catsure is meant to supplement the diet.

 

[cheeto-moe]

I didn't read all the posts, but does he like liver. It will help bring up his red blood count as it is high in iron. Most cats find it yummy and a sick kitty might like it too! As its stinky! It just might give you more time. Beef hearts is good too, chicken hearts mine don't like as much, but prefer chicken liver over beef liver. It' cost the same 3 dollars your paying for those special science diet food. Though keep using them they help to.

 

[dan32]

Kinney had his #3 chemo today, Vincristine again which wasn't too bad the first time (was also chemo #1).  What I have noticed and mentioned to the oncologist was that he seems to sleep a lot on days 1-2 following the chemo - so we tried Cerenia for the first time to see if his lethargy is from nausea or what.  They gave him one pill of Cerenia at the doctor's office to get him started. 

I had asked if the Cerenia could be made up into a similar suspension that I could give along with his daily prednisone in the same syringe.  Not so easy apparently, as my regular compounding pharmacy did not have the raw ingredients to make it up - so they had to call it into another pharmacy and have it mail-ordered to me.  Hopefully will arrive tomorrow.

I guess we will see what effect the Cerenia he got today has tomorrow as he is usually pretty perky the day of the chemo - it is the day after that he looks hung over.  My understanding is that Cerenia is only given on as needed basis.  I am only planning on giving it to him on the night after his chemo and again maybe the next night.  By the third day he perks up again.  Although, I don't think he is still back to his hyper-active self prior to his illness.

Otherwise, his weight is stable at 9.25 pounds and bloodwork was normal.  He is eating on his own, but still more kibble than I would like. 

 

[barbb]

Toby too would sleep a day after his chemo but was downright hungry and animated the "day of" upon returning home. Ask them what they give with the chemo, ie do they add Benadryl or any other thing that might stimulate his appetite or perk him up so that he feels ok at first.
Also I learned quite a long time into his chemo that treatment #4 for Toby was always administered orally and consisted of very large pills, which left him drooling with nausea on the way home. Your protocol is different in that the med for #4 is not the same one, but is likely the tough one, and think you may want to ask them to explain the protocol and the impact of the 4th med in the treatment cycle either before or when your boy gets the 4th treatment, as I think it may be the tough one. For that matter ask them what each med is supposed to do. I did not, I wish I had. I wanted it to all magically work. I found when it did not, that I didn't know enough to start asking about other approaches. In fact they never exactly said it wasn't working until we were at the end of a year and on rescue chemo.

 

[roxie]

Am I right in thinking he only has one more round of chemo before they re-evaluate him? I hope this is all he has to have. It's almost impossible to get pills down my cats. I prefer the liquid too. Sending you good vibes and best wishes for Kinney.

 

[dan32]

Firstly, thank you for well wishes.  We could use any we can get.  This is pretty scary, actually.

Kinney's last medicine in the rotation is Adriamycin, also known as Doxyrubicon.  It is the only one of the medicines that is IV-dripped.  The other two medicines are injected in, which is why the visits are fairly short.  They told me to allow a full hour for the next visit - and it is also how the conversation about Cerenia came up.  Dr. is already expecting that he won't feel well and wanted me to have the Cerenia at home at the ready.

I was able in reading on the internet, learn that a former approach to GI large cell lymphoma was called "COP" protocol, which included Cyclophosphamide, Oncovin (Vincristine or Vinblastine), and Prednisone.  At some point in the last few years, they found that adding Hydroxydaunorubicin (Doxyrubicon or Adriamycin) to the mix - changing the acronym then to "CHOP"  - got longer remission rates.  So "CHOP" protocol is what he is getting and supposedly the "H" which is the fourth to be given (maybe why he gets two weeks off inbetween) is something fairly recent.  From what I have been reading, "CHOP" protocol for feline GI large cell lymphoma is where things "are at" at this point.

All of the meds are apparently alkylinating agents which make for a very alkaline environment in their systems.  I was also reading that digestive cancers are acid based (ulcers?) requiring blood sugars to multiply.  What immediately came to mind was "Cancer Loves Carbs", carb-rich kibble, and carb-devoid raw diets. 

I have to constantly ask myself how Kinney looks to me.  It is hard with cats to tell when sleeping is a good thing or they are sleeping too much.  The jury is still out on whether the Cerenia has improved his disposition today.  I don't see a huge change...

 

[dan32]

Well, what do you know?  The Cerenia suspension was on my doormat this afternoon.  Mail ordered cat medicines!

Actually, I get medicines mail-ordered so I guess it isn't that novel, but I am tickled I got it so quickly.  The Cerenia bottle also has the same syringe opening as the pred bottle even though they were made by different pharmacies, so that I can actually scoop up a little of this and a little of that tonight.  Something actually working out right.

The dose would be 4mg.

 

[ldg]

I don't remember Lazlo's protocol off-hand, though it may have been different because his was clearly a mass in his stomach. His fourth treatment of each cycle, however, was the Adriamyacin. None of Lazlo's chemo was administered orally (other than during the hurricane, when the facility got flooded and they had to replace all the meds, so they sent us home with oral pills for ... the vinblastine? I don't remember). But his protocol used VinBLastine, not Vincristine. I never did research on the difference, but when we transferred Lazlo's treatment to the local vet, I remember she was intrigued at that, as when they do the treatment there, they use vincristine.

Lazlo was also always fine on the day of the treatments, but the day after, and usually the day-after-that, his energy levels were off and he clearly didn't feel as well. But he was so sick going into the chemo that I don't think there's any real way to compare his progress to other kitties - though there were ups and downs, and the recurrence of his bleeding ulcers, overall, he just felt better and better as time went on.

For Lazlo, the energy level wasn't related to nausea: we kept him on the 1/4 pill of cerenia almost the entire course of chemo. He didn't need it toward the end - but he was basically on it daily for six months. And I always keep it on hand, because he does have "off" days, and I'll use it. I prefer seeing him excited about his food and eating it without fussing. But I have no problem pilling him. I'm not sure what I'd be doing if it were any issue.

In fact, he still gets 2.5mg of pred daily, and I give him the pepcid a/c daily for two weeks on /two weeks off, just to prevent the return of ulcers.

While the dosages of chemo for cats is different relative to body size than that used for people, I still think of it as equivalent to a strong antibiotic - and it wipes them out for a little while. I wasn't concerned about Lazlo needing the rest (nor was Dr. Clifford). I saw that as his body letting the medicine do its work. :heart2:

FYI, I didn't switch to raw food until we were in the last weeks of his chemo. They were on an all canned diet, four meals a day.. but I still had kibble in the house as treats at times. Lazlo, Tuxedo, and Flowerbelle were die-hard kibble addicts, and though they no longer free fed, and it wasn't given as a meal, I did give them a few bites a couple of times a day. On the mirtazipine, Lazlo would ask for some food every 20 to 30 minutes (for the most part). I still had kibble in the house then, and I kept some in a baggie under my pillow for a while, so that when he meowed in my ear at night, I could give him some without really waking up. :lol3: Of course, the other cats caught on quickly, so instead of barely waking up, I started having to get up and go give him food in the bathroom (the only room in the RV that has a door that closes. :lol3: ). Honestly, that entire 6 months was exhausting.

Raw IS called the cancer-starving diet. I've an article somewhere about the connection between carbs and cancer (same for people, too, in fact). But EATING is also important. At the time, I felt it was better to spoil him, and just keep him eating. In fact, we didn't eliminate kibble from the house until a couple of weeks into the raw transition - and mine, at that point, LOVED canned food. I was feeding EVO, Nature's Variety, some Wellness... some Tiki cat stuff... some Best Friends Feline... I don't remember what else we used to buy. :anon: People here recommended Temptations treats as toppers - but my cats never really liked them. NOW they'd probably go nuts for them, not having had any type of kibble product for almost 1.5 years. :lol3: The closest they get to kibble is Fortiflora. It is mostly animal digest ( ) - but that is what makes kibble so addictive: the fats that are sprayed on to the kibble before it gets bagged. :nod:

IMO, rather than constantly trying to evaluate how he's doing, it's probably better - if you can - to try NOT to keep evaluating. Treat as issues come up, keep his weight on, let him get his rest.... and every month try the comparison. It's like losing weight. SO much better if you weigh weekly rather than daily. Only with chemo, as treatments ARE weekly, those "weekly weight" measurements are the equivalent of monthly re-evaluations.

 

[ldg]

Well, what do you know?  The Cerenia suspension was on my doormat this afternoon.  Mail ordered cat medicines!

Actually, I get medicines mail-ordered so I guess it isn't that novel, but I am tickled I got it so quickly.  The Cerenia bottle also has the same syringe opening as the pred bottle even though they were made by different pharmacies, so that I can actually scoop up a little of this and a little of that tonight.  Something actually working out right.

The dose would be 4mg.

Wow - that is great service!

 

[ldg]

Oh - through my blathering, I never said anything about the adriamycin. Yes, that was tougher on his system. It had more of an effect than the others, and wiped him out a little harder and longer. :nod:

 

[nekochan]

One thing about raw, I would discuss with your vet whether it may be an issue while undergoing the chemotherapy. My dog's oncologist said not to use the raw diet while my dog was on chemo, because chemo compromises the immune system and can make them susceptible to infections from bacteria that can be found in raw. She was on raw before we started, but I used a low-carb cooked freeze dried food and then a no-carb pasteurized food for her (and some home-cooked stuff like the liver) while she was on chemo.

That is also why I am not using raw for my cats now, because they are on Atopica which is an immunosuppresant and my vet (who likes raw diets) said the raw could be an issue.