Raw diet for a 3 mos senitive stomach kitten

[koobe]

Dear All,

I am a newbie here and first time cat owner, I am pretty much lost in terms of diet. I have a lot of questions and I apologize if some have been answered before.

I adopted 2 kittens from a local shelter 2.5 weeks ago (Panther & Cheetah). They are estimated to be about 3 mos old now. The people from the shelter advised us to give them Royal Canin Kitten dry food along with Wellness kitten wet food. We know that they can get upset stomach if we change the brand of food, and so we bought a 20 lbs dry food (1st mistake) up front. I was told to split 1 can of Wellness between them each day.

We then found out Cheetah has very soft stool and after reading the vet records, we found out he is sensitive to Wellness and had diarrhea before when he consumes Wellness. We asked the vet in the shelter, and she told me the kittens in the shelter weren't even being fed with Wellness, they were being fed with California Natural.

So I switched Cheetah to a diet with chicken and rice only for a few days, and then slowly bring him back on dry food as supplements (he is not a big fan of dry food anyway). Then I started adding canned food to the chicken, I tried tiny bit of Wellness, then added AvoDerm. With a plan in mind to change them back to dry and wet food. Panther has been doing well with food and has been gaining weight. As of last Thursday, Panther was 3.7 lbs and Cheetah was 3.0 lbs. Cheetah is estimated to be 1 week older than Panther though.

In the process of searching for the best canned food for my kittens, I have a hard time to find the perfect canned food, and since I have been reading a lot about raw diet, I would like to give it a try. I am starting to cook the chicken less to give them a taste of raw food.

The biggest problem now is about transitioning from dry/wet food diet to raw with a 20 lbs dry food and 12 cans of wet food in stock. And also how to adjust it for Cheetah with a sensitive stomach. And where can I shop for vitamin supplements to make my homemade raw food, etc. Is gorcery store prepacked chicken or forzen chicken good enough to make raw diet for my kittens?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.

 

[auntie crazy]

Congratulations on realizing how important a species-appropriate diet is for our little carnivores! It's awesome that you're willing to make this effort for your new kittens.

Some of the answers to your questions are going to depend on what raw-feeding methodology you use. There are three: Grinding, Frankenprey and Whole Prey.

There are a HUGE number of ground "recipes" out there, here are two sites to check out: Cat Info and Cat Nutrition. Supplements are generally accepted as a requirement for this feeding method.

Frankenprey feeders use the 80%, 10%, 5%, 5% guideline:
80% - 87% meat, fat, skin, sinew, connective tissue, heart and gizzards
5% - 10% edible bone
3% - 5% liver
5% other secreting organ (kidney, spleen, brain, testicles, eyes, etc.)

The only supplement usually needed here are Omega-3s, unless you're able to procure grass-fed beef and poultry products. Salmon oil caps are typically used, but a Sardine a week is sometimes substituted (I feed sardines).

Finally, of course, you have the Whole Prey method, which is exactly what it sounds like - whole mice, rats, guinea pigs, chicks, etc. are fed. No supplementation is needed with this diet, since you're giving your cat exactly what he evolved to eat.

This is a very, very general overview. Which method most resembles what you've got in mind for your cats?

 

[auntie crazy]

Here's a thread with a little more information: Natural Diet Resources.

And this is a real-time blog about transitioning my own cats to raw: Taking the Plunge.

 

[koobe]

I would say Frankenprey feeders or ground.

I do have chinese supermarkets around and it is not at all difficult for me to get brain, kidney, liver and such. I like the fact no supplements are needed except Omega-3. Do I need to ground the Frenkenprey recipes?

I will take ground recipes into consideration too. The only problem about this is the precise measure of every supplement.

About Cheetah, with sensitive stomach, will raw diet take care of it? Or should I worry if Cheetah will be sensitive to any of the ingredients? And when should I start? The earlier the better? even they are at 3 months of age?

 

[auntie crazy]

Age doesn't matter, the earlier the better.

You do, however, want to take the transition slowly. You need to understand exactly what you're doing and why before your cats are eating a 100% raw diet.

Grinding, frankenprey and whole prey are three distinct methods of feeding. They can be mixed (I fed a ground breakfast and frankenprey lunches and dinners before I shifted over to all frankenprey and whole prey), but you need to know what you're doing.

If your kittens will eat canned, then stop feeding the dry (dry is not a good food for cats; google "The Dangers of Dry Food") and feed canned foods while you're researching raw and making the (slow) transition.

 

[koobe]

I would love to stop the dry.
But Cheetah is sensitive to some canned food, for example Wellness kitten formula. He is eating homemade chicken (75%) and canned food (25%).

I work long hours and I am not able to give them 3-4 meals a day. I leave the house at 6am and return home sometimes at 8:30 pm.

Now I keep a bowl of dry out for the day (I read people in the forum said I should take the 24/7 access away, and give them 3-4 times a day. But I am not able to do it with my work schedule)

I do not quite understand the difference of ground and frankenprey diet. I know I do not want to go whole prey, it can be too scary for me.

 

[jack31]

With ground, you are grinding all the meat together--no help to their teeth!

With frankenprey, you are offering chunks of muscle meat, meaty bones, liver and other orgrans--usually from different sources, as you can't feed beef or pork bones and with turkey and chicken only the smaller bones. With frankenprey the cat is having to use their jaw muscles to chew and tear the meat.

Whole prey you'd be plopping down a mouse or rabbit.

Leslie

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by koobe

Dear All,

I am a newbie here and first time cat owner, I am pretty much lost in terms of diet. I have a lot of questions and I apologize if some have been answered before.

I adopted 2 kittens from a local shelter 2.5 weeks ago (Panther & Cheetah). They are estimated to be about 3 mos old now. The people from the shelter advised us to give them Royal Canin Kitten dry food along with Wellness kitten wet food. We know that they can get upset stomach if we change the brand of food, and so we bought a 20 lbs dry food (1st mistake) up front. I was told to split 1 can of Wellness between them each day.

We then found out Cheetah has very soft stool and after reading the vet records, we found out he is sensitive to Wellness and had diarrhea before when he consumes Wellness. We asked the vet in the shelter, and she told me the kittens in the shelter weren't even being fed with Wellness, they were being fed with California Natural.

So I switched Cheetah to a diet with chicken and rice only for a few days, and then slowly bring him back on dry food as supplements (he is not a big fan of dry food anyway). Then I started adding canned food to the chicken, I tried tiny bit of Wellness, then added AvoDerm. With a plan in mind to change them back to dry and wet food. Panther has been doing well with food and has been gaining weight. As of last Thursday, Panther was 3.7 lbs and Cheetah was 3.0 lbs. Cheetah is estimated to be 1 week older than Panther though.

In the process of searching for the best canned food for my kittens, I have a hard time to find the perfect canned food, and since I have been reading a lot about raw diet, I would like to give it a try. I am starting to cook the chicken less to give them a taste of raw food.

The biggest problem now is about transitioning from dry/wet food diet to raw with a 20 lbs dry food and 12 cans of wet food in stock. And also how to adjust it for Cheetah with a sensitive stomach. And where can I shop for vitamin supplements to make my homemade raw food, etc. Is gorcery store prepacked chicken or forzen chicken good enough to make raw diet for my kittens?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.

The best advice for you is to Research and DISCUSS this with your vet...

Yes 3 month old s can be feed raw but in your case you likely have a bacterial issue due to multiple food changes too quickly ... Ask the vet about a probiotic

Grinding has drawbacks , ie a whole grd chicken has the wrong mineral level for a cat ... No killed packaged meats of any kind will = a TRULY natural diet ...

 

[koobe]

Thank you, Sharky.

I have talked to my vet about raw diet. He said he has not been convinced by it. He said dry food and wet food are equally nutritious and making raw diet is too inconvenient. He also said any brand named canned food is good, he mentioned Iams, Science Diet, etc. He was also telling me I should take the steamed chicken out of the kittens diet and switch them back to dry and canned food slowly.

He is not too into raw diet, that is why I am seeking help here.

 

[auntie crazy]

Vets make money off the food they sell from their offices, and veterinarian schools receive grants and other monies from the companies that manufacture those products. In addition, the only nutritional training most vets receive is from those very same companies.

So vets simply accept the pet food industry's assurances (as do the vast majority of consumers) that they (the pet food companies) have been manufacturing these products for so long they are the only ones capable of feeding pets properly; and then dissuaded from rocking the boat too much by the profits they receive from the pet food sales.

You'll be lucky to find one even open to the idea of raw and incredibly blessed to find one who knows anything about it. That's not to say don't look, of course - but don't wait on a "knowledgeable" vet to get your kitties started on raw. A chunk of chicken, a sliver of turkey, a slice of liver make wonderful little treats and get your cats accustomed to the scents and textures of raw.

If you're interested, some reading on the vets/pet food industry's relationship:
Dolittler: How do vets recommend pet food? (Part 2: Education)

Last paragraph: To make matters worse, the influence of this pet food industry oligopoly on real-life veterinary practice is extreme. Not only does the modern vet practice believe in the science behind the bags of food, it has come to rely on the income these foods provide. Read the next installment of this series for a continuation of this discussion.

There is, however, a growing change in general awareness. More and more, vets are beginning to recognize the damage dry foods are doing to our cats, and even vendors are coming 'round - I know of one already who refuses to stock any kibble for cats.

You're doing right to keep researching, Koobe. The Feline Nutritional Education Society's website has several articles by veterinarians, nutritional experts and others that you might find helpful.

 

[skimble]

My vet gasped at the mention of a raw diet and proceeded to lecture me about how bad it was for them. Odd that it wasn't bad for them many years ago when they ate small prey.

I have recently started researching a raw diet with the help of another vet. What I am considering is a pre-made raw that has everything already ground along with any needed supplements. I noticed that some places sold ground and sold the packaged supplements separately.

Maybe some of the more experienced might explain if that would be a good start. I'll keep checking for your experiences and progress.

 

[koobe]

Grinding has drawbacks , ie a whole grd chicken has the wrong mineral level for a cat ... No killed packaged meats of any kind will = a TRULY natural diet ...[/quote]

By saying a killed packaged meat is not a TRULY natural diet means Costco packaged chicken are not good?

I do see whole chicken in chinese supermarket, but I cannot tell if hormones are added. At least Costco packaged chicken said no added hormones.

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by koobe

Thank you, Sharky.

I have talked to my vet about raw diet. He said he has not been convinced by it. He said dry food and wet food are equally nutritious and making raw diet is too inconvenient. He also said any brand named canned food is good, he mentioned Iams, Science Diet, etc. He was also telling me I should take the steamed chicken out of the kittens diet and switch them back to dry and canned food slowly.

He is not too into raw diet, that is why I am seeking help here.

Seek the advice of another vet ... IMHO any vet giving advise online should have their license revoked ... As general info can cause grave injury and death and in some cases it has thus the EVER present Disclaimer... As for SUPPOSED experts online ANYONE can spout anything ... I recommend reading many of the books on raw and finding a vet to help you that you can discuss what you read and find online ...


1. No online advice can replace direct veterinary intervention. If you suspect that your cat may be ill, please contact your vet immediately. You are welcome to look for advice in the health forum while waiting for that appointment, but never delay proper veterinary care waiting for Internet advice. Remember that cats, and especially kittens, are very adept in keeping pain to themselves and delaying treatment may cause irreversible damage.

that is TCS s disclaimer but it rings truth...
Many Many vets are learning much more about nutrition and are open to aiding you with a raw diet

 

[koobe]

Originally Posted by sharky

Seek the advice of another vet ... IMHO any vet giving advise online should have their license revoked ... As general info can cause grave injury and death and in some cases it has thus the EVER present Disclaimer... As for SUPPOSED experts online ANYONE can spout anything ... I recommend reading many of the books on raw and finding a vet to help you that you can discuss what you read and find online ...


1. No online advice can replace direct veterinary intervention. If you suspect that your cat may be ill, please contact your vet immediately. You are welcome to look for advice in the health forum while waiting for that appointment, but never delay proper veterinary care waiting for Internet advice. Remember that cats, and especially kittens, are very adept in keeping pain to themselves and delaying treatment may cause irreversible damage.

that is TCS s disclaimer but it rings truth...
Many Many vets are learning much more about nutrition and are open to aiding you with a raw diet

Not sure if you understand me right, I went to the vet's office for a check up after I adopted Panther and Cheetah. He told me his opinion about raw diet when I asked.

I have told him about the soft stool Cheetah is having and he took a sample and said he did not see any parasite from the small sample. But he dewormed both of my kittens just to be safe.

Today Cheetah is having watery diarrhea, since this is the 3rd day after the deworming, I am not quite sure if that is the course of it.

Food wise, I have made the chicken less done (about 80% done) and added more canned food to the chicken, which is about 1oz of the canned food. I gave him AvoDerm with 2% of crude fat. He might have stolen some (1 teaspoon at most) of the Panther's food, but Panther's food is 2 tablespoon of chicken breast with 1 teaspoon of Authority kitten canned food.

Cheetah's stomach is so sensitive I really want to get his stomach stable before sloooooooowly switching him to raw.

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by koobe

Not sure if you understand me right, I went to the vet's office for a check up after I adopted Panther and Cheetah. He told me his opinion about raw diet when I asked.

I have told him about the soft stool Cheetah is having and he took a sample and said he did not see any parasite from the small sample. But he dewormed both of my kittens just to be safe.

Today Cheetah is having watery diarrhea, since this is the 3rd day after the deworming, I am not quite sure if that is the course of it.

Food wise, I have made the chicken less done (about 80% done) and added more canned food to the chicken, which is about 1oz of the canned food. I gave him AvoDerm with 2% of crude fat. He might have stolen some (1 teaspoon at most) of the Panther's food, but Panther's food is 2 tablespoon of chicken breast with 1 teaspoon of Authority kitten canned food.

Cheetah's stomach is so sensitive I really want to get his stomach stable before sloooooooowly switching him to raw.

IMHO you should be looking into what is causing this sensitivity. It could be food allergies, for example, and in that case, it doesn't matter how that ingredient is processed, your baby will continue with watery diarrhea.
Not all diets work for all cats, that includes all of them.
Your vet can help you with an elimination diet until you find what your cat is sensitive to, and then you can go from there, excluding those ingredients. Yes, for a while he will be put back on a LID (limited ingredients diet), that will most likely be kibbles, and from there you will start adding ingredients to his diet, to find what causes this problem.
For my Bugsy, for example, he had a similar problem as your cat... With the guidance of my vet and support from TCS, I was able to find out he is allergic to Chicken (through an elimination diet). It doesn't matter how i feed it to him - it can be raw, canned, in kibbles, cooked... It always gives him watery diarrhea.
I also think that he might have IBD, and he has been very healthy on kibbles and canned, with added probiotics and no chicken in his diet.
I also removed all grains, put him on a VERY high quality diet, with simple ingredients and none of the junk, etc. etc. But the most important thing that I was able to do, was to find out that he was allergic to chicken.
So, what you are going to feed him, is completely your choice. There will be people who defend raw diet as being the best, and there will be people who will be skeptical about it. Both of them have their arguments, but the bottom line is to find what works FOR YOUR CAT. Do know that there are plenty of choices for you and your cat, and if this is a medical issue, your vet CAN help you...
IMHO I would first try to find out what the problem is, then to seek a solution.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Skimble

My vet gasped at the mention of a raw diet and proceeded to lecture me about how bad it was for them. Odd that it wasn't bad for them many years ago when they ate small prey.

Just remember that eating small prey and eating raw chicken from the supermarket are two entirely different things. There are things like taurine that the cat would have gotten from live prey that they aren't getting from the chicken in the supermarket.

It really is important to compare apples to apples to avoid ending up with sick animals because the research was not done completely.

One of our long term members lost her beloved cat due to raw feeding so it's not something to be taken lightly.

 

[koobe]

Originally Posted by carolinalima

IMHO you should be looking into what is causing this sensitivity. It could be food allergies, for example, and in that case, it doesn't matter how that ingredient is processed, your baby will continue with watery diarrhea.
Not all diets work for all cats, that includes all of them.
Your vet can help you with an elimination diet until you find what your cat is sensitive to, and then you can go from there, excluding those ingredients. Yes, for a while he will be put back on a LID (limited ingredients diet), that will most likely be kibbles, and from there you will start adding ingredients to his diet, to find what causes this problem.
For my Bugsy, for example, he had a similar problem as your cat... With the guidance of my vet and support from TCS, I was able to find out he is allergic to Chicken (through an elimination diet). It doesn't matter how i feed it to him - it can be raw, canned, in kibbles, cooked... It always gives him watery diarrhea.
I also think that he might have IBD, and he has been very healthy on kibbles and canned, with added probiotics and no chicken in his diet.
I also removed all grains, put him on a VERY high quality diet, with simple ingredients and none of the junk, etc. etc. But the most important thing that I was able to do, was to find out that he was allergic to chicken.
So, what you are going to feed him, is completely your choice. There will be people who defend raw diet as being the best, and there will be people who will be skeptical about it. Both of them have their arguments, but the bottom line is to find what works FOR YOUR CAT. Do know that there are plenty of choices for you and your cat, and if this is a medical issue, your vet CAN help you...
IMHO I would first try to find out what the problem is, then to seek a solution.

I do not think Cheetah is allergic to chicken. I have been feeding him chicken only, then chicken with a little bit of canned food for the last 10 days. His soft stool situation was improving while I feed him chicken and small amount of canned food.

He was on W/D for a while when he was in the shelter.

I always look at Panther's stool for comparsion.

 

[furryfriends50]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

Just remember that eating small prey and eating raw chicken from the supermarket are two entirely different things. There are things like taurine that the cat would have gotten from live prey that they aren't getting from the chicken in the supermarket.

It really is important to compare apples to apples to avoid ending up with sick animals because the research was not done completely.

One of our long term members lost her beloved cat due to raw feeding so it's not something to be taken lightly.

Actually raw chicken has plenty of taurine. The heart for example has a lot of taurine. All the dark meat in the chicken is great.

Also, most cats that are allergic to a protein source in a commercial food aren't allergic to it in the raw form.

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

Also, most cats that are allergic to a protein source in a commercial food aren't allergic to it in the raw form.

Very strange statement... IMO and experience Not true, my Bugsy can prove it. A cat who is allergic to a type of meat, is allergic to the meat itself, not to the way it is processed.

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by koobe

I do not think Cheetah is allergic to chicken. I have been feeding him chicken only, then chicken with a little bit of canned food for the last 10 days. His soft stool situation was improving while I feed him chicken and small amount of canned food.

He was on W/D for a while when he was in the shelter.

I always look at Panther's stool for comparsion.

Koobe - my post was not to say that your cat is allergic to chicken. The allergy to chicken was ONE EXAMPLE, more specifically what happened to my cat, how I found out, and how he is healthy today.
What I am saying, is that he can be allergic to SOMETHING in the food, and yes, that can be one type of meat, or something else. There are many things he could be allergic to it.
As I said:

IMHO you should be looking into what is causing this sensitivity. It could be food allergies, for example, and in that case, it doesn't matter how that ingredient is processed, your baby will continue with watery diarrhea.
Not all diets work for all cats, that includes all of them.
Your vet can help you with an elimination diet until you find what your cat is sensitive to, and then you can go from there, excluding those ingredients.