New cat unaccepted

[AngelaParker]

Hi Friends!
I have never used a forum before but am at my wit's end. Four months ago, we introduced a new kitten to our 10-year-old Bengals. She was a four-month-old, and for my daughter who had just lost her cat of 12 years. The three had been a happy pack. My neutered male took to her wonderfully, and they made fast friends. My spayed female, however, after three months, almost four of slow introductions, switching territories, using friendly pheromones, and every trick I can find online and from my vet, is STILL viciously attacking her whenever they are together. My older female (N) attacks the kitten (M), relentlessly chasing her around. Then I separate them and put N in another room or take M to my daughter's room for a while. It is wearing us all out, and I am terrified it is going to create a timid cat out of my spunky little kitten for enduring these repeated attacks and feeling like she is constantly being stalked. I can certainly start the introduction process over, but it feels pointless. Even during that process, N was always aggressive and never moved past it. I guess I rushed the situation thinking it would work out since I had done all the things. Any suggestions are helpful!
Thanks
Angela

 

[Alldara]

It sounds like N wasn't ready for face to face meetings.. we can do all the right things, but we still need to go at the slowest cats pace.

I'd recommend backing it up. There's no reason why N can't take some time in say your room for a couple hours while the kitten gets out with your male cat.

How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction - TheCatSite

How To Successfully Introduce Cats [The Ultimate Guide] - TheCatSite

ID recommend going back to gated introductions. Use catnip, treats, whatever you can to get N to associate M with good things and fun.
Brush them with the same brush daily. Take a worn shirt of one family members every day and rub new cat and then male cat and then N with the t-shirt and then run the t-shirt along the baseboards of your home.

During gated time, really let M see N play, but also if you can get M playing on her side of the gate, even just rolling and swatting is fine.



lastly, do you have carpet or something slippery like hardwood, tiles, etc?

heres some cat calming music you can play during intros:

 

[AngelaParker]

Those are things I have tried but clearly not long enough. I must have rushed N. Just had no idea it would take this long. I could divide the house, it's not that large though, with a baby gate on the hallway and I have separate litter boxes on both sides. I am pretty sure though that M (kitten) could jump it in a quick minute. N is heavier though and prob wouldn't try. M is a bengal as well and an earlier generation. has proved to more feral than I expected and quite a handful.
thanks for these ideas will try anything at this point.
Angela

 

[Alldara]

If you have mostly a slippery floor try adding some runners or rugs with antislip as well. Your 10 yr olds are getting older and that will help them feel more secure if they feel like they can leave easily.

 

[ArtNJ]

I would encourage you to think of it this way: was the step you moved on from still doing any work? i.e. was there improvement still happening/possible? For example, lets say you have a gate up for 3 weeks, and the way the house is structured, they do pass the age with some regularity, and the older cat is still hissing and charging the gate with the same frequency. That is one kind of a lack of progress, and discouraging because you can't try face to face, and yet nothing seems to be improving. Another kind would be that there was initially hissing, but after a week or two there is close to zero hissing/growling or other problems at the gate. Lets say you leave the gate up for another week or two and nothing changes, still pretty good, but occasionally a hiss or two. In either case, what is the chance that the gate step is still doing anything and should be left up longer? The difference is that in the second scenario, maybe its reasonable to try face-to-face.

I don't know the answer as to when improvement is or is not possible. But I have a slightly different view than most, in that I think there eventually comes a point where a particular step is not capable of advancing the ball, and if we think we are that point I'm not a fan of indefinitely waiting for something to change, even if there is no particular reason to think it will. Sometimes things can seem to just stall out. So I feel there comes a point where you either try face to face or give up. If you get to that point, its not necessarily a bad or abnormal thing. Cats can do a lot of work on their own to overcome relationship stress. So to me it comes down to this: will one cat hurt the other? If so, no progress will be made. If there is a lot of drama and stress but no actual for real fighting, then that is something they can potentially work through during face to face. And, at times, when you've done what you can, you have to let them.

 

[Kflowers]

I wonder if your older female N might not be suffering from some arthritis, maybe not in her joints that would be obvious, but in her spine or ribs. It can hurt and make you feel weak and vulnerable. Such feelings might make her fear the stranger even if the stranger is small now, she may know they grow, or just moving hurts which makes everything harder particularly after the loss of a friend. If you do decide to have her check out insist that the vet do a full body x-ray. For some reason they dislike doing this, but it's the only way to know and cats aren't that big.

Yes, this is kinda my thing. Our kitten grew up aggressive very aggressive, but at age one, we did have the x-rays done and she did have arthritis. She's on joint medicine and after the first few weeks of taking that she was like a different -- in she became a friendly cat who quit attacking everyone.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

I'm going to back up JUST a bit here, and ask you to be VERY specific about what you mean when you say, "viciously attacks." It may, or may not, be as bad as you are thinking, but we need a clear mental image of what is happening.

 

[AngelaParker]

I'm going to back up JUST a bit here, and ask you to be VERY specific about what you mean when you say, "viciously attacks." It may, or may not, be as bad as you are thinking, but we need a clear mental image of what is happening.

N typically stalks M, looks for a vulnerable opportunity. A corner, up against the wall, etc. She strikes her with paw, but they never come in contact other than that. She has never jumped on M. Only growled, hissed, and popped her repeatedly with her paw. There is a lot of...loud scream like meows. M will cower, lay her ears back but not retaliate, and then move to get away. Sometimes N will pursue her and attack again if she can. M typically looks for a place N cannot get to-under the chair, the bed, etc. This is if we have not intervened yelling and running N off. I know when my adult bengals play they will roll all over each other and play bite one another. This has never happened with M and N.
I don't know if that helps, or is a clear enough pic. Hard to explain with words.
Thanks for all the great advice-we are formulating a new plan! I think we need to start over. We will be spaying M at the end of the month and she will have to be separated for two weeks anyway. We are thinking at that point we will begin the intro process again. This time with a mesh door on our hallway so the house will be divided. All we can do is try and pray they figure out how to be tolerant of one another at least.
angela

 

[ArtNJ]

Charging and swatting does seem to be different thing than attacking with intent to injure, although accidental scratches are possible. Its more like "I don't want you here, go away!" then "I'm going to kill you!!!" It can sometimes escalate if the cat on the receiving end decides to fight. BUT crazy as it sounds, its not necessarily impossible for them to work through it. I'm not sure enough of the timeline to recommend that; maybe backing up is the right move. Especially with the spaying coming up, trying a reset is logical.

Tip for the future: do not break up charging and swatting with yelling. That just leads to more stress for both cats for which they will blame the other, not you. As I mentioned above, charging and swatting is not the same as fighting with intent to injure, so you can definitely take a few seconds to calmly de-escalate things. If you suspect cats may fight, have a towel handy to pick one up. Some here have recommended a big piece of cardboard you can put in between them.

 

[AngelaParker]

that is some very helpful advice-thank you! I like the "not intent to kill" observation. Just "I don't like you". Good perspective.
Angela

 

[ArtNJ]

Its definitely very very weird. But cats do seem to have two distinct modes of getting physical, and a cat that wants to charge and swat is just a very different situation than one that wants to roll around biting and clawing (i.e. full on fighting for real). But even on the charge and swat side, there is a spectrum, from a half-hearted charge and a swat or two, to serious pursuit and chain swatting up a storm. At the far side of the spectrum with really vigorous pursuit and chain swatting like crazy, its hard to recommend that people just let the cats work it out, maybe there is an actual need to back up there. But at the better side of the spectrum, an occasional charge and a couple of swats is not so much worse than growling and hissing.

 

[Kflowers]

If cats really intend to kill each other, it's done in seconds. This would have been over before you could stand up much less reach them. Cats are small and fragile, I believe that is why they are given the weapons and training to save themselves at the first clench. If they don't do it then, they aren't likely to. Minor injuries are just part of being a cat, like being a kid. Even the screaming tom cats aren't intending to kill.

 

[Ga s]

One of my male cats used to bully an older female when I first adopted him. First I'd give him a time out in the spare bedroom. An hour later when I'd open the door he'd be lying on the bed wagging his tail like a happy prince. That didn't work. Next time I put him in the bathtub, closed the door and left the light off. I'd open the door an hour later. He did not like being locked in the bathroom. Next time he was locked up for two hours. Each time he was locked up for longer. He got the message by the fourth time out.

Cats figure out who is the boss. And it's not them. You don't have to be mean or abusive, just make it clear that you will not tolerate bad behaviour.

I've never had an adult cat dislike a kitten. I find it strange because when I have brought home kittens, my adult cats always defer to the kittens to the point where they lose weight because they allow the kittens to eat their food. As someone mentioned, maybe your elderly female has some health problems that make her irritated by the rambunctiousness of the kitten.

Anyway, she's not trying to rip out the kitten's throat so probably over time they'll sort themselves out. The kitten will learn that he/she can play with the male cat and not the female. If you really want to have a bit of a circus, adopt another kitten. Then hopefully the two youngsters will focus on each other and leave the grumpy oldster alone. Cats are territorial. The more of them in a given space the less territorial they become. I know because I had six cats at one time. The more cats, the less conflict. Look at videos of open cat shelters where there can be 20 or 30 cats together. They don't fight. They've got nothing to fight over.

 

[Alldara]

I would not recommend locking up a cat for hours at a time in the dark. Or any living being for that matter.

Cats should never be blocked access to water or litter.

Further tail wagging in a cat is not a sign of pleasure. It is a sign of agitation. Meaning agitation because they are displeased or agitation during play (because hunting). Cats are not dogs and their body language should not be interpreted as if they are a dog.

 

[Ga s]

He was lying on the bed flicking the end of his tail. That's not aggression. That's showing interest.
He was quite happy.
If I put him in the bathroom for an hour, that's no different than when he goes to the vet and is
in his carrier for an hour drive to and another hour drive back. He's not happy about that either.
He hasn't had a time out since 2011.
Once in a while, he manages to sneak into the closet and I close the door on him and there's
a lot of yelling to let me know he's locked in.
But when he got his time outs in the bathroom, he was quiet because he knew his behaviour
was not good.
Cats aren't dumb you know. People underestimate their intelligence. They learn fast. But
they don't unlearn fast and if they are allowed to do things that are not good, they learn it
and then good luck with unlearning them.

 

[Alldara]

You'll find I'm one of the last people to think cats are stupid. I did not suggest that they are. Just that their language should not be compared to dog body language.