Need some help transitioning to Raw Feeding please

[ldg]

One of my cats gets inappetance sometimes from hairballs. We've had our first hairball incidents since they've been on egg yolk lecithin. It didn't affect Lazlo, but Tuxie's appetite was off for a couple of meals. :nod:

But FYI, clear vomit with hair in it most likely isn't a hairball problem. Vomiting undigested food hours after a meal is - the hairball is stuck down at the bottom of the stomach, preventing gastric emptying. Clear vomit is just bile, and the loose hair in it is normal, because cats ingest their hair. O course, if she had a hairball that wasn't completely blocking digestion, that could have been why she was otherwise eating OK, but maybe having it in her tummy created bile, and the hair that came up just hadn't rolled into the hairball yet... Sometimes, we just never know. :lol3:

Whatever it was, I'm glad she's feeling better!

 

[peaches08]

Bile in cats is clear?

 

[ldg]

No, it's yellow. But usually comes up as clear and frothy, or tinged yellow.

 

[vball91]

Holy moly! Aria just ate a whole ounce of raw beef strips! I am flabbergasted! After over 2 months of trying to transition her to frankenprey, this is just weird. I was prepping brisket for dinner, and Aria was sitting in a sunny spot in the kitchen. I don't know what made me try it, but I cut off some long thin strips, and dangled one in front of her face. She sniffed it and then ate it! She chomped a couple of times but it was gone in like 2 seconds. I tried it again, and she ate it. I kept giving her thin slices until she stopped eating, and it was about an ounce in under 2 minutes. That's the most raw she's ever eaten in one sitting and certainly the quickest! This is the same cat who takes like 10 minutes to eat half an ounce of ground raw with me following her around with the dish. I don't get it. I've tried strips before, but it was chicken and in her bowl. I don't know if it was the beef or the hand feeding but I hope it continues. I hope it wasn't just the novelty. I was just so amazed that I had to share!

 

[ldg]

Maybe she loves beef? :dk:

Our Flowerbelle totally "had" ADD when it came to eating. With 7 other cats, it got to the point I had to feed her separately, in the bathroom. I had to stop in there frequently, fuss with the dish, add a topper, pretend to add a topper.... she is just NOT food motivated!

Our cats are not allowed on the counters. Well - they weren't. But one evening, fixing dinner, she jumped up on the counter and started eating out of one of the bowls (happened to be hers :lol3: ). She started - and didn't stop until she finished! Well, needless to say that became her eating spot. I prepare her bowl first, and she's usually done with her meal by the time I'm done prepping everyone else's food!

Of course.... that means the counters are no longer off-limits to the cats.

So I hope it wasn't the hand feeding... but maybe she'd eat strips if they were on a plate? Or a placemat? I have a kitty that doesn't necessarily like to finish his meals, but if I take what's left out of the shallow bowls I use for their food and put it on the placement, he'll eat it up. :lol3:

 

[vball91]

I will definitely try to feed her on different surfaces. She does seem to have difficulty getting food in her mouth. I'm wondering if the hand feeding just made it easier for her to get it in the side of her mouth for chomping.

The weird thing is I've tried beef before - chunks, diced and ground. This is the first time I've tried strips though. I really hope this continues though. Frankenprey would make life easier.

I've read your transition thread, so I know about Flowerbelle. If Aria would eat like that, I would let her on the counter too! It's so weird though. Why would that matter? Cats! Who can figure out what they are thinking?

 

[otto]

I sometimes have to follow Queen Eva around with her dish and she tells me where she wants me to put it. Not so much since going raw, but when she has appetite issues, like after having the bone in meal, it started up again. I have pictures...of her eating in about 20 different places around the apartment. Maybe even a thread in TCS on it, somewhere.

Queen Eva and Jennie love beef.

 

[ldg]

I've read your transition thread, so I know about Flowerbelle. If Aria would eat like that, I would let her on the counter too! It's so weird though. Why would that matter? Cats! Who can figure out what they are thinking?

I can't BEGIN to imagine why it would matter! Perhaps it makes her feel "special," and that makes a difference? :dk: Maybe that's why hand-feeding works? No clue! :lol3:

 

[vball91]

I'm on Day 4 of Carnivorous Aria Watch, and I'm cautiously optimistic that the breakthrough is going to stick. She has eaten both beef and chicken strips, about 2oz a day in .5oz servings without a fuss and pretty quickly too. She's getting better at getting the strips in her mouth to chew instead of just licking it to the edge of the plate and having it fall off. I've been adding COTW and either probiotics or egg yolk lecithin to every meal and no issues with any of them.

She did regurgitate a beef meal yesterday, but I'm pretty confident that I served it too cold (as in ice crystals too cold - bad mommy) because I was in a hurry. I've made sure every other meal was fully thawed and no more regurgitation.

I just did an experiment with .5oz chicken thigh strips and .5oz beef strips on the same plate mixed up with the same supplements, and she ate .7oz of it which is great! However, she ate all the beef and left .3oz of the chicken behind. Coincidence or does she clearly prefer beef? I'm going to try turkey thigh strips later today once they thaw. I really hope she likes those. I am back to thinking that I can get on a schedule of feeding her 1oz of raw three times a day along with a healthy snack when I'm home.

Is it weird that I get such a huge feeling of satisfaction from watching her chew? I'm seriously on

 right now.

Now if only I can find unenhanced pork today! I could get a whole frozen duck at the Asian market, but I have no freezer room right now, so I need small packages. Once we clean out and re-organize our garage this summer, another fridge is going in there which has a bigger freezer, so I'll be ok then, but right now, my freezer is jam packed! My husband picked up baggies of ice cubes of frozen shrimp juice and shook his head and said, "This is cat food related, isn't it?" Yup, LOL. I'm tempted to get rid of the frozen ground portions in there just for the space, but I'm afraid to jinx it. With my luck, I'll get rid of those and she'll stop eating strips and want ground.

 

[ldg]

I know exactly how you feel! I was feeding commercial ground, and that first time I gave them cut up chicken... they were shaking it, growling, chomping... it just seemed so satisfying!

YAY Aria!

Wait till you're comfortable enough to offer some cut up chicken wing. My cats don't chew it into bites so much as just chomp on it, breaking up the bone inside the meat/skin, and then they swallow it. But you hear the CRUNCH CRUNCH CRUNCH. I happen to have 8 of them doing it at the same time - it's quite noisy. :lol3: Makes me smile every time! (I buy whole quail from Hare Today, and split up two of them between the 8 cats once a week).

 

[ldg]

Oh - and on the chicken vs. beef? I think you know because of Shel's semi-intolerance to red meat, I feed red meats 50/50 with white meats. They get beef/chicken breast and venison/turkey breast and lamb/chicken or turkey breast fed each week (2 meals of the day).

For Shel, he seems to need the red meat to hit his stomach with something already in it, so I put his red meat under the white meat, and he eats the breast then the red meat.

For Lazlo, sometimes he wants only the red meat, and sometimes he wants only the white meat. He usually eats all of one and a couple of bites of the other - so at these meals now, as he eats 1.5 ounces per meal, I actually put 1 ounce of each in his dish, next to each other, not mixed up like it is for everyone else. But from meal to meal, it totally changes whether he wants mostly the red meat or the white meat. :lol3:

 

[vball91]

I did know you did meals like that because of Shel but I didn't know that Lazlo was showing clear preferences at meal times. I guess I thought all of your cats were eating the 50/50 meals with equal gusto, but it makes sense to show some preferences at times. I might continue to offer 50/50 meals as well for at least a while.

Well, I did find unenhanced pork, at Walmart! They had a Farmland All Natural brand pork on sale even. Beautiful pork for $2.78/lb. I got a 2.5 lbs so I'm set on pork for a while.

About the chicken wings, if Aria keeps this up, I need to make a decision soon about COTW. I still have about 3/4 of the bottle left so I hate to waste it, but I really shouldn't introduce bone in meals while I'm still using COTW. I guess I could only use COTW sometimes and figure out to work in a bone in meal without giving her too much calcium.

Speaking of calcium, I know a lot of you target a Ca ratio of 1:1. How do I figure out what that ratio is if I'm using COTW?

 

[ldg]

Well, I know that I'm generally pretty anal about their diet, but the CoTW balances each meal individually. So while you do have to worry about the organs and calcium, it's not something that needs to be managed overnight, you know?

When Lazlo's in a CoTW phase, like he is now, if I feed him a meal of, let's say, Hare Today whole ground animal, I don't use the CoTW (obviously), I just treat it as if it's already balanced. But if I give him a bone-in meal, like quail (which I do once a week), if he eats it, I just skip the CoTW for two meals (or he gets constipated), and I feed him some freeze dried liver as a treat. ...and that's only because he won't eat fresh liver. It's not perfect, but when you use multiple methods, it's not difficult to adapt, and I'm confident he's getting what he needs. :rub:

But balancing isn't something that needs to be done overnight. You can work on it.

FYI, the Ca ratio of CoTW is 1.7:1. But if you figure out the amount of meat to use to "dilute" it down to 1:1, you'd be reducing the rest of the nutrients, which are already balanced for the amount of CoTW per meat. So I wouldn't look at it that way.

Did Aria not like eggshell? Or freeze dried bone (NOW calcium hydroxyapatite?) Because those are easy to also balance at each meal. :dk:

 

[vball91]

Thanks Laurie, as usual you have the info I was looking for. I haven't tried eggshell or MCHA yet since I still have so much COTW. I may try eggshell soon since I know she likes chicken liver. It's good to know you mix the supplements.

So I could use COTW for one meal of the day, then use eggshell/MCHA to balance out the meat of a second meal, feed S&C's FD alone for another meal. Then figure out the meat/calcium only portions and supplement the 5% liver/5% other secreting organ (which I still need to
source).

Should I give a little less calcium to bring down the Ca ratio of the COTW? I'm not sure why I'm worrying about it now, but the raw feeding seems so much more real and urgent now that she's actually eating raw regularly! Come to think of it I don't know what the Ca ratio is for the S&C FD Chicken! Is that something I need to worry about? I will probably continue to include it in rotation since she's really not liking raw chicken but loves the S&C chicken. Sorry about all the questions. This transition is turning out to be more complicated than I thought it was going to be.

 

[ldg]

So I could use COTW for one meal of the day, then use eggshell/MCHA to balance out the meat of a second meal, feed S&C's FD alone for another meal. Then figure out the meat/calcium only portions and supplement the 5% liver/5% other secreting organ (which I still need to source).

:nod: Exactly!

Should I give a little less calcium to bring down the Ca ratio of the COTW?

I don't. It is a little high - but whatever else is in there, it seems to really agree with Lazlo's digestive system. And it did for the other cats, when I used it with them. :nod: I still give them meals with CoTW sometimes. But Lazlo does really well on it. I know a number of people object to the non-animal based stuff in the supplement. But I'm not a "raw meat" purist in that sense, and with Lazlo being a cancer survivor, I like the antioxidants he gets from the supplement, which is why I keep it in rotation, and let him go through his phases rather than trying to keep him strict diet-all-the-other-cats eat.

The problem of "diluting" the CoTW use vs. the instructions, is that then you throw off the other vitamins per ounce of food, you know? And if Aria's not constipated from the higher Ca ratio with the CoTW, I wouldn't worry about it. Or I'd try not to.

I'm not sure why I'm worrying about it now, but the raw feeding seems so much more real and urgent now that she's actually eating raw regularly!

You're worrying about it because you care, and this is still new. I know that feeling! Just make this your mantra for now: "It doesn't have to be perfect, I have time to learn." Making your own food isn't something that has to be right immediately. It took me a couple of months to get the organs introduced, to figure out who would eat what without driving me insane, and figuring out alternatives. Thank goodness Carolina asked about using freeze dried in place of fresh. :lol3:

Come to think of it I don't know what the Ca ratio is for the S&C FD Chicken! Is that something I need to worry about? I will probably continue to include it in rotation since she's really not liking raw chicken but loves the S&C chicken. Sorry about all the questions. This transition is turning out to be more complicated than I thought it was going to be.

Well, you've read many of the transition threads, and for a lot of people, it is not straightforward. :lol3: Some kitties find their inner carnivore, and that's that - a lot of us had bumps along the way, or three steps forward, one step back. And in some instances, one step forward, three steps back. :lol3: The main thing is try to have fun with it - experimenting and NOT worrying - remembering that time IS on your side. :rub:

And S&C is complete and balanced as is. I don't remember the Ca ratio off-hand, but unlike Nature's Variety frozen raw stuff that seems to cause sensitive cats problems with constipation over time, I'm not aware of this being a problem at all with the S&C.

 

[vball91]

Aria is still eating raw beef strips like a champ. My current struggle is that she won't touch chicken, turkey, or Cornish game hen. At all! If it's the only thing offered, she just sniffs and walks away. If I mix it with the beef, she'll pick out and eat the beef only and leave the poultry. She will eat some pork if I mix it with beef, but beef is the clear favorite by far. I can't keep feeding her mostly beef! I'm obviously going to continue trying other meats, but does anyone have suggestions on what to try next that she might actually like? I'm just going to give up on the poultry for now and try again in a month or two, but I need to find some other proteins she will eat.

Also, I have no idea how I'm going to introduce bone-in meals since most of those are poultry based. Are there any non-poultry small boned animal parts that I should try?

Her diet right now is:

70% raw beef w/COTW

10% raw pork w/COTW

10% S&C's chicken dinner (cat version) - served rehydrated only

10% Ziwipeak Venison air-dried raw (ground then served rehydated like the S&C's). I was hoping this was going to be a good option to leave out when we're gone 24 hours, but like the S&C's, she doesn't like it dry.

 

[ldg]

Have you tried other red meats? Lamb? Venison? Buffalo?

Lamb we can get at the supermarket; the others, however, are usually available at a local butcher (though I've never fed my cats buffalo).

As to the bone... I don't think so. Rabbit surely fits the bill - ribs would be great starter bones. You have any way to source rabbit? Lazlo is also iffy on white meats at times (for him, I actually think it's the texture more than the smell), but he always likes rabbit meat.

 

[harleydiva]

Have you tried other red meats? Lamb? Venison? Buffalo?

Lamb we can get at the supermarket; the others, however, are usually available at a local butcher (though I've never fed my cats buffalo).

As to the bone... I don't think so. Rabbit surely fits the bill - ribs would be great starter bones. You have any way to source rabbit? Lazlo is also iffy on white meats at times (for him, I actually think it's the texture more than the smell), but he always likes rabbit meat.

n a week or so....hoping that will be acceptable to the little princes.  My guys used to eat chicken and turkey all right, but now they will only eat it with a bit of tripe mixed in, Rabbit is the #1 favorite at my house.  I have ground quail coming iand something like S&C crumbled on the top.  

 

[vball91]

Have you tried other red meats? Lamb? Venison? Buffalo?

Lamb we can get at the supermarket; the others, however, are usually available at a local butcher (though I've never fed my cats buffalo).

As to the bone... I don't think so. Rabbit surely fits the bill - ribs would be great starter bones. You have any way to source rabbit? Lazlo is also iffy on white meats at times (for him, I actually think it's the texture more than the smell), but he always likes rabbit meat.

I have tried lamb but only in the ground form which was not a big hit. I am planning on trying lamb strips soon though. I can source bison pretty easily here (I live in CO), so I do plan on trying that (it's not cheap!). Venison is tougher. I will have to see if I can get a little from some hunting friends.

Rabbit has been tough to source locally surprisingly. I guess I'm a little unsure of the sources. I don't have the freezer room right now to make a big online order but will have the room late this summer, so if I haven't found a local source by then, I'll try it then. The ironic thing is that when Aria was allowed out, she used to catch rabbits all the time and bring them back home. I don't know if she ever ate them though.

 

[vball91]

n a week or so....hoping that will be acceptable to the little princes.  My guys used to eat chicken and turkey all right, but now they will only eat it with a bit of tripe mixed in, Rabbit is the #1 favorite at my house.  I have ground quail coming iand something like S&C crumbled on the top.  

I tried dried tripe on Aria, and she flat out ran away from it. I sprinkled it on top of her food, and she sniffed it and backed away like it was poison, so I don't think I'll try the fresh version.