Need some help transitioning to Raw Feeding please

[vball91]

I had a rough night. Aria started in on me at 3:30am to wake up and feed her which I did. Then, she did it again at 6am. This, despite having her usual tbsp of Epigen 90 left out overnight which she finished. So somehow despite having 2 oz of raw and an oz of canned yesterday, she was still hungry, which is weird. I'm wondering if this is an effect of the probiotics which she started 3 days ago?

I'd be ecstatic if it caused her to eat more per feeding instead of being more hungry more often. Sigh.

 

[otto]

2 oz of raw and 1 oz of canned and 1 tablespoon of kibble doesn't sound like enough food to me. How much does she weigh? I'm sorry I've also forgotten how old she is.

My almost 3 year old 7 pound cat eats about 4.5 - 5 ounces of food a day, 50% raw, 50% canned. The older cats, who are 9 pounds 8 ounces (8 years old) and 10 pounds 4 ounces (9 years old) both eat 4.25 ounces of food a day, combination of raw and canned.

 

[vball91]

Hmm, she's 7 and about 7 lbs, moderately active. I would actually like her to eat more and gain back the lb she lost when she was sick in Dec, but she has never been a big eater (just a frequent eater). I plan on feeding her more today. I was just curious because this was new behavior and wondered if it was due to the probiotics.

 

[otto]

I would hazard a guess that because the probiotics make her feel better, her appetite has improved.

Keep in mind that the Epigen, though it claims low starch, still contains plant and grain proteins. If Aria is sensitive to grains that food is going to cause her trouble.

http://www.wysongepigen.net/ingredients.php

- Vegetable Protein (consisting of one or more of the following: Potato Protein, Rice Protein, Corn Protein, Wheat Protein): By special processing, the starches are removed. The remaining proteins and other important nutrient elements are then incorporated into Epigen[emoji]8482[/emoji]. The long protein chains help shape and bind the kibbles so that starches do not have to be used.

Removing the starch from a grain or root vegetable doesn't change the fact that cats are obligate carnivores and do not produce the proper enzymes to digest plant protein.

 

[vball91]

I would hazard a guess that because the probiotics make her feel better, her appetite has improved.

 

Keep in mind that the Epigen, though it claims low starch, still contains plant and grain proteins. If Aria is sensitive to grains that food is going to cause her trouble.

http://www.wysongepigen.net/ingredients.php
Removing the starch from a grain or root vegetable doesn't change the fact that cats are obligate carnivores and do not produce the proper enzymes to digest plant protein.

     Aria is not sensitive to sensitive to grains as far as I can tell, and Epigen 90 is the best kibble I can find. I would prefer to leave her freeze dried S&C's overnight, but so far she has completely rejected the 2 flavors I've tried. I am still hoping for the day when she can go the night without eating, but I'm doubtful it will ever happen, so I need alternatives. I've tried the Ziwipeak Venish and Fish snacks, and she didn't like those either. I haven't been able to find any small or sample packs of the Ziwipeak Lamb air-dried to try without paying ridiculous shipping, but I would like to see if Aria will like that.

 

[vball91]

Hooray, I have to take my own words back. Today, Aria ate the S&C's FD chicken meal. She sniffed and rejected it dry but rehydrating it did the trick. She even licked the bowl clean, which almost never happens. I'm so happy to find something she enjoys. Although it's weird that she rejected this before but she likes it now? I guess it's to offset the fact that she's now rejecting raw egg yolk which she did like before. I can't figure it out. Why does she like some things at some times but not others? I'm trying to rotate everything so that she doesn't get too tired of any one thing, so it makes no sense! Cats!

 

[otto]

Yay Aria!

Queen Eva will not eat the S&C every day. She will eat the chicken two days in a row but not three. She will eat the duck once or twice a week, but not two days in a row. But she will not eat S&C past three days in a row. Meaning she will eat (one meal per day) chicken, day 1, chicken day 2, duck day 3, then I must skip at least one day, better two, before starting that rotation again.

She's the same with the few canned foods she gets too. She will not eat the same canned food two days in a row. (I feed a combo canned, commercial raw, and homemade raw) The home made portions are on a 7 day rotation so she never rejects any of them. :lol3:

 

[vball91]

If I'm using COTW to balance her raw meat meals, how does tripe fit in? If I want to add tripe which I know is Ca balanced, I assume I don't need to add COTW to it because it doesn't need more bone? However, what about taurine, etc.?

I would like to add chicken liver to her meals because I gave her a little taste of it, and she seems to like it. My sense is that I can't really add liver while using COTW (at least not for very long) because that would be too much liver in her diet. Is my thinking accurate or is there a way to balance these separately using individual supplements while still using COTW on the meat meals?

 

[ldg]

Well, liver is such a small component of the diet, in my opinion, it's OK to overlap the CoTW for a little while with meat and liver meals, because she will need the calcium with the liver.

But you don't need the calcium with the tripe, so I wouldn't use the CoTW with it.

 

[vball91]

Thanks Laurie. Would it be better to just supplement calcium with the liver/meat meals? I plan on using the COTW until I run out of it which will be a long while, but eventually I would like to get her off that and onto individual supplements (although I have no idea at this point how I'm going to wean her off of COTW because she loves it so much). I could just buy calcium and taurine now rather than later.

 

[ldg]

Well, I had mschauer run an analysis of the CoTW both feeding with and without liver, and it wasn't approaching the safe limit of vitamin A, so long as you're using chicken liver, not turkey liver. :nod: But it would be better to use just eggshell or MCHA as a calcium supplement with meat and liver meals, just because she'll have to get used to that anyway. :lol3: But because she loves the CoTW so much, maybe use half the recommended amount, and 1/2 the amount of whatever calcium supplement needed? (Through the transition???)

 

[harleydiva]

Regarding the tripe.....I use Alnutrin with my ground meat/bone/organ mixes.  Since I am using 20% raw green tripe with my non-rabbit mixes, I asked Marta at Alternative Nutrition about how to mix the Alnutrin with the mixes when I am adding the green tripe.  I found the nutritional profile on the tripe, and sent it to her (www.greentripe.com).  She is going to enter the tripe profile into their nutritional calculator, and figure out how to do the supplement.  In the meantime, she told me to just add enough Alnutrin to cover the 80% meat mix, and not to supplement the tripe itself.  

 

[vball91]

Regarding the tripe.....I use Alnutrin with my ground meat/bone/organ mixes.  Since I am using 20% raw green tripe with my non-rabbit mixes, I asked Marta at Alternative Nutrition about how to mix the Alnutrin with the mixes when I am adding the green tripe.  I found the nutritional profile on the tripe, and sent it to her (www.greentripe.com).  She is going to enter the tripe profile into their nutritional calculator, and figure out how to do the supplement.  In the meantime, she told me to just add enough Alnutrin to cover the 80% meat mix, and not to supplement the tripe itself.  

That's what I'm going to do with the COTW, just add enough for the meat, not the tripe.

BTW, it was your posts on green tripe that got me interested in it, so thanks. It sounds like the kind of thing Aria would like.

And I need something for when the COTW will not be used.

 

[harleydiva]

Here is the response from Alternative Nutrition on supplementation with adding green tripe to the meat mixes...

"I did the calculations with the green tripe and boneless meat. I realize that you are using meat/bone/organ but I just wanted to see what difference the addition of 2lb of green tripe to 8 lb of any  meat would make. It did not make too much difference. Calcium to phosphorus ratio changed only by 0.06, all other nutrients also did not change too much except iron and manganese, which went up a little with addition of tripe. You'll be fine adding enough Alnutrin for just the 8 pounds of meat mix, you don't need to add more for the additional 2 pounds of tripe."

 

[vball91]

That is nice to have confirmation. Thanks HarleyDiva.

 

[vball91]

Boy, it's been a while since I've updated my transition thread. I started keeping a much more detailed journey and things had been going well up until 5 days ago. Aria started vomiting once a day (so 4 times total), just a little, mostly clear with some hair, well after meals but not long enough to be a stomach acid build-up issue. She seemed absolutely fine otherwise until yesterday when her appetite seemed off. I was starting to get worried and thinking about a vet visit, but today she's back to normal, no vomiting, eating normally. So I'm not sure what's going on. Here's what I'm thinking:

1. Hairballs from shedding season? She has occasionally hacked up hairballs in the past, so this wouldn't be new. I started her on egg yolk lecithin yesterday to see if it helps. I'm also brushing her with a slicker brush at least once a day (luckily she loves being brushed).

2. System reset from raw needed (a la Carolina's Mac or CatNamedPanda's Boo)? I haven't fed her any raw since Sunday and will give her a little break from raw just in case.

3. Problem with bones (a la Carolina's Lucky) in Stella & Chewy's? I only feed her this in rotation (maybe a 1/4 of a small package a day), so I'm doubtful that this is the problem. Plus, she's only had about 5 small packages in total to date. She doesn't eat anything else with bone yet.

4. Temporary stomach upset from something? Something else completely? I'm obviously keeping a close eye on her, but if you have any suggestions/ideas, I would appreciate the feedback.

 

[peaches08]

I live on the coast of GA near FL and it has been hairball season for over 3 months here. Mine get raw egg yolk in their ground/chunks, but I still had to throw a package of hairball treats down to knock it out.

 

[vball91]

peaches, do your cats ever get any inappetance from hacking up hairballs?

 

[peaches08]

I haven't noticed any anorexia from it, but mine only get fed twice a day. They eat right then, then later I'll see the undigested food plus hair. Or they'll vomit clear with hair if it is long between meals. Sometimes just clear with no hair, but even then I can count on it being hairballs 90% of the time. While I'm lucky that my cats get along so well, the constant grooming of each other isn't settling well on their stomachs! LOL

It would make sense that a cat may not have much appetite if they have a hairball somewhere in their GI tract though. When something is just sitting in my stomach, I don't want to eat.

 

[vball91]

Hmm, well, whatever it was is gone. She's eating with gusto (well, for her) and back to being completely normal. It was only 12 hours so I'm wondering if the vomiting just upset her stomach so she didn't want to eat.