Kittens, Raw and Clostridium - safety?

[droogcat]

Hi @DroogCat, how are you giving the s. Boulardii (which one are you giving) ? It only works if you give every 12 hours. So you need to give 1/2 dose in the morning, and 1/2 at night.
While treating with Boulardii I used no other probiotics.
After one month, I changed for another probiotic called Nexabiotic, which also contains Boulardii, also giving 1/2 capsule in the morning and 1/2 at night. Nexabiotic is a multi-strain.

@Carolina:  So glad to hear your crew is doing great!

I'm giving a human form available in France ("Ultra Levure") in a sweet powder form, which both cats adjusted to in their food after about 4 days, fortunately!

I believe I read some member's posts that S.B. must be given with their meal or they'll keep having symptoms, no? If I give it at 12 hour intervals, they would not get to eat until 9:30pm at night which is 5 hours later than usual, a BIG adjustment for them...!  Have you heard if it works when given with meals...?

Are you continuing to give the Nexabiotics then (and by food or by pill)?

Thanks so much for your time and help!

Shawn

 

[carolina]

Hi Shawn, I have no idea what you heard... But s Boulardii doesn't populate the gut reason why It must be given every 12 hours...
It doesn't need to be given with food... But it must be given every 12 hours to work... That's what you are missing, I would be pretty confident to guess.
I just sprinkle the Nexabiotic on their morning and evening meals, which are roughly 12 hours apart.

 

[carolina]

What are the ingredients on ultra levure?

 

[mschauer]

What are the ingredients on ultra levure?

 

Synonyms

Brewer's yeast, Florastor[emoji]174[/emoji], Florastor[emoji]174[/emoji] Kids, Hansen CBS 5926, Lactobacillus,Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus bulgaricus, Lactobacillus gasseri,Lactobacillus  GG, Lactobacillus plantarum, Perenterol[emoji]174[/emoji], probiotic, S.  boulardii,Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Saccharomyces salivarius, Saccharomyces thermophilus, Saccharomycetaceae (family), Ultra-Levure[emoji]174[/emoji], yeast.

All of those are synonyms of one another? That doesn't seem right does it????

 

[carolina]

All of those are synonyms of one another? That doesn't seem right does it????

no, it doesn't.... And s Boulardii is most certainly not sweet like she describe her product to be... (which is why I asked for the ingredients)
Brewers yeast is not s Boulardii.... Florastor is, just another brand, sold in different countries.

 

[droogcat]

Hi Shawn, I have no idea what you heard... But s Boulardii doesn't populate the gut reason why It must be given every 12 hours...
It doesn't need to be given with food... But it must be given every 12 hours to work... That's what you are missing, I would be pretty confident to guess.
I just sprinkle the Nexabiotic on their morning and evening meals, which are roughly 12 hours apart.

I see...I thought it was just important to give with each meal to prevent the diarrhea after they ate. I realize now that I was giving the amount in food which both cats have access to, and there's a chance he was not eating enough of it. So, today I started giving them separate plates (really hard to do, but must try). The Ultra Levure active ingredient is S. Boulardii, but when I opened the pamphlet inside, it says it also contains lactose monohydrate, saccharose (saccharin?), magnesium stearate. All of those additives can cause loose bowels in humans, don't they, especially during the adjustment phase, but I think they are through that by now.

I will slowly try to move their night meal from 4:30pm to 8:00pm if I can (would 11 hours be okay? They get fed at 8:30-9am in the morning and that's early enough for a retiree like me !) 

 

[catspaw66]

 
I will slowly try to move their night meal from 4:30pm to 8:00pm if I can (would 11 hours be okay? They get fed at 8:30-9am in the morning and that's early enough for a retiree like me !) 

My ladies get fed at around 9:30 morning and evening.  I think that as long as you are fairly consistent, there should be no problem. Julie and Silly both get l-lysine, so that's why I try to feed 12 hours apart. I sometimes get their meals a little later or earlier, but anything within an hour of normal doesn't seem to make that much difference.

 

[droogcat]

 
All of those are synonyms of one another? That doesn't seem right does it????

Hello! 

Remember, the word "synonym" means similar but not the same (so the different strains are within the general reference of probiotics from yeast). Thanks for the article link--a good overview of the studies.. ....Yet, they did not make mention of Clostridrium perfringens in the general literature. But, as Caroline has mentioned, it is out there, just harder to find.

Will try the new way of giving it to Sabu this week and see if there's a difference...hopefully! Good news is that some of the dose was getting through since the amount and odor of his stool has decreased significantly. Now for the final "lap" of firming them up (removing that water producing toxin!).

Anyone have success with Slippery Elm (or is it's best use in the first few days of infection?...). Also, should I be adding fiber (like flax meal which I have on hand, or buy some psyllium?).

Merci all--enjoy your upcoming weekend!

 
My ladies get fed at around 9:30 morning and evening.  I think that as long as you are fairly consistent, there should be no problem. Julie and Silly both get l-lysine, so that's why I try to feed 12 hours apart. I sometimes get their meals a little later or earlier, but anything within an hour of normal doesn't seem to make that much difference.

Thanks, Catspaw66! It helps to know there are others like you who have to feed on that schedule. But, I imagine after 10 years of eating between 4-6pm, it will take some time to move them to almost 9pm! From what I've read on S. Boulardii probiotic, it's a function of giving to them when they eat, not necessarily 12 hours apart. Will have to ask Caroline which study mentioned that. Guess I can start with feeding separately to be sure they get the entire amount of S.B., and if not better, start changing the hours they eat.

All the best with your "ladies" !

 

[carolina]

It is 12 hours apart because of the fact that it doesn't populate the gut. You want to give it twice a day consistently so you keep it at level on the gut.
When treating something as serious as Clostridium, you want to make sure you are not only giving the doses consistently, but also the full dosage- you already saw this is a nasty bug to get rid of, even with antibiotics. Sprinkling on a common plate is not the route you want to take here, Imho.
You can either give it twice a day on the food, or you can pill twice a day- no matter what, make sure your kitty gets all 250mg (or 5 billion CFU) by the end of the day.
I never seen anything about how giving with or without food makes any difference. I have given to mine in the food, and when they didn't want to eat it, I pilled them. I just made sure they got the full amount they were supposed to, in the morning and at night.
droogcat , how much S. BOULARDII is in each capsule?

 

[carolina]

To answer your question, an hour or so here and there won't affect the results.
Do you feed your cats twice a day? Can you split the amounts in three? Feed them three meals instead?
S Boulardii does much more than prevent diarrhea when they eat- it is there to kill Clostridium and prevent the bacteria from attaching to the intestinal walls.
You are really in treatment mode....... Amazingly enough, even though this is not an antibiotic, the reason I chose this path is because Clostridium has a high reccurring rate, and when treated with S Boulardii the chances of recurring drop by nearly 50% compared to antibiotics.... Which is why also I keep mine on a small maintenance dose.
I am at a supermarket now, but will be here later to answer any questions you might have.

 

[droogcat]

To answer your question, an hour or so here and there won't affect the results.
Do you feed your cats twice a day? Can you split the amounts in three? Feed them three meals instead?
S Boulardii does much more than prevent diarrhea when they eat- it is there to kill Clostridium and prevent the bacteria from attaching to the intestinal walls.
You are really in treatment mode....... Amazingly enough, even though this is not an antibiotic, the reason I chose this path is because Clostridium has a high reccurring rate, and when treated with S Boulardii the chances of recurring drop by nearly 50% compared to antibiotics.... Which is why also I keep mine on a small maintenance dose.
I am at a supermarket now, but will be here later to answer any questions you might have.

I appreciate you sharing your thinking on this, Caroline, it helps alot!  

I did not know that C.P. had a high return rate. And, feeding three times/day may be a good way to help them adjust to the later feeding. Thank you!  (They currently are fed twice/day, but as with many cats, they tend to eat a little at a time.)

The S.B. that I have is in 2 capsules: A 200 mg capsule + 50 mg. capsule which I mix into Sabu's wet food. I'm amazed how he's adapted to the higher dose, because at first he wouldn't touch it. So, it was a good "accident" that I gave them a lower amount at first. Now, he eats even the full 250mg dose twice/day--yay!  

 I have to also be careful when I change their habits to not throw off the delicate balance for my other cat, Emma, who has IBD. Any idea whether it is necessary to taper the SB slowly if reducing it (In her case, I dropped from 125 to 50 mg which may have caused her an upset bowel, or it may have been something else). 

Can't wait to see if giving the full amount to Sabu will make the difference. My only concern is that because he wasn't diagnosed properly at first, that his intestines experienced damage. He's always been such as strong boy, so I can only hope he pulls through 100%! 

  

Any thoughts on Emma are appreciated...She had a really soft/smelly stool this morning, which may have been from a bite of my fish dinner which may have not been all good, since it caused me a little upset, too. So, I gave her a little syringe of slippery elm, 1/8 tsp in a little water. Will also try Arsenicum Album (Homeopathic meds which usually take care of minor upsets). In general, do you think adding psyllium to their food would help them both as prevention, since they seem to be having more upsets since I moved to France (stress, and diet change certainly didn't help :-/).  

Thanks again, Caroline! 

!!!

 

[carolina]

I would just start treating both of them ASAP, don't wait... Clostridium can do major damage...
Also.... Like I said.... I didn't do a bunch of things.... I used one probiotic only- Boulardii.
Treat them for the full month... Then put them on the maintenance dose of Nexabiotic.... Or another probiotic that contains Boulardii.
In cases like these, i believe less is more...
Boulardii is what I use here for digestive upsets... Nothing more.
I didn't taper mine off of it.... I might have given half dose for a couple of days, and then straight to Nexabiotic.... I will Continue with Nexabiotic indefinitely.
Good luck!

 

[droogcat]

I would just start treating both of them ASAP, don't wait... Clostridium can do major damage...
Also.... Like I said.... I didn't do a bunch of things.... I used one probiotic only- Boulardii.
Treat them for the full month... Then put them on the maintenance dose of Nexabiotic.... Or another probiotic that contains Boulardii.
In cases like these, i believe less is more...
Boulardii is what I use here for digestive upsets... Nothing more.
I didn't taper mine off of it.... I might have given half dose for a couple of days, and then straight to Nexabiotic.... I will Continue with Nexabiotic indefinitely.
Good luck!

Thanks, Carolina!!!  Emma doesn't have Clostridrium, it's just one of her IBD flare-ups which happens 2-3x/year. I'll likely give her a maintenance dose of S.B. now though.

The good news is after one immediate treatment of Slippery Elm, followed later by some S.B., she had a normal poo this afternoon (tho' a little smelly). I think she just had an IBD upset from some cooked fish that may have been "off."  Will take your advice to keep them both on this stuff for the next month. Then to Nexabiotic/something similar as you mentioned. It does seem SB is a miracle solution! 

Have a great day and thanks again for the advice and encouragement! 

 

[carolina]

Good luck, and report back!