Is This Play? Or Is This Fighting? How Do You Tell The Difference?

[pearl99]

I am going to disagree with the others. When cats play it's usually a back and forth, not a stalking like the black one is doing. The tabby keeps hiding under something so that the black one can't get on top of her.
Usually when cats play there is a back and forth, not one that is always initiating it. These are my two. Very soft bites, no claws. Back and forth

Agreed- one thing I see different though is the age and size difference with cheeseburger's kitties- 2yrs. vs. 6 months. And the mutual kitties video they look more the same age and size? But for sure the mutual reciprocal is the best scenario.

 

[She's a witch]

I am going to disagree with the others. When cats play it's usually a back and forth, not a stalking like the black one is doing. The tabby keeps hiding under something so that the black one can't get on top of her.
Usually when cats play there is a back and forth, not one that is always initiating it. These are my two. Very soft bites, no claws. Back and forth

In an ideal world, two cats just meet and play like your kitties but in this thread we have a recent introduction of 2yo and 6mo cats, so I think it's unrealistic to expect such fun way of playing since they sort of have known each other for 3 weeks only, and the older cat was a lone cat. I've seen such introductions, but mostly very very young kittens were involved. I'd say that given the phase these two cats are in, they're on the right track to be play buddies.

 

[SDerailed]

In an ideal world, two cats just meet and play like your kitties but in this thread we have a recent introduction of 2yo and 6mo cats, so I think it's unrealistic to expect such fun way of playing since they sort of have known each other for 3 weeks only, and the older cat was a lone cat. I've seen such introductions, but mostly very very young kittens were involved. I'd say that given the phase these two cats are in, they're on the right track to be play buddies.

I totally agree with you. My black one was doing the stalking thing to my tabby one at first too. I wouldnt call it playing or fighting though. Its definitely checking out and curious. And you are right, they are moving towards playing.

 

[cheeseburger]

Some amazing thoughts here guys - I so appreciate everyone's input. SDerailed - I agree that the play isn't reciprocal yet which makes it a little bit more bully like. Lando (the big black cat) definitely stalks Ahsoka (the little grey cat) and follows her around the house. She being a typical kitten is more interested in toys than she is in him. Whereas I think Lando is having typical territorial concerns.

Lando's always been a cat with a very strong hunting instinct. When we first got him, he had been a street cat his whole life and he hunted my husband and I for three months in the house. It took a while for him to adjust to us and realize that we were not friends and not prey. I'm hoping he can make the same adjustment with the kitten with time. I know he's capable of much greater violence than he is showing her, so I'm hoping this is just a lot of bluster and show to make sure she knows he is top cat.

Ahsoka is also very new to all of this. She was a kitten living on the outskirts of a feral cat colony and this is her first time living in a house. She's terrified of things like the television and the toilet, but is adapting so incredibly quickly for a little over three weeks in, I'm hoping she will adjust to a slightly bully cat as well. She still seems undeterred. After that video showing the 'attack', she jumped right back onto the bed.

We just got back from the vet. It was a three scratches on his belly. Lando is now wearing a very undignified cone and running into walls.

I think we will keep them separated while Lando still needs the cone and then take the gate down and let them mingle for longer periods (2-3 hours at a time). Does that seem reasonable?

 

[ArtNJ]

Definitely separate them while Lando is wearing the cone. I think it would be terrifying having a bigger cat trying to play rough while wearing that thing and unable to run away/hide properly. Not to mention, might reopen the wounds.

And definitely try and address the nail situation if you don't already.

Seeing how they do in stretches of a couple of hours sounds reasonable once they are interacting. If things calm down by hour 2 or 3 you might let it go all day.

A good part of the current difficulty might be that the scratches HURT. Cats can definitely get on the wrong path if a stray nail causes meaningful pain. So part of what you are doing with the current separation is resetting things. Letting them see and smell each other through baby gates will help a ton with that.

 

[She's a witch]

I'll just add that not only his cone might be terrifying for her, but also he may behave unpredictably with it, so by all means keep them separated - I'd actually worry that she could learn how to jump through the baby gate on the stairs? That would be a bad timing

 

[cheeseburger]

Agreed! We have a higher gate upstairs in her safe room, so we'll try to keep her up there the next few days while he heals. She's not going to like it, but I think she'll like being chased by a literal conehead even less.

And yes, we will cut her nails again. Do kitten nails grow more quickly? We cut Lando's every three weeks and that's plenty (he scratches a TON), but we cut Ahsoka's five days ago and they are already razor sharp again! Maybe different cats just grow at different rates.

 

[ArtNJ]

I never managed to cut nails for very long, so I'm not an expert, but yeah, every 5 days seems like a ton! Once they are playing again, if you find more scratches, you might have to conclude that the bigger cat just isnt good about retracting the nails and consider nail caps. A stray scratch once in a while isn't usually a big deal, but if the bigger cat is too rough and they are frequent or deap, thats another thing. But cross that bridge if you get there.

 

[1 bruce 1]

I never managed to cut nails for very long, so I'm not an expert, but yeah, every 5 days seems like a ton! Once they are playing again, if you find more scratches, you might have to conclude that the bigger cat just isnt good about retracting the nails and consider nail caps. But cross that bridge if you get there. A stray scratch once in a while isn't usually a big deal.

When our cats get overgrown claws, they get them stuck in places like rugs, cat trees, or on gates. We liken this to a hangnail on humans, it gets hung up on all kinds of things and the only solution is to trim it or deal with it, and trimming is the best option. Claws are like teeth, kittens can learn not to bite but they need to learn how to use their claws too, and if this cat never learned that with other cats this might explain the scratches.

cheeseburger I did like those first videos you posted, the cats that have been living together for years we have still play like that. Bad cat fights are stalking, staring, and not letting up and attacking and really doing damage and causing harm.
It's not a fun thing to watch, but as a comparison, here's a 3 minute long video of a "real" cat fight. It's not a comfortable thing to view (no blood or gore or injuries), but it should make you notice the difference in body language.
Also, these are NOT our cats! just a random video on you tube I looked up so you could compare.

 

[ArtNJ]

That was kind of a weird one with how casual they got in parts. I'm more used to explosive action once it gets going and then one running. But the noises and tails are typical.

 

[pearl99]

but I think she'll like being chased by a literal conehead even less.

 

[cheeseburger]

I just wanted to thank everybody for their advice the last few days and provide an update. Lando escaped his cone three separate times so we gave up on it and are just trying to interrupt any wound licking we see.

After the cone came off, Ahsoka and Lando wouldn't stop meowing at each other through the gate, so we took the gate down. The first day was a little dicey: lots of chasing and hissing and a few minor spats. Neither cat rested all day. We separated them while we slept.

Today on day two of together time, after three hours of much more playful, reciprocal chasing, both cats are asleep on the cat tree together. They are on separate levels (our big resident cat on top, obviously), but are clearly starting to become comfortable with each other's company.

I know we have some distance to go, but seeing them relax around each other is a place I wasn't sure we would ever get. I am just so happy and relieved. Thanks to all of you for your wise advice and for helping me push through my anxiety about the situation. <3

 

[She's a witch]

so happy to read it! Good luck to Lando and Ahsoka and their humans, may the Force be with you!!

 

[pearl99]

Lovely update! Thanks, always like to hear them. I think you'll have fun watching them and their antics.

 

[Danglos]

Leo had a new brother we added after his sister Poppy died. Rocky was TOO young we didn't realise only 6-7 weeks and Leo aggressively dominated the poor thing. Mind you Rocky was very odd and yet cute as he hopped up and down like the proverbial kangaroo whenever he saw his reflection. He didn't eat, was unwell and died on his 4th day with us. Very shocking. The lady was dodgy and sold dozens of cats who were ill and died within 2 weeks, ours was the first to die so quickly. BUT the autopsy was inconclusive so we'll never know whether Leo bullied him to death or he was simply too young or defective. It was tragic. We then had Jessie who we thought would be his friend and sometimes they would sleep next to each other but a situation triggered conflict and we started to have 6 hour a day cat wars! This didn't work out.

Fast forward and today Milo our 9 month is the boss cat of a 5 and 2x 4 month boys, and when we've introduced them I've had to wait days or weeks for him to engage the new cats in a dominance fight. Kittens are unsure of new places, territory and feline friends. It was healthy for them to be dominated and find the pecking order and then things settled down. Yes we had cats hide for 2-3 weeks before becoming more confident. But recent addition Ollie had an accidental day one intro to his three new brothers and unlike the others - despite being surrounded (he's also been calm the entire 3.5 hour car journey) he sauntered out confidently, didn't back of to hissing, raised a warning paw when threatened and has been a confident boy.

I remember being told when we had our first son what would we like a baby who slept through the night like a dream, a baby who needed constant nappy change, a noisy keep you away baby, or a cute lovely baby. Only then we learned that it was the same child just depends on their mood, energy levels and other stimulus! The point is kittens are all unique at different times. A settled kitten has lots of energy. A stressed kitten might be sick or not eat. Kitten play is normally backwards and forwards but that's too soon. You are still on introductions, territorial, dominance and ownership of the human. You need calming spray of Felliway plug in and to concentrate on playing with your cats separately to tire them out, then feed them together so they have good association with each other but too tired to really do much with each other. Tired cats will even sleep near each other and start the process of creating a "family/new household smell"