Is This Play? Or Is This Fighting? How Do You Tell The Difference?

[cheeseburger]

We're 3+ weeks into a cat introduction with our 2yo black male resident cat, and a 6mo old tabby female new kitten, both fixed, both prior strays.

They eat delightfully next to each other with no gate and play paws and touch noses through the gate. But then we let them hang out and pandemonium starts. They both ignore toys and our resident cat seems to bully and chase the new kitten all over the house.

I've uploaded two videos that are back-to-back in a joint play session (where they are ignoring me and the toys and treats I've offered). The first video looks like play to me, but the second one gets quite aggressive, with our resident cat's ears flat back and our new cat hissing.

What I'm looking for is advice on where to go from here.
1. Should I continue play sessions and just try to break this up when body language is bad?
2. Should we go backwards in introductions and continue to keep them separated for a while longer?
3. Should I let this play itself out?

Those are the three options forward that I see. Thanks for your help.

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
I'm not clear either, but maybe this post and actually the entire thread might be of help;
Need Advice Here, New Cat Won't Leave Laundry Room.

 

[DreamerRose]

They are just playing. If you hear growling and hissing and one or both has its ears flattened out, then they are fighting; at least, one is saying to back off. My two chase around the house all the time, and sometimes there is a multi-colored fur ball rolling across the room.

I'd say let them work it out unless you hear cries of alarm.

 

[DreamerRose]

They are just playing. If you hear growling and hissing and one or both has its ears flattened out, then they are fighting; at least, one is saying to back off. My two chase around the house all the time, and sometimes there is a multi-colored fur ball rolling across the room.

I'd say let them work it out unless you hear cries of alarm.

 

[cheeseburger]

They are just playing. If you hear growling and hissing and one or both has its ears flattened out, then they are fighting; at least, one is saying to back off. My two chase around the house all the time, and sometimes there is a multi-colored fur ball rolling across the room.

I'd say let them work it out unless you hear cries of alarm.

Hi dreamerrose - I don't know if you watched the last 30 seconds of the last video, but my black cat has ears flattened and the other cat hisses in response. So I guess they are fighting?

 

[ArtNJ]

Its 100% playing on the part of black kitty, but gray kitty is so much smaller that its totally normal grey kitty doesn't have nearly as much enthusiasm and wants to run away at times. I'm not picking up on any signals that grey kitty is *overly* stressed, and I'm guessing that there are times when black kitty is chill that they hang together. If this was a real problem, grey kitty would tell you by avoiding black kitty at all times and hissing even if black kitty was not in the chasing mood.

Hopefully this should improve as grey kitty continues to grow. There is still a lot of growing to be done -- although that is a fairly small 6 months, so they may never be fully equal. Still, it should improve some regardless.

 

[DreamerRose]

Hi dreamerrose - I don't know if you watched the last 30 seconds of the last video, but my black cat has ears flattened and the other cat hisses in response. So I guess they are fighting?

Yes. I didn't see that. I break up my two if it gets like that by shouting at the aggressor, usually Mingo. Mingo bullies Lily too.

 

[She's a witch]

To me, the black kitty definitely wants to play and he’s actually super excited to have a play buddy, probably too excited for her at this point. I’d say the tabby one wants to play too but she’s unsure yet. I don’t see the flattened ears in the second video, to me it’s the playful pre-pounce movement with the tail wagging (when you play with your black kitty with some toy and he’s hunting it, observe and compare his movement).
It seems she doesn’t know yet how to proceed, she hissed but only after you verbally interfered. She feels more playful when not in the open, so more smaller spaces she can hide, the better for her. My theory is that by your hissing you sort of let her think that he’s doing something wrong, which personally I don’t think he is. But as you see, this is the matter of interpretation, as I don’t see bullying here ) To me, she wants to play with him, and if she gets used to know him, she’ll be confident.

How long do they get to be together for these play sessions?

Personally, I’d totally end the separation. Right now he gets too excited because they have limited time. I’d risk that they’ll get used to each other faster once they’re together all the time.

BUT- in your previous thread you said she’s got sick of stress? I’m hoping there was a different cause as to me, it looks they have a potential to be great play mates!
I also have a tabby female that is smaller than the black male and they get on great, in fact she’s the one trying to be more dominant. So her being smaller (females usually are) doesn’t necessarily mean she’ll be unsure like this for longer.

 

[ArtNJ]

Oh I didn't notice the separation, I totally agree with She's a witch . Separation causes the bigger cat to view getting to see the smaller as a present on Christmas Morning. OMG! I get to PLAY NOW! And as a result, smaller kitty only sees hyper big kitty and is more anxious about it. If together all the time, then smaller kitty will also get to see the more calm side of the bigger one and it will improve the relationship.

It is important for you to understand that there absolutely can be great stress to the scared/less eager kitty even if the other just wants to play. We are NOT saying this isn't a real problem. Its just that your current post doesn't mention this level of stress and its not obvious from the video that there is high stress. So we are giving more general advice. *If* the small kitty is really suffering from bad stress, our advice might be different -- a reintroduction might be in order. Reintroductions don't fully solve the differences in willingness to play for obvious reasons, but at least the small kitty might start out with less fear of the bigger one. By contrast, trying to manage stress by having only limited time together each day is a flawed strategy because of the "its Christmas morning" effect -- it just makes the big cat too excited when back together, and little cat only sees overly excited big cat. Thus, while a small break to give a stressed cat some one on one love is a good thing, substantial isolated time is counter-productive in my opinion.

 

[cheeseburger]

Thanks everybody. I was very concerned that the vomiting from little grey kitty was a stress response because it coincided with the first few times big black kitty got rough and chasey. But it has not recurred since, and then I found out my husband fed little kitty like fifteen treats in a short period of time so... At this time I am now blaming treat overload + sprinting for the vomit everywhere instead of a fear response.

If she were truly scared she wouldn't be meowing constantly asking to be let out to be in the same area as big black kitty, right?

The two cats are currently separated by a baby gate on the stairs. Little kitty is living upstairs and big kitty downstairs. They get fed together and see each other several times a day as little kitty likes to sit on the bottom stair and meow to be let out.

Over the last week we have been doing two joint play sessions a day, one in the morning, one at night. We end them when things get too rough, but they usually go 30-45 minutes. The first 10 minutes are usually pretty tame, and then it escalates, so the theories about black kitty getting over-excited may be accurate.

What I'm hearing from everybody is that it may be time to just let them live together, co-exist, and work out some of their stuff so they can get to the point of post-play comfort and relaxation. I think we'll give that a go this weekend when we can supervise all weekend and make sure nobody gets hurt.

Thank you all for the advice!

 

[Kieka]

It looks like fairly normal play to me with the little one being done towards the end of the second video. Makes me think they are still learning boundaries and limits for each other. The little one is standing up for herself and saying "done" but the black on is pushing a little further. I would step in at that point and distract the black one or provide a safety spot for the little one the black one can't get to. My situation is slightly reversed as Nightfury is the bigger one who has enough, but he can jump higher and goes on top of the dryer where the others can't reach when he is done. Rocket, my little one, will get mad and aggressive if the boys push her too far which usually results in a quick retreat on their part.

Here are some play videos of my crew that could help a little. In the second one, you can hear little Rocket yelling but that is 100% her play voice. Don't ask me why she's so loud but that is the only time she gets loud. She's done playing when she gets this mad look on her face, little odd ball.

View media item 421929View media item 420658

 

[cheeseburger]

It looks like fairly normal play to me with the little one being done towards the end of the second video. Makes me think they are still learning boundaries and limits for each other. The little one is standing up for herself and saying "done" but the black on is pushing a little further. I would step in at that point and distract the black one or provide a safety spot for the little one the black one can't get to. My situation is slightly reversed as Nightfury is the bigger one who has enough, but he can jump higher and goes on top of the dryer where the others can't reach when he is done. Rocket, my little one, will get mad and aggressive if the boys push her too far which usually results in a quick retreat on their part.

Here are some play videos of my crew that could help a little. In the second one, you can hear little Rocket yelling but that is 100% her play voice. Don't ask me why she's so loud but that is the only time she gets loud. She's done playing when she gets this mad look on her face, little odd ball.

View media item 421929View media item 420658

Kieka - those videos were **SO HELPFUL** - thank you! They really do look like what my black cat is doing. The crazy tail and the slow motion paw batting especially. The little kitty may not be as into it which is why it looks so one-sided right now. But it is comforting to know that this is normal cat play and that my black cat isn't trying to eat the kitten! I am going to try to look at their interactions today through the lens of play. Thank you SO MUCH for this!

 

[Furballsmom]

 

[ArtNJ]

Very few young playful cats give a rat's behind if the other cat in the house actually wants to play. I adopted one of my current two from a home with a three legged cat, and I swear I saw the kitten jump on her a dozen times while I was there while she tried her best to hop away. It is also super common when one is a lot bigger. There is really nothing much for it, since you can't teach a cat not to be playful. So you let them work through it, maybe try to distract the playful cat if the reluctant cat appears particularly unhappy, and give a small break now and then (small to avoid the christmas morning effect).

 

[cheeseburger]

Perhaps you kind souls can watch and translate one more brief video for me. Black cat had been playing on the bed with a wand toy. Grey kitty jumped up to investigate and join the play. This was the resulting confrontation. Should I interpret this as black cat just jumping on her to play, and grey kitty overreacting?


After this encounter, I realized that black cat was licking a spot on his stomach that on further investigation looks like a bite puncture mark, I'm assuming from one of yesterday's encounters with grey kitty. I'm going to take him into the vet today to get looked at because he's licked all the fur around it off. I'm guessing this is going to set back my plans of just letting them hang out.

 

[She's a witch]

Perhaps you kind souls can watch and translate one more brief video for me. Black cat had been playing on the bed with a wand toy. Grey kitty jumped up to investigate and join the play. This was the resulting confrontation. Should I interpret this as black cat just jumping on her to play, and grey kitty overreacting?


After this encounter, I realized that black cat was licking a spot on his stomach that on further investigation looks like a bite puncture mark, I'm assuming from one of yesterday's encounters with grey kitty. I'm going to take him into the vet today to get looked at because he's licked all the fur around it off. I'm guessing this is going to set back my plans of just letting them hang out.

Yes, the black one jumped on her to play, but I wouldn't say she overreacted - hers was a very proper reaction in my opinion, she was surprised, she was focused on the toy, so she hissed as to say to him: you scared me, go away you stupid cat! Hissing, as aggressive as it can sound for us humans, is really rather mild way of saying: "I don't want you to do whatever you're doing to me". Female cats tend to hiss more than males in my experience so get used to this sound.
By all means check the wound that he has, hopefully it's nothing but a scratch! If that's the case, I wouldn't delay the end of separation. If it were me, and if vet would confirm there's no medical reason to keep him separated, I would let them be together even today, from your videos it seems they're more than ready. Personally, although some people would find it controversial, I would even let them be alone in the house, or at least in the room. I would just get a coffee in the kitchen and let them do whatever they do, I certainly wouldn't follow them around. If she hisses and growls, that's ok. Only if she screams louder, I would check on them, and then I'd react by redirecting his attention or I'd simply clap loudly. I guarantee he will not eat her :-) Watching their dynamics, it's highly unlikely that he could hurt her, I wouldn't worry about that. Just make sure she has lots of places to hide from him and they'll be good.

 

[ArtNJ]

Hair licked off is a definite warning sign, but it could still be a stray nail, especially if there is only one wound. However, if you can feel a hard area around the puncture, it is definitely an infected bite wound.

Black cat really does seem to be playing, I'd be surprised if its a bite wound. Fingers crossed.

 

[cheeseburger]

Thanks everybody! It's comforting to know that this is nothing alarming and that in the absence of any medical problems that we should just continue to let it run its course. I'm feeling much more optimistic than I was 24 hours ago.

It's hard to tell with the wound right now. Black cat is very protective of his stomach area, so there's no chance of me inspecting it closely without help. Luckily he is sufficiently scared at the vet that he's really compliant and will let us take a look when we're there. We will hope it's a scratch and not a bite.

 

[ArtNJ]

Well, don't want to be too reassuring unfortunately! Not going to lie, assuming you can see a wound and its not stress hair loss, then even if its a scratch, with the hair loss it is probably infected and likely to cost you more than you expect

Check the bigger cat's nails if you don't do so regularly. If they are long, you'll need to start cutting them or get nail caps.

 

[SDerailed]

I am going to disagree with the others. When cats play it's usually a back and forth, not a stalking like the black one is doing. The tabby keeps hiding under something so that the black one can't get on top of her.
Usually when cats play there is a back and forth, not one that is always initiating it. These are my two. Very soft bites, no claws. Back and forth

 

[pearl99]

My kitties will play like Kieka's videos minus the noise, it wasn't till Mooshoo grew up some that their play got more reciprocal with Moo "play aggressing" back more. She had gotten bigger and stronger and "punched" back at Waffles. That was at about 8 months old. So I also think grey kitty getting bigger will change the dynamic.
In the wand on the bed video I see grey kitty comfortable to come up and want to play right next to black kitty and black kitty trying to play Totally and Completely surprising grey kitty, hence the hiss and squeal, not expecting a pounce. Which scared black kitty which is good.