Impossible Cat

[orange&white]

I wasn't thinking about it yesterday, but Farrell also does the "kneading bread" with her paws/claws when I cuddle her in bed. The difference between her doing it and Misfit doing it is that I keep the very tips of Farrell's claws trimmed blunt so she can't puncture my skin. That's an instinctual response of contentment and satisfaction, similar to how kittens kneaded their momma's belly when they were nursing babies.

Susie, I don't know if Drifter would let you trim her claws, just the very sharp tips off the ends. I know Misfit would not let me go tinkering with her paws and a clipper, but Drifter seems more tame. Even with Farrell, sometimes I have to do one or two claws then stop because she gets fussy, and go back a little later and do a few more. I usually trim when she's napping and relaxed.

I also hope you two have made up and are friends again.

 

[foxxycat]

I have to put Honeybee on a blanket otherwise she claws me in contentment. She kneads the blanket. Mashes her face down into it-drewls on the blanket and purrs really really loud..She will do this anywhere from 5 minutes to 30 minutes. I never stop her- it seems to calm her down when she's got the zoomies.


She's laying across my legs. I can't clip her claws without her biting me-although I should try when she's fast asleep..

 

[susieqz]

this was not the kneeding bread thing. this was digging her claws inn scratching deep enow to draw blood.
some of you experts are living in a dream world. what did you do in school?
remember bio 101?
did you sleep through that?
ANY MAMMAL CAN BE TRAINED USING NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT, POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT OR A COMBINATION OF BOTH.!!
i have science backing my training. show me a study that shows cats don't respond to negative reinforcement or shut up.
the proper response to any attack by any cat is to attack back. this is what i do.
retreating in the face of cat aggression is not only wimpy, it is counter productive.
cat can learn that hurting me hurts back.
i will stop this behavior.
this cat can not be rehomed. she is a wild animal.
more difficult than a barn cat.
for the record, if she is so abused, why does she stay?
she can leave any time she wants.
why does she spend 16 hours/day indoors with me?
i am feeding big cat. there is the same kibble n water outside that is inside.
she can eat outside.
but, she stays with me anyway.
she thinks she is being treated fine.

 

[maggiedemi]

Have you seen the big boy cat again? I agree that cats can learn and be trained. But I grew up in a house with lots of yelling and hitting, and it never solved anything. It didn't make me want to behave, it made me hate my life. That's why I will never hit my cats, but use the horn. I also bought a whistle, since I can make it quieter than the horn. I want to see if it helps Maggie, kind of like clicker training. Anyway, please don't be offended if we offer advice, it's only to help you & Drifter, as you help us sometimes, we are all friends here.

 

[susieqz]

sorry, mag. i'm unable to edit my post as you asked.
there is no edit button,
so i hereby retract the words '' or shut up''.

i haven't seen big cat again, but remember, he was here at least a month before drifter went into heat.
he is invisible.
i now wonder if there aren't many cats out here that are never seen.
drifter was here at least since feburary, but i never saw her til 10 weeks ago.
high plains wild cats do not wish to be seen.

 

[maggiedemi]

Feral cats are like that, invisible. We had them living in the woods when I was a kid, but we hardly ever saw them. My dad wouldn't let me feed them. I tried, but he yelled at me and took the food away from it. It broke my heart to see it hungry. It looked a lot like Maggie, probably her great-grandmother.

 

[susieqz]

sorry you couldn't feed them.
i'll feed any animal that comes around.
by the way. when i said i could replace drifter, i meant with one of her kittens that i could handle from birth.
too late to stop her from coming in tho.
i do call her in at bed time, but mostly, she just gallops in if i open the door.
it would be cruel to bar her from the house now.
she is an indoor/outdoor cat.

 

[maggiedemi]

Maybe it all worked out for the best. If my dad had let me adopt her, we would have gotten her fixed. If she was Maggie's great-grandmother, then Maggie would have never been born... If Drifter has kittens and they are tame, maybe they can teach her how to be more tame. What do you think?

 

[susieqz]

can kittens teach moms?
that would be nice.
drifter lives here n we love each other, but she's not a pet.
the good news is my scratches haven't infected.
note that drifter is never offered violence unless she offers it.
i do not react out of anger or hate.
i react as a trainer.
if a normal cat knocked her up, i might be happy about it.
i would like to train from birth.
i only worry because of big cat's size.
the kittens might be too big.
i'm consulting with an old rancher. he has assisted hundreds of births in horses, cattle n sheep his whole life.
i'll help her as best i can.

 

[maggiedemi]

Well Mally was big at least 15 pounds, and his kittens were normal size. His two kittens were inbred though and one acted a little crazy. He wasn't mean, but he was afraid of us his entire life and only wanted to be alone. That's another thing to watch out for, inbreeding. I think kittens could probably teach their mom stuff, since think about it, they would be only like a year apart in age. Maybe you could try a horn or whistle sometime. I like non-violent methods better because of the way I grew up.

 

[rubysmama]

I came across Drifter's story after you'd been taking care of her for a while, and have been reading with interest the past week or so. But I think I'm going to have to un-follow this thread now, as I do not believe in violence of any kind, especially to an animal, and I'm finding some of your comments such as "note that drifter is never offered violence unless she offers it" very disturbing. Maybe, hopefully, I'm taking your words literally when you mean them figuratively, but I still don't want to read them any longer.

I know you're new to domestic cats, and learning as you go, so in leaving I'm going to add a few links to articles from this site about training cats and cat behaviour. I wish you and Drifter all the best. Maybe I'll pop in to this thread in late December to see if/how Drifter is doing with her possible pregnancy.

The Dos And Don'ts Of Cat Behavior Modification
Cats And Discipline Don't Mix
Cat Aggression Toward People
Cat Behavior For Beginners

 

[orange&white]

I don't agree with negative reinforcement at all, but that's just me, too. I will put my 53 years living with cats up against any animal behavior science.

Suze, I really appreciate that you are so not politically correct. You say what you think and speak what's on your mind. You are like most of my High Plains relatives. I'm glad you're here sharing your adventures with Drifter while you learn about cats.

 

[maggiedemi]

I think it's okay to disagree and learn from each other. I know I'm not perfect and make tons of mistakes. I just feel like we can do better than our parents' generation. They were so angry all the time. I do agree with training though, since the mother cat does train her kittens. I enjoy discussing training with you guys and hope you will all stick around.

 

[susieqz]

drifter is responding well to my training. i was outside, just coming in. i looked at her n said ''well?''
she came right in. i didn't order her in, i just offered.
she galloped right in.
she wasn't hungry or thirsty. she doesn't want cuddling.
she just wants to relax on the carpet near me.

later, she will be on her end of the couch for the evening.
these actions are all the proof i need to know her well being.
it is very hard to tell if big cat is eating.
i can't stop drifter from using his bowl as her all day buffet.
i put 2 full cups out there n it's mostly gone.
drifter usually eats 1/2cup/day.
he might rape drifter, but i want him around.
he can protect her from coyotes.
i don't even hear them howl anymore.
he may be eating them.
i did not exagerate his size

 

[maggiedemi]

Are you going to get Drifter spayed after the first litter? Just watch out for inbreeding between the siblings if she has kittens. Mally's one inbred kitten that I told you about Oreo, he was so strange. Oreo always had this constant bug-eyed fearful look on his face, he never settled down. He was worse than a feral cat, afraid all day long every day for 10 plus years. He must have had some nervous system disorder.

 

[susieqz]

is inbreeding real bad for cats?. there is always some inbreeding in show horses n dogs by breeders, to strengthen desirable traits.

 

[maggiedemi]

Yes, inbreeding seems to be bad in cats. It seems to cause birth defects. We loved Oreo so much, but he was obviously ill in the head.

 

[mani]

this was not the kneeding bread thing. this was digging her claws inn scratching deep enow to draw blood.
some of you experts are living in a dream world. what did you do in school?
remember bio 101?
did you sleep through that?
ANY MAMMAL CAN BE TRAINED USING NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT, POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT OR A COMBINATION OF BOTH.!!
i have science backing my training. show me a study that shows cats don't respond to negative reinforcement or shut up.

Can you show us a scientific study that shows that cats do respond to negative reinforcement? (I'm presuming you are using that term to mean a form of punishment or negative response to the cat's behaviour)
I'm not sure that any 'pure' studies have been done, but it is pretty universally accepted that negative training simply does not work with cats.
Below are a very few of the many credible links on the subject. I could find none that promoted negative training in cats.

RSPCA : Punishment does not work

North Randwick Veterinary Hospital
You cannot discipline cats as you would dogs. Cats form social groups by necessity and based on respecting territory, rather than respecting “top dog”. Use of punishment will only teach your cat to fear you.

San Francisco SPCA (PDF.. google for the full paper)
Unfortunately, there is a lot of outdated or just plain inaccurate information about punishing cats available. Whether you heard it from your veterinarian, your friend or the internet, we’re here to tell you that all types of physical punishment are not only detrimental to your relationship with your cat, but they JUST DON’T WORK.

Banfield Pet Hospital: Can my cat be trained?
Never physically punish or yell at your cat. Negative reinforcement does not work when training.

MSD Veterinary Manual: Behavior Modification in Cats
Owners often resort to physical punishment as the first choice, but punishment does not need to be physical. Furthermore, punishment is just as hard to use correctly as counterconditioning and desensitization. Punishment is never an “easy out” and has a high chance of failure. It can also lead to other negative consequences, such as increasing the chance of fear or aggression.

American Association of Feline Practitioners: Positive Reinforcement of Cats
Punishment can be deleterious, leading to fear and possible fear aggression, stress and stress-associated health and behavior problems, inhibition of learning the desired new behavior, and breakdown of the human-animal bond. Physical punishment should never be used with cats or other animals Verbal punishment can also increase fear and possibly fear aggression. Verbal punishment also focuses attention on the undesired behavior of the cat and may inadvertently reward it.

 

[jcat]

some of you experts are living in a dream world. what did you do in school?
remember bio 101?
did you sleep through that?
ANY MAMMAL CAN BE TRAINED USING NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT, POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT OR A COMBINATION OF BOTH.!!

I certainly remember enough of Psychology 101 and operant conditioning to know that "negative reinforcement" means permitting escape or avoidance of negative stimuli, not punishment.

To give a concrete example:

The bunnies at our shelter are housed in large raised cages surrounded by a fenced enclosure. The fence separates them from a dog exercise yard. They naturally prefer being in the enclosure to being caged, but they can't be left in it 24/7 due to the presence of predators that can climb, like raccoons, martens, foxes, and cats. To prevent them from fighting tooth and nail when being put back in their cages and injuring staff, they need to view those cages as pleasant safe havens.

They're fed fresh vegetables in their cages rather than in the enclosure, so are getting positive reinforcement (reward). The bunnies are put back in their cages before the dogs are allowed to run around, thus raising them above eye level with the dogs and putting two barriers between them; caging offers them an opportunity to avoid being too frightened by the dogs (negative reinforcement/escape). If we were to allow the dogs to lunge at the fence while the bunnies were in the enclosure and drive them back into their cages, that would be punishment (adding a detrimental element).

Another illustration:

When our last cat was a kitten, he jumped up on the drainboard while I was cooking. Splashing him with water or squirting him with a water pistol would have punished him for that behavior and most likely would have caused him to mistrust or fear me.

He learned not to do it through a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. I put him on the nearby window sill where he could see what I was doing from a safe distance and gave him a little treat when he stayed there.

I also discreetly wet down the drainboard, so if he jumped up there he got wet feet. That way he learned that he could avoid getting his feet wet by not jumping up, but by watching from the window sill. There was no need to actively punish him and cause him to associate my own behavior with negative consequences for him.

 

[LeiLana80]

You had originally joined this forum and started this post to ask for help, as you didn't have much- if any?- experience with cats.
So now you have lots of very very experienced cat people giving you great advice and suggestions.
But you are choosing to do what you think is best?
You may know about LOTS of other things- I don't doubt that.
But as far as cats go, please take the advice of everyone here.

None of us are saying anything out of spite or meanness; we literally just want what is best for the cat. All cats.