I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

[Jcatbird]

They looked so fantastic! I laughed at them playing and butt sniffing. I think you can start letting them out more. Ending it today on a good note was super but you can always have a second daily visit or just extend things. The only thing I would not yet do is leave them out together while I was gone all day. That will come after you have total confidence in their behavior. Bravo to them but even more applause to you..Job well done!

 

[Buffster7]

The only thing I would not yet do is leave them out together while I was gone all day.

Oh gosh, that thought gives me a heart attack!
It's been a stressful week overall for me apart from this; I did not think I would have the time/energy/nerve to let them out together today. But Charlie sat crying outside Finn's door, so I thought well here we go... No sooner did I let Finn out than Charlie got mean-eye and started going for him. Ha! Regretted that decision didn't ya, Big Guy? I would't trust them alone together for quite some time.

There was one moment that gave me great hope that they might get along! It was another butt-sniffing incident, and Finn turned around and faced Charlie, and they sniffed each other's faces for several seconds, and I wondered if I saw Finn's tongue dart out for a minute?? Regardless, it was a tentative friendly moment.

 

[Jcatbird]

That is a good moment. Face sniffing is another scent investigation. If face washing does occur,
I guess you saw my pictures of Banjo licking Precious in the face. Precious being my wild card. Lol It was great and Precious actually loved it and no one got nervous. Not even me. Kitty kisses!
Do you like hot tea? I have been told that Chammomile year is very calming. Maybe a cup before kitties? I want to remind you that you already passed the most difficult stages and did that with far less fuss and muss than you anticipated or than many others have experienced. You have the kitty touch.

 

[Buffster7]

That is a good moment. Face sniffing is another scent investigation. If face washing does occur,
I guess you saw my pictures of Banjo licking Precious in the face. Precious being my wild card. Lol It was great and Precious actually loved it and no one got nervous. Not even me. Kitty kisses!
Do you like hot tea? I have been told that Chammomile year is very calming. Maybe a cup before kitties? I want to remind you that you already passed the most difficult stages and did that with far less fuss and muss than you anticipated or than many others have experienced. You have the kitty touch.

Ahhh, thanks to you guys!! I will admit I downed a Kava Kava and called my dad and said, "Dad, I need you to talk me through this. The boys are out together and it terrifies me." He laughed and assured me that if there was a cat fight, it would be loud and there would be no mistaking it - and unless I heard that, to just let them do their due process and keep my nose out of it. Next time I will try the chamomile tea - I have a cupboard full of it!! I cannot thank you enough for all the coaching!

 

[Jcatbird]

Calling Dad was an a excellent idea and he gave perfect Dad advice. Go Dad!
Always glad if any of us here can give a helping hand. TCS is a great place for that. Now maybe some R+R for you?
Got a reply coming for Charlie later too.

 

[rubysmama]

So now the cats aren't the problem, *I* am the problem.

LOL. Well you did say you had "more trust isses than this feral" in your thread title.

He laid on my chair (Charlie and I each have a chair in the hearth room...I dread the day Finn tries to sit in Charlie's chair)

Is there room for a 3rd chair? Or will "Mom's" chair soon by Finn's?

Bravo to them but even more applause to you..Job well done!

Yes, well done !!!

 

[Buffster7]

Is there room for a 3rd chair? Or will "Mom's" chair soon by Finn's?

Ha! It looks like Mom is soon going to be sitting on the floor! Wait. That will never happen. Hopefully one of them will be okay with sharing a chair with me.

Well, I just had Finn out for another 45 minutes. As usual, they were taking turns being the A-hole and today was Finn's turn.

They both were really crying through the door at each other this morning, so it always seems like they want to be together. Even now, I'm back in Finn's room with him and he's crying through the door. So it SOUNDS like they want to be together. But then they tussle.

As I observe, I think I sense fear in Charlie. When they come face to face and sniff, sometimes it goes without issue and other times Charlie raises his paw in warning. If Finn doesn't step back he gets whacked. Then Finn jumps Charlie and the smackdown and hissy fit happens.

Today I was playing with Finn, and Charlie wanted to play with us (!!!). He waited til Finn was done and laying down, then he went after the toy. Finn didn't allow it, he chased Charlie. Another time when I picked Charlie up and loved on him, Finn went after him the minute I put Charlie down. So...possessiveness of me? How do I handle this?

It seems as though Charlie might have to give up his alpha position. I see fear in him and none in Finn. Is that what this means? How can I assist in this transfer of power if that is what is necessary to establish peace? And what can I do to ensure Finn doesn't abuse this power? Thanks, guys.

 

[Talien]

Today I was playing with Finn, and Charlie wanted to play with us (!!!). He waited til Finn was done and laying down, then he went after the toy. Finn didn't allow it, he chased Charlie. Another time when I picked Charlie up and loved on him, Finn went after him the minute I put Charlie down. So...possessiveness of me? How do I handle this?

I had an issue like this with Cats I was fostering, they got along until I gave one of them some attention and not the other, then the one not getting attention would smack the one that was. What worked for me was to give attention to both of them at the same time, I would pet one with each hand and after that they got along great.

I can't say for sure it will work for you because like people, different Cats have different personalities, but it can't hurt to try it.

 

[Buffster7]

I think I'm calling it a day. 3 attempts to have them out and every one of them was full of Finn thugging on Charlie. I'm tense and I have work to get done. The last straw was when I turned just in time to see Finn arch up like the Halloween cat while he stalked Charlie, and then take off down the hallway after him. I rounded the corner just in time to see Charlie all puffed up with a puffed up tail trying to get away. Is this behavior Finn trying to establish himself, or is it him being a bully? Do I allow it to continue or do I nip in the bud?
I'm over it today, all of it.

 

[rubysmama]

I can't answer any of your questions, so ...

I'm over it today, all of it.

 

[Jcatbird]

No screaming or growling? It still sounds like learning to me. I do agree that when you feel that you have dealt with a boot load, put Finn up. If they cry to be together then, I take that to mean they do wasn’t that regardless of the back and forth. Kittens do the same thing with litter mates as they grow older and learn. Halloween cat, fluff tail, swatting, chasing, cornering etc.. Since this is your first exposure to this kind of event, I know it must be nerve wracking trying to decipher it all. A true cat fight is very clear. You would recognize it without a doubt. When you need to work or just feel that the stress is building for you or the cats, put Finn in his room and go do something else. If you can walk away for a bit, it does help. I still have my moments too. I go outside and walk the yard a minute. Deep breath! It will all be okay.
Buffster7
If you are still up, try adding extra water to the food you give Finn and if Charlie has a problem, since he is drinking a lot, could be a UTI. A problem of not urinating should be a vet check, whichever cat it is. Call the vet and update in the morning.

 

[Buffster7]

Just home from emergency vet where they gave Finn a steriod and an antibiotic shot along with fluids under his skin. They say he has FLUTD - I need to read up on this. He never drinks water - I pour bone broth in his food and that is all he drinks. I need to research the best quality of food that is good for urinary symptoms. Tomorrow. It's way past my bedtime, now. Thanks for checking on us, Jcatbird. Poor Finn, he probably wasn't feeling well all day.

 

[Jcatbird]

You may not see a repeat of this. The stress of being fixed and all else could have contributed greatly. Things are much easier for Finn now. The fluids he got should make him feel better before the other things kick in. Don’t get too concerned as long as he shows that he is recovering well. Just watch for the straining to pee and scratching in the litter box with no production. Dark urine can be indicative too. A water fountain is something a lot of cats like. If Finn has not seen running water, that could be a great attraction for him. Play and snuggles will help too. Adding water to the food you give him now should help. I probably wouldn’t make a lot of changes to diet right away. Research and work on that and do changes when he feels a little better. Special foods are something to ask the vet about. FLUTD is urinary tract issues but not necessarily something that will be a constant.
Excellent observation on your part. You caught this very early. Go rest and to Finn, get better quick little buddy!

 

[Talien]

Just home from emergency vet where they gave Finn a steriod and an antibiotic shot along with fluids under his skin. They say he has FLUTD - I need to read up on this. He never drinks water - I pour bone broth in his food and that is all he drinks. I need to research the best quality of food that is good for urinary symptoms. Tomorrow. It's way past my bedtime, now. Thanks for checking on us, Jcatbird. Poor Finn, he probably wasn't feeling well all day.

If he eats mostly dry food then that's a problem if he's not drinking, but if you're feeding him canned or raw then it's not a big deal (I know you've mentioned it before but I can't remember, and I'm in a bit of a hurry so I don't have time to search). I feed my Cats wet food and they barely drink anything even though I have several water dishes sitting out, and they are never dehydrated.

The bone broth is definitely a good thing though.

 

[Buffster7]

The stress of being fixed and all else could have contributed greatly. Things are much easier for Finn now.

Yes, his life has had great upheaval in the last 2 months, poor guy! I remember seeing him straining to pee the first day I brought him home from vet, so I got that 10-day round of antibiotics from the vet to address UTI + URI. A little concerning that this has reappeared so quickly? But the stress of being cooped up and then integration attempts with a stressed out human probably don't help things.

A water fountain is something a lot of cats like. If Finn has not seen running water, that could be a great attraction for him.

I bought a water fountain for them a month ago but didn't want to set it up til they were integrated so one of them wouldn't be possessive of this "toy". I have been moving Charlie's feeding stations around so he doesn't become territorial of just one spot, because I know the fountain must go where I normally feed him due to electrical outlet. I may need to go ahead and set this fountain up in Finn's room for now.

If he eats mostly dry food then that's a problem if he's not drinking, but if you're feeding him canned or raw then it's not a big deal

Yes, he eats wet food only with kibble as a treat now and then when I can't get him away from the door so I can exit - putting a little kibble down gets his attention every time and allows me time to slip out. I will need to find a different treat.

He really wants out of his room this morning, but I'm giving it a bit more time. I don't like the thought of him being stressed so soon after his vet appointment, and it is stressful when he's out - he's jumpy because he and Charlie aren't comfortable with each other yet. Also, he weighed 10lbs at the vet last night! I couldn't believe it! He feels SO light compared to Charlie, and there's only a 7lb difference! I honestly thought he might weight 7lbs. Surprise! He's not as tiny as he once was, but he's still very skinny. Here's a pic I took out the window when I first started seeing him hanging around. He looked so tiny! He doesn't look that tiny anymore. Can he have grown? Surely not, vet thinks he's between 1-2 yrs?

 

[Talien]

It's normal for him not to drink much then. Cats have a naturally low instinct to drink water because they get most of it from their prey, so feeding him canned food is providing his moisture needs too. He doesn't need to see a vet just because he's not drinking much water, but like jcatbird mentioned, keep an eye on his litterbox habits because that's where you'll notice urinary issues first.

 

[Buffster7]

Just let Finn out for an hour and it went so much better than yesterday.
I'm trying to figure out the dynamic here. I really think Charlie wants to play. I didn't see any mean-eye from him today, but only curiosity and interest. They tolerated each other really well for the first 30 minutes! Toward the end Finn started being mean and trying to corner him, and Charlie fell trying to get away and hit his head pretty hard (he is okay).

Charlie would like to participate in Finn and my interactions, but Finn chases him away; that is what started to downhill slide. Finn actually had mean-eye for the first time that I've seen. He really looked like he might want to fight. I picked him up and started to take him back to his room but I sensed him getting mad at the same time I remembered what Jcatbird and Talien said about giving them both love and diffusing the situation. So I carried Finn back out and sat down and stroked them both at the same time, and I think that was much better.

If Finn is consistently chasing or cornering Charlie, does this mean he is establishing dominance?

 

[Talien]

If Finn is consistently chasing or cornering Charlie, does this mean he is establishing dominance?

It's possible. From what you mentioned your neighbor telling you it sounds like he had bad experiences with other Cats when outside, so he may be wanting to establish himself at the head of the pecking order just to be sure it doesn't happen later on in his new home. Giving them both attention at the same time should hopefully head that off.

 

[Buffster7]

Giving them both attention at the same time should hopefully head that off.

I'm not quite sure how to do that. They don't tend to stay in the same room and when Charlie does try to enter, Finn chases him if he gets close.

Also, in case anyone has any idea on this: today when Finn was trying to get to Charlie at the end when I intervened? I hissed at him when he lunged at Charlie and he did NOT like that, and it made him go for Charlie even harder. Not sure how he interpreted it, but it did not go over well.

 

[Buffster7]

Ah, I just read this in an article:
"When a cat is attempting to assert his dominance, he will frequently rub his cheeks against objects, people and animals to create scent markings."

When I go into Finn's room, he aggressively marks me. I mean he will lunge, rub his face ALL over my face and body. I've thought of it as his being affectionate, but now I'm thinking it's dominance.

Also, when I sit in there with him, if I'm reclining he will sometimes make a point to climb on my chest and sit tall on it with all his weight. Hard to describe, but it feels different than his just sitting with me; it's a deliberate sit ON me. Now I'm wondering if that's another way a cat marks territory.

If Finn is making me "his" territory, no wonder he is being aggressive to Charlie. How do I correct this? Thank you guys for input.