Help/ Female Adoptees Spraying

[MichMare]

Just wanted to wish you safe travels, Calicosrspecial, and post a quick update.
The girls are still visiting via the slightly open door. Poppy still wants to roam in the worst way. She seems far less threatened by either of the other girls. Last night, she and Rudy did their usual nose-to-nose quick hiss and batting of paws; in fact, Poppy rolled on her back behind the door still pawing- definitely a play rather than aggressive move. Rudy just turned and walked away- seemed like a “just wanted to let you know I’m here, wanted to see if you’re still here, that’s all for now” move on her part. This morning Frankie came looking around; she tends to stay a little further back than Rudy, so Poppy saw her, no reaction at first, then just a brief hiss from Poppy. Frankie turned and just walked away, and I had to hold Poppy back because she wanted to follow her. Pops went back in her room, as I was going to work, but Frankie came back again. They continue to not be bothered much by each other.
The brief hissing and batting seem more like a brief greeting now. I will try to do some sort of food /treat the next few days and may try to rig up a stacked baby gate so they get a little more visual interaction. It is hard to keep the door open enough so they can see each other but closed enough that Poppy stays inside. Fingers crossed... I think all this has definitely been harder on me than them, but they are all good girls.
Again, safe travels to you, and thanks for your time and help.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thank you very much.

I can understand Poppy's desire to roam and explore new territory. It seems like her confidence is better which is great. But for the newest cat this typically happens as their territory is safe so they want to expand it. BUT it can cause problems for the resident/existing cats as it is "their" territory being "invaded". So that is why scent swapping, site swapping, positive associations, positive encounters and confidence building (play, food, height and love) are really important. So the resident cat is so confident and secure and they know the new cat is not a threat (physical, access to food etc) that they accept the, in "their" territory.

I don't like the hissing (hissing is like a "hey, watch it" not real friendly. We would like them to end that hissing to get more comfortable. BUT nothing negative happened after the hiss so that is a positive.

And the fact that Poppy allowed herself to be that vulnerable is a sign that she is trusting Poppy (at least in her territory) which is great.

AND Rudy walked away which is great. With the minor caveat that it was in their respective territories.

On Frankie - How was the body language? The fact that she stays a little further away tells me their is still some apprehension. The hiss does tell me they need to get to know each other and trust each other better. How did Poppy exactly follow her? Watch their body language as that tells us a lot.

Well, the hissing and batting is just a way to tell the other cat not to try anything. They are laying the ground rules and just letting the other know not to try anything. But we would like them to get to where they don;t feel the need to do that. Which we will get there. We just need to build more trust and confidence.

I would do the food treat thing for at least a week. Watch the body language, see if the hissing reduces or ends. If they look away from each other (not staring at each other as much). Things like that. Then when you think they would go to the gate and not have a stare down or any swatting etc then you can do the gate with supervision (and distract as needed to avoid any negativity). If it seems like it gets too tense then take a step back and build that positivity back. And then we would go to visual without supervision but I expect that would be after I am back.

They will be fine. I know, it is hard on us. What you are experiencing is very normal. They actually are really good cats. It just takes that time to build that territorial security, confidence and trust. But it does happen. The key really is not to rush things and keep letting them know that all is well (which it really is). I have no doubt you will get there. Sure, we'll have ups and downs (we always do) but we can handle that. No cat really wants to hurt the other they are more defending (mildly) and that is normal.

Just keep up the great work and trust your instincts. Keep building confidence and positive associations and encounters. And watch their body language. Distract in a positive way as needed. You are well on your way to success.

You are very welcome, happy to help. Just post anything so I can catch up when I am back. Thank you for the kind words. Talk in about 3 weeks.

 

[rubysmama]

and post a quick update.

Another positive sounding update.

Talk in about 3 weeks.

Have a good trip!

 

[calicosrspecial]

I am back now so if there is anything you need I am able to respond.

Hope all is going well.

 

[MichMare]

Glad you’re back.
I didn’t post any updates while you were gone as it would have been very repetitive.
I think things are going ok, albeit still very slowly. Poppy is still in her room 95% of the day. She seems content in there but still wants to get out into the house. We have been doing the daily “visits “ by the door, which is 6-8 inches open now (I sit inside kind of blocking full access). We’ve done the treats, etc. and still usually have an hiss or mild growl on eye contact until someone turns and walks away.
We’ve had a couple of times when both Rudy and Frankie have rushed into Poppy’s room. Both stayed for 10-15 minutes, with growling and hissing but not much else. No ill effects after - all are happy and unperturbed once they are not directly next to one another.
I’ve also been letting Poppy out in the evening; there is a closet with no doors and open shelves, and she likes to sit on one of the lower shelves and watch . I wouldn’t say she hides, because she appears to be completely relaxed- she grooms herself, stretches out- only growls a little if one of the others walks by. I sit by the closet to referee if Rudy decides to investigate. She still likes to pounce , and that is her play. Poppy is getting better at not freaking out at it, but she generally sees Rudy and hops down and heads to her own room.
She will sit on her perch for 15-60 minutes- just depends if Rudy is feeling ornery, or sometimes she just gets bored. I think this allows them more visual contact that I can control, and everyone sees that everyone else is not always riled up or afraid. Yesterday I sat petting Rudy for 30 minutes while Pops relaxed on her shelf and watched .
So, advice for the next step is welcome. I am not comfortable leaving them unattended yet, but I think we’re making progress.
Thanks for your help and input!

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are very welcome.

Yes, slowly is very normal and common. But rushing really causes bigger issues. It is really about de-sensitizing them to each other in a way by building that trust and confidence and making sure the encounters are as positive as possible and limiting or eliminating negative encounters.

For now, we have to have Poppy in her room, that is fine. And the fact she is happy is great. The treat visits are great but I would like to get the hissing to stop. So try to distract them to reduce and then eliminate the hissing. hissing is communication (a "hey, don't try anything") so it isn't totally bad but it does tell us that we still have a trust deficit that we need to work on. But the fact they respect the hissing is a positive as the communication is effective (no fights, etc). The fact they turn away and walk away is positive. How do they walk away? Normal or slowly?

How did Poppy react when Rudy and Frankie rushed into Poppy's room? Who started the hissing? How was the body language? In these instances I like to distract them in any way to ease the tension and get the hissing to stop, the focus on each other to end, and to have an encounter that is really a non-event. As non-events tend to help build trust.

That is good Poppy is getting out. That sounds positive. I would like to see her more in the open then in the closet but it takes time and any positive steps are good. Good job to sit an referee. That helps make it more positive. I would like to get Rudy to just walk by or come over for love and ignore Poppy (maybe a look but focus on you or something else). So try to distract to get the focus on you or something else rather than the other cat. I too have a "pouncer" which created a lot of issues and distrust. But some cats just do that. The fact Poppy is understanding it is not really negative is a big positive. Another sign of trust being built.

15-60 minutes is really good. It sounds like progress is being made. And trust being built. As long as whatever amount of time it is is positive and they seem relaxed, confident, trusting it is very positive. Petting Rudy with Poppy watching is great. That again gets a positive association going. And it is really about positive associations and building that trust. A great step.

Yes, we are not ready to have them together unattended. We have to get less hissing and less focus on the other cats before that. You are getting closer but we would like to see more progress on those fronts.

So I would keep doing what you are doing but with a focus on distracting them (in a positive way) if you sense tension or are getting some hissing. Reassuring "It's ok" and other calm, confident and loving talk. If you can safely without being at risk of being hurt give a little love, get them to relax a bit. Then when we reduce that we'll want them to do more site swapping. And keep playing with them especially in areas where they might feel less secure. But play separately. Feed after (either treats or a meal).

I would like to see Rudy be more accepting. More cool. I am not too worried about Frankie and Poppy should be fine.

I would like to understand their body language more as well. Especially how they are carrying themselves both in alone times and when tensions seem a bit higher (tail position, movement, distance to ground, ear positions, eyes, focus on the other cat, looking away/turning away, speed at which they move away, etc).

Keep up the great work. A lot of positive in here. We have to reduce/end the hissing and focus but I think we can. Keep using food and if possible (safely) love. Keep trying to distract in a positive way, try to get them to relax in the others presence. You will sense it.

Let me know. It is a process and it is best to take it slower to increase the odds of success. We really want to try to reduce the risk of any negative encounters. We want to build their confidence (individually) and to build that trust between each other. The more non-events/positive encounters the more those will be built.

 

[MichMare]

I will try to answer your questions first...

Even with distractions, whenever someone gets within inches/ face-to-face, there is usually a quick hiss from Rudy or Poppy or both. Usually they hiss once (if at all), I intervene/keep them separated/tell them to be nice, then they plop down to relax or turn and walk away normally (like, whatever, rather than fearfully).

Not sure who started hissing etc when Pops got her visitors...

I have her room set up basically like a cat haven with towers made of stacked bins, a tunnel of sorts, etc, so sometimes I can’t see them directly. As I remember, both Rudy and Frankie came in and started snooping while Poppy was initially up on either of her towers or on the window shelf. Poppy hopped down to investigate when she realized someone else was in her room. Both visits lasted 10-15 minutes with growling or noises only when they were in each other’s immediate area. Poppy eventually just moved back to her tower, and the other cat decided she’d snooped enough.

The closet I referenced is actually in the hallway that leads to one of the bathrooms where the other cats’ litter boxes are, and it is immediately adjacent to Poppy ‘s room, so it is a high traffic area. She seems to like to sit there, as she can spy on things, and often the other two pay no attention to her. So, Rudy does come over just to sit with me or just walks by with no reaction to Pops 90% of the time. I distract her if she starts a stare-down.

Body language is absolutely normal when they are not right next to another. No stress whatsoever. It’s all good unless one starts the stare-down or pounces. The staring from Rudy is what seems to freak Poppy out- she knows it’s the prelude to a pounce or close encounter. As long as there’s no staring, both seem fine. There are no signs of stress in general; they bounce back immediately even if they’ve had a slightly negative encounter.

And again, even if there’s a slight hiss/growl/pounce, once they aren’t in a direct sight line, both are completely relaxed. It seems like Rudy just gets that urge to play/pounce, and while Frankie tolerates it, Poppy doesn’t yet. 95% of the time, Rudy is pretty chill...but she’s young (18 months?), so all things considered, I see her behavior as pretty normal. As someone else told me, it’s like a human family dynamic where everyone needs to find that happy medium...

Last night, Poppy sat for over an hour on her closet perch. Both Rudy and Frankie came to sit several times. This was the first time there was no hissing, no growling; they saw Poppy but didn’t bother her at all. Success, I think.

I just play it by ear each day and let Poppy decide how much time she wants to spend behind the door, at the door, on her closet perch. I will update, and please let me know what else I might do at this point. They seem ok with proceeding slowly!

 

[calicosrspecial]

Yes, that is typical. Try to anticipate what may happen. So, if you sense they are going to go nose to nose I typically like to try to get them both to look at me. I usually use a "It's ok" using a calm, confident soothing tone.If we get them to avoid that that is a good win.

Ok, try to keep a watch for which on reacts and w their body language is. If you can get video that can be very helpful.

That pretty good actually. Typically we like to do more site swapping where the cats switch territories but don't have access to each other. The situation you describe is a bit further down the road and risky but it sounds like it goes fairly well. But we do have to watch it doesn't create any negativities. How fast they rebound and how their body language tells us a lot. When they do well it is fine to praise or give treats. Give love. Anything positive.

Poppy's room sounds fantastic.

Wow, that is really great. Positive. Keep making it as positive as possible. It is really positive they walk by and don't even bother with Poppy. Every time they do that it builds more trust and confidence.

Great. Another positive. I get nervous when a cat stares at me too!! So it is understandable that Poppy would. A confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked. So keep building their confidence through Play (and feed treats or a meal after) and making positive associations between them and to maximize positive encounters and minimize negative encounters. Distract as needed. As Poppy learns the "pounce" is not a threat her confidence will increase and the pouncing should be reduced. The pouncing is probably a bit of play and a bit of intimidation/power thing.

The fact they bounce back quickly is a VERY good sign on where they are and how serious they take what negative thing happened.

Yep. If you can step up play to try to drain some of Rudy's energy that could be helpful (but it is hard to drain an 18 month old's energy).

YES!!! AWESOME!!! It is not IF we are going to succeed it is really WHEN. We want to reinforce those positive encounters where they get to a point at some point in the future where that is the expected norm. Then we have success. REALLY GREAT news. There are always steps forward and back but forward movement is happening. FANTASTIC!!! GREAT job!!!

Keep doing what you are doing (it is working). Build their confidence, make every encounter as positive as possible, minimize negative encounters, etc.

Please keep me up on how things are going. I think you will continue to see good progress. REALLY GREAT work!!!

 

[MichMare]

Just an update on the past ten days ...
Poppy comes out to explore between 5-60+ minutes a day, depending on her. She still likes to chill on her closet perch but has been exploring the adjacent master bedroom as well. She likes to snoop under the bed, under the dressers, etc. The other girls have come in to investigate, with minor hissing when they are in close proximity. After the brief hiss, nobody escaped immediately; they just stayed put and climbed out on their own accord eventually.
Frankie and Poppy have come nose to nose several times, with mostly just sniffing. Poppy has even tried to chase and pounce on Frankie, to which Frankie just gets away from her (and later comes to Poppy’s door looking for her).
I have been letting Poppy set her own pace with the exploring. Sometimes she gets bored after a few minutes, sometimes she just wants to sit on her closet perch and nap. If Rudy seems like she is going to bug her, I try to distract her so Poppy can either stay putor head back into her room. Sometimes she wants out, but I simply can’t let her (I do have to go to work and get some sleep ), which seems to frustrate her... but I’m doing the best I can.
Poppy and Frankie have been in the master together for over an hour with a very brief hiss when Poppy was about to pounce...Frankie held her ground, Poppy backed off, and they roamed on their own. Overall a pretty normal and positive (I think) encounter for two cats with limited experience with each other.
Progress has been slower with Rudy, as I expected. At least they can be several feet apart, like when Poppy’s on her shelf and Rudy comes by just to sit with me, and have zero interaction other than a brief glance. They still do hiss and bat paws, albeit about a foot apart, if they encounter each other in the hall (I try my best to avoid these encounters, but sometimes they do end up in the same exact area despite my refereeing). I had a small glimmer of hope last night when they were both in the master at the same time. Poppy was exploring, and Rudy hopped on the bed to play with a toy. They saw each other and were about three feet apart but had zero reaction. Poppy watched Rudy play for about 10 minutes, and both were fine until Poppy decided to get down from the chest where she was sitting. Then Rudy wanted to chase and pounce. Luckily, Poppy moved quickly, and I was there to control the situation, so other than hissing, there was no contact. Poppy went back in her room, and all was well. At least there was peace for ten minutes.....
I think we’re still making progress, albeit still slowly. I am not sure how we will address site swapping with the other girls going in Poppy’s room, as she has had that as her territory now for some time. I will just keep trying what we’re doing for now and trying to make all encounters as peaceful as possible.
That said, as before, once not in the immediate vicinity, all parties are immediately happy and fine.
As always, thanks for your input and advice. I just hope we are getting somewhere!

 

[calicosrspecial]

This is AWESOME!! GREAT WORK!!

Hissing is communication. A "hey, don't try anything". And when nothing negative happens it is a positive. A trust building moment.

Poppy is getting more confidence it sounds. And a confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked.

Frankie and Poppy. Nose to nose. Great. They are getting to know each other. We do want to watch the chasing and pouncing. Watch the body language. Make sure it is play, positive. Watch how they react after and how their body language is (especially Frankie's). You may want to see about distracting Poppy. But overall, it doesn't sound worrying.

Great job on distracting Rudy. Perfect. Again avoiding a negative is a positive.

I know it may frustrate Poppy but like you said, you have to sleep and work. Judging by her behavior she is doing great!! Not an issue.

Poppy and Frankie in the master. Really good. I love that Frankie held her ground. AND that Poppy understood and backed off. Exactly what we want. THEY avoided a negative encounter. FANTASTIC!!

Keep playing with them to build confidence (separately) and feed afterwards.

Rudy. Great work. Yes, we have some work but you are doing great. It is just all about letting them know that the other cat isn't a threat or a negative. SO every time they are together without an incident it is a positive and another step on the trust ladder.

If they are hissing and batting paws just give a loving, confident and calm "It's ok" to distract them a bit and to de-escalate the tension. But it sounds more defensive and not offensive. We just need to continue to make those positive encounters and positive associations. Can you use treats to get them focused on the treat rather than each other? Anytime they break the focus on the other cat it is a win because no cat would take their eyes of a predator or threat.

Last night was a BIG step forward. Rudy was confident to jump on the bed and Poppy was like "that is ok". And Poppy watches for 10 minutes while Rudy is playing. And since Rudy was in "play mode" Rudy was a bit amped up and Poppy jumps and kind of acts like prey and of course Rudy is like "oh yeah, more fun". Not surprising at all. We always have to be aware of the energy that is in a cat just after play. Feeding treats or a meal is a good way to get them to calm down a bit. But you did a great job in distracting Rudy and nothing negative happened.

AND the fact Poppy went back in her room and rebounded quickly is a great "tell". That Poppy didn't think it was that much of a threat. GREAT!!

I think you have made some really great progress. This is fantastic. What you are doing is exactly right and the cats are responding.

Just keep what you are doing and making every encounter as positive as possible, trying to avoid negative encounters and trying to make positive associations between them (using food, or just hanging out, etc). If you get the cats to not focus on each other when they are close it is a win. When there is no negativity it is a win. And just stay calm and confident with them and keep playing with them to build their confidence. And feed after play.

I would like to try to get Poppy to play a bit outside of her territory more to help her build confidence in any part so the house she is exploring that maybe she is not as confident in.

Also, if you feel like you can safely play with Rudy in front of Poppy and keeping Rudy focused on the toy that could be really good. This builds confidence, shows Poppy that Rudy is not a threat, and shows Rudy that Poppy can be near and not do anything. After that play feed treats.

Keep up the great work. It is not a question of IF they will get along but WHEN. I think you are making great progress.

 

[MichMare]

A quick update-
Things seem to be settling somewhat. Poppy is definitely much more confident exploring the house and dealing with the other cats. Her record is now 3 continuous hours out and about. How long she roams still depends on how riled up she and the others get / if someone seems a little too aggravated. Poppy still does her growling bit while walking around, but it has gotten much less, and she only hisses if someone else gets right in her face a little too aggressively. She definitely tolerates Frankie much more than Rudy. Frankie just shrugs off any crap from Poppy and either calmly stands her ground or walks away. Poppy actually hopped over her in the hallway to get by instead of growling or hissing to get Frankie to move! They were actually playing last night on the tall carpeted shelf/ hut thing; some batting of paws and growling, but definitely play.
Rudy has started to just ignore Poppy if they aren’t in each other’s immediate space, which is good. If Poppy didn’t growl, it would probably help, but that’s lessening. They were actually together in my bedroom only a couple of feet apart for about 15 peaceful minutes- Rudy was on the bed where I was petting her and Poppy sat on o pillow on a shelf next to the bed/ same level. No growling! Maybe there’s hope . I do still have to watch for the occasional pounce out of nowhere from Rudy, but that may never subside completely- it seems to be her thing. By the way, she is a calico!
Unless you suggest otherwise, I will just keep doing the same thing, letting Poppy out when I’m home (awake) and letting her expand the territory in which she’s comfortable. I guess I will deal with the issue of letting the others explore her bedroom closer to when I think it’s safe for them to be together unattended. I’m hoping for that by the end of the year, but we’ll see. Any advice on that front would be helpful. Frankie has been in Poppy’s room a couple of times for 15-20 minutes, but that’s all. Poppy doesn’t care to share her space but is fine once “the intruder” , no matter how docile, leaves. I’d like to avoid cutting a hole in the door and installing a microchipped door just for Pops if possible (that’s been suggested, but I think we can find a way to make that unnecessary...).
Thanks again for all your advice.

 

[calicosrspecial]

FANTASTIC!!! GREAT work!!!

Ahhhhh, Rudy is a calico............. I have one that sounds EXACTLY like Rudy. LOVES to pounce. Just her way of playing. But it does cause some unease even now. BUT they know that no one wants to hurt anyone. I think Rudy and Poppy are probably in the same understanding. Just need some time to really have that trust.

You are doing the exact right things. Making sure each encounter is as positive as possible. The more they are near each other and there is nothing negative it is positive. Hissing is just communication so as long as it stops at that then they have come to an understanding and they don't feel the need to do more to feel safe etc. Frankie and Poppy sure seem to be fine. If you do sense the play might get out of hand just distract as needed.

Rudy still needs to build a bit more trust. BUT the fact she can ignore Poppy is GREAT. Exactly what we are looking for. The choice to not confront rather then feeling defensive and confronting and escalating. The encounter in the bedroom is FANTASTIC. Rudy getting love and seeing that Poppy is not a threat. Positive association AND positive encounter. Exactly what we are looking for. 15 minutes is a great amount of time. There is much more than hope, you pretty much have success. We have a little more fine tuning but it is a question of WHEN NOT IF they will get along.

You are not going to have to put a door in the door. I am not at all worried about that. We will get them together.

I would like to understand how Poppy responds to the "intruder" into her territory. When someone comes in how does Poppy react? How does the "intruder" react? Distract as needed to make it as positive as possible. Again to show that there is no threat or negativity.

Yes, keep doing the same thing. Watch their body language. Maybe get some things that have the other cat's scent on it and place it in the other's territory. So something of Poppy's near where Rudy hangs out and vice versa. Bedding, scratching post, anything that holds scent.

How does Poppy walk around, hang out in the Rudy territory? Are there any places Poppy is not going? Any going on cat trees or anything? Is Poppy exploring with her tail up? Walking fairly tall? Looking fairly relaxed?

Try to play with them in each other's territory. To help build that confidence. Try to play with them separately just so that they don't get too energetic and turn on each other. Feed either treats or a meal after play.

You are REALLY close. Try the scent things I mention in the other's territory and try the play and let's see how they do as well as continuing what you are doing.

Please watch the body language and let us know how they are doing. You really are doing well, exactly what we look for. GREAT results!! Great job!!

 

[MichMare]

It has been a very long time since I’ve updated this thread, but I’m reaching out for help again, unfortunately.

Sadly, Rudy was diagnosed with dry FIP and passed away 2/2/2020. Things had gotten much better between her and Poppy, perhaps because she was ill, and they sensed it long before she became symptomatic. It was a very hard time.

The remaining four cats got along very well; things were great until July, when I took Poppy to the vet for her annual checkup. This was when owners were not allowed inside with pets, so I handed her off in her carrier to the assistant. I got a call shortly after to “come in and catch your cat”; she was trying to bite them when they attempted a nail trim, and they couldn’t pick her up to put her in the carrier . As I explained to them, Poppy had not seen any other humans since I adopted her, on top of being previously feral, so this wasn’t exactly abnormal (she was fine when I came in- I was able to pick her up and take her home). Later that day, however, she peed in the living room. I attributed it to the stress of the day

Foolishly, still thinking about the loss of Rudy and my other previous polydactyl girls, I adopted two polydactyl kittens in August. They were from the same small town as my first cat, Lena; I thought this was a sign (otherwise, I would not have taken them). I say foolishly, because after they came home, even though I followed all the introduction guidelines very carefully, the marking started again. While I can’t say it is exclusively Poppy, I have caught her multiple multiple times, so I assume she is the main, if not only, culprit.

That said, there are no obvious issues or conflicts between any of the cats. They interact very well. There is no hiding or pouncing like there was with Rudy and Poppy. They share food and water bowls (there are many), litter boxes (7), and hang out in the same areas of the house. There are occasional swats if someone bothers someone else, but that’s just normal cat behavior. Poppy and usually several others sleep on my bed. Poppy always greets me at the door with several of her “sisters”, she grooms several of the other cats when they “ask” her- there are no unusual problems or patterns of behavior that show stress in any of the cats... but the marking continues.

I have been keeping track of day and location, and it occurs almost daily and has occurred since last July. There are occasionally breaks of a week or two, but there are no noticeable differences between the days it occurs and the it does not. There is no pattern in terms of location or substrate, although the chairs and couches in the living room are the recent preferred targets. It usually occurs on a plastic bag, clothes, or papers rather than a hard surface. When I have seen Poppy marking, she both sprays and squats (that is, she marks on both vertical and horizontal surfaces). There has been marking at every time of day, both when I am home and when I am not. It has occurred in every room of the house at one time or another. It does not seem to be attention-related; Poppy has sprayed immediately after a long combing session. It truly seems to have no consistent pattern, except, unfortunately, the frequency.

I have added an extra litter box, tried Feliway, and am trying CBD oil with no results. I clean the soiled areas as soon as I detect them with Nature’s Miracle and then discard or wash whatever’s affected.

I do not believe this is a medical issue, as it started after she got a clean bill of health last year and has continued . I have seen Poppy use each of the litter boxes, and I clean them daily, so I don’t think it is litter box aversion. There are no obvious triggers to the marking. I have observed her eating in the morning, then hopping on a chair, spraying, then calmly hopping down and plopping on the floor to relax. Neither she nor any of the other cats demonstrates any sign of stress or distress; they hang out in all areas of the house, both alone and together in different combinations, with no issues.

Like another poster here on the site, I am to the point that I just deal with this- all the furniture is covered in waterproof covers, I keep lots of paper towels and Nature’s Miracle cleaner around, and do lots of laundry, but I fear for my sanity for the next 15 years of Poppy’s life if this continues.
She is a good cat 99% of the time! I do not want to re-home her or any of the other cats . I have had Poppy over two years now but wonder if this behavior is the reason why she was abandoned and ended up living outside. She lived with other cats in her foster home, and marking was never mentioned, so I have no clue why she continues to do this or if it will eventually cease.

Any suggestions are welcome. Again, I do not think this is a medical issue since it has occurred for such a long period of time. I did mention it when I was at the vet with the other cats, and he agreed that it was very likely a behavioral issue...

 

[rubysmama]

Welcome back, though so sorry it's a post looking for more help, and not one with a positive update.

Condolences on the loss of Rudy. RIP sweet girl.

About the peeing, I only have 2 ideas.

1) possibility of FIC, which is a "type of urinary tract inflammation that can be difficult to detect and even more difficult to treat. It’s sometimes called the Pandora Syndrome, but officially it’s known as Feline Idiopathic Cystitis, or FIC for short. There is no bacterial infection and no crystals are present, yet the inner layer of the cat’s urinary bladder is inflamed. The culprits are stress hormones. Susceptible cats have more receptors for stress hormones within their bladder. If the cat experiences a high amount of stress, the bladder becomes inflamed and urination becomes painful."

There's more info about it in the TCS article: Litterbox Problems? Here’s Why You Should Call Your Vet – TheCatSite Articles

2) maybe consider Cat Stud Pants, though I'm not sure if Poppy would like them.

 

[calicosrspecial]

It has been a very long time since I’ve updated this thread, but I’m reaching out for help again, unfortunately.

Sadly, Rudy was diagnosed with dry FIP and passed away 2/2/2020. Things had gotten much better between her and Poppy, perhaps because she was ill, and they sensed it long before she became symptomatic. It was a very hard time.

The remaining four cats got along very well; things were great until July, when I took Poppy to the vet for her annual checkup. This was when owners were not allowed inside with pets, so I handed her off in her carrier to the assistant. I got a call shortly after to “come in and catch your cat”; she was trying to bite them when they attempted a nail trim, and they couldn’t pick her up to put her in the carrier . As I explained to them, Poppy had not seen any other humans since I adopted her, on top of being previously feral, so this wasn’t exactly abnormal (she was fine when I came in- I was able to pick her up and take her home). Later that day, however, she peed in the living room. I attributed it to the stress of the day

Foolishly, still thinking about the loss of Rudy and my other previous polydactyl girls, I adopted two polydactyl kittens in August. They were from the same small town as my first cat, Lena; I thought this was a sign (otherwise, I would not have taken them). I say foolishly, because after they came home, even though I followed all the introduction guidelines very carefully, the marking started again. While I can’t say it is exclusively Poppy, I have caught her multiple multiple times, so I assume she is the main, if not only, culprit.

That said, there are no obvious issues or conflicts between any of the cats. They interact very well. There is no hiding or pouncing like there was with Rudy and Poppy. They share food and water bowls (there are many), litter boxes (7), and hang out in the same areas of the house. There are occasional swats if someone bothers someone else, but that’s just normal cat behavior. Poppy and usually several others sleep on my bed. Poppy always greets me at the door with several of her “sisters”, she grooms several of the other cats when they “ask” her- there are no unusual problems or patterns of behavior that show stress in any of the cats... but the marking continues.

I have been keeping track of day and location, and it occurs almost daily and has occurred since last July. There are occasionally breaks of a week or two, but there are no noticeable differences between the days it occurs and the it does not. There is no pattern in terms of location or substrate, although the chairs and couches in the living room are the recent preferred targets. It usually occurs on a plastic bag, clothes, or papers rather than a hard surface. When I have seen Poppy marking, she both sprays and squats (that is, she marks on both vertical and horizontal surfaces). There has been marking at every time of day, both when I am home and when I am not. It has occurred in every room of the house at one time or another. It does not seem to be attention-related; Poppy has sprayed immediately after a long combing session. It truly seems to have no consistent pattern, except, unfortunately, the frequency.

I have added an extra litter box, tried Feliway, and am trying CBD oil with no results. I clean the soiled areas as soon as I detect them with Nature’s Miracle and then discard or wash whatever’s affected.

I do not believe this is a medical issue, as it started after she got a clean bill of health last year and has continued . I have seen Poppy use each of the litter boxes, and I clean them daily, so I don’t think it is litter box aversion. There are no obvious triggers to the marking. I have observed her eating in the morning, then hopping on a chair, spraying, then calmly hopping down and plopping on the floor to relax. Neither she nor any of the other cats demonstrates any sign of stress or distress; they hang out in all areas of the house, both alone and together in different combinations, with no issues.

Like another poster here on the site, I am to the point that I just deal with this- all the furniture is covered in waterproof covers, I keep lots of paper towels and Nature’s Miracle cleaner around, and do lots of laundry, but I fear for my sanity for the next 15 years of Poppy’s life if this continues.
She is a good cat 99% of the time! I do not want to re-home her or any of the other cats . I have had Poppy over two years now but wonder if this behavior is the reason why she was abandoned and ended up living outside. She lived with other cats in her foster home, and marking was never mentioned, so I have no clue why she continues to do this or if it will eventually cease.

Any suggestions are welcome. Again, I do not think this is a medical issue since it has occurred for such a long period of time. I did mention it when I was at the vet with the other cats, and he agreed that it was very likely a behavioral issue...

"It has been a very long time since I’ve updated this thread, but I’m reaching out for help again, unfortunately." - That is ok, that is why we are here.

"Sadly, Rudy was diagnosed with dry FIP and passed away 2/2/2020." - I am SO SORRY RIP Rudy.

"Things had gotten much better between her and Poppy, perhaps because she was ill, and they sensed it long before she became symptomatic. It was a very hard time." - I am so glad they got along better before her passing. That is wonderful.

"The remaining four cats got along very well;" - Ok

" things were great until July, when I took Poppy to the vet for her annual checkup. This was when owners were not allowed inside with pets, so I handed her off in her carrier to the assistant. I got a call shortly after to “come in and catch your cat”; she was trying to bite them when they attempted a nail trim, and they couldn’t pick her up to put her in the carrier . As I explained to them, Poppy had not seen any other humans since I adopted her, on top of being previously feral, so this wasn’t exactly abnormal (she was fine when I came in- I was able to pick her up and take her home). " - It is very stressful sadly.

"Later that day, however, she peed in the living room. I attributed it to the stress of the day" - Totally agree.

"Foolishly, still thinking about the loss of Rudy and my other previous polydactyl girls, I adopted two polydactyl kittens in August." - :/ I wouldn't say "foolishly". You wanted to save lives.

"They were from the same small town as my first cat, Lena; I thought this was a sign (otherwise, I would not have taken them). I say foolishly, because after they came home, even though I followed all the introduction guidelines very carefully, the marking started again." - How long did you do the intro? I am guessing the marking came from territorial insecurity.

"While I can’t say it is exclusively Poppy, I have caught her multiple multiple times, so I assume she is the main, if not only, culprit." - Yes, often it can be another cat we don't suspect. :/

"That said, there are no obvious issues or conflicts between any of the cats. They interact very well. There is no hiding or pouncing like there was with Rudy and Poppy." - Hmmmmmmm, interesting.

"They share food and water bowls (there are many), litter boxes (7), and hang out in the same areas of the house." - Interesting.

" There are occasional swats if someone bothers someone else, but that’s just normal cat behavior." - Yes and if it is respected it actually can be less likely to lead to issues.

" Poppy and usually several others sleep on my bed." - Great

" Poppy always greets me at the door with several of her “sisters”, she grooms several of the other cats when they “ask” her- there are no unusual problems or patterns of behavior that show stress in any of the cats... but the marking continues." - Hmmmmmmmm

Do you have ferals, other cats or other animals that come around the house? Or shared walls with neighbors?

"I have been keeping track of day and location, and it occurs almost daily and has occurred since last July." - Ok. Are you using am enzymatic cleaner to clean the areas?

" There are occasionally breaks of a week or two," - Ok, great.

" but there are no noticeable differences between the days it occurs and the it does not." - Hmmmm, ok.

" There is no pattern in terms of location or substrate, " - Ok

"although the chairs and couches in the living room are the recent preferred targets." - Ok, what can the cats see from those places? outside? Do you keep the windows clear at night so they can look out?

"It usually occurs on a plastic bag, clothes, or papers rather than a hard surface." - Yes, because most of those can "feel" like litter.

"When I have seen Poppy marking, she both sprays and squats (that is, she marks on both vertical and horizontal surfaces)." - Ok, that tells me it is saying "hey, I OWN this!!! STAY AWAY!!!"

" There has been marking at every time of day, both when I am home and when I am not. It has occurred in every room of the house at one time or another." - Ok

"It does not seem to be attention-related;" - No, it is all about territorial insecurity I think.

" Poppy has sprayed immediately after a long combing session." - Hmmmmmm, ok. Anything that might suggest her stress was higher after that?

"It truly seems to have no consistent pattern, except, unfortunately, the frequency." - OK, we will figure it out.

"I have added an extra litter box," - Great. Litter boxes are VERY important to cats so anywhere you think is a significant place try to think about putting a box there. They can "own" that area in a more appropriate way.

" tried Feliway, and am trying CBD oil with no results." - yes, not surprising.

" I clean the soiled areas as soon as I detect them with Nature’s Miracle and then discard or wash whatever’s affected." - Ok, good.

"I do not believe this is a medical issue, as it started after she got a clean bill of health last year and has continued ." - Could it be a paw or leg issue? Pain can do it. Does she cover anything when she does use the litter box?

"I have seen Poppy use each of the litter boxes, and I clean them daily, so I don’t think it is litter box aversion." - OK

" There are no obvious triggers to the marking. I have observed her eating in the morning, then hopping on a chair, spraying, then calmly hopping down and plopping on the floor to relax. " - Hmmmm, there is someone she is trying to tell "this is hers".

"Neither she nor any of the other cats demonstrates any sign of stress or distress; they hang out in all areas of the house, both alone and together in different combinations, with no issues." - Hmmmmmm, ok.

"Like another poster here on the site, I am to the point that I just deal with this- all the furniture is covered in waterproof covers, I keep lots of paper towels and Nature’s Miracle cleaner around, and do lots of laundry, but I fear for my sanity for the next 15 years of Poppy’s life if this continues." - Yes BUT we will solve this. The instinct it to cover their scent so we will do everything we can to solve this.

"She is a good cat 99% of the time! " - Yes, she is crying out for help. She isn't doing it because she wants to , she feels like she "has" to.

"I do not want to re-home her or any of the other cats ." - AGREED!!!

" I have had Poppy over two years now but wonder if this behavior is the reason why she was abandoned and ended up living outside." - Possibly. And possibly she suffered serious trauma while on the streets.

" She lived with other cats in her foster home, and marking was never mentioned, so I have no clue why she continues to do this or if it will eventually cease." - We can end it I believe.

"Any suggestions are welcome. Again, I do not think this is a medical issue since it has occurred for such a long period of time. I did mention it when I was at the vet with the other cats, and he agreed that it was very likely a behavioral issue..." - Ok. Keep an eye on her walking, squatting, covering the litter, etc. Let's keep an eye out for any leg, paw, etc issues.

So let's see about what animals from outside might be coming around or she can see. Can you black light the outside to see if any pee is around the house?

Even though Rudy passed away almost 18 months ago I wonder if there is some grieving going on especially with new cats coming in.

How does she walk around the house? Low to the ground? Tail down, cautious? Avoid certain areas? Etc. Does she look like she owns the place or kinda insecure?

I would like to really step up play in the areas where she is peeing. Serious good play then feed treats or a meal after the play.

Also, can you get more scent soakers around the house? Cat trees, scratching posts, bedding, etc. Anything she can get her scent on (appropriately) so she can "own" it more.

Also, if you own the residence can you put up cat shelving? So she can go high most place? It can actually look quite nice AND it gives a cat confidence by going high watching what is happening below (a bit of an escape as well).

Also you mentioned you feel foolish. Cats take on our emotions so it is really important to stay calm, confident and positive as much as possible. I KNOW it is hard when a cat pees all over BUT if we get upset they only get more upset. They do not want to pee outside the box, it is a cry for help.

You adopted the new cats. It is done, now let's get them happy and stop the peeing.

And give her a lot of love. Just hang out in those places. Reassure. Help be her source of confidence as well. Give eye kisses, if you can give love safely without risk of being hurt at all feel free. Just de-compress with her and try to transfer that confident feeling.

Let's see the answers to the questions above and let's try the above and see what works, what isn't etc.

Something is going on, we may or may not figure out what is causing it BUT if we build her confidence with Play, Food, Height and Love we should be able to end it.

Hang in there. We will do everything possible to solve this. THANK YOU for standing by her!!!

 

[MichMare]

I can’t seem to figure out how to duplicate the previous message and answer like you did, so I will just answer your questions in order.

The introduction of the “babies”, Paulina and Georgia, was around 2 months (time flows oddly in this time of covid). I don’t exactly remember, probably since it went smoothly- certainly nothing like when Poppy met Rudy and Frankie. I don’t remember any issues other than the marking.

There are no feral cats that I know of in the neighborhood. Lots of other wildlife (birds, chipmunks, occasionally a skunk, groundhogs). I have seen neighborhood cats wander through the yard, but they generally don’t go close to the house; if they do, they don’t linger. There are no shared walls- freestanding ranch-style house.

Yes- I use enzymatic cleaners.

The places in the LR that are recent targets, and, in checking my “marking diary”, even the other past targets, are not vantage points from which to look outdoors. The chairs in the LR are 6-10 feet from the windows, and the sofa is closer to the window but has a sofa table in between it and the window. The windows are floor to ceiling. The marking occurs on the seats of the chairs and couch, so not vantage points to outside.
The girls can easily look outside anytime- it’s easy to get behind the curtains. I believe some of the cats roam the house at night, but Poppy usually comes to bed with me or soon after.

I agree that this appears to be territorial insecurity!

There are truly no signs, overt or subtle, of stress or distress on the part of Poppy or anyone else. Most of the time she is sprawled out on top of the couch, on top of stacks of storage bins or the top of an armoire, or watching out the windows or screen doors (when I’m home). She is chilled out most of the time. She does not seem to have a preference for being alone or with the other cats.

I will add box #8 in the living room this week. I don’t think this issue has anything to do with box number or location, but I’ve tried everything else.

No, she shows no signs or symptoms of any foot or leg pain. She is a jumper- likes to jump on top of the uptight piano, the dressers, armoires, etc. She will even jump from the top of a dresser to the top of an open bedroom door...this is something she did at her foster home, too. She doesn’t appear to go up high to evade anyone- she seems to like the vantage point and the adventure of it. None of her high places are exclusive to her- often several of the cats will lounge on top of the atmoite in the master- and she doesn’t mind if someone else plops near her.

I’ve never looked for urine outside, as the areas marked aren’t near the doors or windows. All the girls like to sit by the doors and windows if open (screened). No issues if 3-4 are there together.
Perhaps once or twice there was marking by the porch door in the past 13 months, probably due to a visit from a neighborhood cat when the door was closed, but absolutely not habitual.

I don’t think this has anything to do with Rudy.
#3 & #4, Maisie and Lulu, arrived in October, 2019, when Rudy was still alive. They lived in the sun porch with short visits from Frankie and Poppy and got the run of the house after Rudy died. That integration was seamless- never had any marking after they joined Pops and Frankie in the house. (That’s why I feel like I pushed the envelope too far- the dynamic was good with four- but live and learn)

No, none of the cats shows any tail down, excessive caution, or avoids specific areas. All of them act like they own the place (they do)! There are no clear alphas- they really just interact pretty peacefully. Perhaps there is slight deference to Poppy and Frankie from the younger cats, but I don’t know if it would be obvious to a casual observer. Georgia, the smallest of them all, can be a little pesky ( imagine a little sister wanting to do what her big siblings are doing- that’s how I’d describe Georgia) (and she’s the only calico- go figure), but nobody seems bothered by her . If a cat could roll its eyes, they would at her- the rest of the cats just go about their business. They eat together (2feeding stations in two different rooms), hang out separately and apart, often sleep on the same bed- nothing abnormal except the persistent marking.

Ironic you mention play in the affected area- on Sunday I was in the living room straightening the many furniture covers, which I’d just laundered, and noticed Poppy licking an old catnip toy- she seemed happy enough- until she hopped on one of the chairs and sprayed the cover and adjacent side table. Ugh... none of the other cats were anywhere around. She immediately hopped to another perch and did her comfy sprawl...a real head shaker for sure.

They have the run of the house; I’m not sure if adding more will help or just give more targets. There are high and low routes of travel everywhere; no one is ever trapped . There are plenty of elevated places, as I’ve mentioned- top of dressers, armoires, top of stacked storage bins, window ledges and perches. All of the cats seem to enjoy these places- all seem interchangeable and , fingers crossed, have never been marked.

I have learned not to bother getting upset. It has zero effect on Poppy , she looks at me like I’m nuts, and I certainly don’t want to have a heart attack! That said, am I taking out the garbage in tears sometimes, sure. I made this choice, and I have to deal with the consequences, good and bad; it’s just a lot to deal with every day when there are no obvious signs of how I could help make whomever is marking . I’m not sure what to do to make their lives less stressful; they seem like they have it pretty good! I try to give them equal attention / attention when they ask.

Thanks in advance for your continued advice; hopefully we can figure it out.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I can’t seem to figure out how to duplicate the previous message and answer like you did, so I will just answer your questions in order.

The introduction of the “babies”, Paulina and Georgia, was around 2 months (time flows oddly in this time of covid). I don’t exactly remember, probably since it went smoothly- certainly nothing like when Poppy met Rudy and Frankie. I don’t remember any issues other than the marking.

There are no feral cats that I know of in the neighborhood. Lots of other wildlife (birds, chipmunks, occasionally a skunk, groundhogs). I have seen neighborhood cats wander through the yard, but they generally don’t go close to the house; if they do, they don’t linger. There are no shared walls- freestanding ranch-style house.

Yes- I use enzymatic cleaners.

The places in the LR that are recent targets, and, in checking my “marking diary”, even the other past targets, are not vantage points from which to look outdoors. The chairs in the LR are 6-10 feet from the windows, and the sofa is closer to the window but has a sofa table in between it and the window. The windows are floor to ceiling. The marking occurs on the seats of the chairs and couch, so not vantage points to outside.
The girls can easily look outside anytime- it’s easy to get behind the curtains. I believe some of the cats roam the house at night, but Poppy usually comes to bed with me or soon after.

I agree that this appears to be territorial insecurity!

There are truly no signs, overt or subtle, of stress or distress on the part of Poppy or anyone else. Most of the time she is sprawled out on top of the couch, on top of stacks of storage bins or the top of an armoire, or watching out the windows or screen doors (when I’m home). She is chilled out most of the time. She does not seem to have a preference for being alone or with the other cats.

I will add box #8 in the living room this week. I don’t think this issue has anything to do with box number or location, but I’ve tried everything else.

No, she shows no signs or symptoms of any foot or leg pain. She is a jumper- likes to jump on top of the uptight piano, the dressers, armoires, etc. She will even jump from the top of a dresser to the top of an open bedroom door...this is something she did at her foster home, too. She doesn’t appear to go up high to evade anyone- she seems to like the vantage point and the adventure of it. None of her high places are exclusive to her- often several of the cats will lounge on top of the atmoite in the master- and she doesn’t mind if someone else plops near her.

I’ve never looked for urine outside, as the areas marked aren’t near the doors or windows. All the girls like to sit by the doors and windows if open (screened). No issues if 3-4 are there together.
Perhaps once or twice there was marking by the porch door in the past 13 months, probably due to a visit from a neighborhood cat when the door was closed, but absolutely not habitual.

I don’t think this has anything to do with Rudy.
#3 & #4, Maisie and Lulu, arrived in October, 2019, when Rudy was still alive. They lived in the sun porch with short visits from Frankie and Poppy and got the run of the house after Rudy died. That integration was seamless- never had any marking after they joined Pops and Frankie in the house. (That’s why I feel like I pushed the envelope too far- the dynamic was good with four- but live and learn)

No, none of the cats shows any tail down, excessive caution, or avoids specific areas. All of them act like they own the place (they do)! There are no clear alphas- they really just interact pretty peacefully. Perhaps there is slight deference to Poppy and Frankie from the younger cats, but I don’t know if it would be obvious to a casual observer. Georgia, the smallest of them all, can be a little pesky ( imagine a little sister wanting to do what her big siblings are doing- that’s how I’d describe Georgia) (and she’s the only calico- go figure), but nobody seems bothered by her . If a cat could roll its eyes, they would at her- the rest of the cats just go about their business. They eat together (2feeding stations in two different rooms), hang out separately and apart, often sleep on the same bed- nothing abnormal except the persistent marking.

Ironic you mention play in the affected area- on Sunday I was in the living room straightening the many furniture covers, which I’d just laundered, and noticed Poppy licking an old catnip toy- she seemed happy enough- until she hopped on one of the chairs and sprayed the cover and adjacent side table. Ugh... none of the other cats were anywhere around. She immediately hopped to another perch and did her comfy sprawl...a real head shaker for sure.

They have the run of the house; I’m not sure if adding more will help or just give more targets. There are high and low routes of travel everywhere; no one is ever trapped . There are plenty of elevated places, as I’ve mentioned- top of dressers, armoires, top of stacked storage bins, window ledges and perches. All of the cats seem to enjoy these places- all seem interchangeable and , fingers crossed, have never been marked.

I have learned not to bother getting upset. It has zero effect on Poppy , she looks at me like I’m nuts, and I certainly don’t want to have a heart attack! That said, am I taking out the garbage in tears sometimes, sure. I made this choice, and I have to deal with the consequences, good and bad; it’s just a lot to deal with every day when there are no obvious signs of how I could help make whomever is marking . I’m not sure what to do to make their lives less stressful; they seem like they have it pretty good! I try to give them equal attention / attention when they ask.

Thanks in advance for your continued advice; hopefully we can figure it out.

"I can’t seem to figure out how to duplicate the previous message and answer like you did, so I will just answer your questions in order." - Ok. What I do is copy the whole message then put in quotes, read that and hit return and respond. It works pretty well and helps me remember what was written. Hope that helps a little. I am sure you answered well.

"The introduction of the “babies”, Paulina and Georgia, was around 2 months" - OK

" (time flows oddly in this time of covid)." - I KNOW!!!

" I don’t exactly remember, probably since it went smoothly- certainly nothing like when Poppy met Rudy and Frankie. I don’t remember any issues other than the marking." - Ok. When did the marking start? (I am sorry, I think you mentioned it but I can't remember sadly). Did it start right away then continue? Or during the intro process or after?

"There are no feral cats that I know of in the neighborhood." - Ok. DO you have a blacklight? If so, can you take a look outside and see if there is any marking from other cats?

" Lots of other wildlife (birds, chipmunks, occasionally a skunk, groundhogs)." - Any coyotes?

" I have seen neighborhood cats wander through the yard, but they generally don’t go close to the house; if they do, they don’t linger. " - Ok. Have you ever seen any of the cats see them and respond? Any response from them that is abnormal?

"There are no shared walls- freestanding ranch-style house." - Ok

"Yes- I use enzymatic cleaners." - Great.

"The places in the LR that are recent targets, and, in checking my “marking diary”, even the other past targets, are not vantage points from which to look outdoors." - Hmmmmm, ok.

" The chairs in the LR are 6-10 feet from the windows," - ANy other soft surfaces between the chairs and the windows?

" and the sofa is closer to the window but has a sofa table in between it and the window." - Ok, so it is pretty close to that window. What does that window look out to?

" The windows are floor to ceiling." - Interesting. Ok. That means they can really see a cat on the ground IF that cat comes up to the window. So if one of the indoor cats is on the table behind the sofa they could probably look down to the ground very near the window.

"The marking occurs on the seats of the chairs and couch, so not vantage points to outside." - Ok

The girls can easily look outside anytime- it’s easy to get behind the curtains.

"I believe some of the cats roam the house at night," - Yes, probably.

" but Poppy usually comes to bed with me or soon after." - Ok. Where are the new cats during that time? And I am a bit confused, how many cats total are there? Poppy, the 2 new kittens and ............

"I agree that this appears to be territorial insecurity!" - Yes. :/

"There are truly no signs, overt or subtle, of stress or distress on the part of Poppy or anyone else." - Ok

" Most of the time she is sprawled out on top of the couch, on top of stacks of storage bins or the top of an armoire, or watching out the windows or screen doors (when I’m home). She is chilled out most of the time. She does not seem to have a preference for being alone or with the other cats." - Ok

"I will add box #8 in the living room this week. I don’t think this issue has anything to do with box number or location, but I’ve tried everything else." - Great. It just gives the cats an option to use a box rather than a chair etc. SO they can get their scent on something but in a good way.

"No, she shows no signs or symptoms of any foot or leg pain." - Ok, good.

She is a jumper- likes to jump on top of the uptight piano, the dressers, armoires, etc. She will even jump from the top of a dresser to the top of an open bedroom door...this is something she did at her foster home, too. " - Ok

"She doesn’t appear to go up high to evade anyone- she seems to like the vantage point and the adventure of it." - YES!!!! Hahahahaha, some cats LOVE it!!!

"None of her high places are exclusive to her- often several of the cats will lounge on top of the atmoite in the master- and she doesn’t mind if someone else plops near her." - Well THAT is great.

"I’ve never looked for urine outside," - Ok, if you have a blacklight it would be interesting to confirm there is nothing.

" as the areas marked aren’t near the doors or windows." - Yes :/

Do you do any volunteer work with other animals? Or anyone else in the house? Is it possible scent from other animals are coming in with anyone's clothes?

"All the girls like to sit by the doors and windows if open (screened). No issues if 3-4 are there together." - Hmmmmmm, it sure doesn't seem like it is any of the indoor cats causing it at this point. :/

"Perhaps once or twice there was marking by the porch door in the past 13 months, " - On the inside? Or the outside.

"probably due to a visit from a neighborhood cat when the door was closed, but absolutely not habitual." - Interesting. I have a feeling there may be more visits than you think. DO you have a motion activated camera to capture any movement?

"I don’t think this has anything to do with Rudy." - Ok. Grieving can remain for a long while. It can be traumatic and more sometimes then we realize. :/ BUT whether it is or isn't we would do the same thing to help.

"#3 & #4, Maisie and Lulu, arrived in October, 2019, when Rudy was still alive. They lived in the sun porch with short visits from Frankie and Poppy and got the run of the house after Rudy died. That integration was seamless- never had any marking after they joined Pops and Frankie in the house. " - Great

"(That’s why I feel like I pushed the envelope too far- the dynamic was good with four- but live and learn)" - But it sound like they get along (except for the marking). I wonder if it isn't always Poppy. If you have a camera can you set it up and see if we can catch anyone?

"No, none of the cats shows any tail down, excessive caution, or avoids specific areas. All of them act like they own the place (they do)! There are no clear alphas- they really just interact pretty peacefully. " - Hmmmmmmmm, that is great BUT sure doesn't make the cause of the marking obvious.

"Perhaps there is slight deference to Poppy and Frankie from the younger cats," - That would actually be helpful, better.

"but I don’t know if it would be obvious to a casual observer." - Ok

" Georgia, the smallest of them all, can be a little pesky ( imagine a little sister wanting to do what her big siblings are doing- that’s how I’d describe Georgia) " - Yes but that usually doesn't cause issues. BUT I just wonder if she might be marking...............

"(and she’s the only calico- go figure)," - Hahahahahaha!!! Calicosrspecial!!!!

" but nobody seems bothered by her ." - Great

" If a cat could roll its eyes, they would at her- the rest of the cats just go about their business." - Exactly

" They eat together (2feeding stations in two different rooms), hang out separately and apart, often sleep on the same bed- nothing abnormal except the persistent marking." - It just doesn't seem like it is between the indoor cats. :/

"Ironic you mention play in the affected area- on Sunday I was in the living room straightening the many furniture covers, which I’d just laundered, and noticed Poppy licking an old catnip toy- she seemed happy enough- until she hopped on one of the chairs and sprayed the cover and adjacent side table." - How old of a toy? Is it possible Rudy played with that toy or toys like that?

"Ugh... none of the other cats were anywhere around. She immediately hopped to another perch and did her comfy sprawl...a real head shaker for sure." - And there was nothing outside? No noises, animals etc?

"They have the run of the house; I’m not sure if adding more will help or just give more targets. There are high and low routes of travel everywhere; no one is ever trapped . There are plenty of elevated places, as I’ve mentioned- top of dressers, armoires, top of stacked storage bins, window ledges and perches. All of the cats seem to enjoy these places- all seem interchangeable and , fingers crossed, have never been marked." - Well that is great.

"I have learned not to bother getting upset. It has zero effect on Poppy ," - Yes, actually if we get upset, angry it actually makes it worse. SO great job!! It is VERY HARD but it sounds like you are doing great!!

" she looks at me like I’m nuts," - :/ Well, I am not sure of that. I think she thinks "how awesome!!! What a great home I have".

" and I certainly don’t want to have a heart attack!" - Yes

"That said, am I taking out the garbage in tears sometimes, sure." -

" I made this choice, and I have to deal with the consequences, good and bad; " - We will do everything we can to solve this.

"it’s just a lot to deal with every day when there are no obvious signs of how I could help make whomever is marking ." - Yes

" I’m not sure what to do to make their lives less stressful;" - I think we should think about outside deterrents if possible. Maybe those automated sprinklers that are motion activated, or the air blowers or ultrasonic devices.

" they seem like they have it pretty good!" - Sounds like they have it great!!!

" I try to give them equal attention / attention when they ask." - Great

"Thanks in advance for your continued advice; hopefully we can figure it out. " - You are welcome. I hope so. Usually it is fairly obvious. Lack of confidence shows, bad relationships, stressed humans, etc. Outside animals are often the cause though.

So think about outside deterrents. Also, step up play in those areas then feed after. Hang out, reassure, love in those areas. Keep an eye on any body language/confidence issues. I am interested in hearing about the catnip toy. Maybe we should think about no catnip and see.

And please update me on anything. Keep a close eye on them, see if there is any pattern. Think about the cameras so we can see exactly who might be doing it (I suspect it is more than one).

Hang in there. I think you did a great job saving lives and getting them intro'd. IF the marking is coming from their relationship I would be very surprised. I just wonder if an intact or some predator etc might have come around when the new cats came in and caused this. Those outside deterrents would make a difference if that is the case.

You are so awesome. Hang in there. Let's figure this out.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I can’t seem to figure out how to duplicate the previous message and answer like you did, so I will just answer your questions in order.

The introduction of the “babies”, Paulina and Georgia, was around 2 months (time flows oddly in this time of covid). I don’t exactly remember, probably since it went smoothly- certainly nothing like when Poppy met Rudy and Frankie. I don’t remember any issues other than the marking.

There are no feral cats that I know of in the neighborhood. Lots of other wildlife (birds, chipmunks, occasionally a skunk, groundhogs). I have seen neighborhood cats wander through the yard, but they generally don’t go close to the house; if they do, they don’t linger. There are no shared walls- freestanding ranch-style house.

Yes- I use enzymatic cleaners.

The places in the LR that are recent targets, and, in checking my “marking diary”, even the other past targets, are not vantage points from which to look outdoors. The chairs in the LR are 6-10 feet from the windows, and the sofa is closer to the window but has a sofa table in between it and the window. The windows are floor to ceiling. The marking occurs on the seats of the chairs and couch, so not vantage points to outside.
The girls can easily look outside anytime- it’s easy to get behind the curtains. I believe some of the cats roam the house at night, but Poppy usually comes to bed with me or soon after.

I agree that this appears to be territorial insecurity!

There are truly no signs, overt or subtle, of stress or distress on the part of Poppy or anyone else. Most of the time she is sprawled out on top of the couch, on top of stacks of storage bins or the top of an armoire, or watching out the windows or screen doors (when I’m home). She is chilled out most of the time. She does not seem to have a preference for being alone or with the other cats.

I will add box #8 in the living room this week. I don’t think this issue has anything to do with box number or location, but I’ve tried everything else.

No, she shows no signs or symptoms of any foot or leg pain. She is a jumper- likes to jump on top of the uptight piano, the dressers, armoires, etc. She will even jump from the top of a dresser to the top of an open bedroom door...this is something she did at her foster home, too. She doesn’t appear to go up high to evade anyone- she seems to like the vantage point and the adventure of it. None of her high places are exclusive to her- often several of the cats will lounge on top of the atmoite in the master- and she doesn’t mind if someone else plops near her.

I’ve never looked for urine outside, as the areas marked aren’t near the doors or windows. All the girls like to sit by the doors and windows if open (screened). No issues if 3-4 are there together.
Perhaps once or twice there was marking by the porch door in the past 13 months, probably due to a visit from a neighborhood cat when the door was closed, but absolutely not habitual.

I don’t think this has anything to do with Rudy.
#3 & #4, Maisie and Lulu, arrived in October, 2019, when Rudy was still alive. They lived in the sun porch with short visits from Frankie and Poppy and got the run of the house after Rudy died. That integration was seamless- never had any marking after they joined Pops and Frankie in the house. (That’s why I feel like I pushed the envelope too far- the dynamic was good with four- but live and learn)

No, none of the cats shows any tail down, excessive caution, or avoids specific areas. All of them act like they own the place (they do)! There are no clear alphas- they really just interact pretty peacefully. Perhaps there is slight deference to Poppy and Frankie from the younger cats, but I don’t know if it would be obvious to a casual observer. Georgia, the smallest of them all, can be a little pesky ( imagine a little sister wanting to do what her big siblings are doing- that’s how I’d describe Georgia) (and she’s the only calico- go figure), but nobody seems bothered by her . If a cat could roll its eyes, they would at her- the rest of the cats just go about their business. They eat together (2feeding stations in two different rooms), hang out separately and apart, often sleep on the same bed- nothing abnormal except the persistent marking.

Ironic you mention play in the affected area- on Sunday I was in the living room straightening the many furniture covers, which I’d just laundered, and noticed Poppy licking an old catnip toy- she seemed happy enough- until she hopped on one of the chairs and sprayed the cover and adjacent side table. Ugh... none of the other cats were anywhere around. She immediately hopped to another perch and did her comfy sprawl...a real head shaker for sure.

They have the run of the house; I’m not sure if adding more will help or just give more targets. There are high and low routes of travel everywhere; no one is ever trapped . There are plenty of elevated places, as I’ve mentioned- top of dressers, armoires, top of stacked storage bins, window ledges and perches. All of the cats seem to enjoy these places- all seem interchangeable and , fingers crossed, have never been marked.

I have learned not to bother getting upset. It has zero effect on Poppy , she looks at me like I’m nuts, and I certainly don’t want to have a heart attack! That said, am I taking out the garbage in tears sometimes, sure. I made this choice, and I have to deal with the consequences, good and bad; it’s just a lot to deal with every day when there are no obvious signs of how I could help make whomever is marking . I’m not sure what to do to make their lives less stressful; they seem like they have it pretty good! I try to give them equal attention / attention when they ask.

Thanks in advance for your continued advice; hopefully we can figure it out.

Just wanted to check in and see how you are doing and how the cats are doing and if the last post was helpful at all.

Hope things are going better. Hang in there.

 

[MichMare]

Thanks for checking in. Unfortunately, things are about the same, maybe a little worse.
I will answer last time’s questions first...


" I don’t exactly remember, probably since it went smoothly- certainly nothing like when Poppy met Rudy and Frankie. I don’t remember any issues other than the marking." - Ok. When did the marking start? (I am sorry, I think you mentioned it but I can't remember sadly). Did it start right away then continue? Or during the intro process or after?
The marking started after Poppy’s vet checkup 7/2020. In looking back at the “marking calendar”, it was sporadic then (after intro of 2 youngest cats ) and has steadily increased to daily occurrences. Ironically, this year+ of marking has been far worse than the couple of occurrences for which I initially sought advice when Rudy was still alive...

"There are no feral cats that I know of in the neighborhood." - Ok. DO you have a blacklight? If so, can you take a look outside and see if there is any marking from other cats?
I looked around the exterior doors and the windows that open near ground level ; I did not see anything. Granted, I was using a black light flashlight and not a huge beacon, but I didn’t see any signs of marking from neighborhood cats. It has rained/ stormed in the past few days, so that could have erased signs.


" Lots of other wildlife (birds, chipmunks, occasionally a skunk, groundhogs)." - Any coyotes?
No coyotes that I’ve heard about.

" I have seen neighborhood cats wander through the yard, but they generally don’t go close to the house; if they do, they don’t linger. " - Ok. Have you ever seen any of the cats see them and respond? Any response from them that is abnormal?
No unusual responses; one of the cats (Frankie)will make some weird meowing noises if another cat comes up to a window or door, but no one attacks the windows or does anything strange.

"The places in the LR that are recent targets, and, in checking my “marking diary”, even the other past targets, are not vantage points from which to look outdoors."
" The chairs in the LR are 6-10 feet from the windows," - ANy other soft surfaces between the chairs and the windows?
" and the sofa is closer to the window but has a sofa table in between it and the window." - Ok, so it is pretty close to that window. What does that window look out to?
" The windows are floor to ceiling." - Interesting. Ok. That means they can really see a cat on the ground IF that cat comes up to the window. So if one of the indoor cats is on the table behind the sofa they could probably look down to the ground very near the window.

I did not describe the layout very well. The living room windows are always covered by both sheer and heavier curtains (I am kind of a freak about privacy). The cats have perches/ huts that sit between the windows and sheers , and they can sit on the floor between the sheers and the windows, but they cannot see out the windows from either the sofa or any of the chairs in the living room.

" but Poppy usually comes to bed with me or soon after." - Ok. Where are the new cats during that time? And I am a bit confused, how many cats total are there? Poppy, the 2 new kittens and ............
There are 6 cats-
Frankie arrived June 2019, around 1 year old then
Poppy arrived four days later, around 1 year old then
Lulu and Maisie , dob 7/11/19, arrived October 2019
Georgia and Paulina, dob 3/25/20, arrived August 2020
Usually Poppy and Frankie come to bed right away; depending on the weather (hot or cold), some of the other cats usually also end up on the bed as well. Where do they sleep otherwise? Not sure, although I have a feeling it could be the sofa and chairs in the living room and the couch in the porch...

" Do you do any volunteer work with other animals? Or anyone else in the house? Is it possible scent from other animals are coming in with anyone's clothes?
No, no contact with any other animals.
I am the only human in the house (insert crazy cat lady joke here).


"All the girls like to sit by the doors and windows if open (screened). No issues if 3-4 are there together." - Hmmmmmm, it sure doesn't seem like it is any of the indoor cats causing it at this point. :/
Yes...and that makes this all the more frustrating...

"Perhaps once or twice there was marking by the porch door in the past 13 months, " - On the inside? Or the outside.
Inside- glass door- was last fall, so 11 months ago

"probably due to a visit from a neighborhood cat when the door was closed, but absolutely not habitual." - Interesting. I have a feeling there may be more visits than you think. DO you have a motion activated camera to capture any movement?
No, but I have been looking for ones I could use on the interior...

"I don’t think this has anything to do with Rudy." - Ok. Grieving can remain for a long while. It can be traumatic and more sometimes then we realize. :/ BUT whether it is or isn't we would do the same thing to help.
Again, not sure, but I’ll try anything at this point.

"(That’s why I feel like I pushed the envelope too far- the dynamic was good with four- but live and learn)" - But it sound like they get along (except for the marking). I wonder if it isn't always Poppy. If you have a camera can you set it up and see if we can catch anyone?
Again, I’m searching for a camera now. I’d like to find one that doesn’t rely on WiFi and isn’t exorbitantly expensive...

"No, none of the cats shows any tail down, excessive caution, or avoids specific areas. All of them act like they own the place (they do)! There are no clear alphas- they really just interact pretty peacefully. " - Hmmmmmmmm, that is great BUT sure doesn't make the cause of the marking obvious.
Agreed. The only thing I’ve noticed right before Poppy sprays is that she sniffs and sniffs the area...which makes me think she’s either repeating her marks (yes) and /or covering someone else’s marks (urine or otherwise). She also “taps” areas that have been soiled, but since that is often what alerts me to an area, it’s always after the fact, so I don’t know if she’s done it or someone else.

" Georgia, the smallest of them all, can be a little pesky ( imagine a little sister wanting to do what her big siblings are doing- that’s how I’d describe Georgia) " - Yes but that usually doesn't cause issues. BUT I just wonder if she might be marking...............
I have never caught her doing so, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t.

"(and she’s the only calico- go figure)," - Hahahahahaha!!! Calicosrspecial!!!!

" but nobody seems bothered by her ." - Great
I should mention that Georgia thinks she is bigger than she is- she will give the others a swat and will even give the occasional hiss- but this appears well within normal cat behavior, and , as I said before-
" If a cat could roll its eyes, they would at her- the rest of the cats just go about their business."

Last night Georgia and Frankie were already on the bed when I went to bed, the Poppy hopped up a few minutes later. Absolutely no issues.

" They eat together (2feeding stations in two different rooms), hang out separately and apart, often sleep on the same bed- nothing abnormal except the persistent marking." - It just doesn't seem like it is between the indoor cats. :/

"Ironic you mention play in the affected area- on Sunday I was in the living room straightening the many furniture covers, which I’d just laundered, and noticed Poppy licking an old catnip toy- she seemed happy enough- until she hopped on one of the chairs and sprayed the cover and adjacent side table." - How old of a toy? Is it possible Rudy played with that toy or toys like that?
Possible, as some toys get lost and then resurface. This one is one anyone could have licked at one point. Easily over a year old.

"Ugh... none of the other cats were anywhere around. She immediately hopped to another perch and did her comfy sprawl...a real head shaker for sure." - And there was nothing outside? No noises, animals etc?
Nope. Couldn’t even see outside from there, and she hadn’t been by the windows.

" I made this choice, and I have to deal with the consequences, good and bad; " - We will do everything we can to solve this.
I hope so. I feel very overwhelmed at this point. It is not easy getting out of bed knowing there will probably be some soiling, finding it, and then cleaning it. Not the best way to start the day, not the best way to unwind upon returning home, either.

"it’s just a lot to deal with every day when there are no obvious signs of how I could help make whomever is marking ." - Yes

" I’m not sure what to do to make their lives less stressful;" - I think we should think about outside deterrents if possible. Maybe those automated sprinklers that are motion activated, or the air blowers or ultrasonic devices.
I do have motion-activated security lights in the front and back.

" they seem like they have it pretty good!" - Sounds like they have it great!!!
Not sure about that; clearly, someone isn’t thrilled. See below...

"Thanks in advance for your continued advice; hopefully we can figure it out. " - You are welcome. I hope so. Usually it is fairly obvious. Lack of confidence shows, bad relationships, stressed humans, etc. Outside animals are often the cause though.

So think about outside deterrents. Also, step up play in those areas then feed after. Hang out, reassure, love in those areas. Keep an eye on any body language/confidence issues. I am interested in hearing about the catnip toy. Maybe we should think about no catnip and see.


Update:
I haven’t noticed any different issues.

Pattern in the last two weeks has been living room couch and chairs.
I did buy , on a friend’s recommendation, some Comfort Zone Spray and Scratch Control calming spray; not sure if it made any difference. There were several days when I thought we had zero marking... but I think it just didn’t occur in the living room.

I found several “old” places today on the couch in the sun porch (old= only very slightly damp, so not today). Two spots were previously marked, I thought months ago, and thoroughly cleaned, I thought, and two additional spots. Plus two throw pillows, which I just threw out. Very frustrating since I thought no one had marked in this area in months.

Three new places have also been added to the list- the floor near the chairs in the living room (nowhere near the windows, kind of a high traffics area), a plastic wicker basket in the living room near the aforementioned floor spot, and the top of a tower of bins in a bedroom. That one was most disturbing; i was sitting next to the bed (the bins are also next to the bed- gives the cats another place to lounge), and Poppy went into the adjacent bathroom, where there are two boxes. I thought, “great”, until she hopped up on the bed and started sniffing around (this is her “tell” when she’s about to pee). I tried to distract her, talking, whistling (she seems to relax when I whistle, will even come running ), but she turned and sprayed the top of the bins. It almost seems like she’s in a trance when she does it- clapping, calling her name, whistling- nothing distracts her. No one else was around. I looked to see if the litter was dirty, as I had cleaned it earlier that day; one box had several poops, which could have been hers, the other was not bad... so now I clean the boxes twice a day. I don’t know if that was the issue or not, but there were no incidents prior to blame, either.

I did not add any new litter boxes in the living room earlier this month, as I couldn’t decide the best places. It is a high- traffic area that is basically a pass - through to every other part of the house. I’ve always read to put a box in a somewhat private, protected area, but I think I have to make an exception here. Corner by windows ? I will put one there today and see if I can figure out an additional spot.
I should add that there are multiple high and low routes through the living room , so nobody is “trapped” at any point.

Rubysmama mentioned Pandora syndrome earlier. Out of curiosity and desperation, I did some reading on that. I found some research from Ohio State using their MEMO method of treating the cat’s environment. I am trying to work through their home checklist , adding letter boxes, more food and water stations, maybe more perches... I also found a journal article detailing the AAFP / ISFM guidelines for diagnosing and treating house soiling problems. I am trying to make sure I have the five pillars of a healthy feline environment. I thought I had all this covered, but apparently something is lacking.
I was interested to read that “boredom is stressful “. While they have toys and each other to amuse themselves, could this be understimulation?
(I’m grasping for straws here, but the AAFP article mentioned that ).

I will keep you posted. I keep praying that there is some way to figure this out. Thanks again for your help and for listening to my tale / tail

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thanks for checking in. Unfortunately, things are about the same, maybe a little worse.
I will answer last time’s questions first...


" I don’t exactly remember, probably since it went smoothly- certainly nothing like when Poppy met Rudy and Frankie. I don’t remember any issues other than the marking." - Ok. When did the marking start? (I am sorry, I think you mentioned it but I can't remember sadly). Did it start right away then continue? Or during the intro process or after?
The marking started after Poppy’s vet checkup 7/2020. In looking back at the “marking calendar”, it was sporadic then (after intro of 2 youngest cats ) and has steadily increased to daily occurrences. Ironically, this year+ of marking has been far worse than the couple of occurrences for which I initially sought advice when Rudy was still alive...

"There are no feral cats that I know of in the neighborhood." - Ok. DO you have a blacklight? If so, can you take a look outside and see if there is any marking from other cats?
I looked around the exterior doors and the windows that open near ground level ; I did not see anything. Granted, I was using a black light flashlight and not a huge beacon, but I didn’t see any signs of marking from neighborhood cats. It has rained/ stormed in the past few days, so that could have erased signs.


" Lots of other wildlife (birds, chipmunks, occasionally a skunk, groundhogs)." - Any coyotes?
No coyotes that I’ve heard about.

" I have seen neighborhood cats wander through the yard, but they generally don’t go close to the house; if they do, they don’t linger. " - Ok. Have you ever seen any of the cats see them and respond? Any response from them that is abnormal?
No unusual responses; one of the cats (Frankie)will make some weird meowing noises if another cat comes up to a window or door, but no one attacks the windows or does anything strange.

"The places in the LR that are recent targets, and, in checking my “marking diary”, even the other past targets, are not vantage points from which to look outdoors."
" The chairs in the LR are 6-10 feet from the windows," - ANy other soft surfaces between the chairs and the windows?
" and the sofa is closer to the window but has a sofa table in between it and the window." - Ok, so it is pretty close to that window. What does that window look out to?
" The windows are floor to ceiling." - Interesting. Ok. That means they can really see a cat on the ground IF that cat comes up to the window. So if one of the indoor cats is on the table behind the sofa they could probably look down to the ground very near the window.

I did not describe the layout very well. The living room windows are always covered by both sheer and heavier curtains (I am kind of a freak about privacy). The cats have perches/ huts that sit between the windows and sheers , and they can sit on the floor between the sheers and the windows, but they cannot see out the windows from either the sofa or any of the chairs in the living room.

" but Poppy usually comes to bed with me or soon after." - Ok. Where are the new cats during that time? And I am a bit confused, how many cats total are there? Poppy, the 2 new kittens and ............
There are 6 cats-
Frankie arrived June 2019, around 1 year old then
Poppy arrived four days later, around 1 year old then
Lulu and Maisie , dob 7/11/19, arrived October 2019
Georgia and Paulina, dob 3/25/20, arrived August 2020
Usually Poppy and Frankie come to bed right away; depending on the weather (hot or cold), some of the other cats usually also end up on the bed as well. Where do they sleep otherwise? Not sure, although I have a feeling it could be the sofa and chairs in the living room and the couch in the porch...

" Do you do any volunteer work with other animals? Or anyone else in the house? Is it possible scent from other animals are coming in with anyone's clothes?
No, no contact with any other animals.
I am the only human in the house (insert crazy cat lady joke here).


"All the girls like to sit by the doors and windows if open (screened). No issues if 3-4 are there together." - Hmmmmmm, it sure doesn't seem like it is any of the indoor cats causing it at this point. :/
Yes...and that makes this all the more frustrating...

"Perhaps once or twice there was marking by the porch door in the past 13 months, " - On the inside? Or the outside.
Inside- glass door- was last fall, so 11 months ago

"probably due to a visit from a neighborhood cat when the door was closed, but absolutely not habitual." - Interesting. I have a feeling there may be more visits than you think. DO you have a motion activated camera to capture any movement?
No, but I have been looking for ones I could use on the interior...

"I don’t think this has anything to do with Rudy." - Ok. Grieving can remain for a long while. It can be traumatic and more sometimes then we realize. :/ BUT whether it is or isn't we would do the same thing to help.
Again, not sure, but I’ll try anything at this point.

"(That’s why I feel like I pushed the envelope too far- the dynamic was good with four- but live and learn)" - But it sound like they get along (except for the marking). I wonder if it isn't always Poppy. If you have a camera can you set it up and see if we can catch anyone?
Again, I’m searching for a camera now. I’d like to find one that doesn’t rely on WiFi and isn’t exorbitantly expensive...

"No, none of the cats shows any tail down, excessive caution, or avoids specific areas. All of them act like they own the place (they do)! There are no clear alphas- they really just interact pretty peacefully. " - Hmmmmmmmm, that is great BUT sure doesn't make the cause of the marking obvious.
Agreed. The only thing I’ve noticed right before Poppy sprays is that she sniffs and sniffs the area...which makes me think she’s either repeating her marks (yes) and /or covering someone else’s marks (urine or otherwise). She also “taps” areas that have been soiled, but since that is often what alerts me to an area, it’s always after the fact, so I don’t know if she’s done it or someone else.

" Georgia, the smallest of them all, can be a little pesky ( imagine a little sister wanting to do what her big siblings are doing- that’s how I’d describe Georgia) " - Yes but that usually doesn't cause issues. BUT I just wonder if she might be marking...............
I have never caught her doing so, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t.

"(and she’s the only calico- go figure)," - Hahahahahaha!!! Calicosrspecial!!!!

" but nobody seems bothered by her ." - Great
I should mention that Georgia thinks she is bigger than she is- she will give the others a swat and will even give the occasional hiss- but this appears well within normal cat behavior, and , as I said before-
" If a cat could roll its eyes, they would at her- the rest of the cats just go about their business."

Last night Georgia and Frankie were already on the bed when I went to bed, the Poppy hopped up a few minutes later. Absolutely no issues.

" They eat together (2feeding stations in two different rooms), hang out separately and apart, often sleep on the same bed- nothing abnormal except the persistent marking." - It just doesn't seem like it is between the indoor cats. :/

"Ironic you mention play in the affected area- on Sunday I was in the living room straightening the many furniture covers, which I’d just laundered, and noticed Poppy licking an old catnip toy- she seemed happy enough- until she hopped on one of the chairs and sprayed the cover and adjacent side table." - How old of a toy? Is it possible Rudy played with that toy or toys like that?
Possible, as some toys get lost and then resurface. This one is one anyone could have licked at one point. Easily over a year old.

"Ugh... none of the other cats were anywhere around. She immediately hopped to another perch and did her comfy sprawl...a real head shaker for sure." - And there was nothing outside? No noises, animals etc?
Nope. Couldn’t even see outside from there, and she hadn’t been by the windows.

" I made this choice, and I have to deal with the consequences, good and bad; " - We will do everything we can to solve this.
I hope so. I feel very overwhelmed at this point. It is not easy getting out of bed knowing there will probably be some soiling, finding it, and then cleaning it. Not the best way to start the day, not the best way to unwind upon returning home, either.

"it’s just a lot to deal with every day when there are no obvious signs of how I could help make whomever is marking ." - Yes

" I’m not sure what to do to make their lives less stressful;" - I think we should think about outside deterrents if possible. Maybe those automated sprinklers that are motion activated, or the air blowers or ultrasonic devices.
I do have motion-activated security lights in the front and back.

" they seem like they have it pretty good!" - Sounds like they have it great!!!
Not sure about that; clearly, someone isn’t thrilled. See below...

"Thanks in advance for your continued advice; hopefully we can figure it out. " - You are welcome. I hope so. Usually it is fairly obvious. Lack of confidence shows, bad relationships, stressed humans, etc. Outside animals are often the cause though.

So think about outside deterrents. Also, step up play in those areas then feed after. Hang out, reassure, love in those areas. Keep an eye on any body language/confidence issues. I am interested in hearing about the catnip toy. Maybe we should think about no catnip and see.


Update:
I haven’t noticed any different issues.

Pattern in the last two weeks has been living room couch and chairs.
I did buy , on a friend’s recommendation, some Comfort Zone Spray and Scratch Control calming spray; not sure if it made any difference. There were several days when I thought we had zero marking... but I think it just didn’t occur in the living room.

I found several “old” places today on the couch in the sun porch (old= only very slightly damp, so not today). Two spots were previously marked, I thought months ago, and thoroughly cleaned, I thought, and two additional spots. Plus two throw pillows, which I just threw out. Very frustrating since I thought no one had marked in this area in months.

Three new places have also been added to the list- the floor near the chairs in the living room (nowhere near the windows, kind of a high traffics area), a plastic wicker basket in the living room near the aforementioned floor spot, and the top of a tower of bins in a bedroom. That one was most disturbing; i was sitting next to the bed (the bins are also next to the bed- gives the cats another place to lounge), and Poppy went into the adjacent bathroom, where there are two boxes. I thought, “great”, until she hopped up on the bed and started sniffing around (this is her “tell” when she’s about to pee). I tried to distract her, talking, whistling (she seems to relax when I whistle, will even come running ), but she turned and sprayed the top of the bins. It almost seems like she’s in a trance when she does it- clapping, calling her name, whistling- nothing distracts her. No one else was around. I looked to see if the litter was dirty, as I had cleaned it earlier that day; one box had several poops, which could have been hers, the other was not bad... so now I clean the boxes twice a day. I don’t know if that was the issue or not, but there were no incidents prior to blame, either.

I did not add any new litter boxes in the living room earlier this month, as I couldn’t decide the best places. It is a high- traffic area that is basically a pass - through to every other part of the house. I’ve always read to put a box in a somewhat private, protected area, but I think I have to make an exception here. Corner by windows ? I will put one there today and see if I can figure out an additional spot.
I should add that there are multiple high and low routes through the living room , so nobody is “trapped” at any point.

Rubysmama mentioned Pandora syndrome earlier. Out of curiosity and desperation, I did some reading on that. I found some research from Ohio State using their MEMO method of treating the cat’s environment. I am trying to work through their home checklist , adding letter boxes, more food and water stations, maybe more perches... I also found a journal article detailing the AAFP / ISFM guidelines for diagnosing and treating house soiling problems. I am trying to make sure I have the five pillars of a healthy feline environment. I thought I had all this covered, but apparently something is lacking.
I was interested to read that “boredom is stressful “. While they have toys and each other to amuse themselves, could this be understimulation?
(I’m grasping for straws here, but the AAFP article mentioned that ).

I will keep you posted. I keep praying that there is some way to figure this out. Thanks again for your help and for listening to my tale / tail

"Thanks for checking in. Unfortunately, things are about the same, maybe a little worse." - You are welcome. Ok, same or maybe even worse.

"The marking started after Poppy’s vet checkup 7/2020." - Ok, so that maybe is the key. Maybe taking out of the home caused insecurity, maybe vet scents caused uncertainty.

" In looking back at the “marking calendar”, it was sporadic then (after intro of 2 youngest cats ) and has steadily increased to daily occurrences." - Ok

" Ironically, this year+ of marking has been far worse than the couple of occurrences for which I initially sought advice when Rudy was still alive..." - Ok. :/ More cats means more chances of issues.

" I looked around the exterior doors and the windows that open near ground level ; I did not see anything. Granted, I was using a black light flashlight and not a huge beacon, but I didn’t see any signs of marking from neighborhood cats. It has rained/ stormed in the past few days, so that could have erased signs." - Ok. Keep checking but it doesn't sound like that is it.

"No coyotes that I’ve heard about." - Ok, that is good overall.

"No unusual responses; one of the cats (Frankie)will make some weird meowing noises if another cat comes up to a window or door, but no one attacks the windows or does anything strange." - Ok. Interesting they do come up to the window or door. :/

"I did not describe the layout very well. The living room windows are always covered by both sheer and heavier curtains (I am kind of a freak about privacy). The cats have perches/ huts that sit between the windows and sheers , and they can sit on the floor between the sheers and the windows, but they cannot see out the windows from either the sofa or any of the chairs in the living room." - Ok. They still can see out. They might retreat to a "safe" meaning non visual area and mark as their own. :/

"There are 6 cats-
Frankie arrived June 2019, around 1 year old then
Poppy arrived four days later, around 1 year old then
Lulu and Maisie , dob 7/11/19, arrived October 2019
Georgia and Paulina, dob 3/25/20, arrived August 2020

Ok. Rudy passed away 2/20. So Frankie, Poppy, Lulu and Maisie knew Rudy.

"Usually Poppy and Frankie come to bed right away; depending on the weather (hot or cold), some of the other cats usually also end up on the bed as well. Where do they sleep otherwise? Not sure, although I have a feeling it could be the sofa and chairs in the living room and the couch in the porch... " - Ok. Do Poppy and Frankie spend the whole night or I am guessing they roam a bit. Any tussles around those chairs and couches?

"No, no contact with any other animals." - Ok, not that.

"I am the only human in the house (insert crazy cat lady joke here). " - Ok but insert Wonderful Person instead. Any workers, etc coming in or working near the house? Loud noises?

""All the girls like to sit by the doors and windows if open (screened). No issues if 3-4 are there together." - Hmmmmmm, it sure doesn't seem like it is any of the indoor cats causing it at this point. :/
Yes...and that makes this all the more frustrating... " - Yes, is there a chance one or two of them never is there with others? Or any issues at all between them? Really observe closely. Any little signs, etc.

""Perhaps once or twice there was marking by the porch door in the past 13 months, " - On the inside? Or the outside.
Inside- glass door- was last fall, so 11 months ago " - Ok. But that is a territorial response to tell something to stay out. It may ave just shifted more interior. Hmmmmmmm

"No, but I have been looking for ones I could use on the interior..." - Ok, good on the interior use of a camera. I think it may be helpful. I wonder if more than one is marking. :/

"Agreed. The only thing I’ve noticed right before Poppy sprays is that she sniffs and sniffs the area...which makes me think she’s either repeating her marks (yes) and /or covering someone else’s marks (urine or otherwise). She also “taps” areas that have been soiled, but since that is often what alerts me to an area, it’s always after the fact, so I don’t know if she’s done it or someone else." - Interesting. I suspect it is someone else as well and she may be responding. No one is showing overt signs BUT I still wonder about something outside.........................

"I should mention that Georgia thinks she is bigger than she is- she will give the others a swat and will even give the occasional hiss- but this appears well within normal cat behavior, and , " - Ok but since we are grasping maybe it is a sign of some insecurity. Can you step up play with her and see if it might help a touch?

"as I said before-
" If a cat could roll its eyes, they would at her- the rest of the cats just go about their business." " - THAT is good. Again tells us it is probably not the other cats per se. So maybe something outside or something specific to Georgia's confidence.

"Last night Georgia and Frankie were already on the bed when I went to bed, the Poppy hopped up a few minutes later. Absolutely no issues." - Wow. That is great in general BUT not helpful in trying to solve the marking issue!!!

""Ugh... none of the other cats were anywhere around. She immediately hopped to another perch and did her comfy sprawl...a real head shaker for sure." - And there was nothing outside? No noises, animals etc?
Nope. Couldn’t even see outside from there, and she hadn’t been by the windows." - Ok. SO there must have been a scent there already I suspect. :/

"I hope so. I feel very overwhelmed at this point. It is not easy getting out of bed knowing there will probably be some soiling, finding it, and then cleaning it. Not the best way to start the day, not the best way to unwind upon returning home, either." - I feel so much for you. It is overwhelming. I am going to try to think of everything/something that will solve it. I really believe play is going to be very important. I do think there is probably something outside. The vet visit seems important (either for Poppy or for the scent that might have gotten on her).

"I do have motion-activated security lights in the front and back." - The light will not do it. It has to be sound (ultrasonic deterrents), wind (air blowers by the doors and windows, and/or automatic motion activated sprinklers. :/

"Update:
I haven’t noticed any different issues. " - Ok

"Pattern in the last two weeks has been living room couch and chairs." - That was the same as before, correct?

"I did buy , on a friend’s recommendation, some Comfort Zone Spray and Scratch Control calming spray; not sure if it made any difference. There were several days when I thought we had zero marking... but I think it just didn’t occur in the living room." - Well, I personally am not big believers in those. I am all about confidence led by Play then feeding after, giving them places to go high, a lot of places to get their scent on (bedding, trees, scratching posts, etc) and a lot of love. Someone is exhibiting a lack of territorial security so the more confidence they have and the more ownership they feel it should resolve the issue and they can handle anything.

"I found several “old” places today on the couch in the sun porch (old= only very slightly damp, so not today). Two spots were previously marked, I thought months ago, and thoroughly cleaned, I thought, and two additional spots. Plus two throw pillows, which I just threw out. Very frustrating since I thought no one had marked in this area in months." - Yes, they can go unnoticed very easily.

What goes on in the sunroom? Does any avoid? Act differently? Etc. I am guessing there are a lot of windows which again points to something outside. It just doesn't seem like anything between the cats.

"Three new places have also been added to the list- the floor near the chairs in the living room (nowhere near the windows, kind of a high traffics area)," - Ok. makes sense.

" a plastic wicker basket in the living room near the aforementioned floor spot," - Ok, makes sense.

"and the top of a tower of bins in a bedroom. That one was most disturbing; i was sitting next to the bed (the bins are also next to the bed- gives the cats another place to lounge), and Poppy went into the adjacent bathroom, where there are two boxes. I thought, “great”, until she hopped up on the bed and started sniffing around (this is her “tell” when she’s about to pee). I tried to distract her, talking, whistling (she seems to relax when I whistle, will even come running ), but she turned and sprayed the top of the bins." - Hmmmmmmm. Is there anyone that Poppy seems more cautious about? Just the slightest?

"It almost seems like she’s in a trance when she does it- clapping, calling her name, whistling- nothing distracts her." - Yes, that can happen. She is really focused on claiming that or relieving stress (which I am not sure where it would be coming from).

" No one else was around." - Yes, it was a scent issue I imagine.

" I looked to see if the litter was dirty, as I had cleaned it earlier that day; one box had several poops, which could have been hers, the other was not bad... so now I clean the boxes twice a day. I don’t know if that was the issue or not, but there were no incidents prior to blame, either." - Maybe. :/

"I did not add any new litter boxes in the living room earlier this month, as I couldn’t decide the best places. It is a high- traffic area that is basically a pass - through to every other part of the house." - OK

" I’ve always read to put a box in a somewhat private, protected area," - Ideally, yes BUT sometimes we have to go where the pee is. :/ Willie Sutton said he robs banks because that is where the money is. Same with marking. :/

" but I think I have to make an exception here. Corner by windows ? I will put one there today and see if I can figure out an additional spot." - GREAT idea. Anything to give an option instead of hard to clean things. The more in strategic, "ownership" places could and hopefully will at least give an option and HOPEFULLY they use it.

"I should add that there are multiple high and low routes through the living room , so nobody is “trapped” at any point." - Great

"Rubysmama mentioned Pandora syndrome earlier. Out of curiosity and desperation, I did some reading on that. I found some research from Ohio State using their MEMO method of treating the cat’s environment. I am trying to work through their home checklist" - Ok, I am not familiar with it. I need to look into it.

" , adding letter boxes, more food and water stations, maybe more perches... " - Yes. Litter boxes are really important as it gives them "ownership" of territory. Food and water gives confidence as do perches. Height.

"I also found a journal article detailing the AAFP / ISFM guidelines for diagnosing and treating house soiling problems. I am trying to make sure I have the five pillars of a healthy feline environment. I thought I had all this covered, but apparently something is lacking.
I was interested to read that “boredom is stressful “. While they have toys and each other to amuse themselves, could this be understimulation?
(I’m grasping for straws here, but the AAFP article mentioned that )." - Could be. Play is really important. Builds confidence, drains energy, etc. After play feed treats or a meal.

"I will keep you posted. " - Please do.

"I keep praying that there is some way to figure this out." - Agreed. I would like to try the above and if all fails we may want to try mood stabilizers. I am not a big fan of meds BUT sometimes there is something chemical going on. :/

"Thanks again for your help and for listening to my tale / tail " - You are welcome. We will figure it out. It is not easy that is for sure but with all of the above (stepped up play), more litter boxes, outside deterrents, cameras to see who exactly is/are the one(s), etc some of those should work. And if they don't we'll have to consider mood stabilizers. Someone is feeling insecure and I think it might be fairly rational (cats outside) BUT it may be irrational. :/

Please post anytime and let's solve this. Hang in there. You really are awesome!!!