Help/ Female Adoptees Spraying

[MichMare]

Any advice would be appreciated. I adopted three unrelated spayed female cats about 8 weeks ago and am now having problems with two of them spraying/ marking territory. Two of the girls are the culprits, as I have witnessed them spraying in past two days. The other cat is mellow and gets along with everyone (fingers crossed). Poppy was feral for some time and spent her first six weeks here in her own guest bedroom, as suggested by the rescue organization. In the past two weeks, she has spent more and more time outside her room with the other two cats (they have the run of the house). I introduced her very gradually, as suggested, but in the last two weeks she has been very eager to explore/begging to leave her room, so that is when I started letting her roam with supervision. Poppy and Rudy, the larger of the other two cats, hiss and pounce on each other, but, once separated, settle down immediately and are completely unperturbed. However, I caught Rudy spraying yesterday in an area that Poppy doesn’t frequent, and today I saw Poppy spraying on a box directly next to her litter box in her room. I suspect that Rudy may have sprayed there first, but I don’t know for certain.
Any advice on ceasing this spraying and/or extending this introduction would be appreciated. All the cats are between 9& 18 months, all are spayed, all are friendly and well-behaved on their own...Poppy was the only one who had an extended introduction. Thank you in advance! I never had these issues with my old girls (RIP).

 

[rubysmama]

Hello and welcome to TCS. Sorry, though, for the circumstances that's brought you here.

Usually when there's litter box issues, we ask if the cat has been to the vet to check for a UTI. Even though it may be territorial spraying, stress can bring on a UTI, so a vet visit, might be a good idea.

TCS has some articles with more info that may be helpful. Here are the links:

How To Solve Litterbox Problems In Cats: The Ultimate Guide
Litterbox Problems? Here's Why You Should Call Your Vet | TheCatSite
Inappropriate Peeing, Spraying, Toy Obsession And Leg And Hand Nipping | TheCatSite
Spraying: When Your Cat Uses Urine To Mark Territory | TheCatSite

Combat Cat Urine | TheCatSite
How To Remove Cat Urine | TheCatSite
How To Remove Cat Urine Odor From Your Home | TheCatSite

How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction | TheCatSite

 

[calicosrspecial]

I am sorry to hear about this.

Make sure you use an ezymatic cleaner to clean the area in order to remove the scent. [URL="https://thecatsite.com/ams/how-to-remove-cat-urine.29728/"]How To Remove Cat Urine[/URL]

It is very good that after their fight they separated and calmed down quickly. Was there any blood or fur in that encounter? Also, did they ever mark or go outside of their litter box before that "fight"?

The good news is, a cat's instinct is to cover their scent. So we have instinct on our side.

Cats go outside of the litter box for 2 reasons - Medical (Pain, UTI, etc) and Behavioral (territorial insecurity, stress, etc).

As rubysmama suggests it is always best to rule out medical so a vet visit is always a great idea.

When a cat is going outside of the box they are screaming out "this is mine" typically. "Stay away" and/or "leave me alone".

I suspect that the introduction was too rushed and that we are seeing insecurity because of that. They haven't built up the trust between them. Cats are territorial creatures so in order to feel secure they must own it. And the more confident a cat is the more likely they will accept other cats (not attack them) or be attacked.

The goal of the intro process is to make positive associations so that when they meet they think "Hey, I know that cat, that cat is cool. They wont hurt me, they wont take my food, etc". Then when they think that they don't need to protect themselves and their territory.

Intros can take a month to over a year. It really depends. Most people rush the intros and some negativity starts and it can feed on itself. So we really try to condition them to make position associations (using with food) via scent at first, then sight and try to make every encounter as positive as possible while limiting any negative encounters. During this time we also build confidence using Play, Food, Height and Love which I will describe in a little bit.

It sounds like Rudy and Poppy have not yet been able to build that trust yet. So I would really like them to be totally separated and begin the introduction process.

So I would really like Poppy to be limited to her room only. I know she will want to explore but we need to stabilize her and build her confidence. I would keep the door closed for now. It is best to not have any visual contact and if a buffer area by the door is possible (so they can't get their paws under the door) that would be good. Then I would like you to build her confidence. Does Poppy play? If so, step up play with her, really good play sessions and then feed a meal or treats after play. This replicates the Hunt, Capture, Kill, Eat instincts of cats and builds confidence as it is survival. Does she have a cat tree in her room? Height gives a cat confidence so having a cat tree to help her get high in the world is good. Also, adding a scratching post where she can get her scent on and "own" more territory can be helpful. Also really comfy bedding. Again to get her scent on things to "own" more territory. Finally, love. Love can mean a number of things. Sitting with Poppy and talking lovingly to her is good (usually try to be on her level on the floor). Use food and treats to just build that bond. Food is the best way to build trust in cats in my opinion. It is amazing how food can make ferals in the wild trust more. If you ever have warm chicken meat (no skin or spices or seasonings) that is a wonderful way to make a cat happy. Give eye kisses (close your eyes slowly, hold them closed, and slowly reopen them). That shows the cat you trust them. If they respond that is a great sign (it doesn't always happen immediately and can take time).

Cats take on our emotions so being as calm and confident as possible can help them be more confident, reduce their stress, and make them more content and trusting. I know it can be very hard but our emotions are very important. I deal with ferals all the time and see the impact of emotions on those cats. But the more confident and calm we are the more they become and it can become a positive positive feedback loop (positive builds on positive).

We also want to build Rudy's confidence using Play, Food, Height and Love. Same thing as with Poppy (just is his territory).

Then when we eliminate the peeing we'll start the intro process again. But we need to stabilize the cats first before we move forward.

I get a sense that this is just a territorial insecurity and stress/distrust of the other cat. It is very common. So we'll want to build their confidence (as confident cats are more likely to accept other cats and be accepted) and make positive associations and eventually positive encounters.

Don't worry, this is something we deal with often and it is solvable with the proper knowledge and desire.

We will help you through this. Please ask any questions anytime and for any clarification as sometimes things can be a bit opaque. But I am highly optimistic we can solve this.

 

[MichMare]

Thanks for responding and for your advice. Let me try to answer your questions- apologies if this gets a little disjointed and lengthy.
I cleaned both areas that were sprayed by one/ both with an enzyme cleaner and discarded or laundered anything affected.
I wouldn’t say that the two cats had a fight, per se. Their very close interactions always involve growling (if one catches a glimpse of the other). This can result in one turning around and going elsewhere, or it can result in one “stalking” the other to hiss and perhaps pounce, much like play...but neither has figured out the play part (or it’s just a little too rough). There has been no marking that I know of prior to this week, but this is the first week that they have been together for longer than a couple of hours unsupervised. Never any blood or fur flying that I have witnessed.
I should back up and explain a little. They all arrived the same week in June. Rudy and Frankie adjusted very quickly to each other and have had the run of the house since day one. I picked up Poppy about four days after the other two and, based on the recommendation of the rescue organization, kept her separated. She stayed in a bathroom for two days, then I moved her to her current “guest suite”, where she has her own food, water, litter, scratchers, perch in the window, several makeshift towers to climb on, and plenty of places to use as a bed (not sure where she actually sleeps- I sleep in another bedroom, and Rudy almost always sleeps on my bed). I kept Poppy completely isolated for about two weeks (the crack under the door is too small to allow paws) and then started sitting in the room with her with the door cracked an inch or two so she could see and smell and touch paws with the other two if they chose to stop by. This went fairly well- just the general hissing etc that you would expect. She would lie behind the door with it cracked with either of the others lying on the other side with no problems. After a couple of weeks of these brief, but fairly uneventful, interactions, she really wanted to come out - so I let her. I believe her first journeys around the house were about a month ago. Most lasted just a few minutes and consisted of Poppy walking through the house growling and the other cats getting out of her way! I have discovered that Poppy growls in general when she’s nervous or in a strange place, which is likely confusing for the other two. Anyway, we progressively worked up the time she was out and about. It varied from just a few minutes at first to an hour at a time. The interactions during the longer periods ranged from nothing/ the other girls ignoring her to Poppy ending up under a bed or couch growling and batting someone with her paw, at which time I’d pick her up and take her back to her guest room (door closed). She always settles very quickly after any “negative” interactions.
Since things seemed to be going okay, all things considered, I have left all three of them unsupervised with the run of the house several times in the past two weeks. I did this based on what I’d read online and talking to Poppy’s rescue foster. The first few days I would check on them every 30-60 minutes, then at longer intervals. Most times, everyone just found her own space and was happy. THere was still some fussing if someone invaded someone else’s space, but I would expect that. The last week I extended their time together to when I was at work, which ranged from 4- 10 hours. I see now that this may have been too soon, but I did not see any behavior that I would not expect from cats in this situation. When I come home, each cat would come to the door (not by the same route) to greet me. I should add here that Poppy still has her separate food, water, and litter in her room, but the door is propped open, so she (and unfortunately, everyone else) can get in and out. Rudy and Frankie have their food and water in a separate room and have 4 other litter boxes in various parts of the house. They all eat the same foods.
So, they have definitely been introduced, at what I thought was an appropriate speed....now that I’m writing all this, perhaps the issue lies in that now Poppy’s room is no longer her personal domain (except at night- tried that once, and it was fine until 4am,when the chasing ensued- now her door is closed at night). If Pops is in her room and someone, usually Rudy, decides to investigate/eat leftovers, she will generally hop on her window perch , and she feels safe there. Rudy usually gives up at that point and leaves. The problem occurs when their travels cross paths or when someone decides to pester the other. I should say again that life is peaceful for all involved as long as nobody invades anyone’s personal bubble; after any “negative” interactions, both Rudy and Poppy are just fine (perhaps, like real siblings, just glad to be away from another).

So, perhaps I was too optimistic in the timeline that I thought I was following based on their behavior. What now? I can deal with and expect squabbles, but the spraying will really be a test if it continues. I don’t think it’s a medical issue, as I’ve not seen either cat exhibit any other symptoms I’d associate with urinary issues (my old girls both had kidney disease, so I’ve seen a lot of those issues). Poppy is in her room at the moment, as I’m at work, and she hadn’t finished her morning can of food when I left (if I had left her door open, Rudy would have been finishing that food immediately, despite having eaten her own breakfast already), and I know that she will be scratching and banging on the door the minute I walk in to get out...

Thanks in advance for reading this overly long post and for your help.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thanks for responding and for your advice. Let me try to answer your questions- apologies if this gets a little disjointed and lengthy.
I cleaned both areas that were sprayed by one/ both with an enzyme cleaner and discarded or laundered anything affected.
I wouldn’t say that the two cats had a fight, per se. Their very close interactions always involve growling (if one catches a glimpse of the other). This can result in one turning around and going elsewhere, or it can result in one “stalking” the other to hiss and perhaps pounce, much like play...but neither has figured out the play part (or it’s just a little too rough). There has been no marking that I know of prior to this week, but this is the first week that they have been together for longer than a couple of hours unsupervised. Never any blood or fur flying that I have witnessed.
I should back up and explain a little. They all arrived the same week in June. Rudy and Frankie adjusted very quickly to each other and have had the run of the house since day one. I picked up Poppy about four days after the other two and, based on the recommendation of the rescue organization, kept her separated. She stayed in a bathroom for two days, then I moved her to her current “guest suite”, where she has her own food, water, litter, scratchers, perch in the window, several makeshift towers to climb on, and plenty of places to use as a bed (not sure where she actually sleeps- I sleep in another bedroom, and Rudy almost always sleeps on my bed). I kept Poppy completely isolated for about two weeks (the crack under the door is too small to allow paws) and then started sitting in the room with her with the door cracked an inch or two so she could see and smell and touch paws with the other two if they chose to stop by. This went fairly well- just the general hissing etc that you would expect. She would lie behind the door with it cracked with either of the others lying on the other side with no problems. After a couple of weeks of these brief, but fairly uneventful, interactions, she really wanted to come out - so I let her. I believe her first journeys around the house were about a month ago. Most lasted just a few minutes and consisted of Poppy walking through the house growling and the other cats getting out of her way! I have discovered that Poppy growls in general when she’s nervous or in a strange place, which is likely confusing for the other two. Anyway, we progressively worked up the time she was out and about. It varied from just a few minutes at first to an hour at a time. The interactions during the longer periods ranged from nothing/ the other girls ignoring her to Poppy ending up under a bed or couch growling and batting someone with her paw, at which time I’d pick her up and take her back to her guest room (door closed). She always settles very quickly after any “negative” interactions.
Since things seemed to be going okay, all things considered, I have left all three of them unsupervised with the run of the house several times in the past two weeks. I did this based on what I’d read online and talking to Poppy’s rescue foster. The first few days I would check on them every 30-60 minutes, then at longer intervals. Most times, everyone just found her own space and was happy. THere was still some fussing if someone invaded someone else’s space, but I would expect that. The last week I extended their time together to when I was at work, which ranged from 4- 10 hours. I see now that this may have been too soon, but I did not see any behavior that I would not expect from cats in this situation. When I come home, each cat would come to the door (not by the same route) to greet me. I should add here that Poppy still has her separate food, water, and litter in her room, but the door is propped open, so she (and unfortunately, everyone else) can get in and out. Rudy and Frankie have their food and water in a separate room and have 4 other litter boxes in various parts of the house. They all eat the same foods.
So, they have definitely been introduced, at what I thought was an appropriate speed....now that I’m writing all this, perhaps the issue lies in that now Poppy’s room is no longer her personal domain (except at night- tried that once, and it was fine until 4am,when the chasing ensued- now her door is closed at night). If Pops is in her room and someone, usually Rudy, decides to investigate/eat leftovers, she will generally hop on her window perch , and she feels safe there. Rudy usually gives up at that point and leaves. The problem occurs when their travels cross paths or when someone decides to pester the other. I should say again that life is peaceful for all involved as long as nobody invades anyone’s personal bubble; after any “negative” interactions, both Rudy and Poppy are just fine (perhaps, like real siblings, just glad to be away from another).

So, perhaps I was too optimistic in the timeline that I thought I was following based on their behavior. What now? I can deal with and expect squabbles, but the spraying will really be a test if it continues. I don’t think it’s a medical issue, as I’ve not seen either cat exhibit any other symptoms I’d associate with urinary issues (my old girls both had kidney disease, so I’ve seen a lot of those issues). Poppy is in her room at the moment, as I’m at work, and she hadn’t finished her morning can of food when I left (if I had left her door open, Rudy would have been finishing that food immediately, despite having eaten her own breakfast already), and I know that she will be scratching and banging on the door the minute I walk in to get out...

Thanks in advance for reading this overly long post and for your help.

You are very welcome. No need to apologize about length etc. The more info the better.

Great job on the cleaning. Exactly correct.

Yes, it doesn't really sound like a fight. I would call it a "Negative Encounter". It is very good there was no blood or marking before. BUT the growling does make a negative association and tells me it is just a little too soon to get them together. Because the negativity can escalate and turn into more negativity. It is VERY good that at times they did turn away BUT not so good that they would stalk. Again, that can create a negative encounter and lead to less confidence, less trust etc. We really want to maximize positive encounters and minimize negative ones. We build trust between them over time.

The early intro you did was fantastic. Exactly what we want. It might have gone a little faster than I would have but it is textbook the way you did it. Typically I really want to reinforce the positives over time. So I don't want any hissing. I want them to look away from each other (break their focus on each other). Really just positive encounters. When a cat looks away and doesn't focus on the other cat there is some trust there. Which is what we want. Hissing isn't always bad (it is communication) but t can be interpreted negatively by the other cat. So in the intro process I try to not have the hissing.

Poppy has the perfect setup in her suite. WELL DONE!!

We would typically wan to do scent swapping and during that doing positive things in the other's territory. Something to make a positive association between their scent and them. It is all about making them feel comfortable with the other cat and the more they interact (via scent) and it is positive the more trust is built.

Yes, Poppy growling tells me that we have to build her confidence up a bit more and build that trust. I would like her to feel so confident that there is no need to growl. To have her be like this is mine and these are my siblings and I trust them. So confidence building and positive associations and maximizing positive encounters and minimizing negative is really the goal.

You mention the following "The interactions during the longer periods ranged from nothing/ the other girls ignoring her to Poppy ending up under a bed or couch growling and batting someone with her paw".

We like the ignoring. BUT Poppy under a bed (fear), growling (defensive), batting (defensive aggression) would be considered negative encounters and something we try to minimize at all costs. It tells me that it is too soon. That more trust needs to be built, more confidence.

Amazing you can pick her up. Just be careful. But that is a good sign in a lot of ways. The trust you have with her. BUT when a cat is feeling threatened or insecure they can do things so please be careful.

Another good sign that she settles quickly after a negative encounter. How fast a cat rebounds after a negative encounter is a good "tell" as to where they are. The faster the better.

The next part I think maybe the time spent together was just a bit too much too fast. I tend to like to take it a bit slower. Because negatives build upon each other and creep up on us humans and then a number of negative encounters finally reach an "exploding" point where we gets fights and marking etc.

I actually think you are going to be fine. There are a lot of positives in this post and really nothing too worrying. Of course, the peeing is worrying but I think we can stop that fairly soon by keeping them separated, building confidence and doing some reintroduction. Once we get the peeing/marking stopped then we'll do some feeding at the door etc. Then supervised together time distracting as need to avoid any negativity. Even if they are near each other for a minute with no negativity then it is a positive brick to build the wall of confidence. And we just build on those moments and eventually trust gets built up and they are like "that cat doesn't want to hurt me, they are cool". Ultimately, it is all about not worrying about being hurt/attacked and having access to food, water, litter box etc.

So after reading this post I am really optimistic about not only ending the marking but also getting them to live in harmony. We have some work to do and I think we should take it a little slower and I know Poppy may not like that but it is best for all of them.

Really step up play with them, build their confidence. If Poppy does get out (try not to let her out) try to get her back in her room in a positive way using food or a toy. Stay optimistic, calm and confident around them as cats take on our emotions. If you sense tension use something positive to diffuse it.

But I would try to keep them separated until we can end the marking and then we can move forward.

Thank you so much for the update. The situation is a lot better than I feared. I think there are a lot of positives here. We'll get there.

 

[MichMare]

Thanks for the advice.
Poppy is back in her guest suite full-time.

She did have an accidental encounter with Rudy yesterday, which went well. I went into the guest room to see Poppy and apparently didn’t fully close the door, and Miss Rudy came in to check if there were any leftovers. Poppy was up on one of her towers (this one is about waist level) almost directly above Rudy and the food bowls, and neither had any adverse reaction to the other. Of course, I was standing next to each and was petting Pops, but Rudy licked up whatever crumbs were in the bowl, Poppy watched, and then she picked up one of her toys in her mouth and hopped up onto her window shelf- no growling, running or fear. Rudy acted like she perhaps wanted to walk around, but I gently redirected her to the door, and she followed me out. She had no reaction to Poppy whatsoever. Small victories!

Last night I sat with Poppy in her room and played with the door cracked, but neither Rudy nor Frankie approached; they were somewhere else in the house. Poppy actually was stretched out in the threshold for a while, but again, no one was around. She did walk a few steps out but went back in on her own.

I will continue to keep them separate and will go back to doing the door cracked routine when I’m home. I will try to post short daily updates ; if you could let me know when / how to proceed based on those, I’d really appreciate it. Thanks again for your help.

P.S. I am careful when I pick up any of the girls when they’re agitated, but I found that if I whistle (any song or melody) , it almost immediately calms Poppy down. Don’t know why or remember how I figured that out, but whatever. Again, small victories. They are all good girls.

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are welcome.

An encounter with no negativity!! FANTASTIC!!! I am really proud of Poppy. That was "her" territory being "invaded", her food being eaten and she accepts it!!! AND she let's you pet her (positive association). Though I do want you to be careful as there could be redirected aggression. But your emotions must have been really good, calm and confident, to really diffuse a potential situation. GREAT!!! And then you redirected Rudy out. TEXTBOOK PERFECTION!! REALLY well done!! I can't say enough.

This experience and what you have written in the past tell me it is not IF they will get along but WHEN.

Last night - That is really good. I still would like to take a bit slower but it achieved what we are looking for - confidence building AND positive encounter (nothing negative which is positive).

So going forward I would keep the door closed for about a week and just keep up the play. Try to feed them near the closed door a few feet apart moving it closer (as long as it is a positive situation, no negativity). Basically just a re-introduction. Just to build up that trust and confidence and make those positive associations and make sure that any spraying is stopped.

Really our goal is to keep every interaction (however long or short, scent for now and eventually visual) as positive as possible limiting or eliminating any negativity. And if negativity might develop, distract with food, toy, etc. Anything to try to turn a potential negative into a positive (no negativity).

It will be a fine balance. We don't want to rush things and get more negative encounters BUT we don't want to go too slowly either and lose all the success you already have achieved. So we are going to do a "hybrid" type approach over a few weeks building on small success or small victories as you correctly mention.

I am so glad you are careful. Sometimes cats will get so focused on afraid that they don't exactly know what they are doing and the human accidentally gets hurt (redirected aggression, etc). And watching our emotions during a tense, stressful situation is REALLY important. Trying to stay calm and confident so they pick up on that. If we get stressed then they tend to get more stressed (I see this with ferals in the wild all the time the impact of human emotions on the cats). It is great whistling or singing will calm Poppy down. Anything that works is great.

They all sound like GREAT cats. I deal with much more serious situations than this. I am highly, highly confident you will succeed. I am not worried at all. We'll get there.

I have to say, the Rescue that saved Poppy really did a great job with her. Kudos to them!! And of course for you for continuing her development. WELL DONE!!

Keep up the great work and feel free to post or ask anything anytime. You are doing FANTASTICALLY!!

 

[MichMare]

Just a quick update:
It’s been very difficult to keep Poppy happy with the door closed when I’m home. She taps and taps at the door, so the best compromise seems to be that I sit in her room with her with the door cracked about two inches (she can’t get out, and no one else can in) and we see who comes to visit. I know there may be some visual contact and some small physical contact, but it can be easily controlled, and I can see all parties at once. The door is closed when she eats and sleeps or when I’m not in the room with her. Anyway...
Saturday: Poppy had very limited contact with Frankie- just a very brief sniff at the door, and Frankie went in her way. The interaction with Rudy was much longer. They sat on either side of the cracked door for about 39 minutes. There were a few brief hisses and growls from Poppy, but it was very calm on both sides. Even the growling was very sedate! I petted one, then the other, same hand, just to transfer each other’s scent. No fussing at all.
Sunday: Basically the same interaction with Rudy for about 15 minutes. One hiss from Pops, no more. Both just plopped on their respective sides of the door. We had another brief visit with Frankie; she sat down facing away from the door, and a Poppy gently reached out her paw to say hello , but she couldn’t reach her, and Frankie walked away. No hissing or growling.
Today: Poppy is up on the tower that is about two feet from the door and two feet high. Frankie came in briefly ( I am sitting on the floor between the door and tower), and there was no reaction from either party. Poppy saw her but stayed relaxing on her tower, and Frankie wandered out. Rudy came next, they sat again just inches apart on either side of the door. I don’t believe there was any visual contact, but there was no hissing or growling at all. Rudy left after about 5 minutes. Now, Frankie and Rudy are both sprawled just outside the doorway, and Poppy is just behind me, eating. Boring is good!!
The other girls have walked away and are amusing themselves elsewhere. Poppy really really wants to join them, but I will play with her in her suite.
Thanks again for your comments and help. Small victories!

 

[rubysmama]

Boring is good!!

Sometimes boring can even be great. How are the litter box issues the last couple of days?

 

[calicosrspecial]

I agree with rubysmama. Boring is GREAT!!! This update is great!!

Yes, she will probably do that but we just have to continue to take our time. Stepping up play is a good idea to not only build confidence but also to drain some of that energy. After play feed treats or a meal.

Those are really good encounters. As long as it is a positive (no staring, no growling/hissing, no ears back, no tail swishing - basically no negative body language) then visual contact is very good. And if there is any of that and nothing bad happens then that is good. Again, it builds trust as what ever communication (verbal or visual) was understood and no negativity took place. And anytime we avoid negativity is is a positive confidence building moment. We would like to get to the point where there is no hissing but again it is communication and the fact there wasn't negativity means it was understood and a positive result.

Keep up those positive encounters. If you have them in visual contact watch to see if they ever take their eyes of each other or if they turn there backs on each other. Signs of more trust. And watch their body language.

Overall, I would say GREAT update. Sounds exactly what we are looking for. Keep trying to make every encounter as positive as possible. Keep building confidence. Make positive associations feeding by the door (and watching how they react) and doing what you are doing in this update (to make positive associations).

One question. Do you think Rudy and Frankie are coming to the door because you are in there? Do they go by the door as much when you are not in there?

Keep up the great work. Let's do the above for a few more days but I am assuming since you didn't mention marking/peeing that they are getting pretty stabilized. Great work!!

Feel free to post or ask anything anytime. We'll probably do a few more things in a couple of days assuming the same story in this last post. WELL DONE!!!

 

[MichMare]

Thanks for the continued help and encouragement. I will try to answer your questions before I head to work.
1) I hope I’m not hexing myself, but no, there have been no additional urine issues out of the boxes that I have seen or noticed. That said, they have not been in each other’s territory, either.
2) I think Rudy and Frankie do come by Poppy’s room more often when I am in there, a) because the door is open and they are curious ,b) they know there’s “extra” food in there, and c) they wonder what that other cat is doing in there. They do stop at the door when it’s closed if Pops is scratching or tapping at it, but they don’t linger there. They do have to pass by her door frequently, as it is next to the bathroom where their food is and on the way to one of the other bathrooms where their litter is. Poppy’s suite is pretty centrally located in the house.
3)I haven’t been feeding on either side of the door as yet, mostly because I don’t want Rudy or Frankie thinking that’s their new food spot. They aren’t really treat eaters, so I’ll just keep with the petting on either side of the door for now, I think.
4) I will watch the body language more closely . Frankie definitely just walks away ; Rudy will do a brief stare down, to which I remind her “Nice, be nice”, but she quickly plops down as soon as she realizes she’s not coming through the door for food. She is somewhat of a mooch, I’ve learned.
Thanks again; updates later.

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are very welcome. Don't worry, we will solve this.

1.) - GREAT!!! No, you are not hexing yourself. Don;t worry. Cats take on our emotions so stay calm and confident around them. Yes, we want to "stabilize" them first then with that additional confidence then move to some site swapping.

2.) - Yes, that is what I figured and a good sign. It is good they are not obsessed and/or anxious/stressed etc about Poppy and the room. It is really about making every encounter (whether by scent or sight) as positive as possible. If they are not getting stressed or upset by Poppy scratching that is a good sign. If they are try to distract in a positive way (play, treats, talking to them calmly, confidently and lovingly).

3.) - Ok, as long as you can make a positive association then it is good. I always feed on either side of the door moving the bowls closer in order to make that positive association (eating yummy food and smelling the other cats without incident) but we can do other things to make that positive association between them.

4.) - Great. Body language is really important to tell us when a negative encounter might start and then we can end it. If we can get a cat to go from staring to looking away and more relaxed that is a positive. It is really to condition them that the other cat is a positive and will not hurt them or take their food etc. So anytime we can get a positive encounter (regardless of how long) it reinforces that the other cat is "cool". It really is no different with humans in a workplace or dating or a new roommate in a dorm room. We just need to get to know them to know they are a positive and will not cause us issues.

Keep us up on what you are doing and how they are doing. Keep building confidence (Play, Food, Height and Love). Stay calm and confident around them. Make positive associations. Make every encounter as positive as possible avoiding any negative encounters. Distract as needed using voice, play, food, anything positive if you see negative body language or sense tension between them. Anytime they avoid a negative encounter it is a positive.

And feel free to ask for clarification or if you have any questions anytime. You are doing great!! Keep up the great work.

 

[MichMare]

Just wanted to post a summary of the week so far...not much has changed, really, and I guess that is a victory in itself.
Tuesday and Wednesday the cats had only a little interaction; the other cats weren’t terribly interested in visiting. Both days, Rudy did sit behind the open door (2-3” open). There were very brief hisses and growls from both, but both were very calm when lying in their own spaces.
Thursday morning, Frankie was playing with a ball on one side of the slightly open door, Poppy playing on the other side with her toy. Frankie eventually walked away and sat further down the hall out of sight. Poppy escaped briefly and, of her own accord, moved quickly toward Frankie , hissing briefly, but I quickly redirected her back into her room. I don’t remember that Frankie reacted much, if at all; she is my little peacemaker. Poppy is not hesitant or shy about leaving the room, and it’s not like she races back in fearfully; it seems mor like, “Well, if they’re going to greet me like that, then I will just go back behind the door where it’s peaceful.” Meanwhile, Rudy was just watching from about 3 feet away. Poppy again plopped down behind the still slightly open door. Frankie came back and played with her toy for about 15 minutes with Poppy relaxing on the other side of the door. Rudy and Frankie wandered off. Poppy doesn’t seem afraid to encounter the other but still hisses briefly upon seeing them. No issues at all when there is no visual contact.
Thursday pm, the only brief interaction was between Rudy and Poppy; Pops was standing in the more than slightly open doorway, I was behind her petting her and making sure she didn’t go further, and Rudy came within two feet. She hissed once, reached out a paw (like a gentle bat, but she was too far), and turned and walked the other direction. Poppy seemed to want to follow, but I kept petting her and she came back into her room.
This morning, Poppy got out very briefly ( it is very hard to go in and out of her room without her trying to escape). Frankie was sitting in the hallway with her back turned, and Rudy tried to pounce on her tail. Frankie just walked away,and I scooped up Pops. Definitely not a negative encounter- more like play.
I will keep doing the brief encounter/ opposite side of the door thing for now. I may try the treats by the door just to see what happens.
All in all, small victories, I think. Please let me know what you think and how I should proceed. Thanks again.

 

[rubysmama]

That all sounds pretty good. No real aggression, other than a hiss or paw bat.

Have any of them ever gotten into an actual "fur flying" fight? Or was the territorial spraying the only issue.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I agree with Rubysmama. I think this is REALLY positive for a number of reasons I am going to mention.

First off, no more marking. You have them stabilized which is great.

Tuesday/Wednesday - Not being interested in visiting it actually good. It shows they aren't wanting to defend/attack etc. Ideally we would like the hisses and growls to stop. That is communication (a cat telling another cat "Don't try anything" and if nothing happens it tells me that the other cat understands. BUT the fact they still feel the need to warn the other cat tells me we still have a little work to do. Nothing I am really worried about because there are no negative encounters really but I want them to trust so they don't even need to hiss or growl. Have to keep getting them to trust via positive encounters and no negative encounters.

Thursday morning - Great that Frankie and Poppy were playing by the door. And Frankie walks away. How was her body language when she walked away? Did she look relaxed, confident? Then Poppy escapes and moves quickly to Frankie BUT can be redirected. Negativity avoided. GREAT!! GREAT that Poppy listened. Great that Frnakie didn't really react. Tells me that Frankie is not that afraid of Poppy and of course Poppy didn't do anything. So it actually is a positive and a confidence builder as a negative encounter was avoided. AND amazing that Rudy just watched. Didn't attack Poppy. That is another positive. Since Rudy and Frankie are really close I could have understood if it went a different way. But it didn't, another positive. No attack etc which is a trust building moment. The fact they seemed relaxed after again tells me that they are doing well. Frankie comes back and plays for 15 minutes. Fantastic. Tells me Frankie wasn't affected and isn't afraid. Shows confidence and trust and a confident/trusting cat is less likely to attack or be attacked. GREAT. Yes, Poppy hisses because she still just doesn't totally trust. More Rudy it seems than Frankie though. So we have to keep showing them that the other really doesn't mean any danger or negativity. Trust takes time to build but so far a lot of great signs.

Thursday PM - So Rudy came up to Poppy and hissed and a slight bat/paw? Interesting. I would have thought Poppy would have "defended" (hissed/swatted) since Rudy was moving towards Poppy. This tells me that Rudy is actually needed more trust. Rudy felt the need to "tell" Poppy not to try anything. So keep building Rudy's confidence and making those positive associations and making sure there are positive encounters. And just reassure Rudy in a calm, confident and loving voice that "everything is ok". To let Rudy know it is ok. Of course the fact Poppy didn't respond negatively is VERY positive for Rudy. You reassuring Poppy with petting was very helpful in that encounter I am sure. BUT the fact Rudy turned away and walked away is GREAT. No cat that truly fears another cat would become that vulnerable and it a sign that it is no "if" they will get along but "when". Great encounter. Another confidence and trust building situation. How did Poppy want to walk after Rudy. Was it calmly or a little more aggressively? Again, GREAT that you distracted Poppy and she chose love or an encounter.

This morning - Rudy tried to pounce on Frankie's tail? Was it after Rudy saw Poppy? The fact Frankie walked away is a great sign. So it wasn't interpreted as negative by Frankie.how did Frankie walk away? Normal? Or any change? How did they act after? And it sounds like Poppy was fine in all this. So the energy level wasn't that negative. Sounds like overall a neutral encounter which again is great. No negativity = a positive.

Yes, keep up the positive encounters by the door. Reassure or distract as needed. Would love to see the hissing/growling stop. Watch their body language. If they are looking away and not totally focused that is really good.

It sounds like really the issue is Rudy and Poppy. Nothing out of the ordinary. Rudy was the existing cat with their territory being "invaded" by Poppy so there just need to be trust build so Rudy realizes Poppy it no there to threatened Rudy or make Rudy's life more difficult. Totally normal. So we just show the cat that the other cat is not a threat and is either neutral or a positive. That is what we are doing now. Using repetitive positive encounters to build that trust.

So I really take this as a positive update. A lot of really good things I hope I highlighted. So keep making positive associations, distract as needed. I would use treats to make that positive association since food is a big part of a cat's life and gives confidence and trust. Keep up play. Keep having those positive encounters but the door.

So I think you are doing great. Poppy is doing great. Rudy and Poppy need a little more trust and confidence (though it seems like Poppy is moving ahead a bit more which is great) and Frankie is doing great. Rudy's behavior is normal and why we are doing what we are doing to help Rudy trust Poppy.

Keep up the great work and feel free to ask any questions or for clarification. But you are doing great!!

The only issue we will have is I have to be away in a week for 3-4 weeks and will not have internet access. So taking it to the next level may have to be a bit delayed or I have to prep you well. Given Poppy's desire to explore/get out you may be forced into moving forward without me but you will have rubysmama to help which is great. But hopefully I am giving you the tools to deal with anything.

 

[MichMare]

No, there has never been a “fur-flying fight”, at least that I witnessed. There was the usual chasing/ pouncing that Rudy and Frankie do on occasion, but Poppy’s growling and hissing seemed to intensify the return of same from Rudy. Both seemed to be tolerating the other fairly well, again that I witnessed, until I realized that they were marking. The marking was what prompted me to seek help. I can deal with and expect some level of what I would cal. Friendly rough play, but I can’t tolerate spraying or territorial marking.
Regarding Frankie’s body language- Frankie is always pretty calm. She is everyone’s friend, or wants to be. She will bat st Rudy in play and will hold her own if they wrestle, but she is pretty much always relaxed.
A side note- I got Rudy and Frankie from the same adoption agency, but I am unsure how much actual contact they had prior to moving here. I know they were at the same foster for about two weeks, but they were crated. They did spend about four hours in the car next to one another in separate soft crates. They interact much like my previous cats who were adopted six months apart; they get along 98% of the time, but there is the occasional teasing/playing that leads to a little wrestling. That resolves as soon as one walks away. They eat side-by-side, share litter, etc.
Rudy/Poppy on Thursday pm was super brief- Poppy didn’t have much time to react, because Rudy turned immediately and walked away and I was basically holding Poppy back. I got the sense that Poppy just wanted to get out into the rest of the house rather than tussle with Rudy. Not an aggressive move from Pops, mor like an escapee move...
I misspoke about the attempted tail pounce- it was actually Poppy who tried to swat Frankie ‘s tail. Either Frances didn’t notice it or just ignored it and sauntered away.
I definitely agree that Poppy and Frankie will likely get along somewhat faster tha Poppy and RUdy. This was evident when all three were loose in the house for several days. Frankie is fairly petite and generally calm, so that helps. Rudy and Poppy are about the same size, so that doesn’t help. Rudy is a sweet girl who is generally somewhat of a couch potato, but when she decide to play, she pounces and chases- just normal 1 1/2 year old cat behavior, unless you are a formerly abandoned cat like Poppy who lived outside for a time and who seems to have trust issues.
I am not expecting them to all get along perfectly 24/7 or to become the best of friends- I just want to be able to leave them loose in the house when I am at work without injuries or bloodshed or urine marking. My last two were never overly friendly until the last two years of their lives together, but they did peacefully coexist for almost 17 years, and that’s all I would like to achieve here.
Please let me know a game plan for this week and those weeks that you’ll be gone. I appreciate all the advice and input!!

 

[rubysmama]

The no fighting is good, and I understand not being able to put up with urine marking. Has that stopped now that you're keeping them apart?

 

[calicosrspecial]

It is great they never really fought. That is a conscious decision and tells me that they don't fear for their safety for the most part (at least existentially). Which is great.

The marking was most likely territorial insecurity. There are saying "stay way, this is mine" and that is why we do the intro process etc. To build trust, territorial security, confidence, etc. As we get them to end the growling, the threatening chasing, etc then they will stop the need to scream out "help, this is mine". Going outside of the litter box is typically a cry for help. So we do these things to stabilize them and build their confidence to reassure them that everything is ok.

A cat's instinct is to cover their scent so the issue is solvable with effort and knowledge.

Frankie is the cat that seems to bridge which is very helpful. A stabilizing confidence building cat. That is great.

Frankie and Rudy sound really good. Every relationship will have its moments (think human family) but the fact they get over it quickly (on the rare occasions it happens) is a sign all is fine.I believe it is always how they act after that tells me how serious it really was.

Thursday PM - Ok. Well, if Poppy wanted to escape (act like prey) that tells me that there is some distrust there and escaping could lead to a chase and some negative encounter. So it is good you stopped that from happening (but please be careful you don't get injured in any way) but it does tell me we need to contnue to build confidence (Play, Food, Height and Love) and make sure we maximize positive encounters and minimize negative ones. We want to get to the point where Poppy is like "whatever" and just looks away - doesn't run, doesn't attack etc. We'll get there.

Tail pounce - Was Frankie's tail moving back and forth? Did it look playful or something worse? If Poppy really wanted to hurt Frankie she would have jumped on her etc. So it doesn't seem concerning really AND Frankie walked away which confirms that to me as Frankie didn't seem threatened. I actually think it turned out fairly well really.

They all sound like really good cats and normal. I have heard nothing that is really concerning and nothing out of the ordinary. Sure, we don't want marking and that is a sign of an issue but that is easily resolved. This is a pretty easy and normal intro situation. I am not at all worried but it will take a little time, effort and knowledge.

I am highly confident that they will be able to live in the house together. It is not a question of if but when. I don't red anything that suggests otherwise.

We just need to keep building their confidence, following the intro process, making positive associations, watching their body language and reactions during all this, and responding accordingly.

So the game plan - Keep playing with the cats in their respective areas and feed either treats or a meal after. Keep making positive associations by the door whether using love (if can be done safely) and if possible using food or treats. Monitor body language so it is positive (relaxed). If you sense there might be an issue distract as needed. If you can get them to look away and avoid a negative encounter it is a positive. Try to limit growling and hissing - we want this to end eventually as it will help build more trust. But maximizing positive encounters, trying to get them to look away from each other (which is a positive sign), tell them it is "ok" in a calm confident voice. Anything to get them relaxed (which is positive). Try to keep them in their respective territories for now until I get back. Just to avoid any negative encounters. Keep watching their body language (tail movements when they are near, staring, etc). If you see staring distract as if a cat looks away and nothing bad happens it is a confidence building positive encounter moment.

I think we should probably hold off on scent swapping for now just because I want to be around for it. To be able to understand the body language, the actions. I don't think it is going to be an issue but just in case there is an issue. A few weeks of confidence building and positive encounters is only a positive that will pay off in the future.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Once I am back we can move onto the next steps and get these cats well on the way to living in harmony. We will get there.

 

[MichMare]

No, there has been no further marking that I am aware of.

In reference to the last post regarding Thursday PM, I meant that Poppy wanted to escape from her room, not from anyone else. She really really really wants to go explore the house again.

There is actually already scent swapping occurring. When I sit in Poppy’s room with her with the door cracked open an inch or two, I pet her, then whoever comes to visit, for however long they choose to sit there. There is zero reaction to this swapping. There is also zero reaction to “leftovers “; if Poppy doesn’t like her canned food or vice-versa, I give it to the others, and no one has ever refused the food the other has nibbled on.

The body language is very relaxed unless Poppy and whomever are literally nose-to- nose at the door; that is when there will almost always be a quick hiss and batting session before both parties flop down to play or just relax on their respective sides of the door. I keep the exchanges to a minimum, and they relax immediately when not in inches of each others’ faces.

As suggested, I will keep doing the door routine.

I was away for 36 hours over the weekend, so I don’t have much to report. Poppy stayed in her guest suite. Everyone visited briefly at the door last night when I returned, but it was the usual nose-to-nose brief hiss / exchange of paws batting, then relaxing on either side of the door until someone grows bored and walks away.

Thanks again for all the help and time responding to these issues.

 

[calicosrspecial]

This sounds really, really good.

Yes, it is understandable that Poppy wants to expand her territory. We just have to get them to not hiss/bat if there are nose to nose BUT I love to hear that nothing really happens and they are relaxed after that. That tells me you are close and all is going to be well.

If you sense hissing/bating is going to happen see if you can distract to avoid it. Anytime they avoid a negative it is a positive. So I would love for them to maybe go towards each other, get distracted and just chose to look away, walk away, etc. Like "I know you, everything is cool".

When I think of scent swapping I tend to get an old shirt or something and get the other cat's scent on it and then have it near when I am feeding, or when they are relaxing or giving love. So they smell the other cat and they are enjoying themselves. Of course, you are getting that at the door. AND since there was marking I don't want the cat to try to mark that shirt (since shirts, towels are things cats do like to go on since it is soft like litter). So maybe for now just keep up with the door program.

When I get back then we'll probably try site swapping where they go in each other's territory. See how they do and then move to getting them in a neutral territory together while enjoying treats or play or something positive. To make a positive association and to have no negative encounters.

You obviously have a lot of experience with cats so trust your instincts. And remember to stay really calm, confident and loving around them. Let them know all is fine so they take that on and feel that towards the other cat.

Keep up the great work. You are definitely doing well. Just keep making positive associations and keeping every encounter as positive as possible and avoiding any negative encounters.